One of the major differences in Colnago over Shimano is that it Campagnolo has a much lower pull ratio on the levers. So the rear derailleur has a larger lever ratio.

This means that smaller differences in the cable lengths make a larger difference in the position of the rear derailleur arm.

Frank has claimed that when you release the lever in its new position, that the cables return to their non-tensioned length. I suppose he is correct to an extent. But only AFTER the lines have been bedded in from their new state.

So new Campy cables will need to be readjusted on the work stand after a ride that beds them in solidly.

Shimano and SRAM which have the same longer pull ratio are a lot less likely to have this problem since the rear derailleur moves less than that of the Campagnolo per mm of cable pull.

One of the things that moved me from the Shimano brifters to those of Campagnolo was the lever and button mechanism on the Campy. This was much more intuitive and it very rapidly becomes automatic. The Shimano is always making mistakes because of the lever's proximity.

Shimano has now attempted to correct this with the Di2 mechanism which has buttons to make the shifts. This also becomes automatic but it takes more time.

So there are pluses and minuses of both methods and it is up to you to decide with information and not "Gee, that one looks nicer". Or you can go like Frank and continue to use friction bar ends and a 7 speed freewheel.

On 9/4/2023 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> One of the major differences in Colnago over Shimano is that it Campagnolo has a much lower pull ratio on the levers. So the rear derailleur has a larger lever ratio.
>
> This means that smaller differences in the cable lengths make a larger difference in the position of the rear derailleur arm.
>
> Frank has claimed that when you release the lever in its new position, that the cables return to their non-tensioned length. I suppose he is correct to an extent. But only AFTER the lines have been bedded in from their new state.
>
> So new Campy cables will need to be readjusted on the work stand after a ride that beds them in solidly.
>
> Shimano and SRAM which have the same longer pull ratio are a lot less likely to have this problem since the rear derailleur moves less than that of the Campagnolo per mm of cable pull.
>
> One of the things that moved me from the Shimano brifters to those of Campagnolo was the lever and button mechanism on the Campy. This was much more intuitive and it very rapidly becomes automatic. The Shimano is always making mistakes because of the lever's proximity.
>
> Shimano has now attempted to correct this with the Di2 mechanism which has buttons to make the shifts. This also becomes automatic but it takes more time.
>
> So there are pluses and minuses of both methods and it is up to you to decide with information and not "Gee, that one looks nicer". Or you can go like Frank and continue to use friction bar ends and a 7 speed freewheel.

Assuming minimal competence in assembly (no curves or
spirals or kinks in wires) the effect is primarily
compression of casing caps to casing, caps to frame stops
and, in the case of Ergo levers, casing into lever socket.
A one-time stress of the system (wire + casing & fittings)
during setup removes that effect. There's no material
difference among Campagnolo, Shimano, SRAM and premium
aftermarket cable sets in this regard.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/4/2023 2:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Frank has claimed that when you release the lever in its new position, that the cables return to their non-tensioned length. I suppose he is correct to an extent. But only AFTER the lines have been bedded in from their new state.

You really shouldn't try to remember what I've said on any topic. Your
memory isn't up to the task.

