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tech / sci.physics.relativity / Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

SubjectAuthor
* Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electThomas Heger
+* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
|+* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein'sOdd Bodkin
||+- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
||`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
|| +* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein'sOdd Bodkin
|| |`- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
|| +- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein'sOdd Bodkin
|| `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
||  +- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRussell Eaton
||  `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRussell Eaton
||   +* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On theTom Roberts
||   |+- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
||   |`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecKen Seto
||   | +* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
||   | |`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On theTom Roberts
||   | | +* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
||   | | |`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On theTom Roberts
||   | | | +* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
||   | | | |`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On theTom Roberts
||   | | | | +- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
||   | | | | `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
||   | | | +- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
||   | | | `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies J. J. Lodder
||   | | |  +- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics ofMaciej Wozniak
||   | | |  `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics ofRichD
||   | | |   `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies J. J. Lodder
||   | | |    `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies Mikko
||   | | |     `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies J. J. Lodder
||   | | |      +* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics ofMaciej Wozniak
||   | | |      |`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies J. J. Lodder
||   | | |      | `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics ofMaciej Wozniak
||   | | |      `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies Mikko
||   | | |       `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies J. J. Lodder
||   | | `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
||   | `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
||   +* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
||   |`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On thewhodat
||   | `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
||   |  +- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On thewhodat
||   |  `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elThomas Heger
||   +* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichD
||   |`- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecKen Seto
||   `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecHannu Poropudas
||    `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecHannu Poropudas
|`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecJanPB
| `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On theJonas Tanaka
+- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On theSylvia Else
+* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On thePython
|`- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
+* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein'sOdd Bodkin
|+- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
|`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elThomas Heger
| +* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein'sOdd Bodkin
| |`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elThomas Heger
| | `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein'sOdd Bodkin
| |  `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein'sOdd Bodkin
| |   +* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
| |   |`- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein'sOdd Bodkin
| |   `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elThomas Heger
| |    `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein'sOdd Bodkin
| |     +- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On theReinhardt Behm
| |     `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elThomas Heger
| `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On thePython
|  +- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
|  `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
+* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
|+* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
||`- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecRichard Hertz
|`- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein'sOdd Bodkin
+* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecKen Seto
|+- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On theColin Ohba
|`- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecKen Seto
+- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electThe Starmaker
`* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecJanPB
 +- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecMaciej Wozniak
 +- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On theJob Chikamatsu
 `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elThomas Heger
  `* Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elecJanPB
   `- Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elThomas Heger

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Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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Subject: Re:_Concepts_about_time_in_Einstein's_‚On_the_elec
_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Fri, 20 May 2022 16:05 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:11:24 PM UTC-3, seto...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:43:59 AM UTC-4, tjrob137 wrote:
> > On 5/20/22 6:53 AM, Russell Eaton wrote:
> > > Time does not exist. [...]
> >
> > Of course not! Time is part of the MODEL, not the world. Models, of
> > course, are how we humans understand and learn about the world we inhabit.
> Absolute time exists. The GPS uses absolute time to synch the GPS clock with the ground clock.
> This is achieved by adding 4.1617 transitions of Cs 133 radiation to the GPS second as follows:
> A ground clock second is defined by 9,192,631,770 transitions (periods) of the Cs 133 atom
> A GPS second is defined by 9,192,631,774.1617 transitions (periods) of the Cs 133 atom.
> The passage of 9,192,631,774.1617 transitions on the GPS clock represents the same amount of absolute time as the passage of 9,192,631,770 periods on the ground clock.This makes the GPS in synch with the ground clock in terms of absolute time.

To satisfy the needs of the imbecile relativists, you have to add the 3D coordinates of the location of the atomic clock, referred to the
point-like center of the Solar System, up to picometers accuracy. Then, you have to provide the transform of such coordinates with
respect to the point-like reference within the black hole at the center of our galaxy. Then, you have to provide the transform of such coordinates with respect to the point-like reference at the 3D coordinates of mass center of the galaxy cluster that contains the Milky
Way. Then, .......

Oh, my! It never ends. It's impossible to satisfy relativists. Better CANCEL ALL OF THEM.

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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_elec_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
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From: tjrobert...@sbcglobal.net (Tom Roberts)
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 by: Tom Roberts - Fri, 20 May 2022 17:17 UTC

On 5/20/22 11:31 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> On Friday, 20 May 2022 at 17:11:24 UTC+2, seto...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:43:59 AM UTC-4, tjrob137 wrote:
>>> On 5/20/22 6:53 AM, Russell Eaton wrote:
>>>> Time does not exist. [...]
>>> Of course not! Time is part of the MODEL, not the world. Models, of
>>> course, are how we humans understand and learn about the world we inhabit.
>> Absolute time exists.
>
> Not just one. There is TAI, GPS, UTC, zone times...
> though the differences ale slight, they are different.

And NONE of them are valid on the moon, not to mention Jupiter or the
Andromeda galaxy. So the claim "absolute" is just plain wrong.

