Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/

Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling resistance is in fact the highest.

I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.

But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all. Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
>
> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
>
> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> resistance is in fact the highest.
>
> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
>
> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
>
They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.

They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
or Mountain bikes the better with drums!

It’s simpler to do and removes variables but road testing with say a power
meter even with all the variables and uncontrollable will give a better
idea.

Or accept that most high end tires will be close to each other.

Roger Merriman

On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 11:58:20 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
> >
> > https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> >
> > Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> > resistance is in fact the highest.
> >
> > I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> > process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> > the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> > by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> > https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> > know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> > Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> >
> > But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> > Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> >
> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
>
> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
>
> It’s simpler to do and removes variables but road testing with say a power
> meter even with all the variables and uncontrollable will give a better
> idea.
>
> Or accept that most high end tires will be close to each other.
>
> Roger Merriman
That is probably the best idea.

On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
>
> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
>
> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling resistance is in fact the highest.
>
> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's.

what a fucking liar - I never made any such claim you idiot.

On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
>>
>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
>>
>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
>> resistance is in fact the highest.
>>
>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
>>
>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
>>
> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
>
> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!

Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."

ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
riding surfaces.

Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
inaccurate.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
> >>
> >> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> >>
> >> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> >> resistance is in fact the highest.
> >>
> >> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> >> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> >> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> >> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> >> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> >> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> >> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> >>
> >> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all..
> >> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> >>
> > They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> >
> > They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> > a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> > or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
>
> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> riding surfaces.
>
> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> inaccurate.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums. You can put any surface on a drum.

Lou

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
>>>> accurate as per my legs:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
>>>>
>>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
>>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
>>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
>>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
>>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
>>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
>>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
>>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
>>>>
>>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
>>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
>>>>
>>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
>>>
>>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
>>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
>>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
>> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
>> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
>>
>> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
>> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
>> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
>> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
>> riding surfaces.
>>
>> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
>> inaccurate.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>
> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
> You can put any surface on a drum.
>
>
> Lou
>

Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
fairly laughable.

Roger Merriman

On Sat, 02 Sep 2023 08:19:02 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35?AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
>>>>> accurate as per my legs:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
>>>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
>>>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
>>>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
>>>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
>>>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
>>>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
>>>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
>>>>>
>>>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
>>>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
>>>>>
>>>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
>>>>
>>>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
>>>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
>>>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
>>> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
>>> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
>>>
>>> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
>>> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
>>> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
>>> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
>>> riding surfaces.
>>>
>>> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
>>> inaccurate.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>>
>> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
>> You can put any surface on a drum.
>>
>>
>> Lou
>>
>
>Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
>fairly laughable.
>
>Roger Merriman

I did some tests on my own. They pretty much matched the results from
this site:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:36:20 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
> > >>
> > >> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> > >>
> > >> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> > >> resistance is in fact the highest.
> > >>
> > >> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> > >> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> > >> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> > >> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> > >> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> > >> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> > >> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> > >>
> > >> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> > >> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> > >>
> > > They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> > >
> > > They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> > > a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> > > or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> > Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> > values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> >
> > ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> > the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> > tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> > 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> > riding surfaces.
> >
> > Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> > inaccurate.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums. You can put any surface on a drum.

Are you aware of any tests performed on drums with different surfaces? I'm not - not saying there aren't any, just that I've never seen anything published.

Besides that, even if there are drum test with different surfaces, the points that frank makes still hold. They aren't accurate representations of real world performance. They serve as a reference point - Sure certain tires have vastly lower rolling resistance in a laboratory setting, Others may show better performance when tested on a drum with a surface representing new asphalt, but that may or may not translate into better real world performance.

>
>
> Lou

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 10:19:06 AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
> >>>> accurate as per my legs:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> >>>>
> >>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> >>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> >>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> >>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> >>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> >>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> >>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> >>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> >>>>
> >>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> >>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> >>>>
> >>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> >>>
> >>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> >>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> >>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> >> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> >> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> >>
> >> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> >> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> >> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> >> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> >> riding surfaces.
> >>
> >> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> >> inaccurate.
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> >
> > You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
> > You can put any surface on a drum.
> >
> >
> > Lou
> >
> Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
> fairly laughable.
>
> Roger Merriman

I agree with off road tires, but for road tires it is a perfectly ok test to compare tires and that is the purpose of these test.

