On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 8:35:50 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> > On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> > <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:04:21?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:23:25?AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>>>>> Am 04.09.2023 um 16:28 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> >>>>>>> On 9/3/2023 10:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Even without net metering, solar power will offset some EV charging
> >>>>>>>> expenses. I just logged into a customers Enphase Enlighten monitoring
> >>>>>>>> account to check on todays production. It was rather foggy and cloudy
> >>>>>>>> this morning, but their 5 kW(?) rooftop array produced about 20 kWh
> >>>>>>>> for the day. At about 0.25 kWh/mile for a Tesla Model 3, that's good
> >>>>>>>> for 80 miles/day:
> >>>>>>>> <https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/>
> >>>>>>>> Not great, but still helpful.
> >>>>>> For some weird reason, European tests show a completely different order
> >>>>>> of 'most economic EV'.
> >>>>>> <https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/autokosten/sparsamste-elektroautos/>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I like the idea of solar panels to help charge an EV. Our problem is a
> >>>>>>> huge old Siberian Elm tree shading the garage roof, which is otherwise
> >>>>>>> well oriented for panels.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> BTW, that table gives 0.3 kWh/mile for a 2019 Kia Niro EV. I just double
> >>>>>>> checked our car's display. For the last 828 miles, the car's gone 4.1
> >>>>>>> miles per kWh. That's 2.4 kWh/mile, significantly better than the table.
> >>>>>> With EV, typical driving consitions play a much more important role than
> >>>>>> with IV cars.
> >>>>>> My Hyundai Kona is listed at 0.13 kWh/km in WLTP standard. I have
> >>>>>> driven it at 0.08 kWh/km in city traffic (no need to charge for a couple
> >>>>>> of weeks around home) when rarely exceeding 30 mph, and I have driven it
> >>>>>> at 0.25 kWh/km (frequent charging stops on a long road trip) at highway
> >>>>>> speeds of 80 mph.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Rolf
> >>>>> I think that your reference points out that the strength of the electric
> >>>>> car is being ignored by attempting to match ICE automobiles. Can they go
> >>>>> fast? Not as fast as some would try to insist though that is well over
> >>>>> the safe speed for 99% of most drivers and 100% of speed limits, but the
> >>>>> ability to be made energy efficient which is being avoided. Solid state
> >>>>> batteries are now being manufactured and they will rapidly improve. This
> >>>>> will allow EV's to be made lighter and with higher range. This of course
> >>>>> with also improve their efficiency. So rather than stressing how fast an
> >>>>> EV can go their marketing should be stressing their energy efficiency
> >>>>> which they are not doing because the government is subsidizing poor
> >>>>> efficiency so heavily.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> People are beginning to see that the government is the enemy of freedom
> >>>>> and with that large swaths of the government will be eliminated though
> >>>>> the government and their best pals, the slime stream media, will fight
> >>>>> it every inch of the way. Until the media returns to their job of
> >>>>> reporting truly on the government over-reach they will not have any
> >>>>> belief in their integrity and honesty. And even with a return to honesty
> >>>>> it will be a long time before people have any trust at all in them. FOX
> >>>>> had been in the position of opposing the leftist media but they chose to
> >>>>> throw that away with the firing of Tucker Carlson. All they had to do
> >>>>> was look at the polls that showed that they lost more than half of their
> >>>>> audience or more to9 see that following the rest of the slime stream
> >>>>> media over the cliff was a bad idea. But now it is too late. Tucker
> >>>>> dislikes the idea but he will probably be forced into politics to make
> >>>>> his opinions not just heard but acted upon. Are his opinions pertinent? Why has
> >>>>> the US become the warmonger of the world? Where did the idea come from
> >>>>> that we should free every other people on this globe. Beyond the fact
> >>>>> that we cannot do that, in order to try we have to fulfill the
> >>>>> predictions of President Eisenhower and become nothing more than a tool
> >>>>> of the military-industrial complex. His worry has become our reality. If
> >>>>> other people do not value their own freedom enough to revolt against
> >>>>> things like the Taliban, why should we attempt to intervene? Shouldn't
> >>>>> we give other people's the respect that they can have their own founding fathers?
> >>>>
> >>>> WE're contemplating another trip (by car) out to Colorado. It'll be
> >>>> about 1900 miles and we'll do it in three days, each way. An EV is not
> >>>> even remotely able to accomodate us.
> >>>>
> >>> A EV certainly can drive 600+ miles only ones I’ve heard that can’t are the
> >>> Nissan Leaf due to the battery cooling or rather lack of, it would refuse
> >>> to charge as too hot.
> >>>
> >>> But any others certainly can cope with such distances, in America your best
> >>> option would be a Tesla as they do have a decent network, in Europe much
> >>> better networks so most EV ie they would do few hundred miles before
> >>> needing a charge, which frankly folks should be having breaks as well over
> >>> a what 10hr drive?
> >>>
> >>> If hotels have charging all the better.
> >>>
> >>> I’d also suggest even for America driving unless for pleasure 3 days to get
> >>> somewhere is a rather a outlier, but essentially with caveat with American
> >>> charging networks hence Tesla being the safer option though others might
> >>> well be good enough now?
> >>>
> >>> Roger Merriman
> >>
> >> 1900 miles in 3 days is about 630 miles per day. This would take two
> >> charging stops of 30-45 minutes.. range is not the problem, charging infrastructure is.
> >>
> >> Lou
> >
> > I have no patience. I have to be doing something, in other words,
> > pursuing a goal. Sitting and waiting for the batteries to charge when
> > I want to get moving is a high anxiety situation for me. I have the
> > same issue sitting at the airport waiting for the plane to start
> > loading.
> >
> > That's why riding bike trails works so well for me. It's pretty much
> > mindless hard work in pursuit of a goal. I'm most relaxed when I'm
> > working hard at something. Driving isn't hard work, but at least I'm
> > doing something instead of sitting in plane.
> >
> Well that is a reason to drive and yes I can see a EV would probably be
> tedious in that regard at least for longer distances than it’s maximum
> range.
>
> For myself I like cafe stops be that car or bike so for example sitting 30
> mins with cappuccino and cake while the car charges as I habitually do tend
> to stop at one motorway services which has outside cafe and charging bays,
> so for me nothing would change much.
>
> For me the EV hasn’t yet been built ie decent estate car and well that for
> me a car is rather secondary method of transport it’s use is mainly back to
> wales and so on, day to day it’s bike/bus/train depending on which makes
> more sense. And as such I’m quite happy with a old car.
>
> I’d assume at some point it will flip and become easier to live with a EV
> than ICE car for more people.
>
> Roger Merriman

On 9/5/2023 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 8:35:50 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:04:21?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:23:25?AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am 04.09.2023 um 16:28 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2023 10:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even without net metering, solar power will offset some EV charging
>>>>>>>>>> expenses. I just logged into a customers Enphase Enlighten monitoring
>>>>>>>>>> account to check on todays production. It was rather foggy and cloudy
>>>>>>>>>> this morning, but their 5 kW(?) rooftop array produced about 20 kWh
>>>>>>>>>> for the day. At about 0.25 kWh/mile for a Tesla Model 3, that's good
>>>>>>>>>> for 80 miles/day:
>>>>>>>>>> <https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/>
>>>>>>>>>> Not great, but still helpful.
>>>>>>>> For some weird reason, European tests show a completely different order
>>>>>>>> of 'most economic EV'.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/autokosten/sparsamste-elektroautos/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I like the idea of solar panels to help charge an EV. Our problem is a
>>>>>>>>> huge old Siberian Elm tree shading the garage roof, which is otherwise
>>>>>>>>> well oriented for panels.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BTW, that table gives 0.3 kWh/mile for a 2019 Kia Niro EV. I just double
>>>>>>>>> checked our car's display. For the last 828 miles, the car's gone 4.1
>>>>>>>>> miles per kWh. That's 2.4 kWh/mile, significantly better than the table.
>>>>>>>> With EV, typical driving consitions play a much more important role than
>>>>>>>> with IV cars.