Tom Roberts

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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Subject: Re:_Concepts_about_time_in_Einstein's_‚On_the_elec
_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Fri, 20 May 2022 17:27 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 2:17:09 PM UTC-3, tjrob137 wrote:
> On 5/20/22 11:31 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:

<snip>

> > Not just one. There is TAI, GPS, UTC, zone times...
> > though the differences ale slight, they are different.

> And NONE of them are valid on the moon, not to mention Jupiter or the
> Andromeda galaxy. So the claim "absolute" is just plain wrong.
>
> Tom Roberts

Putting aside the stupidity of trying to mess with pico and femtoseconds to dictate TIME, and going back to SECONDS,
I don't see any problem in the normalization of ABSOLUTE SOLAR SYSTEM TIME, giving the proper conversion formulae that
make such concept to work in our neighborhood.

After all, to develop a worldwide standard for time in the XIX century took 30 years of discussions, plus France disputing England.

By 1911, the problem was settled (France surrendered).

This normalization effort COULD be done at a Solar System level, even when I don't see the advantages of such endeavor.

Better use Earth's UTC as a reference for everything.

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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From: tjrobert...@sbcglobal.net (Tom Roberts)
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 by: Tom Roberts - Fri, 20 May 2022 18:08 UTC

On 5/20/22 1:27 PM, Richard Hertz wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 2:17:09 PM UTC-3, tjrob137 wrote:
>> On 5/20/22 11:31 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> Not just one. There is TAI, GPS, UTC, zone times... though the
>>> differences ale slight, they are different.
>
>> And NONE of them are valid on the moon, not to mention Jupiter or
>> the Andromeda galaxy. So the claim "absolute" is just plain wrong.
>>
>> Tom Roberts
>
> Putting aside the stupidity of trying to mess with pico and
> femtoseconds to dictate TIME, and going back to SECONDS, I don't see
> any problem in the normalization of ABSOLUTE SOLAR SYSTEM TIME,
> giving the proper conversion formulae that make such concept to work
> in our neighborhood.
>
> After all, to develop a worldwide standard for time in the XIX
> century took 30 years of discussions, plus France disputing England.
>
> By 1911, the problem was settled (France surrendered).
>
> This normalization effort COULD be done at a Solar System level, even
> when I don't see the advantages of such endeavor.
>
> Better use Earth's UTC as a reference for everything.

It's easy to SAY that, but it's not so easy to DO that.

Ask yourself: how could I (you) construct a clock on the moon that
displays UTC? Be sure your clock will still display properly when all
radio links to earth are down, and your clock will work on the far side
of the moon (i.e. without any radio link to earth).

Tom Roberts

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

<jeq3tgFo0gU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: whod...@void.nowgre.com (whodat)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re:_Concepts_about_time_in_Einstein's_‚On_the
_elec_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 13:10:49 -0500
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 by: whodat - Fri, 20 May 2022 18:10 UTC

On 5/20/2022 9:50 AM, Richard Hertz wrote:

<snip>

> The universe itself ROTATES.

What are you comparing the universe to. What is your test to make this
determination?

> Gravity is a not understood consequences of COSMIC ROTATION.

Gotta blame gravity on something, but a statement without any
demonstrable basis leaves us nowhere. Don't get me wrong, I'd love
to be able to agree with you, but it needs something more to make
it fit the body of knowledge we already accept, in short, the stuff
that actually works.

> This poorly understood concept, along with
> electrical charges, creates our reality at any level of perception,
> but it's barely studied.

Its hard to tell how much it is studied but that only means that
not very much is being published. The amount that's being published
correlates to the amount of success that has been achieved, which
clearly is little to none.

Have you ever considered the possibility that there are things that
are beyond the ability of humans to understand? I'm not suggesting
that's so, but we're sure having one hell of a time with several
features of nature that are critical to better understanding what's
what, and this is a possibility.

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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Subject: Re:_Concepts_about_time_in_Einstein's_‚On_the_elec
_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
Injection-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 18:21:01 +0000
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 by: Richard Hertz - Fri, 20 May 2022 18:21 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 3:08:19 PM UTC-3, tjrob137 wrote:
> On 5/20/22 1:27 PM, Richard Hertz wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 2:17:09 PM UTC-3, tjrob137 wrote:
> >> On 5/20/22 11:31 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>> Not just one. There is TAI, GPS, UTC, zone times... though the
> >>> differences ale slight, they are different.
> >
> >> And NONE of them are valid on the moon, not to mention Jupiter or
> >> the Andromeda galaxy. So the claim "absolute" is just plain wrong.
> >>
> >> Tom Roberts
> >
> > Putting aside the stupidity of trying to mess with pico and
> > femtoseconds to dictate TIME, and going back to SECONDS, I don't see
> > any problem in the normalization of ABSOLUTE SOLAR SYSTEM TIME,
> > giving the proper conversion formulae that make such concept to work
> > in our neighborhood.
> >
> > After all, to develop a worldwide standard for time in the XIX
> > century took 30 years of discussions, plus France disputing England.
> >
> > By 1911, the problem was settled (France surrendered).
> >
> > This normalization effort COULD be done at a Solar System level, even
> > when I don't see the advantages of such endeavor.
> >
> > Better use Earth's UTC as a reference for everything.
> It's easy to SAY that, but it's not so easy to DO that.
>
> Ask yourself: how could I (you) construct a clock on the moon that
> displays UTC? Be sure your clock will still display properly when all
> radio links to earth are down, and your clock will work on the far side
> of the moon (i.e. without any radio link to earth).
>
> Tom Roberts

I was careful enough to comment about accuracy down to 1 SECOND, not lower.