Lou

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 12:58:41 PM UTC+2, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:36:20 AM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
> > > >>
> > > >> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> > > >>
> > > >> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> > > >> resistance is in fact the highest.
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> > > >> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> > > >> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> > > >> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> > > >> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> > > >> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> > > >> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> > > >>
> > > >> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> > > >> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> > > >>
> > > > They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> > > >
> > > > They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> > > > a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> > > > or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> > > Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> > > values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> > >
> > > ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> > > the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> > > tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> > > 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> > > riding surfaces.
> > >
> > > Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> > > inaccurate.
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums. You can put any surface on a drum.
> Are you aware of any tests performed on drums with different surfaces? I'm not - not saying there aren't any, just that I've never seen anything published.
>
> Besides that, even if there are drum test with different surfaces, the points that frank makes still hold. They aren't accurate representations of real world performance. They serve as a reference point - Sure certain tires have vastly lower rolling resistance in a laboratory setting, Others may show better performance when tested on a drum with a surface representing new asphalt, but that may or may not translate into better real world performance.
>
> >
> >
> > Lou

Tour magazine does test with different drum surfaces for years.

Lou

On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 06:19:31 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 10:19:06?AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35?AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> >>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
>> >>>> accurate as per my legs:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
>> >>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
>> >>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
>> >>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
>> >>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
>> >>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
>> >>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
>> >>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
>> >>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
>> >>>>
>> >>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
>> >>>
>> >>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
>> >>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
>> >>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
>> >> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
>> >> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
>> >>
>> >> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
>> >> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
>> >> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
>> >> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
>> >> riding surfaces.
>> >>
>> >> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
>> >> inaccurate.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> - Frank Krygowski
>> >
>> >
>> > You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
>> > You can put any surface on a drum.
>> >
>> >
>> > Lou
>> >
>> Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
>> fairly laughable.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
>I agree with off road tires, but for road tires it is a perfectly ok test to compare tires and that is the purpose of these test.
>
>Lou

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 10:19:06 AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
>>>>>> accurate as per my legs:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
>>>>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
>>>>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
>>>>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
>>>>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
>>>>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
>>>>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
>>>>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
>>>>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
>>>>>>
>>>>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
>>>>>
>>>>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
>>>>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
>>>>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
>>>> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
>>>> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
>>>>
>>>> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
>>>> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
>>>> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
>>>> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
>>>> riding surfaces.
>>>>
>>>> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
>>>> inaccurate.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>>
>>> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
>>> You can put any surface on a drum.
>>>
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
>> fairly laughable.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I agree with off road tires, but for road tires it is a perfectly ok test
> to compare tires and that is the purpose of these test.
>
> Lou
>

Your still modelling rather than testing even if testing will result in
variable ie weather and so on.

Roger Merriman

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 06:19:31 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 10:19:06?AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35?AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
>>>>>>> accurate as per my legs:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
>>>>>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
>>>>>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
>>>>>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
>>>>>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
>>>>>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
>>>>>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
>>>>>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
>>>>>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
>>>>>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
>>>>>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
>>>>> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
>>>>> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
>>>>>
>>>>> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
>>>>> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
>>>>> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
>>>>> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
>>>>> riding surfaces.
>>>>>
>>>>> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
>>>>> inaccurate.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
>>>> You can put any surface on a drum.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>> Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
>>> fairly laughable.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> I agree with off road tires, but for road tires it is a perfectly ok
>> test to compare tires and that is the purpose of these test.
>>
>> Lou
>
> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/
>

I’m aware of them but it’s way to simplified a model they are using.

