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tech / sci.physics.relativity / Re: [SR] Question

SubjectAuthor
* [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
`* Re: [SR] QuestionMikko
 +- Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
 `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  +* Re: [SR] Questionrotchm
  |+- Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
  |`- Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  +* Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  |+- Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
  |+- Re: [SR] QuestionMikko
  |`* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | +* Re: [SR] QuestionPython
  | |`* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | | `* Re: [SR] QuestionPython
  | |  +- Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
  | |  +* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |  |`* Re: [SR] QuestionPython
  | |  | `- Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |  `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |   `* Re: [SR] QuestionPython
  | |    +- Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
  | |    `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     +* Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  | |     |`* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     | `* Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  | |     |  `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |   +- Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |   `* Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  | |     |    `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |     `* Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  | |     |      +* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |      |+* Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  | |     |      ||`* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |      || `* Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  | |     |      ||  `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |      ||   `* Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  | |     |      ||    `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |      ||     `- Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  | |     |      |`- Re: [SR] QuestionMikko
  | |     |      `* Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
  | |     |       `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |        `* Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
  | |     |         +- Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |         +* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |         |`* Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
  | |     |         | `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |         |  `- Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  | |     |         +* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |     |         |`- Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
  | |     |         `* Re: [SR] QuestionPython
  | |     |          `* Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
  | |     |           `- Re: [SR] QuestionPython
  | |     `* Re: [SR] QuestionPython
  | |      +* Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak
  | |      |`- Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |      `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  | |       `- Re: [SR] QuestionPython
  | `* Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  |  `* Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
  |   `- Re: [SR] QuestionStan Fultoni
  +- Re: [SR] QuestionMikko
  `* Re: [SR] QuestionPython
   +- Re: [SR] QuestionRichard Hachel
   `- Re: [SR] QuestionMaciej Wozniak

Pages:123
Re: [SR] Question

<xlrmliq5EFbv5TwGlk_BZgaLRfM@jntp>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=90210&group=sci.physics.relativity#90210

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Subject: Re: [SR] Question
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From: r.hac...@tiscali.fr (Richard Hachel)
 by: Richard Hachel - Fri, 13 May 2022 20:33 UTC

Le 13/05/2022 à 21:12, Stan Fultoni a écrit :
> Which of your two claims are you now retracting? To remind you, your
> two claims are:
>
> (1) The elapsed proper time along a uniform path (no acceleration) between two
> given
> events ei and ej is sqrt[(ti-tj)^2) - (xi-xj)^2)].
> (2) The elapsed proper time along a path undergoing constant proper acceleration
>
> between two given events equals the elapsed proper time along an unaccelerated
> path between those two events.
>
> Your first claim (1) is true, but your second claim (2) is false. Agreed?

No.

Both are true.

The two improper times are equal, by definition.

But what I am saying again, myself, is that the two proper times, in this
precise case, are also equal to one another.

In both cases, we have:
To²=Tr²+Et²

With Et²=(x/c)².

In the case of a simple Galilean reference frame,
x/c=Vr.Tr/c

In the case of an accelerated repository:
x/c=(1/2)aTr²/c

In both cases, To²=Tr²+Et²

If the improper time is equal (by definition of the problem, and if the
distance is the same (Et1=Et2), then Tr1=Tr2.

R.H.

Re: [SR] Question

<73bbec88-6000-491c-b1e4-89bc0ba8791en@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: [SR] Question
From: fultonis...@gmail.com (Stan Fultoni)
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 by: Stan Fultoni - Fri, 13 May 2022 23:10 UTC

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:34:02 PM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
> > Which of your two claims are you now retracting? To remind you, your
> > two claims are:
> >
> > (1) The elapsed proper time along a uniform path (no acceleration) between two
> > given
> > events ei and ej is sqrt[(ti-tj)^2) - (xi-xj)^2)].
> > (2) The elapsed proper time along a path undergoing constant proper acceleration
> > between two given events equals the elapsed proper time along an unaccelerated
> > path between those two events.
> >
> > Your first claim (1) is true, but your second claim (2) is false. Agreed?
>
> No. Both are true.