The complex mathematical description of the motion of the Moon around Earth is, as of today, incredibly accurate.

I don't see any problem incorporating such body of knowledge into a computer, which correctly may calculate the required
transformations of Earth's UTC into the entire surface of the Moon, or at any CLOSE planet.

After all, as TIME IS WHAT YOUR CLOCK SHOWS (Einstein's famous 1905 gaffe), I don't see any problem implementing this concept.

One thing is relativistic time dilation (or whatever), and another thing is a LINEAR FLOW OF TIME.

Who said that time dictated by a clock has to have a linear correlation with other located 300,000 Km far away?

And about scheduling at both ends, computers can solve such non-linearity and have both ends IN SYNC.

This is my humble opinion. I don't affirm that I'm the bearer of ultimate truth.

I think as an engineer, not as a philosopher.

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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Subject: Re:_Concepts_about_time_in_Einstein's_‚On_the_elec
_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
Injection-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 18:23:07 +0000
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Fri, 20 May 2022 18:23 UTC

On Friday, 20 May 2022 at 20:08:19 UTC+2, tjrob137 wrote:
> On 5/20/22 1:27 PM, Richard Hertz wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 2:17:09 PM UTC-3, tjrob137 wrote:
> >> On 5/20/22 11:31 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>> Not just one. There is TAI, GPS, UTC, zone times... though the
> >>> differences ale slight, they are different.
> >
> >> And NONE of them are valid on the moon, not to mention Jupiter or
> >> the Andromeda galaxy. So the claim "absolute" is just plain wrong.
> >>
> >> Tom Roberts
> >
> > Putting aside the stupidity of trying to mess with pico and
> > femtoseconds to dictate TIME, and going back to SECONDS, I don't see
> > any problem in the normalization of ABSOLUTE SOLAR SYSTEM TIME,
> > giving the proper conversion formulae that make such concept to work
> > in our neighborhood.
> >
> > After all, to develop a worldwide standard for time in the XIX
> > century took 30 years of discussions, plus France disputing England.
> >
> > By 1911, the problem was settled (France surrendered).
> >
> > This normalization effort COULD be done at a Solar System level, even
> > when I don't see the advantages of such endeavor.
> >
> > Better use Earth's UTC as a reference for everything.
> It's easy to SAY that, but it's not so easy to DO that.

Does an idiot physicist only consider easy things?

> Ask yourself: how could I (you) construct a clock on the moon that
> displays UTC?

Smartly.

> Be sure your clock will still display properly when all
> radio links to earth are down, and your clock will work on the far side
> of the moon (i.e. without any radio link to earth).

And I need to be sure of that, because....?

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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Subject: Re:_Concepts_about_time_in_Einstein's_‚On_the_elec
_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
Injection-Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 18:26:59 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: Maciej Wozniak - Fri, 20 May 2022 18:26 UTC

On Friday, 20 May 2022 at 19:17:09 UTC+2, tjrob137 wrote:
> On 5/20/22 11:31 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> > On Friday, 20 May 2022 at 17:11:24 UTC+2, seto...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 10:43:59 AM UTC-4, tjrob137 wrote:
> >>> On 5/20/22 6:53 AM, Russell Eaton wrote:
> >>>> Time does not exist. [...]
> >>> Of course not! Time is part of the MODEL, not the world. Models, of
> >>> course, are how we humans understand and learn about the world we inhabit.
> >> Absolute time exists.
> >
> > Not just one. There is TAI, GPS, UTC, zone times...
> > though the differences ale slight, they are different.
> And NONE of them are valid on the moon, not to mention Jupiter or the
> Andromeda galaxy. So the claim "absolute" is just plain wrong.

They're valid wherever human observers are involved, sorry.

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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Subject: Re:_Concepts_about_time_in_Einstein's_‚On_the_elec
_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Fri, 20 May 2022 18:36 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 3:11:00 PM UTC-3, whodat wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 9:50 AM, Richard Hertz wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > The universe itself ROTATES.
>
> What are you comparing the universe to. What is your test to make this
> determination?
> > Gravity is a not understood consequences of COSMIC ROTATION.
> Gotta blame gravity on something, but a statement without any
> demonstrable basis leaves us nowhere. Don't get me wrong, I'd love
> to be able to agree with you, but it needs something more to make
> it fit the body of knowledge we already accept, in short, the stuff
> that actually works.
> > This poorly understood concept, along with
> > electrical charges, creates our reality at any level of perception,
> > but it's barely studied.
> Its hard to tell how much it is studied but that only means that
> not very much is being published. The amount that's being published
> correlates to the amount of success that has been achieved, which
> clearly is little to none.
>
> Have you ever considered the possibility that there are things that
> are beyond the ability of humans to understand? I'm not suggesting
> that's so, but we're sure having one hell of a time with several
> features of nature that are critical to better understanding what's
> what, and this is a possibility.