Roger Merriman

On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 10:36:20 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
> > >>
> > >> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> > >>
> > >> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> > >> resistance is in fact the highest.
> > >>
> > >> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> > >> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> > >> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> > >> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> > >> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> > >> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> > >> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> > >>
> > >> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> > >> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> > >>
> > > They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> > >
> > > They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> > > a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> > > or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> > Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> > values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> >
> > ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> > the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> > tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> > 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> > riding surfaces.
> >
> > Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> > inaccurate.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums. You can put any surface on a drum.
>
>
> Lou
Sure you can, but they don't. They use an easily obtainable steel built to supply traction so that shoes don't slip on a smooth steel surface. The article I showed had almost a total reversal of the results of the rolling resistance tests. Mind you, I think that we look at one thing in an article and feel something else in real used of tires and mentally make adjustments to our thinking to match that incorrect readings.

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 3:57:08 PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 10:19:06 AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
> >>>>>> accurate as per my legs:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> >>>>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> >>>>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> >>>>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> >>>>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> >>>>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> >>>>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> >>>>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> >>>>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> >>>>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> >>>>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> >>>> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> >>>> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> >>>>
> >>>> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> >>>> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> >>>> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> >>>> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> >>>> riding surfaces.
> >>>>
> >>>> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> >>>> inaccurate.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
> >>> You can put any surface on a drum.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >> Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
> >> fairly laughable.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > I agree with off road tires, but for road tires it is a perfectly ok test
> > to compare tires and that is the purpose of these test.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> Your still modelling rather than testing even if testing will result in
> variable ie weather and so on.
>
> Roger Merriman

What more realistic test do you suggest; just buy a tire and hope for the best? My gravelbike had WTB tires on it and I changed them for Continental Terra Speed tires based on tests. Huge difference.

Lou

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:18:25 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 10:36:20 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
> > > >>
> > > >> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> > > >>
> > > >> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> > > >> resistance is in fact the highest.
> > > >>
> > > >> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> > > >> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> > > >> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> > > >> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> > > >> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> > > >> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> > > >> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> > > >>
> > > >> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> > > >> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> > > >>
> > > > They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> > > >
> > > > They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> > > > a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> > > > or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> > > Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> > > values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> > >
> > > ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> > > the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> > > tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> > > 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> > > riding surfaces.
> > >
> > > Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> > > inaccurate.
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums. You can put any surface on a drum.
> >
> >
> > Lou
> Sure you can, but they don't.

Yes they do. Why shouldn’t they. It is simple.

Lou

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 8:38:19 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:18:25 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 10:36:20 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> > > > >> resistance is in fact the highest.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> > > > >> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> > > > >> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> > > > >> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> > > > >> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> > > > >> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> > > > >> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> > > > >> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> > > > >>
> > > > > They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> > > > >
> > > > > They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> > > > > a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> > > > > or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> > > > Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> > > > values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> > > >
> > > > ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> > > > the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> > > > tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> > > > 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> > > > riding surfaces.
> > > >
> > > > Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> > > > inaccurate.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums. You can put any surface on a drum.
> > >
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Sure you can, but they don't.
> Yes they do. Why shouldn’t they. It is simple.
>
> Lou

Lou, ALL of the tests are run on the so-called non-slip steel surfaced drum.. I would think that the data would be transferable but the Bike Radar tests suggest otherwise. I had been noticing that the Vittoria Corsa tires seemed to be riding slower than I remembered but let's remember that they sold a lot of tires from those tests and may have been force to use a cheaper rubber compound. Look at the difference between the Vittoria and Veloflex. Why would the otherwise identical tire have a full watt of difference?

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 3:57:08 PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 10:19:06 AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
>>>>>>>> accurate as per my legs:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
>>>>>>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
>>>>>>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
>>>>>>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
>>>>>>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
>>>>>>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
>>>>>>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
>>>>>>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
>>>>>>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
>>>>>>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
>>>>>>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
>>>>>> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
>>>>>> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
>>>>>> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
>>>>>> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
>>>>>> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
>>>>>> riding surfaces.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
>>>>>> inaccurate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
>>>>> You can put any surface on a drum.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>> Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
>>>> fairly laughable.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> I agree with off road tires, but for road tires it is a perfectly ok test
>>> to compare tires and that is the purpose of these test.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> Your still modelling rather than testing even if testing will result in
>> variable ie weather and so on.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> What more realistic test do you suggest; just buy a tire and hope for the
> best? My gravelbike had WTB tires on it and I changed them for
> Continental Terra Speed tires based on tests. Huge difference.
>
> Lou
>
Reviews assuming they aren’t just regurgitating PR fluff are my go to, I’ve
chosen tires that I’m fairly sure are ever so slightly slower than ones I
had before which review as quick if a touch puncture prone, some Pirelli
Cinturato H, but the main difference over the G ones allround was grip or
lack of it, felt slightly faster yes but held on much less be that steep
technical climbs and so on.