>>>>>>>> My Hyundai Kona is listed at 0.13 kWh/km in WLTP standard. I have
>>>>>>>> driven it at 0.08 kWh/km in city traffic (no need to charge for a couple
>>>>>>>> of weeks around home) when rarely exceeding 30 mph, and I have driven it
>>>>>>>> at 0.25 kWh/km (frequent charging stops on a long road trip) at highway
>>>>>>>> speeds of 80 mph.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rolf
>>>>>>> I think that your reference points out that the strength of the electric
>>>>>>> car is being ignored by attempting to match ICE automobiles. Can they go
>>>>>>> fast? Not as fast as some would try to insist though that is well over
>>>>>>> the safe speed for 99% of most drivers and 100% of speed limits, but the
>>>>>>> ability to be made energy efficient which is being avoided. Solid state
>>>>>>> batteries are now being manufactured and they will rapidly improve. This
>>>>>>> will allow EV's to be made lighter and with higher range. This of course
>>>>>>> with also improve their efficiency. So rather than stressing how fast an
>>>>>>> EV can go their marketing should be stressing their energy efficiency
>>>>>>> which they are not doing because the government is subsidizing poor
>>>>>>> efficiency so heavily.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People are beginning to see that the government is the enemy of freedom
>>>>>>> and with that large swaths of the government will be eliminated though
>>>>>>> the government and their best pals, the slime stream media, will fight
>>>>>>> it every inch of the way. Until the media returns to their job of
>>>>>>> reporting truly on the government over-reach they will not have any
>>>>>>> belief in their integrity and honesty. And even with a return to honesty
>>>>>>> it will be a long time before people have any trust at all in them. FOX
>>>>>>> had been in the position of opposing the leftist media but they chose to
>>>>>>> throw that away with the firing of Tucker Carlson. All they had to do
>>>>>>> was look at the polls that showed that they lost more than half of their
>>>>>>> audience or more to9 see that following the rest of the slime stream
>>>>>>> media over the cliff was a bad idea. But now it is too late. Tucker
>>>>>>> dislikes the idea but he will probably be forced into politics to make
>>>>>>> his opinions not just heard but acted upon. Are his opinions pertinent? Why has
>>>>>>> the US become the warmonger of the world? Where did the idea come from
>>>>>>> that we should free every other people on this globe. Beyond the fact
>>>>>>> that we cannot do that, in order to try we have to fulfill the
>>>>>>> predictions of President Eisenhower and become nothing more than a tool
>>>>>>> of the military-industrial complex. His worry has become our reality. If
>>>>>>> other people do not value their own freedom enough to revolt against
>>>>>>> things like the Taliban, why should we attempt to intervene? Shouldn't
>>>>>>> we give other people's the respect that they can have their own founding fathers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WE're contemplating another trip (by car) out to Colorado. It'll be
>>>>>> about 1900 miles and we'll do it in three days, each way. An EV is not
>>>>>> even remotely able to accomodate us.
>>>>>>
>>>>> A EV certainly can drive 600+ miles only ones I’ve heard that can’t are the
>>>>> Nissan Leaf due to the battery cooling or rather lack of, it would refuse
>>>>> to charge as too hot.
>>>>>
>>>>> But any others certainly can cope with such distances, in America your best
>>>>> option would be a Tesla as they do have a decent network, in Europe much
>>>>> better networks so most EV ie they would do few hundred miles before
>>>>> needing a charge, which frankly folks should be having breaks as well over
>>>>> a what 10hr drive?
>>>>>
>>>>> If hotels have charging all the better.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’d also suggest even for America driving unless for pleasure 3 days to get
>>>>> somewhere is a rather a outlier, but essentially with caveat with American
>>>>> charging networks hence Tesla being the safer option though others might
>>>>> well be good enough now?
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> 1900 miles in 3 days is about 630 miles per day. This would take two
>>>> charging stops of 30-45 minutes.. range is not the problem, charging infrastructure is.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> I have no patience. I have to be doing something, in other words,
>>> pursuing a goal. Sitting and waiting for the batteries to charge when
>>> I want to get moving is a high anxiety situation for me. I have the
>>> same issue sitting at the airport waiting for the plane to start
>>> loading.
>>>
>>> That's why riding bike trails works so well for me. It's pretty much
>>> mindless hard work in pursuit of a goal. I'm most relaxed when I'm
>>> working hard at something. Driving isn't hard work, but at least I'm
>>> doing something instead of sitting in plane.
>>>
>> Well that is a reason to drive and yes I can see a EV would probably be
>> tedious in that regard at least for longer distances than it’s maximum
>> range.
>>
>> For myself I like cafe stops be that car or bike so for example sitting 30
>> mins with cappuccino and cake while the car charges as I habitually do tend
>> to stop at one motorway services which has outside cafe and charging bays,
>> so for me nothing would change much.
>>
>> For me the EV hasn’t yet been built ie decent estate car and well that for
>> me a car is rather secondary method of transport it’s use is mainly back to
>> wales and so on, day to day it’s bike/bus/train depending on which makes
>> more sense. And as such I’m quite happy with a old car.
>>
>> I’d assume at some point it will flip and become easier to live with a EV
>> than ICE car for more people.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Elon Musk and Tesla have really set the trend for electric cars in this country and I don't think that Ford or Chevy are going to change that. Pickup Trucks are work vehicles and are popular for that use. While the local punks might want to copy Daddy but be Woke at the same time might get an electric truck, the vast majority of PU's will continue to be the sort of thing that can be refueled from a jerry can in the field.
>
> In short, EV's will continue to be Tesla's or copies.
>
> And the cost will keep most people out of them. The cheap end of the Tesla's now cost what ICE cars do but everyone that buys them wants things like self-driving and dashboard navigation etc. which puts the price all the way back to the Tesla price of yesteryear. Are you going to pay a Ford F150 ICE for $37,000 or a Tesla for $127,000? That difference buys a LOT of gas unless you're social signaling like Krygowski.
>
> Chevy has canceled production of the Bolt because people want to social signal in a luxury car and not something that looks like it was made in China. The problem with Krygowski is that if his EV caught fire and burned his house down he would never admit it and would continue to tell us how great EV's are. Most people with EV's are this way. Where I ride are several pharmaceutical companies and the parking lots are wall to wall Tesla's. I imagine for most people that is a good idea since they live close and charging is minimal. But $90,000 price difference buys an awful lot of gas. Especially when the Federal subsidies on the price of electricity come off. Where do you suppose they are going to get the extra electricity when we are presently having blackouts all across the US. Even New York City had a major blackout in Harlem. (no wisecracks please)

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 8:35:50 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:04:21?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:23:25?AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am 04.09.2023 um 16:28 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2023 10:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even without net metering, solar power will offset some EV charging
>>>>>>>>>> expenses. I just logged into a customers Enphase Enlighten monitoring
>>>>>>>>>> account to check on todays production. It was rather foggy and cloudy
>>>>>>>>>> this morning, but their 5 kW(?) rooftop array produced about 20 kWh
>>>>>>>>>> for the day. At about 0.25 kWh/mile for a Tesla Model 3, that's good
>>>>>>>>>> for 80 miles/day:
>>>>>>>>>> <https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/>
>>>>>>>>>> Not great, but still helpful.
>>>>>>>> For some weird reason, European tests show a completely different order
>>>>>>>> of 'most economic EV'.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/autokosten/sparsamste-elektroautos/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I like the idea of solar panels to help charge an EV. Our problem is a
>>>>>>>>> huge old Siberian Elm tree shading the garage roof, which is otherwise
>>>>>>>>> well oriented for panels.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BTW, that table gives 0.3 kWh/mile for a 2019 Kia Niro EV. I just double
>>>>>>>>> checked our car's display. For the last 828 miles, the car's gone 4.1
>>>>>>>>> miles per kWh. That's 2.4 kWh/mile, significantly better than the table.
>>>>>>>> With EV, typical driving consitions play a much more important role than
>>>>>>>> with IV cars.
>>>>>>>> My Hyundai Kona is listed at 0.13 kWh/km in WLTP standard. I have
>>>>>>>> driven it at 0.08 kWh/km in city traffic (no need to charge for a couple
>>>>>>>> of weeks around home) when rarely exceeding 30 mph, and I have driven it
>>>>>>>> at 0.25 kWh/km (frequent charging stops on a long road trip) at highway
>>>>>>>> speeds of 80 mph.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rolf
>>>>>>> I think that your reference points out that the strength of the electric
>>>>>>> car is being ignored by attempting to match ICE automobiles. Can they go
>>>>>>> fast? Not as fast as some would try to insist though that is well over
>>>>>>> the safe speed for 99% of most drivers and 100% of speed limits, but the
>>>>>>> ability to be made energy efficient which is being avoided. Solid state
>>>>>>> batteries are now being manufactured and they will rapidly improve. This
>>>>>>> will allow EV's to be made lighter and with higher range. This of course
>>>>>>> with also improve their efficiency. So rather than stressing how fast an
>>>>>>> EV can go their marketing should be stressing their energy efficiency
>>>>>>> which they are not doing because the government is subsidizing poor
>>>>>>> efficiency so heavily.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People are beginning to see that the government is the enemy of freedom
>>>>>>> and with that large swaths of the government will be eliminated though
>>>>>>> the government and their best pals, the slime stream media, will fight
>>>>>>> it every inch of the way. Until the media returns to their job of
>>>>>>> reporting truly on the government over-reach they will not have any
>>>>>>> belief in their integrity and honesty. And even with a return to honesty
>>>>>>> it will be a long time before people have any trust at all in them. FOX
>>>>>>> had been in the position of opposing the leftist media but they chose to
>>>>>>> throw that away with the firing of Tucker Carlson. All they had to do
>>>>>>> was look at the polls that showed that they lost more than half of their
>>>>>>> audience or more to9 see that following the rest of the slime stream
>>>>>>> media over the cliff was a bad idea. But now it is too late. Tucker
>>>>>>> dislikes the idea but he will probably be forced into politics to make
>>>>>>> his opinions not just heard but acted upon. Are his opinions pertinent? Why has
>>>>>>> the US become the warmonger of the world? Where did the idea come from
>>>>>>> that we should free every other people on this globe. Beyond the fact
>>>>>>> that we cannot do that, in order to try we have to fulfill the
>>>>>>> predictions of President Eisenhower and become nothing more than a tool
>>>>>>> of the military-industrial complex. His worry has become our reality. If
>>>>>>> other people do not value their own freedom enough to revolt against
>>>>>>> things like the Taliban, why should we attempt to intervene? Shouldn't
>>>>>>> we give other people's the respect that they can have their own founding fathers?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WE're contemplating another trip (by car) out to Colorado. It'll be
>>>>>> about 1900 miles and we'll do it in three days, each way. An EV is not
>>>>>> even remotely able to accomodate us.