Every single book on astronomy, astrophysics or cosmology that I've read present evidence of universal rotation as
a NATURAL BEHAVIOR, as observed everywhere and for millennials.

I have this book open in one tab at my computer for more than 10 days, and I reading carefully its content (more than 800 pages):

GALAXY FORMATION AND EVOLUTION
HOUJUN MO
University of Massachusetts
FRANK VAN DEN BOSCH
Yale University
SIMON WHITE
Max Planch Institute for Astrophysics

HOUJUN MO is Professor of Astrophysics at the University of Massachusetts. He is known for
his work on the formation and clustering of galaxies and their dark matter halos.

FRANK VAN DEN BOSCH is Assistant Professor at Yale University, and is known for his
studies of the formation, dynamics, and clustering of galaxies.

SIMON WHITE is Director at the Max Planck Institute for Astrophysics in Garching. He is
one of the originators of the modern theory of galaxy formation and has received numerous
international prizes and honors.

Jointly and separately the authors have published almost 500 papers in the refereed professional
literature, most of them on topics related to the subject of this book.

This is part of Chapter 8 (rotation everywhere)

8 Formation and Evolution of Gaseous Halos 366
8.1 Basic Fluid Dynamics and Radiative Processes 366
8.1.1 Basic Equations 366
8.1.2 Compton Cooling 367
8.1.3 Radiative Cooling 367
8.1.4 Photoionization Heating 369
8.2 Hydrostatic Equilibrium 371
8.2.1 Gas Density Profile 371
8.2.2 Convective Instability 373
8.2.3 Virial Theorem Applied to a Gaseous Halo 374
8.3 The Formation of Hot Gaseous Halos 376
8.3.1 Accretion Shocks 376
8.3.2 Self-Similar Collapse of Collisional Gas 379
8.3.3 The Impact of a Collisionless Component 383
8.3.4 More General Models of Spherical Collapse 384
8.4 Radiative Cooling in Gaseous Halos 385
8.4.1 Radiative Cooling Time Scales for Uniform Clouds 385
8.4.2 Evolution of the Cooling Radius 387
8.4.3 Self-Similar Cooling Waves 388
8.4.4 Spherical Collapse with Cooling 390
8.5 Thermal and Hydrodynamical Instabilities of Cooling Gas 393
8.5.1 Thermal Instability 393
8.5.2 Hydrodynamical Instabilities 396
8.5.3 Heat Conduction 397
8.6 Evolution of Gaseous Halos with Energy Sources 398
8.6.1 Blast Waves 399
8.6.2 Winds and Wind-Driven Bubbles 404
8.6.3 Supernova Feedback and Galaxy Formation 406
8.7 Results from Numerical Simulations 408
8.7.1 Three-Dimensional Collapse without Radiative Cooling 408
8.7.2 Three-Dimensional Collapse with Radiative

This is part of Chapter 9 (rotation is everywhere)

9 Star Formation in Galaxies 417
9.1 Giant Molecular Clouds: The Sites of Star Formation 418
9.1.1 Observed Properties 418
9.1.2 Dynamical State 419
9.2 The Formation of Giant Molecular Clouds 421
9.2.1 The Formation of Molecular Hydrogen 421
9.2.2 Cloud Formation 422
9.3 What Controls the Star-Formation Efficiency 425
9.3.1 Magnetic Fields 425
9.3.2 Supersonic Turbulence 426
9.3.3 Self-Regulation 428
9.4 The Formation of Individual Stars 429
9.4.1 The Formation of Low-Mass Stars 429
9.4.2 The Formation of Massive Stars 432
9.5 Empirical Star-Formation Laws 433
9.5.1 The Kennicutt–Schmidt Law 434
9.5.2 Local Star-Formation Laws 436
9.5.3 Star-Formation Thresholds 438
9.6 The Initial Mass Function 440
9.6.1 Observational Constraints 441
9.6.2 Theoretical Models 443
9.7 The Formation of Population III Stars

****************************

I INVITE YOU TO BUY IT AND READ IT. It's material for post-graduate courses on the subject, with lot of math supporting assertions.

Of course, THEIR ASSERTIONS. I choose what I do accept or not. I don't borrow knowledge. I borrow know-how, which is far more
difficult to absorb.

I'm not like Bodkin, the McGraw-Hill parrot. I think critically by myself, with the help of multiple sources of info.

When I'm bored with that, I come here to write something (not too serious, of course. This is not the place for that.)

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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 by: whodat - Fri, 20 May 2022 19:19 UTC

On 5/20/2022 1:36 PM, Richard Hertz wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 3:11:00 PM UTC-3, whodat wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 9:50 AM, Richard Hertz wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> The universe itself ROTATES.
>>
>> What are you comparing the universe to. What is your test to make this
>> determination?

<snip>

> Every single book on astronomy, astrophysics or cosmology that I've read present evidence of universal rotation as
> a NATURAL BEHAVIOR, as observed everywhere and for millennials.