Roger Merriman

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 9:50:19 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 3:57:08 PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 10:19:06 AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
> >>>>>>>> accurate as per my legs:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> >>>>>>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> >>>>>>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> >>>>>>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> >>>>>>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> >>>>>>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> >>>>>>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> >>>>>>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> >>>>>>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> >>>>>>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> >>>>>>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> >>>>>> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> >>>>>> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> >>>>>> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> >>>>>> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> >>>>>> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> >>>>>> riding surfaces.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> >>>>>> inaccurate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
> >>>>> You can put any surface on a drum.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>>>
> >>>> Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
> >>>> fairly laughable.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>
> >>> I agree with off road tires, but for road tires it is a perfectly ok test
> >>> to compare tires and that is the purpose of these test.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >> Your still modelling rather than testing even if testing will result in
> >> variable ie weather and so on.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > What more realistic test do you suggest; just buy a tire and hope for the
> > best? My gravelbike had WTB tires on it and I changed them for
> > Continental Terra Speed tires based on tests. Huge difference.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> Reviews assuming they aren’t just regurgitating PR fluff are my go to, I’ve
> chosen tires that I’m fairly sure are ever so slightly slower than ones I
> had before which review as quick if a touch puncture prone, some Pirelli
> Cinturato H, but the main difference over the G ones allround was grip or
> lack of it, felt slightly faster yes but held on much less be that steep
> technical climbs and so on.
>
> Roger Merriman
Since the difference from model to model was so tiny I give no veracity to "road tests". Remember that these people are paid to say that newer is better.

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 5:52:12 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 8:38:19 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:18:25 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 10:36:20 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > > > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> > > > > >> resistance is in fact the highest.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> > > > > >> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> > > > > >> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> > > > > >> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> > > > > >> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> > > > > >> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's.. Since the
> > > > > >> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> > > > > >> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > > They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> > > > > > a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> > > > > > or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> > > > > Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> > > > > values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> > > > >
> > > > > ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> > > > > the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> > > > > tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> > > > > 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> > > > > riding surfaces.
> > > > >
> > > > > Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> > > > > inaccurate.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > > You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums. You can put any surface on a drum.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > Sure you can, but they don't.
> > Yes they do. Why shouldn’t they. It is simple.
> >
> > Lou
> Lou, ALL of the tests are run on the so-called non-slip steel surfaced drum.

Nope, you reading the wrong tests. Last issue of TOUR magazine had had another tire test and they always explain what and how they test:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BDkXbWdFgbf4ZW9G9

In the results they present two values for RR 'rauer Untergrund' and 'glatter Untergrund'. I assume that you can read German since you read all the books from three libraries ;-)

Lou

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 11:13:28 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 5:52:12 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 8:38:19 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:18:25 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 10:36:20 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > > > > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> > > > > > >> resistance is in fact the highest.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> > > > > > >> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> > > > > > >> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> > > > > > >> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> > > > > > >> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> > > > > > >> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> > > > > > >> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> > > > > > >> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> > > > > > > a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> > > > > > > or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> > > > > > Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> > > > > > values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> > > > > > the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> > > > > > tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> > > > > > 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> > > > > > riding surfaces.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> > > > > > inaccurate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > > > You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums. You can put any surface on a drum.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > Sure you can, but they don't.
> > > Yes they do. Why shouldn’t they. It is simple.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Lou, ALL of the tests are run on the so-called non-slip steel surfaced drum.
> Nope, you reading the wrong tests. Last issue of TOUR magazine had had another tire test and they always explain what and how they test:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/BDkXbWdFgbf4ZW9G9
>
> In the results they present two values for RR 'rauer Untergrund' and 'glatter Untergrund'. I assume that you can read German since you read all the books from three libraries ;-)
>
> Lou
I don't see the charts of rolling resistance and that appears to be the entire article. No, I don't read much German since the libraries I read were American and in the 50's the Germans had more to worry about than publishing in American journals.