>>>>>>
>>>>> A EV certainly can drive 600+ miles only ones I’ve heard that can’t are the
>>>>> Nissan Leaf due to the battery cooling or rather lack of, it would refuse
>>>>> to charge as too hot.
>>>>>
>>>>> But any others certainly can cope with such distances, in America your best
>>>>> option would be a Tesla as they do have a decent network, in Europe much
>>>>> better networks so most EV ie they would do few hundred miles before
>>>>> needing a charge, which frankly folks should be having breaks as well over
>>>>> a what 10hr drive?
>>>>>
>>>>> If hotels have charging all the better.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’d also suggest even for America driving unless for pleasure 3 days to get
>>>>> somewhere is a rather a outlier, but essentially with caveat with American
>>>>> charging networks hence Tesla being the safer option though others might
>>>>> well be good enough now?
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>> 1900 miles in 3 days is about 630 miles per day. This would take two
>>>> charging stops of 30-45 minutes.. range is not the problem, charging infrastructure is.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> I have no patience. I have to be doing something, in other words,
>>> pursuing a goal. Sitting and waiting for the batteries to charge when
>>> I want to get moving is a high anxiety situation for me. I have the
>>> same issue sitting at the airport waiting for the plane to start
>>> loading.
>>>
>>> That's why riding bike trails works so well for me. It's pretty much
>>> mindless hard work in pursuit of a goal. I'm most relaxed when I'm
>>> working hard at something. Driving isn't hard work, but at least I'm
>>> doing something instead of sitting in plane.
>>>
>> Well that is a reason to drive and yes I can see a EV would probably be
>> tedious in that regard at least for longer distances than it’s maximum
>> range.
>>
>> For myself I like cafe stops be that car or bike so for example sitting 30
>> mins with cappuccino and cake while the car charges as I habitually do tend
>> to stop at one motorway services which has outside cafe and charging bays,
>> so for me nothing would change much.
>>
>> For me the EV hasn’t yet been built ie decent estate car and well that for
>> me a car is rather secondary method of transport it’s use is mainly back to
>> wales and so on, day to day it’s bike/bus/train depending on which makes
>> more sense. And as such I’m quite happy with a old car.
>>
>> I’d assume at some point it will flip and become easier to live with a EV
>> than ICE car for more people.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Elon Musk and Tesla have really set the trend for electric cars in this
> country and I don't think that Ford or Chevy are going to change that.
> Pickup Trucks are work vehicles and are popular for that use. While the
> local punks might want to copy Daddy but be Woke at the same time might
> get an electric truck, the vast majority of PU's will continue to be the
> sort of thing that can be refueled from a jerry can in the field.
>
> In short, EV's will continue to be Tesla's or copies.

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 1:28:17 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/5/2023 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 8:35:50 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> >>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:04:21?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:23:25?AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Am 04.09.2023 um 16:28 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> >>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2023 10:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Even without net metering, solar power will offset some EV charging
> >>>>>>>>>> expenses. I just logged into a customers Enphase Enlighten monitoring
> >>>>>>>>>> account to check on todays production. It was rather foggy and cloudy
> >>>>>>>>>> this morning, but their 5 kW(?) rooftop array produced about 20 kWh
> >>>>>>>>>> for the day. At about 0.25 kWh/mile for a Tesla Model 3, that's good
> >>>>>>>>>> for 80 miles/day:
> >>>>>>>>>> <https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/>
> >>>>>>>>>> Not great, but still helpful.
> >>>>>>>> For some weird reason, European tests show a completely different order
> >>>>>>>> of 'most economic EV'.
> >>>>>>>> <https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/autokosten/sparsamste-elektroautos/>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I like the idea of solar panels to help charge an EV. Our problem is a
> >>>>>>>>> huge old Siberian Elm tree shading the garage roof, which is otherwise
> >>>>>>>>> well oriented for panels.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> BTW, that table gives 0.3 kWh/mile for a 2019 Kia Niro EV. I just double
> >>>>>>>>> checked our car's display. For the last 828 miles, the car's gone 4.1
> >>>>>>>>> miles per kWh. That's 2.4 kWh/mile, significantly better than the table.
> >>>>>>>> With EV, typical driving consitions play a much more important role than
> >>>>>>>> with IV cars.
> >>>>>>>> My Hyundai Kona is listed at 0.13 kWh/km in WLTP standard. I have
> >>>>>>>> driven it at 0.08 kWh/km in city traffic (no need to charge for a couple
> >>>>>>>> of weeks around home) when rarely exceeding 30 mph, and I have driven it
> >>>>>>>> at 0.25 kWh/km (frequent charging stops on a long road trip) at highway
> >>>>>>>> speeds of 80 mph.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Rolf
> >>>>>>> I think that your reference points out that the strength of the electric
> >>>>>>> car is being ignored by attempting to match ICE automobiles. Can they go
> >>>>>>> fast? Not as fast as some would try to insist though that is well over
> >>>>>>> the safe speed for 99% of most drivers and 100% of speed limits, but the
> >>>>>>> ability to be made energy efficient which is being avoided. Solid state
> >>>>>>> batteries are now being manufactured and they will rapidly improve. This
> >>>>>>> will allow EV's to be made lighter and with higher range. This of course
> >>>>>>> with also improve their efficiency. So rather than stressing how fast an
> >>>>>>> EV can go their marketing should be stressing their energy efficiency
> >>>>>>> which they are not doing because the government is subsidizing poor
> >>>>>>> efficiency so heavily.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> People are beginning to see that the government is the enemy of freedom
> >>>>>>> and with that large swaths of the government will be eliminated though
> >>>>>>> the government and their best pals, the slime stream media, will fight
> >>>>>>> it every inch of the way. Until the media returns to their job of
> >>>>>>> reporting truly on the government over-reach they will not have any
> >>>>>>> belief in their integrity and honesty. And even with a return to honesty
> >>>>>>> it will be a long time before people have any trust at all in them. FOX
> >>>>>>> had been in the position of opposing the leftist media but they chose to
> >>>>>>> throw that away with the firing of Tucker Carlson. All they had to do
> >>>>>>> was look at the polls that showed that they lost more than half of their
> >>>>>>> audience or more to9 see that following the rest of the slime stream
> >>>>>>> media over the cliff was a bad idea. But now it is too late. Tucker
> >>>>>>> dislikes the idea but he will probably be forced into politics to make
> >>>>>>> his opinions not just heard but acted upon. Are his opinions pertinent? Why has
> >>>>>>> the US become the warmonger of the world? Where did the idea come from
> >>>>>>> that we should free every other people on this globe. Beyond the fact
> >>>>>>> that we cannot do that, in order to try we have to fulfill the
> >>>>>>> predictions of President Eisenhower and become nothing more than a tool
> >>>>>>> of the military-industrial complex. His worry has become our reality. If
> >>>>>>> other people do not value their own freedom enough to revolt against
> >>>>>>> things like the Taliban, why should we attempt to intervene? Shouldn't
> >>>>>>> we give other people's the respect that they can have their own founding fathers?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> WE're contemplating another trip (by car) out to Colorado. It'll be
> >>>>>> about 1900 miles and we'll do it in three days, each way. An EV is not
> >>>>>> even remotely able to accomodate us.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> A EV certainly can drive 600+ miles only ones I’ve heard that can’t are the
> >>>>> Nissan Leaf due to the battery cooling or rather lack of, it would refuse
> >>>>> to charge as too hot.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But any others certainly can cope with such distances, in America your best
> >>>>> option would be a Tesla as they do have a decent network, in Europe much
> >>>>> better networks so most EV ie they would do few hundred miles before
> >>>>> needing a charge, which frankly folks should be having breaks as well over
> >>>>> a what 10hr drive?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If hotels have charging all the better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I’d also suggest even for America driving unless for pleasure 3 days to get
> >>>>> somewhere is a rather a outlier, but essentially with caveat with American
> >>>>> charging networks hence Tesla being the safer option though others might
> >>>>> well be good enough now?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>
> >>>> 1900 miles in 3 days is about 630 miles per day. This would take two
> >>>> charging stops of 30-45 minutes.. range is not the problem, charging infrastructure is.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lou
> >>>
> >>> I have no patience. I have to be doing something, in other words,
> >>> pursuing a goal. Sitting and waiting for the batteries to charge when
> >>> I want to get moving is a high anxiety situation for me. I have the
> >>> same issue sitting at the airport waiting for the plane to start
> >>> loading.
> >>>
> >>> That's why riding bike trails works so well for me. It's pretty much
> >>> mindless hard work in pursuit of a goal. I'm most relaxed when I'm
> >>> working hard at something. Driving isn't hard work, but at least I'm
> >>> doing something instead of sitting in plane.
> >>>
> >> Well that is a reason to drive and yes I can see a EV would probably be
> >> tedious in that regard at least for longer distances than it’s maximum
> >> range.