<snip>

I get your point but you didn't answer my question. It doesn't matter
what all the books say, as far as I know none of them has a test for
determining whether the entire universe is rotating.

It probably is, but a test to assure us of that is still wanting.

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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From: tjrobert...@sbcglobal.net (Tom Roberts)
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 by: Tom Roberts - Fri, 20 May 2022 20:18 UTC

On 5/20/22 2:21 PM, Richard Hertz wrote:
> The complex mathematical description of the motion of the Moon around
> Earth is, as of today, incredibly accurate.
>
> I don't see any problem incorporating such body of knowledge into a
> computer, which correctly may calculate the required transformations
> of Earth's UTC into the entire surface of the Moon, or at any CLOSE
> planet.

But if you used that as a "clock", none of the laws of physics in
textbooks would be correct -- because those laws all use local time
(i.e. based on nearby clocks using standard seconds).

> After all, as TIME IS WHAT YOUR CLOCK SHOWS

But your computer display IS NOT A CLOCK, it is a repeater of UTC.

[There are many meanings of "clock", beware of puns.]

If all you care about is accuracy at the level of 1 second or so, none
of this matters for durations less than a few years. But if you want to
measure atomic spectra, or any other time-based measurement at the part
per billion level, you need to understand what physicists mean by
"clock", and why the second is defined as it is. This includes accepting
that clocks at different gravitational potentials, or moving relative to
each other, will not remain in sync.

Tom Roberts

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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Subject: Re:_Concepts_about_time_in_Einstein's_‚On_the_elec
_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
From: hertz...@gmail.com (Richard Hertz)
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 by: Richard Hertz - Fri, 20 May 2022 20:40 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 5:18:13 PM UTC-3, tjrob137 wrote:
> On 5/20/22 2:21 PM, Richard Hertz wrote:
> > The complex mathematical description of the motion of the Moon around
> > Earth is, as of today, incredibly accurate.
> >
> > I don't see any problem incorporating such body of knowledge into a
> > computer, which correctly may calculate the required transformations
> > of Earth's UTC into the entire surface of the Moon, or at any CLOSE
> > planet.
> But if you used that as a "clock", none of the laws of physics in
> textbooks would be correct -- because those laws all use local time
> (i.e. based on nearby clocks using standard seconds).
> > After all, as TIME IS WHAT YOUR CLOCK SHOWS
> But your computer display IS NOT A CLOCK, it is a repeater of UTC.
>
> [There are many meanings of "clock", beware of puns.]
>
> If all you care about is accuracy at the level of 1 second or so, none
> of this matters for durations less than a few years. But if you want to
> measure atomic spectra, or any other time-based measurement at the part
> per billion level, you need to understand what physicists mean by
> "clock", and why the second is defined as it is. This includes accepting
> that clocks at different gravitational potentials, or moving relative to
> each other, will not remain in sync.
>
> Tom Roberts
Thanks for your reply.

Regarding measures of time duration lower than 1 second, even at femtoseconds range, I perfectly can imagine
a layered structure of time:

Global (at the Solar System): for coordinated time above 1 second mark, up to years (15 digits, if needed).
Local (within the context of experiments at quantum level): Floating local time mark, down to the level of attoseconds, if you want.

Your universal time for whatever needed would be a composite value: SOLAR_TIME::LOCAL_TIME.

Of course, mechanisms to implement synchronization at 1 second level should be implemented in SOLAR_TIME clocks.

Then, you can project UTC time within the boundaries of the Solar System, without disrupting the established body of knowledge.

It's more a job for a body of standard committees than anything else. Like ISO, ITU, BIMP, etc., NORMALIZING this concept for every place.

I'm sure that discrepancies between experiments that involve places at different celestial bodies can be accommodated for time
durations as shown in both SOLAR_TIME::LOCAL_TIME marks (maybe introducing a third mediating layer between Solar and Local,
that works as a buffer memory for excess in LOCAL_TIME).

Such thing, used only in a scientific environment, would prevent the corruption of the concept of "time duration" for other activities.

But, I'm afraid I'm going too far with my imagination. At any case, what I wrote is consistent and possible IMHO.

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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Subject: Re:_Concepts_about_time_in_Einstein's_‚On_the_elec
_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Fri, 20 May 2022 21:16 UTC

On Friday, 20 May 2022 at 22:18:13 UTC+2, tjrob137 wrote:
> On 5/20/22 2:21 PM, Richard Hertz wrote:
> > The complex mathematical description of the motion of the Moon around
> > Earth is, as of today, incredibly accurate.
> >
> > I don't see any problem incorporating such body of knowledge into a
> > computer, which correctly may calculate the required transformations
> > of Earth's UTC into the entire surface of the Moon, or at any CLOSE
> > planet.
> But if you used that as a "clock", none of the laws of physics in
> textbooks would be correct

Too bad for your moronic laws of physics. Well, of course
you imagine we have to abandon the clocks we're using
when they don't fit your precious little formulas... a mistake
of yours.

> (i.e. based on nearby clocks using standard seconds).