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 12:18:47 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 11:13:28 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 5:52:12 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 8:38:19 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:18:25 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 1, 2023 at 10:36:20 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > > > > On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> > > > > > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more accurate as per my legs:
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> > > > > > > >> resistance is in fact the highest.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> > > > > > > >> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> > > > > > > >> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> > > > > > > >> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> > > > > > > >> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> > > > > > > >> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
> > > > > > > >> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> > > > > > > >> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> > > > > > > > a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> > > > > > > > or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> > > > > > > Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> > > > > > > values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> > > > > > > the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> > > > > > > tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> > > > > > > 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> > > > > > > riding surfaces.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> > > > > > > inaccurate.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > > > > You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums. You can put any surface on a drum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lou
> > > > > Sure you can, but they don't.
> > > > Yes they do. Why shouldn’t they. It is simple.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > Lou, ALL of the tests are run on the so-called non-slip steel surfaced drum.
> > Nope, you reading the wrong tests. Last issue of TOUR magazine had had another tire test and they always explain what and how they test:
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/BDkXbWdFgbf4ZW9G9
> >
> > In the results they present two values for RR 'rauer Untergrund' and 'glatter Untergrund'. I assume that you can read German since you read all the books from three libraries ;-)
> >
> > Lou
> I don't see the charts of rolling resistance and that appears to be the entire article. No, I don't read much German since the libraries I read were American and in the 50's the Germans had more to worry about than publishing in American journals.

In the 1950s, Germany was a shattered nation slit between a communist takeover that had no intend on rebuilding on the ruins and the US side of the border that was rapidly turning Germany into a leading nation in our world. But they really didn't get a chance to do that until the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. Most of the important German Scientists took out American citizenship and published in American journals in English. Let's remember that even today Germany was convinced to change their nation over to wind power while the US blew up their only good source of fossil fuels. So are German scientists any better today if they follow the same misinformation as the rest of the Woke world?

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 9:50:19 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 3:57:08 PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 10:19:06 AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
>>>>>>>>>> accurate as per my legs:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
>>>>>>>>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
>>>>>>>>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
>>>>>>>>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
>>>>>>>>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
>>>>>>>>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's. Since the
>>>>>>>>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
>>>>>>>>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
>>>>>>>>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
>>>>>>>>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
>>>>>>>> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
>>>>>>>> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
>>>>>>>> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
>>>>>>>> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
>>>>>>>> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
>>>>>>>> riding surfaces.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
>>>>>>>> inaccurate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
>>>>>>> You can put any surface on a drum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
>>>>>> fairly laughable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with off road tires, but for road tires it is a perfectly ok test
>>>>> to compare tires and that is the purpose of these test.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>> Your still modelling rather than testing even if testing will result in
>>>> variable ie weather and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> What more realistic test do you suggest; just buy a tire and hope for the
>>> best? My gravelbike had WTB tires on it and I changed them for
>>> Continental Terra Speed tires based on tests. Huge difference.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>> Reviews assuming they aren’t just regurgitating PR fluff are my go to, I’ve
>> chosen tires that I’m fairly sure are ever so slightly slower than ones I
>> had before which review as quick if a touch puncture prone, some Pirelli
>> Cinturato H, but the main difference over the G ones allround was grip or
>> lack of it, felt slightly faster yes but held on much less be that steep
>> technical climbs and so on.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
> Since the difference from model to model was so tiny I give no veracity
> to "road tests". Remember that these people are paid to say that newer is better.
>

Probably is though road tires are probably into marginal gains even with
tubeless tech.

MTB it’s more variable though number of tires have been folks go to for
decades. No convinced much improvement tires from 10 years ago say. Still
be tubeless and have fancy rubber and so on.

Gravel tires are finding there place and different types as well. I use
fast close pack tires as a type while others use more MTB inspired or even
MTB tires such as thinner XC stuff ie 2/2.1

Reviews for most part do seem to be not just printing stuff, also depends
on usage.