> >>
> >> For myself I like cafe stops be that car or bike so for example sitting 30
> >> mins with cappuccino and cake while the car charges as I habitually do tend
> >> to stop at one motorway services which has outside cafe and charging bays,
> >> so for me nothing would change much.
> >>
> >> For me the EV hasn’t yet been built ie decent estate car and well that for
> >> me a car is rather secondary method of transport it’s use is mainly back to
> >> wales and so on, day to day it’s bike/bus/train depending on which makes
> >> more sense. And as such I’m quite happy with a old car.
> >>
> >> I’d assume at some point it will flip and become easier to live with a EV
> >> than ICE car for more people.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > Elon Musk and Tesla have really set the trend for electric cars in this country and I don't think that Ford or Chevy are going to change that. Pickup Trucks are work vehicles and are popular for that use. While the local punks might want to copy Daddy but be Woke at the same time might get an electric truck, the vast majority of PU's will continue to be the sort of thing that can be refueled from a jerry can in the field.
> >
> > In short, EV's will continue to be Tesla's or copies.
> >
> > And the cost will keep most people out of them. The cheap end of the Tesla's now cost what ICE cars do but everyone that buys them wants things like self-driving and dashboard navigation etc. which puts the price all the way back to the Tesla price of yesteryear. Are you going to pay a Ford F150 ICE for $37,000 or a Tesla for $127,000? That difference buys a LOT of gas unless you're social signaling like Krygowski.
> >
> > Chevy has canceled production of the Bolt because people want to social signal in a luxury car and not something that looks like it was made in China. The problem with Krygowski is that if his EV caught fire and burned his house down he would never admit it and would continue to tell us how great EV's are. Most people with EV's are this way. Where I ride are several pharmaceutical companies and the parking lots are wall to wall Tesla's. I imagine for most people that is a good idea since they live close and charging is minimal. But $90,000 price difference buys an awful lot of gas. Especially when the Federal subsidies on the price of electricity come off. Where do you suppose they are going to get the extra electricity when we are presently having blackouts all across the US. Even New York City had a major blackout in Harlem. (no wisecracks please)
> Ford for example, "is set to lose $4.5 billion more this
> year than expected on EV and battery production. "
>
> https://www.theautopian.com/yes-ford-is-moving-full-speed-ahead-on-evs-despite-losses/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 2:02:15 PM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 8:35:50 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> >>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:04:21?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:23:25?AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Am 04.09.2023 um 16:28 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> >>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2023 10:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Even without net metering, solar power will offset some EV charging
> >>>>>>>>>> expenses. I just logged into a customers Enphase Enlighten monitoring
> >>>>>>>>>> account to check on todays production. It was rather foggy and cloudy
> >>>>>>>>>> this morning, but their 5 kW(?) rooftop array produced about 20 kWh
> >>>>>>>>>> for the day. At about 0.25 kWh/mile for a Tesla Model 3, that's good
> >>>>>>>>>> for 80 miles/day:
> >>>>>>>>>> <https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/>
> >>>>>>>>>> Not great, but still helpful.
> >>>>>>>> For some weird reason, European tests show a completely different order
> >>>>>>>> of 'most economic EV'.
> >>>>>>>> <https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/autokosten/sparsamste-elektroautos/>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I like the idea of solar panels to help charge an EV. Our problem is a
> >>>>>>>>> huge old Siberian Elm tree shading the garage roof, which is otherwise
> >>>>>>>>> well oriented for panels.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> BTW, that table gives 0.3 kWh/mile for a 2019 Kia Niro EV. I just double
> >>>>>>>>> checked our car's display. For the last 828 miles, the car's gone 4.1
> >>>>>>>>> miles per kWh. That's 2.4 kWh/mile, significantly better than the table.
> >>>>>>>> With EV, typical driving consitions play a much more important role than
> >>>>>>>> with IV cars.
> >>>>>>>> My Hyundai Kona is listed at 0.13 kWh/km in WLTP standard. I have
> >>>>>>>> driven it at 0.08 kWh/km in city traffic (no need to charge for a couple
> >>>>>>>> of weeks around home) when rarely exceeding 30 mph, and I have driven it
> >>>>>>>> at 0.25 kWh/km (frequent charging stops on a long road trip) at highway
> >>>>>>>> speeds of 80 mph.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Rolf
> >>>>>>> I think that your reference points out that the strength of the electric
> >>>>>>> car is being ignored by attempting to match ICE automobiles. Can they go
> >>>>>>> fast? Not as fast as some would try to insist though that is well over
> >>>>>>> the safe speed for 99% of most drivers and 100% of speed limits, but the
> >>>>>>> ability to be made energy efficient which is being avoided. Solid state
> >>>>>>> batteries are now being manufactured and they will rapidly improve. This
> >>>>>>> will allow EV's to be made lighter and with higher range. This of course
> >>>>>>> with also improve their efficiency. So rather than stressing how fast an
> >>>>>>> EV can go their marketing should be stressing their energy efficiency
> >>>>>>> which they are not doing because the government is subsidizing poor
> >>>>>>> efficiency so heavily.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> People are beginning to see that the government is the enemy of freedom
> >>>>>>> and with that large swaths of the government will be eliminated though
> >>>>>>> the government and their best pals, the slime stream media, will fight
> >>>>>>> it every inch of the way. Until the media returns to their job of
> >>>>>>> reporting truly on the government over-reach they will not have any
> >>>>>>> belief in their integrity and honesty. And even with a return to honesty
> >>>>>>> it will be a long time before people have any trust at all in them. FOX
> >>>>>>> had been in the position of opposing the leftist media but they chose to
> >>>>>>> throw that away with the firing of Tucker Carlson. All they had to do
> >>>>>>> was look at the polls that showed that they lost more than half of their
> >>>>>>> audience or more to9 see that following the rest of the slime stream
> >>>>>>> media over the cliff was a bad idea. But now it is too late. Tucker
> >>>>>>> dislikes the idea but he will probably be forced into politics to make
> >>>>>>> his opinions not just heard but acted upon. Are his opinions pertinent? Why has
> >>>>>>> the US become the warmonger of the world? Where did the idea come from
> >>>>>>> that we should free every other people on this globe. Beyond the fact
> >>>>>>> that we cannot do that, in order to try we have to fulfill the
> >>>>>>> predictions of President Eisenhower and become nothing more than a tool
> >>>>>>> of the military-industrial complex. His worry has become our reality. If
> >>>>>>> other people do not value their own freedom enough to revolt against
> >>>>>>> things like the Taliban, why should we attempt to intervene? Shouldn't
> >>>>>>> we give other people's the respect that they can have their own founding fathers?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> WE're contemplating another trip (by car) out to Colorado. It'll be
> >>>>>> about 1900 miles and we'll do it in three days, each way. An EV is not
> >>>>>> even remotely able to accomodate us.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> A EV certainly can drive 600+ miles only ones I’ve heard that can’t are the
> >>>>> Nissan Leaf due to the battery cooling or rather lack of, it would refuse
> >>>>> to charge as too hot.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But any others certainly can cope with such distances, in America your best
> >>>>> option would be a Tesla as they do have a decent network, in Europe much
> >>>>> better networks so most EV ie they would do few hundred miles before
> >>>>> needing a charge, which frankly folks should be having breaks as well over
> >>>>> a what 10hr drive?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If hotels have charging all the better.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I’d also suggest even for America driving unless for pleasure 3 days to get
> >>>>> somewhere is a rather a outlier, but essentially with caveat with American
> >>>>> charging networks hence Tesla being the safer option though others might
> >>>>> well be good enough now?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>
> >>>> 1900 miles in 3 days is about 630 miles per day. This would take two
> >>>> charging stops of 30-45 minutes.. range is not the problem, charging infrastructure is.
> >>>>
> >>>> Lou
> >>>
> >>> I have no patience. I have to be doing something, in other words,
> >>> pursuing a goal. Sitting and waiting for the batteries to charge when
> >>> I want to get moving is a high anxiety situation for me. I have the
> >>> same issue sitting at the airport waiting for the plane to start
> >>> loading.
> >>>
> >>> That's why riding bike trails works so well for me. It's pretty much
> >>> mindless hard work in pursuit of a goal. I'm most relaxed when I'm
> >>> working hard at something. Driving isn't hard work, but at least I'm
> >>> doing something instead of sitting in plane.
> >>>
> >> Well that is a reason to drive and yes I can see a EV would probably be
> >> tedious in that regard at least for longer distances than it’s maximum
> >> range.
> >>
> >> For myself I like cafe stops be that car or bike so for example sitting 30
> >> mins with cappuccino and cake while the car charges as I habitually do tend
> >> to stop at one motorway services which has outside cafe and charging bays,
> >> so for me nothing would change much.
> >>
> >> For me the EV hasn’t yet been built ie decent estate car and well that for
> >> me a car is rather secondary method of transport it’s use is mainly back to
> >> wales and so on, day to day it’s bike/bus/train depending on which makes
> >> more sense. And as such I’m quite happy with a old car.
> >>
> >> I’d assume at some point it will flip and become easier to live with a EV
> >> than ICE car for more people.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > Elon Musk and Tesla have really set the trend for electric cars in this
> > country and I don't think that Ford or Chevy are going to change that.