Take your "clocks using standard second" and put them
straight into your dumb, fanatic ass. They're useless and
they're not going to be used. Common sense was warning
your idiot guru.

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

<1ps9y8f.vzt5oy1aohlr1N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 23:42:44 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Fri, 20 May 2022 21:42 UTC

Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On 5/20/22 1:27 PM, Richard Hertz wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 2:17:09 PM UTC-3, tjrob137 wrote:
> >> On 5/20/22 11:31 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>> Not just one. There is TAI, GPS, UTC, zone times... though the
> >>> differences ale slight, they are different.
> >
> >> And NONE of them are valid on the moon, not to mention Jupiter or
> >> the Andromeda galaxy. So the claim "absolute" is just plain wrong.
> >>
> >> Tom Roberts
> >
> > Putting aside the stupidity of trying to mess with pico and
> > femtoseconds to dictate TIME, and going back to SECONDS, I don't see
> > any problem in the normalization of ABSOLUTE SOLAR SYSTEM TIME,
> > giving the proper conversion formulae that make such concept to work
> > in our neighborhood.
> >
> > After all, to develop a worldwide standard for time in the XIX
> > century took 30 years of discussions, plus France disputing England.
> >
> > By 1911, the problem was settled (France surrendered).
> >
> > This normalization effort COULD be done at a Solar System level, even
> > when I don't see the advantages of such endeavor.
> >
> > Better use Earth's UTC as a reference for everything.
>
> It's easy to SAY that, but it's not so easy to DO that.
>
> Ask yourself: how could I (you) construct a clock on the moon that
> displays UTC? Be sure your clock will still display properly when all
> radio links to earth are down, and your clock will work on the far side
> of the moon (i.e. without any radio link to earth).

The fully relativistic time scale for the solar system
that is used for calculating motions of planets, probes and so on
is TCB. (temps coordinée barycentrique)
or Barycentric Coordinate Time. [1]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycentric_Coordinate_Time>

It is the time of a hypothetical clock
that is comoving with the barycentre of the solar system,
but 'infinitely far' removed from it.
So in practice outside of the potential wells of the solar system.

TCB runs about half a second per year faster than TAI.
(yes, it really is a -huge- effect)
In practice it is of course computed
by applying appropriate corrections to TAI.

Hypothetical atomic clocks in other places in the solar system
can be related to each other or to clocks on Earth
by using TCB as an intermediate.
This is no different in principle than comparing atomic clocks
at different locations on Earth using TAI.

What is needed for the future,
to increase the precision of solar system measurements,
is flying an interplanetary mission
with atomic clocks on board, preferably far out.

Jan

[1] TCB is the time component of the relativity-compliant
barycentric celestial reference system (BCRS)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycentric_and_geocentric_celestial_reference_systems>

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Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of
moving bodies '
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Sat, 21 May 2022 04:27 UTC

On Friday, 20 May 2022 at 23:42:47 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Tom Roberts <tjrobe...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > On 5/20/22 1:27 PM, Richard Hertz wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 2:17:09 PM UTC-3, tjrob137 wrote:
> > >> On 5/20/22 11:31 AM, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > >>> Not just one. There is TAI, GPS, UTC, zone times... though the
> > >>> differences ale slight, they are different.
> > >
> > >> And NONE of them are valid on the moon, not to mention Jupiter or
> > >> the Andromeda galaxy. So the claim "absolute" is just plain wrong.
> > >>
> > >> Tom Roberts
> > >
> > > Putting aside the stupidity of trying to mess with pico and
> > > femtoseconds to dictate TIME, and going back to SECONDS, I don't see
> > > any problem in the normalization of ABSOLUTE SOLAR SYSTEM TIME,
> > > giving the proper conversion formulae that make such concept to work
> > > in our neighborhood.
> > >
> > > After all, to develop a worldwide standard for time in the XIX
> > > century took 30 years of discussions, plus France disputing England.
> > >
> > > By 1911, the problem was settled (France surrendered).
> > >
> > > This normalization effort COULD be done at a Solar System level, even
> > > when I don't see the advantages of such endeavor.
> > >
> > > Better use Earth's UTC as a reference for everything.
> >
> > It's easy to SAY that, but it's not so easy to DO that.
> >
> > Ask yourself: how could I (you) construct a clock on the moon that
> > displays UTC? Be sure your clock will still display properly when all
> > radio links to earth are down, and your clock will work on the far side
> > of the moon (i.e. without any radio link to earth).
> The fully relativistic time scale for the solar system

Relativistic time scale is not for the solar system.
It is different for every fucking muon in the solar system.
And you're a very, very, very impudent liar, as expected
from a relativistic stinker.

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the electrodynamics of moving bodies '

<jerkktF9cabU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: ttt_...@web.de (Thomas Heger)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the el
ectrodynamics of moving bodies '
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 10:02:32 +0200
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 by: Thomas Heger - Sat, 21 May 2022 08:02 UTC

Am 19.05.2022 um 11:09 schrieb JanPB:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 10:40:10 PM UTC-7, Thomas Heger wrote:
>> Am 01.05.2022 um 04:14 schrieb JanPB:
>>> On Friday, April 29, 2022 at 10:16:09 PM UTC-7, Thomas Heger wrote:
>>>> Hi NG
>>>>
>>>> Einstein based his theory, commonly called 'SRT', on a strange concept
>>>> about time.
>>>>
>>>> He wrote, that time would be based on synchronization of clocks.
>>>
>>> No, this is incorrect. It's possible, in fact, to state special relativity without
>>> ever defining clock synchronisation.
>>>
>> SRT and Einstein's 'On the electrodynamics of moving bodies' are two
>> different things.
>
> No, they are the same.