Instead, dig back and find the exact quote of what I've said.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 12:13:59 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/4/2023 1:54 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > One of the major differences in Colnago over Shimano is that it Campagnolo has a much lower pull ratio on the levers. So the rear derailleur has a larger lever ratio.
> >
> > This means that smaller differences in the cable lengths make a larger difference in the position of the rear derailleur arm.
> >
> > Frank has claimed that when you release the lever in its new position, that the cables return to their non-tensioned length. I suppose he is correct to an extent. But only AFTER the lines have been bedded in from their new state.
> >
> > So new Campy cables will need to be readjusted on the work stand after a ride that beds them in solidly.
> >
> > Shimano and SRAM which have the same longer pull ratio are a lot less likely to have this problem since the rear derailleur moves less than that of the Campagnolo per mm of cable pull.
> >
> > One of the things that moved me from the Shimano brifters to those of Campagnolo was the lever and button mechanism on the Campy. This was much more intuitive and it very rapidly becomes automatic. The Shimano is always making mistakes because of the lever's proximity.
> >
> > Shimano has now attempted to correct this with the Di2 mechanism which has buttons to make the shifts. This also becomes automatic but it takes more time.
> >
> > So there are pluses and minuses of both methods and it is up to you to decide with information and not "Gee, that one looks nicer". Or you can go like Frank and continue to use friction bar ends and a 7 speed freewheel.
> Assuming minimal competence in assembly (no curves or
> spirals or kinks in wires) the effect is primarily
> compression of casing caps to casing, caps to frame stops
> and, in the case of Ergo levers, casing into lever socket.
> A one-time stress of the system (wire + casing & fittings)
> during setup removes that effect. There's no material
> difference among Campagnolo, Shimano, SRAM and premium
> aftermarket cable sets in this regard.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

That is what I previously thought - surely the seating in of of the outer cables works that way. But in every case since I started using the 11's, the inner cable had to be carefully readjusted and sometimes it was considerably out of true. The 12 did that as well but the effect was that the front derailleur and not the rear appeared to be the source of the problem. And it was less severe to the point where it would only shift from the small ring to the large in upper or lower quadrant of the cassette.

Now, I did observe several pictures on UTube that showed the plastic end-caps crushing over time and so I switched back to the brass caps. But the changes in the adjustment of the rear shifting continued. Certainly it can't be the inner cables shifting in the cable lock because it is tightened just short of the point where the inner cable can break.

It only takes on hard ride and readjustment but I have to be aware of that. Or the next ride the shifting is really inaccurate. As the distance between cassette gear spacing reduces this shows up worse. But it is only a partial twist of the adjustment. But I have never been able to correctly get it to work on the road and always needed it on the stand. But I suppose part of that has to do with my damaged eyesight so that I don't have binary vision except at certain angles.

On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 11:54:29 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>One of the major differences in Colnago over Shimano is that it Campagnolo has a much lower pull ratio on the levers. So the rear derailleur has a larger lever ratio.
>
>This means that smaller differences in the cable lengths make a larger difference in the position of the rear derailleur arm.
>
>Frank has claimed that when you release the lever in its new position, that the cables return to their non-tensioned length. I suppose he is correct to an extent. But only AFTER the lines have been bedded in from their new state.
>
>So new Campy cables will need to be readjusted on the work stand after a ride that beds them in solidly.
>
>Shimano and SRAM which have the same longer pull ratio are a lot less likely to have this problem since the rear derailleur moves less than that of the Campagnolo per mm of cable pull.
>
>One of the things that moved me from the Shimano brifters to those of Campagnolo was the lever and button mechanism on the Campy. This was much more intuitive and it very rapidly becomes automatic. The Shimano is always making mistakes because of the lever's proximity.
>
>Shimano has now attempted to correct this with the Di2 mechanism which has buttons to make the shifts. This also becomes automatic but it takes more time.
>
>So there are pluses and minuses of both methods and it is up to you to decide with information and not "Gee, that one looks nicer". Or you can go like Frank and continue to use friction bar ends and a 7 speed freewheel.

But why not a 7 speed? Or even a 5 speed? Riding in Bangkok my 20 km
morning ride required no more the one gear change, if the wind was
blowing, during the entire ride and my Sunday "long ride" might entail
a half dozen shifts in up to 100 km.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/4/2023 9:38 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 11:54:29 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> Or you can go like Frank and continue to use friction bar ends and a 7 speed freewheel.
>
>
> But why not a 7 speed? Or even a 5 speed? Riding in Bangkok my 20 km
> morning ride required no more the one gear change, if the wind was
> blowing, during the entire ride and my Sunday "long ride" might entail
> a half dozen shifts in up to 100 km.

Why not? Because it's not trendy enough. Fashion is weird and powerful.
Tom's posts are evidence.

--
- Frank Krygowski