> > Pickup Trucks are work vehicles and are popular for that use. While the
> > local punks might want to copy Daddy but be Woke at the same time might
> > get an electric truck, the vast majority of PU's will continue to be the
> > sort of thing that can be refueled from a jerry can in the field.
> >
> > In short, EV's will continue to be Tesla's or copies.
> Will not be able to use ICE trucks for ever, and the F-150 is apparently
> well thought out, ie it’s just a EV variant, unlike the Tesla truck which
> I’d be amazed if any ever made it off tarmac! And well legacy car makers
> are unsurprisingly good at making stuff work. The start ups are having to
> learn as they go.
>
> I’m sure though that Ford has had to put lot of money upfront to start
> making EV’s but this is the direction of travel.
> >
> > And the cost will keep most people out of them. The cheap end of the
> > Tesla's now cost what ICE cars do but everyone that buys them wants
> > things like self-driving and dashboard navigation etc. which puts the
> > price all the way back to the Tesla price of yesteryear. Are you going to
> > pay a Ford F150 ICE for $37,000 or a Tesla for $127,000? That difference
> > buys a LOT of gas unless you're social signaling like Krygowski.
> >
> When has buying new cars been finically wise!
> > Chevy has canceled production of the Bolt because people want to social
> > signal in a luxury car and not something that looks like it was made in
> > China. The problem with Krygowski is that if his EV caught fire and
> > burned his house down he would never admit it and would continue to tell
> > us how great EV's are. Most people with EV's are this way. Where I ride
> > are several pharmaceutical companies and the parking lots are wall to
> > wall Tesla's. I imagine for most people that is a good idea since they
> > live close and charging is minimal. But $90,000 price difference buys an
> > awful lot of gas. Especially when the Federal subsidies on the price of
> > electricity come off. Where do you suppose they are going to get the
> > extra electricity when we are presently having blackouts all across the
> > US. Even New York City had a major blackout in Harlem. (no wisecracks please)
> >
> Roger Merriman
The Tesla truck is nothing more than an electric Chevy El Camino - made to carry your bike to the trail head.

On 9/5/2023 4:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 1:28:17 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/5/2023 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 8:35:50 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:04:21?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:23:25?AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am 04.09.2023 um 16:28 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2023 10:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Even without net metering, solar power will offset some EV charging
>>>>>>>>>>>> expenses. I just logged into a customers Enphase Enlighten monitoring
>>>>>>>>>>>> account to check on todays production. It was rather foggy and cloudy
>>>>>>>>>>>> this morning, but their 5 kW(?) rooftop array produced about 20 kWh
>>>>>>>>>>>> for the day. At about 0.25 kWh/mile for a Tesla Model 3, that's good
>>>>>>>>>>>> for 80 miles/day:
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not great, but still helpful.
>>>>>>>>>> For some weird reason, European tests show a completely different order
>>>>>>>>>> of 'most economic EV'.
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/autokosten/sparsamste-elektroautos/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea of solar panels to help charge an EV. Our problem is a
>>>>>>>>>>> huge old Siberian Elm tree shading the garage roof, which is otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>> well oriented for panels.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> BTW, that table gives 0.3 kWh/mile for a 2019 Kia Niro EV. I just double
>>>>>>>>>>> checked our car's display. For the last 828 miles, the car's gone 4.1
>>>>>>>>>>> miles per kWh. That's 2.4 kWh/mile, significantly better than the table.
>>>>>>>>>> With EV, typical driving consitions play a much more important role than
>>>>>>>>>> with IV cars.
>>>>>>>>>> My Hyundai Kona is listed at 0.13 kWh/km in WLTP standard. I have
>>>>>>>>>> driven it at 0.08 kWh/km in city traffic (no need to charge for a couple
>>>>>>>>>> of weeks around home) when rarely exceeding 30 mph, and I have driven it
>>>>>>>>>> at 0.25 kWh/km (frequent charging stops on a long road trip) at highway
>>>>>>>>>> speeds of 80 mph.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rolf
>>>>>>>>> I think that your reference points out that the strength of the electric
>>>>>>>>> car is being ignored by attempting to match ICE automobiles. Can they go
>>>>>>>>> fast? Not as fast as some would try to insist though that is well over
>>>>>>>>> the safe speed for 99% of most drivers and 100% of speed limits, but the
>>>>>>>>> ability to be made energy efficient which is being avoided. Solid state
>>>>>>>>> batteries are now being manufactured and they will rapidly improve. This
>>>>>>>>> will allow EV's to be made lighter and with higher range. This of course
>>>>>>>>> with also improve their efficiency. So rather than stressing how fast an
>>>>>>>>> EV can go their marketing should be stressing their energy efficiency
>>>>>>>>> which they are not doing because the government is subsidizing poor
>>>>>>>>> efficiency so heavily.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> People are beginning to see that the government is the enemy of freedom
>>>>>>>>> and with that large swaths of the government will be eliminated though
>>>>>>>>> the government and their best pals, the slime stream media, will fight
>>>>>>>>> it every inch of the way. Until the media returns to their job of
>>>>>>>>> reporting truly on the government over-reach they will not have any
>>>>>>>>> belief in their integrity and honesty. And even with a return to honesty
>>>>>>>>> it will be a long time before people have any trust at all in them. FOX
>>>>>>>>> had been in the position of opposing the leftist media but they chose to
>>>>>>>>> throw that away with the firing of Tucker Carlson. All they had to do
>>>>>>>>> was look at the polls that showed that they lost more than half of their
>>>>>>>>> audience or more to9 see that following the rest of the slime stream
>>>>>>>>> media over the cliff was a bad idea. But now it is too late. Tucker
>>>>>>>>> dislikes the idea but he will probably be forced into politics to make
>>>>>>>>> his opinions not just heard but acted upon. Are his opinions pertinent? Why has
>>>>>>>>> the US become the warmonger of the world? Where did the idea come from
>>>>>>>>> that we should free every other people on this globe. Beyond the fact
>>>>>>>>> that we cannot do that, in order to try we have to fulfill the
>>>>>>>>> predictions of President Eisenhower and become nothing more than a tool
>>>>>>>>> of the military-industrial complex. His worry has become our reality. If
>>>>>>>>> other people do not value their own freedom enough to revolt against
>>>>>>>>> things like the Taliban, why should we attempt to intervene? Shouldn't
>>>>>>>>> we give other people's the respect that they can have their own founding fathers?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WE're contemplating another trip (by car) out to Colorado. It'll be
>>>>>>>> about 1900 miles and we'll do it in three days, each way. An EV is not
>>>>>>>> even remotely able to accomodate us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A EV certainly can drive 600+ miles only ones I’ve heard that can’t are the
>>>>>>> Nissan Leaf due to the battery cooling or rather lack of, it would refuse
>>>>>>> to charge as too hot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But any others certainly can cope with such distances, in America your best
>>>>>>> option would be a Tesla as they do have a decent network, in Europe much
>>>>>>> better networks so most EV ie they would do few hundred miles before
>>>>>>> needing a charge, which frankly folks should be having breaks as well over
>>>>>>> a what 10hr drive?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If hotels have charging all the better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’d also suggest even for America driving unless for pleasure 3 days to get
>>>>>>> somewhere is a rather a outlier, but essentially with caveat with American
>>>>>>> charging networks hence Tesla being the safer option though others might
>>>>>>> well be good enough now?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1900 miles in 3 days is about 630 miles per day. This would take two
>>>>>> charging stops of 30-45 minutes.. range is not the problem, charging infrastructure is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no patience. I have to be doing something, in other words,
>>>>> pursuing a goal. Sitting and waiting for the batteries to charge when
>>>>> I want to get moving is a high anxiety situation for me. I have the
>>>>> same issue sitting at the airport waiting for the plane to start
>>>>> loading.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's why riding bike trails works so well for me. It's pretty much
>>>>> mindless hard work in pursuit of a goal. I'm most relaxed when I'm
>>>>> working hard at something. Driving isn't hard work, but at least I'm
>>>>> doing something instead of sitting in plane.
>>>>>
>>>> Well that is a reason to drive and yes I can see a EV would probably be
>>>> tedious in that regard at least for longer distances than it’s maximum
>>>> range.
>>>>
>>>> For myself I like cafe stops be that car or bike so for example sitting 30
>>>> mins with cappuccino and cake while the car charges as I habitually do tend
>>>> to stop at one motorway services which has outside cafe and charging bays,
>>>> so for me nothing would change much.
>>>>
>>>> For me the EV hasn’t yet been built ie decent estate car and well that for
>>>> me a car is rather secondary method of transport it’s use is mainly back to
>>>> wales and so on, day to day it’s bike/bus/train depending on which makes
>>>> more sense. And as such I’m quite happy with a old car.
>>>>
>>>> I’d assume at some point it will flip and become easier to live with a EV
>>>> than ICE car for more people.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Elon Musk and Tesla have really set the trend for electric cars in this country and I don't think that Ford or Chevy are going to change that. Pickup Trucks are work vehicles and are popular for that use. While the local punks might want to copy Daddy but be Woke at the same time might get an electric truck, the vast majority of PU's will continue to be the sort of thing that can be refueled from a jerry can in the field.
>>>
>>> In short, EV's will continue to be Tesla's or copies.