No

Relativity is actually a trivial idea and dates back at least to Galileo.

Therefore: The idea, that Einstein had invented relativity is not even
funny.

Special relativity in connection to electrodynamics of moving bodies
dates back to Heinrich hertz, who wrote a book about the 'Ausbreitung
der elektrischen Kraft' (something like: distribution of the electric
forces).

and the chapter 14 was about the equations related to the
electrodynamics of moving bodies.

Einstein apparently used this book, but left no quotes or references.

Other roots of SRT were Hendrik Lorentz, Henry Poincare, Hermann
Minkowski and others.

The historical roots and subsequent changes of SRT prior and after
Einstein's text of 1905 belong to SRT, too, hence it is not possible to
equate both.
....

TH

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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From: ttt_...@web.de (Thomas Heger)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the el
ec trodynamics of moving bodies '
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 by: Thomas Heger - Sat, 28 May 2022 05:07 UTC

Am 20.05.2022 um 20:36 schrieb Richard Hertz:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 3:11:00 PM UTC-3, whodat wrote:
>> On 5/20/2022 9:50 AM, Richard Hertz wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> The universe itself ROTATES.
>>
>> What are you comparing the universe to. What is your test to make this
>> determination?
>>> Gravity is a not understood consequences of COSMIC ROTATION.
>> Gotta blame gravity on something, but a statement without any
>> demonstrable basis leaves us nowhere. Don't get me wrong, I'd love
>> to be able to agree with you, but it needs something more to make
>> it fit the body of knowledge we already accept, in short, the stuff
>> that actually works.
>>> This poorly understood concept, along with
>>> electrical charges, creates our reality at any level of perception,
>>> but it's barely studied.
>> Its hard to tell how much it is studied but that only means that
>> not very much is being published. The amount that's being published
>> correlates to the amount of success that has been achieved, which
>> clearly is little to none.
>>
>> Have you ever considered the possibility that there are things that
>> are beyond the ability of humans to understand? I'm not suggesting
>> that's so, but we're sure having one hell of a time with several
>> features of nature that are critical to better understanding what's
>> what, and this is a possibility.
>
> Every single book on astronomy, astrophysics or cosmology that I've read present evidence of universal rotation as
> a NATURAL BEHAVIOR, as observed everywhere and for millennials.

I had a certain idea about 16 years ago about how to connect Gr and QM,
which was based on a relatively simple quaternion equation:

p'= q*p*q^-1

This equation is used in computergraphics to modell rotations with
quaternions.

This equation looks remotely similar to the bra/ket contruct used in QM,
while the quaternions could be a good representation for GR.

(Actually I changed later to bi-quaternions.)

The idea is, that matter could be 'relative' and frame dependent, if
atoms are seen as standing rotation waves.

This concept is totally different than any known theory, but works quite
well.

So my assumtion was, that the principle of the universe is rotation,
which occur on all conceivable scales.

At a certain level we call the resulting patterns 'atoms' and on other
(much larger) scales we call them 'stars'.

As this is a huge fractal structure, which generates certain levels of
size, we usually assume, these levels are real and the things we see
only belong to that level.

But the 'relativistic' nature of the patterns and the use of complex
numbers allow astonishing effects, which we usually cannot see, like
time reversion and scale changes.

I have also written about about the idea, which nobody wanted to read:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Ur3_giuk2l439fxUa8QHX4wTDxBEaM6lOlgVUa0cFU4/edit?usp=sharing

TH

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's ‚On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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Subject: Re:_Concepts_about_time_in_Einstein's_‚On_the_elec
_trodynamics_of_moving_bodies_'
From: r_delane...@yahoo.com (RichD)
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 by: RichD - Sun, 29 May 2022 00:48 UTC

On May 20, deliver...@gmail.com wrote:
> Gravity is not caused by a curvature of spacetime, it is caused by the
> expansion of the universe. As things move away from each other due
> to expansion, this movement away from each other causes inertia in
> all directions, and the inertia causes gravity. Don't over-complicate things.

That sounds pretty complicated.

--
Rich

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

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Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of
moving bodies '
From: r_delane...@yahoo.com (RichD)
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 by: RichD - Wed, 1 Jun 2022 21:29 UTC

On May 20, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> The fully relativistic time scale for the solar system
> that is used for calculating motions of planets, probes and so on
> is TCB. (temps coordinée barycentrique)
> or Barycentric Coordinate Time. [1]
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycentric_Coordinate_Time>
> It is the time of a hypothetical clock
> that is comoving with the barycentre of the solar system,
> but 'infinitely far' removed from it.

How do they determine the barycenter?