But those two claims imply the three relations that produce the contradiction, so
your beliefs are self-contradictory, as explained above.

Re: [SR] Question

<t5nmpa$h3e$1@dont-email.me>

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From: mikko.le...@iki.fi (Mikko)
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Subject: Re: [SR] Question
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 by: Mikko - Sat, 14 May 2022 07:46 UTC

On 2022-05-13 10:10:16 +0000, Richard Hachel said:

> Le 13/05/2022 à 00:36, Stan Fultoni a écrit :
>> On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:07:06 PM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
>>>> It isn't a matter of perception. Your claims amount to the assertion
>>>> that 1 = 0. This is because you say the difference between the sum of
>>>> the first two square roots and the third square root is zero, but it is
>>>> not zero (unless your accelerating path is no accelerating. Your claims
>>>> are therefore self-contradictory. Do you understand this?
>>>
>>> I don't see where you can run into any problems.
>>
>> Again, the problem is that your beliefs imply 1 = 0, as explained in detail
>> in the previous message.
>
> I don't understand this story of the sum of square roots being equal to
> zero. What do you want to talk about?
>
> R.H.

The point is: if one can from what you have said prove that 1 = 0 then
one can from what you have said prove everything, including that
everything you have said is wrong.

Mikko

Re: [SR] Question

<4a0ac9f1-c46a-40db-a121-e2d9361cf289n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: [SR] Question
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 15 May 2022 11:55 UTC

On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 14:34:42 UTC+2, Richard Hachel wrote:
> Le 13/05/2022 à 12:33, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :
> > So did the beliefs of your idiot guru, as explained
> > many times here.
> What are you talking about, Maciej?

Einstein's mumble was not even consistent.

> I am saying that there are, in the currently accepted theory of
> relativity, paradoxes and absurdities.

Currently accepted theory is a bit different
from the 1905 version. They did some improvements
around, making it a bit less absurdic; now it can be
defended. In 1905 it couldn't be.

> No need to add to the fact that there are gurus or visionaries.
> I don't see the point of it.
> Sheep, for sure, that's 99.99% of humanity.
> The enlightened ones, the gurus, they have to be tested. But you have to
> test them scientifically and honestly.

Somehow, the defenders of scientific honesty usually
have no problem with Dono's "odious nazi kapos"
and alike. No. Talking to fanatic scum one has to
descend to its level. A pity, but there is no choice.

Re: [SR] Question

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From: r.hac...@tiscali.fr (Richard Hachel)
 by: Richard Hachel - Sun, 15 May 2022 12:10 UTC

Le 15/05/2022 à 13:55, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :
> On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 14:34:42 UTC+2, Richard Hachel wrote:
>> Le 13/05/2022 à 12:33, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :
>> > So did the beliefs of your idiot guru, as explained
>> > many times here.
>> What are you talking about, Maciej?
>
> Einstein's mumble was not even consistent.

Oui, c'est vrai.

Je le sais.

Je l'ai dit.

Einstein a fait bien plus dévier les idées de Poincaré qu'il ne les a
portées plus en avant.

Mais quand je le dis, tout le monde m'accuse d'être un criminel de
guerre.

R.H.

Re: [SR] Question

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From: r.hac...@tiscali.fr (Richard Hachel)
 by: Richard Hachel - Sun, 15 May 2022 12:14 UTC

Le 15/05/2022 à 13:55, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :

> Currently accepted theory is a bit different
> from the 1905 version. They did some improvements
> around, making it a bit less absurdic; now it can be
> defended. In 1905 it couldn't be.

Bref, ils l'ont édulcorée.

Il fallait la révolutionner.

Seul moi pouvait le faire.

Mais un énorme problème, qui est le narcissisme humain va alors entrer
en scène.

Pas le mien, évident, LOL.

On me signale sans cesse que : "moi, à ta place..."

R.H.