>>>
>>> And the cost will keep most people out of them. The cheap end of the Tesla's now cost what ICE cars do but everyone that buys them wants things like self-driving and dashboard navigation etc. which puts the price all the way back to the Tesla price of yesteryear. Are you going to pay a Ford F150 ICE for $37,000 or a Tesla for $127,000? That difference buys a LOT of gas unless you're social signaling like Krygowski.
>>>
>>> Chevy has canceled production of the Bolt because people want to social signal in a luxury car and not something that looks like it was made in China. The problem with Krygowski is that if his EV caught fire and burned his house down he would never admit it and would continue to tell us how great EV's are. Most people with EV's are this way. Where I ride are several pharmaceutical companies and the parking lots are wall to wall Tesla's. I imagine for most people that is a good idea since they live close and charging is minimal. But $90,000 price difference buys an awful lot of gas. Especially when the Federal subsidies on the price of electricity come off. Where do you suppose they are going to get the extra electricity when we are presently having blackouts all across the US. Even New York City had a major blackout in Harlem. (no wisecracks please)
>> Ford for example, "is set to lose $4.5 billion more this
>> year than expected on EV and battery production. "
>>
>> https://www.theautopian.com/yes-ford-is-moving-full-speed-ahead-on-evs-despite-losses/
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Their board of directors are going to learn the price of going Woke. Woke is NOT the younger generation that is going to be future buyers, they are a crazy set of people that have crazy beliefs like men can become women by force of will and sterility surgery. That ANYONE would believe this shows that they are insane. Insane people do not make a good market.

On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 3:22:05 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/5/2023 4:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 1:28:17 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/5/2023 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 8:35:50 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
> >>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:04:21?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:23:25?AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Am 04.09.2023 um 16:28 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2023 10:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Even without net metering, solar power will offset some EV charging
> >>>>>>>>>>>> expenses. I just logged into a customers Enphase Enlighten monitoring
> >>>>>>>>>>>> account to check on todays production. It was rather foggy and cloudy
> >>>>>>>>>>>> this morning, but their 5 kW(?) rooftop array produced about 20 kWh
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for the day. At about 0.25 kWh/mile for a Tesla Model 3, that's good
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for 80 miles/day:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Not great, but still helpful.
> >>>>>>>>>> For some weird reason, European tests show a completely different order
> >>>>>>>>>> of 'most economic EV'.
> >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/autokosten/sparsamste-elektroautos/>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea of solar panels to help charge an EV. Our problem is a
> >>>>>>>>>>> huge old Siberian Elm tree shading the garage roof, which is otherwise
> >>>>>>>>>>> well oriented for panels.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> BTW, that table gives 0.3 kWh/mile for a 2019 Kia Niro EV. I just double
> >>>>>>>>>>> checked our car's display. For the last 828 miles, the car's gone 4.1
> >>>>>>>>>>> miles per kWh. That's 2.4 kWh/mile, significantly better than the table.
> >>>>>>>>>> With EV, typical driving consitions play a much more important role than
> >>>>>>>>>> with IV cars.
> >>>>>>>>>> My Hyundai Kona is listed at 0.13 kWh/km in WLTP standard. I have
> >>>>>>>>>> driven it at 0.08 kWh/km in city traffic (no need to charge for a couple
> >>>>>>>>>> of weeks around home) when rarely exceeding 30 mph, and I have driven it
> >>>>>>>>>> at 0.25 kWh/km (frequent charging stops on a long road trip) at highway
> >>>>>>>>>> speeds of 80 mph.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Rolf
> >>>>>>>>> I think that your reference points out that the strength of the electric
> >>>>>>>>> car is being ignored by attempting to match ICE automobiles. Can they go
> >>>>>>>>> fast? Not as fast as some would try to insist though that is well over
> >>>>>>>>> the safe speed for 99% of most drivers and 100% of speed limits, but the
> >>>>>>>>> ability to be made energy efficient which is being avoided. Solid state
> >>>>>>>>> batteries are now being manufactured and they will rapidly improve. This
> >>>>>>>>> will allow EV's to be made lighter and with higher range. This of course
> >>>>>>>>> with also improve their efficiency. So rather than stressing how fast an
> >>>>>>>>> EV can go their marketing should be stressing their energy efficiency
> >>>>>>>>> which they are not doing because the government is subsidizing poor
> >>>>>>>>> efficiency so heavily.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> People are beginning to see that the government is the enemy of freedom
> >>>>>>>>> and with that large swaths of the government will be eliminated though
> >>>>>>>>> the government and their best pals, the slime stream media, will fight
> >>>>>>>>> it every inch of the way. Until the media returns to their job of
> >>>>>>>>> reporting truly on the government over-reach they will not have any
> >>>>>>>>> belief in their integrity and honesty. And even with a return to honesty
> >>>>>>>>> it will be a long time before people have any trust at all in them. FOX
> >>>>>>>>> had been in the position of opposing the leftist media but they chose to
> >>>>>>>>> throw that away with the firing of Tucker Carlson. All they had to do
> >>>>>>>>> was look at the polls that showed that they lost more than half of their
> >>>>>>>>> audience or more to9 see that following the rest of the slime stream
> >>>>>>>>> media over the cliff was a bad idea. But now it is too late. Tucker
> >>>>>>>>> dislikes the idea but he will probably be forced into politics to make
> >>>>>>>>> his opinions not just heard but acted upon. Are his opinions pertinent? Why has
> >>>>>>>>> the US become the warmonger of the world? Where did the idea come from
> >>>>>>>>> that we should free every other people on this globe. Beyond the fact
> >>>>>>>>> that we cannot do that, in order to try we have to fulfill the
> >>>>>>>>> predictions of President Eisenhower and become nothing more than a tool
> >>>>>>>>> of the military-industrial complex. His worry has become our reality. If
> >>>>>>>>> other people do not value their own freedom enough to revolt against
> >>>>>>>>> things like the Taliban, why should we attempt to intervene? Shouldn't
> >>>>>>>>> we give other people's the respect that they can have their own founding fathers?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> WE're contemplating another trip (by car) out to Colorado. It'll be
> >>>>>>>> about 1900 miles and we'll do it in three days, each way. An EV is not
> >>>>>>>> even remotely able to accomodate us.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A EV certainly can drive 600+ miles only ones I’ve heard that can’t are the
> >>>>>>> Nissan Leaf due to the battery cooling or rather lack of, it would refuse
> >>>>>>> to charge as too hot.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But any others certainly can cope with such distances, in America your best
> >>>>>>> option would be a Tesla as they do have a decent network, in Europe much
> >>>>>>> better networks so most EV ie they would do few hundred miles before
> >>>>>>> needing a charge, which frankly folks should be having breaks as well over
> >>>>>>> a what 10hr drive?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If hotels have charging all the better.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I’d also suggest even for America driving unless for pleasure 3 days to get
> >>>>>>> somewhere is a rather a outlier, but essentially with caveat with American
> >>>>>>> charging networks hence Tesla being the safer option though others might
> >>>>>>> well be good enough now?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1900 miles in 3 days is about 630 miles per day. This would take two
> >>>>>> charging stops of 30-45 minutes.. range is not the problem, charging infrastructure is.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Lou
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have no patience. I have to be doing something, in other words,
> >>>>> pursuing a goal. Sitting and waiting for the batteries to charge when
> >>>>> I want to get moving is a high anxiety situation for me. I have the
> >>>>> same issue sitting at the airport waiting for the plane to start
> >>>>> loading.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's why riding bike trails works so well for me. It's pretty much
> >>>>> mindless hard work in pursuit of a goal. I'm most relaxed when I'm
> >>>>> working hard at something. Driving isn't hard work, but at least I'm
> >>>>> doing something instead of sitting in plane.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Well that is a reason to drive and yes I can see a EV would probably be
> >>>> tedious in that regard at least for longer distances than it’s maximum
> >>>> range.
> >>>>
> >>>> For myself I like cafe stops be that car or bike so for example sitting 30
> >>>> mins with cappuccino and cake while the car charges as I habitually do tend
> >>>> to stop at one motorway services which has outside cafe and charging bays,
> >>>> so for me nothing would change much.
> >>>>
> >>>> For me the EV hasn’t yet been built ie decent estate car and well that for
> >>>> me a car is rather secondary method of transport it’s use is mainly back to
> >>>> wales and so on, day to day it’s bike/bus/train depending on which makes
> >>>> more sense. And as such I’m quite happy with a old car.
> >>>>
> >>>> I’d assume at some point it will flip and become easier to live with a EV
> >>>> than ICE car for more people.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>
> >>> Elon Musk and Tesla have really set the trend for electric cars in this country and I don't think that Ford or Chevy are going to change that. Pickup Trucks are work vehicles and are popular for that use. While the local punks might want to copy Daddy but be Woke at the same time might get an electric truck, the vast majority of PU's will continue to be the sort of thing that can be refueled from a jerry can in the field.
> >>>
> >>> In short, EV's will continue to be Tesla's or copies.
> >>>
> >>> And the cost will keep most people out of them. The cheap end of the Tesla's now cost what ICE cars do but everyone that buys them wants things like self-driving and dashboard navigation etc. which puts the price all the way back to the Tesla price of yesteryear. Are you going to pay a Ford F150 ICE for $37,000 or a Tesla for $127,000? That difference buys a LOT of gas unless you're social signaling like Krygowski.