Roger Merriman

On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:20:17 PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 9:50:19 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 3:57:08 PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 10:19:06 AM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 1:01:35 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 9/1/2023 2:58 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Despite what other sites report, this one seems a great deal more
> >>>>>>>>>> accurate as per my legs:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.bikeradar.com/features/tech/fast-road-tyre-group-test/
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Note that the Vittoria Corsa that is generally rated the lowest rolling
> >>>>>>>>>> resistance is in fact the highest.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't know if this was possibly a problem with a new manufacturing
> >>>>>>>>>> process or they were always this slow, Remember that when I stated that
> >>>>>>>>>> the Michelin Pro4 was the fastest tire I had ever ridden I was gaffawed
> >>>>>>>>>> by Flunky as not knowing what I was talking about and he used the
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test as proof that I didn't
> >>>>>>>>>> know what I was talking about. So bozo's will always be bozo's.. Since the
> >>>>>>>>>> Pro4 isn't made in a tubeless it wasn't tested here.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> But my legs still tell me that the Pro4 is better than most if not all.
> >>>>>>>>>> Certainly better than the latest Vittoria N.Ext TLR.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> They didn’t test the Pro4 but the PowerCup as that’s Michelin’s fast tire.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> They also as Bicycle rolling resistance did just tested on a drum, even for
> >>>>>>>>> a road tire that’s simplifying your model rather, less said about Gravel/CX
> >>>>>>>>> or Mountain bikes the better with drums!
> >>>>>>>> Right. Drum testing results shouldn't be labeled as "rolling resistance
> >>>>>>>> values." It would be more accurate to label them "tire hysteresis values."
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ISTM that most drum tests would probably rank a steel wheel as having
> >>>>>>>> the lowest "rolling resistance," followed perhaps by a solid rubber
> >>>>>>>> tire. There would be very low hysteresis losses. But somewhere around
> >>>>>>>> 1890 cyclists learned that deformable tires were far faster on actual
> >>>>>>>> riding surfaces.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Drum tests are pleasantly repeatable. I think they're practically
> >>>>>>>> inaccurate.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You are under the impression that the test are only done on smooth drums.
> >>>>>>> You can put any surface on a drum.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not convinced that’s enough, even for road tires. On off road tires is
> >>>>>> fairly laughable.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I agree with off road tires, but for road tires it is a perfectly ok test
> >>>>> to compare tires and that is the purpose of these test.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Lou
> >>>>>
> >>>> Your still modelling rather than testing even if testing will result in
> >>>> variable ie weather and so on.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>
> >>> What more realistic test do you suggest; just buy a tire and hope for the
> >>> best? My gravelbike had WTB tires on it and I changed them for
> >>> Continental Terra Speed tires based on tests. Huge difference.
> >>>
> >>> Lou
> >>>
> >> Reviews assuming they aren’t just regurgitating PR fluff are my go to, I’ve
> >> chosen tires that I’m fairly sure are ever so slightly slower than ones I
> >> had before which review as quick if a touch puncture prone, some Pirelli
> >> Cinturato H, but the main difference over the G ones allround was grip or
> >> lack of it, felt slightly faster yes but held on much less be that steep
> >> technical climbs and so on.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> > Since the difference from model to model was so tiny I give no veracity
> > to "road tests". Remember that these people are paid to say that newer is better.
> >
> Probably is though road tires are probably into marginal gains even with
> tubeless tech.
>
> MTB it’s more variable though number of tires have been folks go to for
> decades. No convinced much improvement tires from 10 years ago say. Still
> be tubeless and have fancy rubber and so on.
>
> Gravel tires are finding there place and different types as well. I use
> fast close pack tires as a type while others use more MTB inspired or even
> MTB tires such as thinner XC stuff ie 2/2.1
>
> Reviews for most part do seem to be not just printing stuff, also depends
> on usage.
>
> Roger Merriman
I agree with you that tubeless tires offer two marginal gains - 1.They have marginal gains in lower rolling resistance and 2. Most bike tire flats are small holes caused by thorns or wires. Tubeless prevents a stop to fix a flat. But why would anyone think that the sealant in the tire offers any rolling resistance since basically it doesn't move.