Re: [SR] Question

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From: r.hac...@tiscali.fr (Richard Hachel)
 by: Richard Hachel - Sun, 15 May 2022 12:20 UTC

Le 15/05/2022 à 13:55, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :
>
> Somehow, the defenders of scientific honesty usually
> have no problem with Dono's "odious nazi kapos"
> and alike. No. Talking to fanatic scum one has to
> descend to its level. A pity, but there is no choice.

The terrible thing about this story is that scientific dogma, based on
experimentation, is much more difficult to destroy than religious dogma,
based on imagination.
But sometimes the two dogmas come together.
In that they have "false interpretations" or preconceived ideas said a
priori.
An experiment will then prove them, as one can prove that an addition is a
multiplication.

Just say that 0+0=0*0.

Or that 2+2=2*2.

The scientific monkey will find in these proofs a universal truth.

R.H.

Re: [SR] Question

<e99f2a6e-f5d7-4bb5-bb28-c46d3ca42956n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: [SR] Question
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 15 May 2022 12:53 UTC

On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 14:14:54 UTC+2, Richard Hachel wrote:
> Le 15/05/2022 à 13:55, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :
> > Currently accepted theory is a bit different
> > from the 1905 version. They did some improvements
> > around, making it a bit less absurdic; now it can be
> > defended. In 1905 it couldn't be.
> Bref, ils l'ont édulcorée.
>
> Il fallait la révolutionner.
>
> Seul moi pouvait le faire.

Qui est le narcissisme humain; but no way un énorme problème.

Re: [SR] Question

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Subject: Re: [SR] Question
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 15 May 2022 12:56 UTC

On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 14:20:06 UTC+2, Richard Hachel wrote:
> Le 15/05/2022 à 13:55, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :
> >
> > Somehow, the defenders of scientific honesty usually
> > have no problem with Dono's "odious nazi kapos"
> > and alike. No. Talking to fanatic scum one has to
> > descend to its level. A pity, but there is no choice.
> The terrible thing about this story is that scientific dogma, based on
> experimentation,

Real clocks of real GPS keep measuring
t'=t, just like all serious clocks always did. No
single fucken experiment is supporting your
insane screams that they're improper.
Sorry.

Re: [SR] Question

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 by: Python - Sun, 15 May 2022 13:17 UTC

Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 14:34:42 UTC+2, Richard Hachel wrote:
>> Le 13/05/2022 à 12:33, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :
>>> So did the beliefs of your idiot guru, as explained
>>> many times here.
>> What are you talking about, Maciej?
>
> Einstein's mumble was not even consistent.

Oh, a new one. How is Einstein's 1905 paper non consistent, Maciej?

>> I am saying that there are, in the currently accepted theory of
>> relativity, paradoxes and absurdities.
>
> Currently accepted theory is a bit different
> from the 1905 version. They did some improvements
> around, making it a bit less absurdic; now it can be
> defended. In 1905 it couldn't be.

Oh, a new one. How come it "can be defended" now (thank you, my
King) and couldn't be then as the modern theory end up with
EXACTLY the same set of equations and the same meanings for
coordinates.

"One of greatest logicians Humanity ever had" couldn't make
such claims without justification, right?

>> No need to add to the fact that there are gurus or visionaries.
>> I don't see the point of it.
>> Sheep, for sure, that's 99.99% of humanity.
>> The enlightened ones, the gurus, they have to be tested. But you have to
>> test them scientifically and honestly.
>
> Somehow, the defenders of scientific honesty usually
> have no problem with Dono's "odious nazi kapos"
> and alike. No. Talking to fanatic scum one has to
> descend to its level. A pity, but there is no choice.

A lot of people have issues with Dono's posts here.
Not especially the "nazi kapos" ones, as people like
Hertz do not deserve consideration. But all the blunders
he made in Relativity, he has a very peculiar vision
of it.

Re: [SR] Question

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From: r.hac...@tiscali.fr (Richard Hachel)
 by: Richard Hachel - Sun, 15 May 2022 13:27 UTC

Le 15/05/2022 à 14:53, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :
> On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 14:14:54 UTC+2, Richard Hachel wrote:
>> Le 15/05/2022 à 13:55, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :
>> > Currently accepted theory is a bit different
>> > from the 1905 version. They did some improvements
>> > around, making it a bit less absurdic; now it can be
>> > defended. In 1905 it couldn't be.
>> Bref, ils l'ont édulcorée.
>>
>> Il fallait la révolutionner.
>>
>> Seul moi pouvait le faire.
>
> Qui est le narcissisme humain; but no way un énorme problème.