> >>>
> >>> Chevy has canceled production of the Bolt because people want to social signal in a luxury car and not something that looks like it was made in China. The problem with Krygowski is that if his EV caught fire and burned his house down he would never admit it and would continue to tell us how great EV's are. Most people with EV's are this way. Where I ride are several pharmaceutical companies and the parking lots are wall to wall Tesla's. I imagine for most people that is a good idea since they live close and charging is minimal. But $90,000 price difference buys an awful lot of gas. Especially when the Federal subsidies on the price of electricity come off. Where do you suppose they are going to get the extra electricity when we are presently having blackouts all across the US. Even New York City had a major blackout in Harlem. (no wisecracks please)
> >> Ford for example, "is set to lose $4.5 billion more this
> >> year than expected on EV and battery production. "
> >>
> >> https://www.theautopian.com/yes-ford-is-moving-full-speed-ahead-on-evs-despite-losses/
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > Their board of directors are going to learn the price of going Woke. Woke is NOT the younger generation that is going to be future buyers, they are a crazy set of people that have crazy beliefs like men can become women by force of will and sterility surgery. That ANYONE would believe this shows that they are insane. Insane people do not make a good market.
> Ford is not going away. In this racket, expensive policy
> failures lead to more expensive remedial policy failures.
> Between Ford's stock price and the unions, subsidies,
> regulatory exemptions and so on will be applied until some
> other manufacturer leads in the news, not Ford. Repeat as
> necessary.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Well, we need only watch. The unions are NOT going to like the balance sheet any more than the board of directors. The more money lost the fewer the employees. And remember that electric cars have almost no moving components for workers to build. Batteries are almost entirely automated construction. Electric motors likewise. You don't make a living by cutting your own throat. And the cost of electricity will sky-rocket. I'm surprised my bill had only gone up 40%. Where do you suppose that they are going to get electricity in California in a couple of dry years?

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 15:28:15 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/5/2023 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 8:35:50?AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:04:21?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:23:25?AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Am 04.09.2023 um 16:28 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2023 10:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Even without net metering, solar power will offset some EV charging
>>>>>>>>>>> expenses. I just logged into a customers Enphase Enlighten monitoring
>>>>>>>>>>> account to check on todays production. It was rather foggy and cloudy
>>>>>>>>>>> this morning, but their 5 kW(?) rooftop array produced about 20 kWh
>>>>>>>>>>> for the day. At about 0.25 kWh/mile for a Tesla Model 3, that's good
>>>>>>>>>>> for 80 miles/day:
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not great, but still helpful.
>>>>>>>>> For some weird reason, European tests show a completely different order
>>>>>>>>> of 'most economic EV'.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/autokosten/sparsamste-elektroautos/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea of solar panels to help charge an EV. Our problem is a
>>>>>>>>>> huge old Siberian Elm tree shading the garage roof, which is otherwise
>>>>>>>>>> well oriented for panels.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> BTW, that table gives 0.3 kWh/mile for a 2019 Kia Niro EV. I just double
>>>>>>>>>> checked our car's display. For the last 828 miles, the car's gone 4.1
>>>>>>>>>> miles per kWh. That's 2.4 kWh/mile, significantly better than the table.
>>>>>>>>> With EV, typical driving consitions play a much more important role than
>>>>>>>>> with IV cars.
>>>>>>>>> My Hyundai Kona is listed at 0.13 kWh/km in WLTP standard. I have
>>>>>>>>> driven it at 0.08 kWh/km in city traffic (no need to charge for a couple
>>>>>>>>> of weeks around home) when rarely exceeding 30 mph, and I have driven it
>>>>>>>>> at 0.25 kWh/km (frequent charging stops on a long road trip) at highway
>>>>>>>>> speeds of 80 mph.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rolf
>>>>>>>> I think that your reference points out that the strength of the electric
>>>>>>>> car is being ignored by attempting to match ICE automobiles. Can they go
>>>>>>>> fast? Not as fast as some would try to insist though that is well over
>>>>>>>> the safe speed for 99% of most drivers and 100% of speed limits, but the
>>>>>>>> ability to be made energy efficient which is being avoided. Solid state
>>>>>>>> batteries are now being manufactured and they will rapidly improve. This
>>>>>>>> will allow EV's to be made lighter and with higher range. This of course
>>>>>>>> with also improve their efficiency. So rather than stressing how fast an
>>>>>>>> EV can go their marketing should be stressing their energy efficiency
>>>>>>>> which they are not doing because the government is subsidizing poor
>>>>>>>> efficiency so heavily.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> People are beginning to see that the government is the enemy of freedom
>>>>>>>> and with that large swaths of the government will be eliminated though
>>>>>>>> the government and their best pals, the slime stream media, will fight
>>>>>>>> it every inch of the way. Until the media returns to their job of
>>>>>>>> reporting truly on the government over-reach they will not have any
>>>>>>>> belief in their integrity and honesty. And even with a return to honesty
>>>>>>>> it will be a long time before people have any trust at all in them. FOX
>>>>>>>> had been in the position of opposing the leftist media but they chose to
>>>>>>>> throw that away with the firing of Tucker Carlson. All they had to do
>>>>>>>> was look at the polls that showed that they lost more than half of their
>>>>>>>> audience or more to9 see that following the rest of the slime stream
>>>>>>>> media over the cliff was a bad idea. But now it is too late. Tucker
>>>>>>>> dislikes the idea but he will probably be forced into politics to make
>>>>>>>> his opinions not just heard but acted upon. Are his opinions pertinent? Why has
>>>>>>>> the US become the warmonger of the world? Where did the idea come from
>>>>>>>> that we should free every other people on this globe. Beyond the fact
>>>>>>>> that we cannot do that, in order to try we have to fulfill the
>>>>>>>> predictions of President Eisenhower and become nothing more than a tool
>>>>>>>> of the military-industrial complex. His worry has become our reality. If
>>>>>>>> other people do not value their own freedom enough to revolt against
>>>>>>>> things like the Taliban, why should we attempt to intervene? Shouldn't
>>>>>>>> we give other people's the respect that they can have their own founding fathers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WE're contemplating another trip (by car) out to Colorado. It'll be
>>>>>>> about 1900 miles and we'll do it in three days, each way. An EV is not
>>>>>>> even remotely able to accomodate us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A EV certainly can drive 600+ miles only ones I’ve heard that can’t are the
>>>>>> Nissan Leaf due to the battery cooling or rather lack of, it would refuse
>>>>>> to charge as too hot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But any others certainly can cope with such distances, in America your best
>>>>>> option would be a Tesla as they do have a decent network, in Europe much
>>>>>> better networks so most EV ie they would do few hundred miles before
>>>>>> needing a charge, which frankly folks should be having breaks as well over
>>>>>> a what 10hr drive?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If hotels have charging all the better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’d also suggest even for America driving unless for pleasure 3 days to get
>>>>>> somewhere is a rather a outlier, but essentially with caveat with American
>>>>>> charging networks hence Tesla being the safer option though others might
>>>>>> well be good enough now?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> 1900 miles in 3 days is about 630 miles per day. This would take two
>>>>> charging stops of 30-45 minutes.. range is not the problem, charging infrastructure is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> I have no patience. I have to be doing something, in other words,
>>>> pursuing a goal. Sitting and waiting for the batteries to charge when
>>>> I want to get moving is a high anxiety situation for me. I have the
>>>> same issue sitting at the airport waiting for the plane to start
>>>> loading.
>>>>
>>>> That's why riding bike trails works so well for me. It's pretty much
>>>> mindless hard work in pursuit of a goal. I'm most relaxed when I'm
>>>> working hard at something. Driving isn't hard work, but at least I'm
>>>> doing something instead of sitting in plane.
>>>>
>>> Well that is a reason to drive and yes I can see a EV would probably be
>>> tedious in that regard at least for longer distances than it’s maximum
>>> range.
>>>
>>> For myself I like cafe stops be that car or bike so for example sitting 30
>>> mins with cappuccino and cake while the car charges as I habitually do tend
>>> to stop at one motorway services which has outside cafe and charging bays,
>>> so for me nothing would change much.
>>>
>>> For me the EV hasn’t yet been built ie decent estate car and well that for
>>> me a car is rather secondary method of transport it’s use is mainly back to
>>> wales and so on, day to day it’s bike/bus/train depending on which makes
>>> more sense. And as such I’m quite happy with a old car.
>>>
>>> I’d assume at some point it will flip and become easier to live with a EV
>>> than ICE car for more people.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Elon Musk and Tesla have really set the trend for electric cars in this country and I don't think that Ford or Chevy are going to change that. Pickup Trucks are work vehicles and are popular for that use. While the local punks might want to copy Daddy but be Woke at the same time might get an electric truck, the vast majority of PU's will continue to be the sort of thing that can be refueled from a jerry can in the field.
>>
>> In short, EV's will continue to be Tesla's or copies.
>>
>> And the cost will keep most people out of them. The cheap end of the Tesla's now cost what ICE cars do but everyone that buys them wants things like self-driving and dashboard navigation etc. which puts the price all the way back to the Tesla price of yesteryear. Are you going to pay a Ford F150 ICE for $37,000 or a Tesla for $127,000? That difference buys a LOT of gas unless you're social signaling like Krygowski.