--
Rich

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

<1psx31w.19n3bl51yxqxk7N%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 10:23:52 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 08:23 UTC

RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On May 20, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > The fully relativistic time scale for the solar system
> > that is used for calculating motions of planets, probes and so on
> > is TCB. (temps coordinée barycentrique)
> > or Barycentric Coordinate Time. [1]
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycentric_Coordinate_Time>
> > It is the time of a hypothetical clock
> > that is comoving with the barycentre of the solar system,
> > but 'infinitely far' removed from it.
>
> How do they determine the barycenter?

By calculation, from the known positions and masses
of the sun and the planets. Here it is:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycenter#/media/File:Solar_system_barycenter.svg>

Jan

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

<t7a61p$c9k$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '
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 by: Mikko - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 11:14 UTC

On 2022-06-02 08:23:52 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On May 20, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> The fully relativistic time scale for the solar system
>>> that is used for calculating motions of planets, probes and so on
>>> is TCB. (temps coordinée barycentrique)
>>> or Barycentric Coordinate Time. [1]
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycentric_Coordinate_Time>
>>> It is the time of a hypothetical clock
>>> that is comoving with the barycentre of the solar system,
>>> but 'infinitely far' removed from it.
>>
>> How do they determine the barycenter?
>
> By calculation, from the known positions and masses
> of the sun and the planets. Here it is:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycenter#/media/File:Solar_system_barycenter.svg>
>
>
> Jan

In average the barycentre of the Solar system is where Sun is.
Temporary deviations can be determined from Doppler shifts in
spectra of stars.

Mikko

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

<1psxbub.mz6o1jvi3ddqN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 13:54:46 +0200
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 11:54 UTC

Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> wrote:

> On 2022-06-02 08:23:52 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On May 20, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> The fully relativistic time scale for the solar system
> >>> that is used for calculating motions of planets, probes and so on
> >>> is TCB. (temps coordinée barycentrique)
> >>> or Barycentric Coordinate Time. [1]
> >>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycentric_Coordinate_Time>
> >>> It is the time of a hypothetical clock
> >>> that is comoving with the barycentre of the solar system,
> >>> but 'infinitely far' removed from it.
> >>
> >> How do they determine the barycenter?
> >
> > By calculation, from the known positions and masses
> > of the sun and the planets. Here it is:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barycenter#/media/File:Solar_system_barycente
r.svg>
> >
> >
> > Jan
>
> In average the barycentre of the Solar system is where Sun is.

This is wrong.
It would be true iff all orbits in the Solar system were circular.

But anyway, the average barycentre is useless,
given that planetary orbits can nowadays be calculated and observed
to far greater precision than the deviations of the barycentre.
The real time orbit of the Sun around the barycentre
needs to be calculated too.

> Temporary deviations can be determined from Doppler shifts in
> spectra of stars.

Nonsense. Changing Doppler shifts in the spectra of stars
can only give you the (instantaneous) velocity of the Earth,
(and to a far too low accuracy too)

Jan

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

<3878f962-b09a-4016-83ec-f3ab0e6bcb62n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of
moving bodies '
From: maluwozn...@gmail.com (Maciej Wozniak)
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 by: Maciej Wozniak - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 12:29 UTC

On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 13:54:49 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> Nonsense. Changing Doppler shifts in the spectra of stars
> can only give you the (instantaneous) velocity of the Earth,
> (and to a far too low accuracy too)

Haven't your idiot gurus taught you about the relativity
of the motion? The Earth velocity is 0, according to all
Earth observers (i.e. all of us) regardless of any Doppler
shifts.

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

<t7al1p$5oi$1@dont-email.me>

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From: mikko.le...@iki.fi (Mikko)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 18:30:02 +0300
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 by: Mikko - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 15:30 UTC

On 2022-06-02 11:54:46 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> wrote:
>
>> Temporary deviations can be determined from Doppler shifts in
>> spectra of stars.
>
> Nonsense. Changing Doppler shifts in the spectra of stars
> can only give you the (instantaneous) velocity of the Earth,
> (and to a far too low accuracy too)

with respect to the babrycentre, which is sufficent to determine
the velcity of the barycentre wrt Earth.
As relative velcities in Solar System are known, that is sufficient
to determine the velocity of the barycentre wrt any object,
e.g. Sun.

Mikko

Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '

<1psxh3t.dz41p716wthetN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>

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From: nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity
Subject: Re: Concepts about time in Einstein's 'On the elec trodynamics of moving bodies '
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2022 17:49:05 +0200
Organization: De Ster
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 by: J. J. Lodder - Thu, 2 Jun 2022 15:49 UTC

Maciej Wozniak <maluwozniak@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 13:54:49 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > Nonsense. Changing Doppler shifts in the spectra of stars
> > can only give you the (instantaneous) velocity of the Earth,
> > (and to a far too low accuracy too)
>
> Haven't your idiot gurus taught you about the relativity
> of the motion? The Earth velocity is 0, according to all
> Earth observers (i.e. all of us) regardless of any Doppler
> shifts.

Certainly, but then the collective velocity of the whole universe
will be variable.
It is all relative, you know,

Jan

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