Ce n'est pas du narcissisme, mais de la tristesse.

R.H.

Re: [SR] Question

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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sun, 15 May 2022 13:42 UTC

On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 15:17:36 UTC+2, Python wrote:
> Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> > On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 14:34:42 UTC+2, Richard Hachel wrote:
> >> Le 13/05/2022 à 12:33, Maciej Wozniak a écrit :
> >>> So did the beliefs of your idiot guru, as explained
> >>> many times here.
> >> What are you talking about, Maciej?
> >
> > Einstein's mumble was not even consistent.
> Oh, a new one. How is Einstein's 1905 paper non consistent, Maciej?

Oh, stinker Python is opening its muzzle again,
and trying to pretend he knows something.
Tell me, poor stinker, what is your definition of
a "theory" in the terms of Peano arithmetic?
See: if a theorem is going to be a part of a theory,
it has to be formulable in the language of the
theory. Do you get it? Or are you too stupid even for
that, poor stinker?

No, it's not a new one at all.

\
> >> I am saying that there are, in the currently accepted theory of
> >> relativity, paradoxes and absurdities.
> >
> > Currently accepted theory is a bit different
> > from the 1905 version. They did some improvements
> > around, making it a bit less absurdic; now it can be
> > defended. In 1905 it couldn't be.
> Oh, a new one. How come it "can be defended" now (thank you, my
> King) and couldn't be then as the modern theory end up with
> EXACTLY the same set of equations and the same meanings for
> coordinates.

Count how many times your fellow stinkers
defending your moronic Shit are invoking
the definition of second here. The one from 1968,
AFAIR.
Were they invoking it also in 1905, poor stinker?
Not likely... Without 1968 definition The Shit has
exactly no measurement support. And with the
1905 definition it's nothing but some inconsistent
mumble of an insane crazie.

Re: [SR] Question

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 by: Python - Sun, 15 May 2022 14:09 UTC

Maciej Wozniak wrote:
....
> Count how many times your fellow stinkers
> defending your moronic Shit are invoking
> the definition of second here. The one from 1968,
> AFAIR.
> Were they invoking it also in 1905, poor stinker?
> Not likely... Without 1968 definition The Shit has
> exactly no measurement support. And with the
> 1905 definition it's nothing but some inconsistent
> mumble of an insane crazie.
>

This is plain wrong.

Re: [SR] Question

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Subject: Re: [SR] Question
From: fultonis...@gmail.com (Stan Fultoni)
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 by: Stan Fultoni - Sun, 15 May 2022 15:34 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 2:29:00 AM UTC-7, Richard Hachel wrote:
> > You contradict yourself. You said
> > (1) The elapsed proper time along a uniform path (no acceleration) between two
> > given events ei and ej is sqrt[(ti-tj)^2) - (xi-xj)^2)].
>
> I didn't say that exactly.

That's a lie. Remember, I said "Your first claim (1) is true, but your second claim (2) is false. Agreed?", and you replied:

> No. Both are true.

So, you are now retracting that statement, and you now agree that what you have been claiming up to today has been self-contradictory, and you are now changing your claim in an attempt to avoid the self-contradiction. That's fine. I accept your sincere thanks for pointing out your error.

Your new claim is that the elapsed proper time along a uniform path (no acceleration) between two given events ei and ej is NOT given by sqrt[(ti-tj)^2) - (xi-xj)^2)]. This represents important progress, because we see now that your disagreement with science has nothing to do with acceleration. You disagree with science on the elapsed proper time for uniform unaccelerated paths.

So, what do you now claim is the elapsed proper time along a uniform, unaccelerated, time-like path from a specified event with coordinates xi,ti to another specified event xj,tj in terms of any given system of inertial coordinates ?

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