>>
>> Chevy has canceled production of the Bolt because people want to social signal in a luxury car and not something that looks like it was made in China. The problem with Krygowski is that if his EV caught fire and burned his house down he would never admit it and would continue to tell us how great EV's are. Most people with EV's are this way. Where I ride are several pharmaceutical companies and the parking lots are wall to wall Tesla's. I imagine for most people that is a good idea since they live close and charging is minimal. But $90,000 price difference buys an awful lot of gas. Especially when the Federal subsidies on the price of electricity come off. Where do you suppose they are going to get the extra electricity when we are presently having blackouts all across the US. Even New York City had a major blackout in Harlem. (no wisecracks please)
>
>Ford for example, "is set to lose $4.5 billion more this
>year than expected on EV and battery production. "
>
>https://www.theautopian.com/yes-ford-is-moving-full-speed-ahead-on-evs-despite-losses/

On Tue, 5 Sep 2023 15:40:29 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 3:22:05?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/5/2023 4:52 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 1:28:17?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> On 9/5/2023 3:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>> On Tuesday, September 5, 2023 at 8:35:50?AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> >>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> >>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
>> >>>>> <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 7:04:21?PM UTC+2, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> >>>>>>> Catrike Rider <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 4 Sep 2023 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> >>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, September 4, 2023 at 8:23:25?AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> Am 04.09.2023 um 16:28 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2023 10:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Even without net metering, solar power will offset some EV charging
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> expenses. I just logged into a customers Enphase Enlighten monitoring
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> account to check on todays production. It was rather foggy and cloudy
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> this morning, but their 5 kW(?) rooftop array produced about 20 kWh
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for the day. At about 0.25 kWh/mile for a Tesla Model 3, that's good
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> for 80 miles/day:
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <https://ecocostsavings.com/electric-car-kwh-per-mile-list/>
>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Not great, but still helpful.
>> >>>>>>>>>> For some weird reason, European tests show a completely different order
>> >>>>>>>>>> of 'most economic EV'.
>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/autokosten/sparsamste-elektroautos/>
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea of solar panels to help charge an EV. Our problem is a
>> >>>>>>>>>>> huge old Siberian Elm tree shading the garage roof, which is otherwise
>> >>>>>>>>>>> well oriented for panels.
>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>>> BTW, that table gives 0.3 kWh/mile for a 2019 Kia Niro EV. I just double
>> >>>>>>>>>>> checked our car's display. For the last 828 miles, the car's gone 4.1
>> >>>>>>>>>>> miles per kWh. That's 2.4 kWh/mile, significantly better than the table.
>> >>>>>>>>>> With EV, typical driving consitions play a much more important role than
>> >>>>>>>>>> with IV cars.
>> >>>>>>>>>> My Hyundai Kona is listed at 0.13 kWh/km in WLTP standard. I have
>> >>>>>>>>>> driven it at 0.08 kWh/km in city traffic (no need to charge for a couple
>> >>>>>>>>>> of weeks around home) when rarely exceeding 30 mph, and I have driven it
>> >>>>>>>>>> at 0.25 kWh/km (frequent charging stops on a long road trip) at highway
>> >>>>>>>>>> speeds of 80 mph.
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Rolf
>> >>>>>>>>> I think that your reference points out that the strength of the electric
>> >>>>>>>>> car is being ignored by attempting to match ICE automobiles. Can they go
>> >>>>>>>>> fast? Not as fast as some would try to insist though that is well over
>> >>>>>>>>> the safe speed for 99% of most drivers and 100% of speed limits, but the
>> >>>>>>>>> ability to be made energy efficient which is being avoided. Solid state
>> >>>>>>>>> batteries are now being manufactured and they will rapidly improve. This
>> >>>>>>>>> will allow EV's to be made lighter and with higher range. This of course
>> >>>>>>>>> with also improve their efficiency. So rather than stressing how fast an
>> >>>>>>>>> EV can go their marketing should be stressing their energy efficiency
>> >>>>>>>>> which they are not doing because the government is subsidizing poor
>> >>>>>>>>> efficiency so heavily.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> People are beginning to see that the government is the enemy of freedom
>> >>>>>>>>> and with that large swaths of the government will be eliminated though
>> >>>>>>>>> the government and their best pals, the slime stream media, will fight
>> >>>>>>>>> it every inch of the way. Until the media returns to their job of
>> >>>>>>>>> reporting truly on the government over-reach they will not have any
>> >>>>>>>>> belief in their integrity and honesty. And even with a return to honesty
>> >>>>>>>>> it will be a long time before people have any trust at all in them. FOX
>> >>>>>>>>> had been in the position of opposing the leftist media but they chose to
>> >>>>>>>>> throw that away with the firing of Tucker Carlson. All they had to do
>> >>>>>>>>> was look at the polls that showed that they lost more than half of their
>> >>>>>>>>> audience or more to9 see that following the rest of the slime stream
>> >>>>>>>>> media over the cliff was a bad idea. But now it is too late. Tucker
>> >>>>>>>>> dislikes the idea but he will probably be forced into politics to make
>> >>>>>>>>> his opinions not just heard but acted upon. Are his opinions pertinent? Why has
>> >>>>>>>>> the US become the warmonger of the world? Where did the idea come from
>> >>>>>>>>> that we should free every other people on this globe. Beyond the fact
>> >>>>>>>>> that we cannot do that, in order to try we have to fulfill the
>> >>>>>>>>> predictions of President Eisenhower and become nothing more than a tool
>> >>>>>>>>> of the military-industrial complex. His worry has become our reality. If
>> >>>>>>>>> other people do not value their own freedom enough to revolt against
>> >>>>>>>>> things like the Taliban, why should we attempt to intervene? Shouldn't
>> >>>>>>>>> we give other people's the respect that they can have their own founding fathers?
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> WE're contemplating another trip (by car) out to Colorado. It'll be
>> >>>>>>>> about 1900 miles and we'll do it in three days, each way. An EV is not
>> >>>>>>>> even remotely able to accomodate us.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> A EV certainly can drive 600+ miles only ones I’ve heard that can’t are the
>> >>>>>>> Nissan Leaf due to the battery cooling or rather lack of, it would refuse
>> >>>>>>> to charge as too hot.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> But any others certainly can cope with such distances, in America your best
>> >>>>>>> option would be a Tesla as they do have a decent network, in Europe much
>> >>>>>>> better networks so most EV ie they would do few hundred miles before
>> >>>>>>> needing a charge, which frankly folks should be having breaks as well over
>> >>>>>>> a what 10hr drive?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If hotels have charging all the better.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I’d also suggest even for America driving unless for pleasure 3 days to get
>> >>>>>>> somewhere is a rather a outlier, but essentially with caveat with American
>> >>>>>>> charging networks hence Tesla being the safer option though others might
>> >>>>>>> well be good enough now?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 1900 miles in 3 days is about 630 miles per day. This would take two
>> >>>>>> charging stops of 30-45 minutes.. range is not the problem, charging infrastructure is.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Lou
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I have no patience. I have to be doing something, in other words,
>> >>>>> pursuing a goal. Sitting and waiting for the batteries to charge when
>> >>>>> I want to get moving is a high anxiety situation for me. I have the
>> >>>>> same issue sitting at the airport waiting for the plane to start
>> >>>>> loading.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> That's why riding bike trails works so well for me. It's pretty much
>> >>>>> mindless hard work in pursuit of a goal. I'm most relaxed when I'm
>> >>>>> working hard at something. Driving isn't hard work, but at least I'm
>> >>>>> doing something instead of sitting in plane.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>> Well that is a reason to drive and yes I can see a EV would probably be
>> >>>> tedious in that regard at least for longer distances than it’s maximum
>> >>>> range.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> For myself I like cafe stops be that car or bike so for example sitting 30
>> >>>> mins with cappuccino and cake while the car charges as I habitually do tend
>> >>>> to stop at one motorway services which has outside cafe and charging bays,
>> >>>> so for me nothing would change much.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> For me the EV hasn’t yet been built ie decent estate car and well that for
>> >>>> me a car is rather secondary method of transport it’s use is mainly back to
>> >>>> wales and so on, day to day it’s bike/bus/train depending on which makes
>> >>>> more sense. And as such I’m quite happy with a old car.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I’d assume at some point it will flip and become easier to live with a EV
>> >>>> than ICE car for more people.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Roger Merriman
>> >>>
>> >>> Elon Musk and Tesla have really set the trend for electric cars in this country and I don't think that Ford or Chevy are going to change that. Pickup Trucks are work vehicles and are popular for that use. While the local punks might want to copy Daddy but be Woke at the same time might get an electric truck, the vast majority of PU's will continue to be the sort of thing that can be refueled from a jerry can in the field.
>> >>>
>> >>> In short, EV's will continue to be Tesla's or copies.
>> >>>
>> >>> And the cost will keep most people out of them. The cheap end of the Tesla's now cost what ICE cars do but everyone that buys them wants things like self-driving and dashboard navigation etc. which puts the price all the way back to the Tesla price of yesteryear. Are you going to pay a Ford F150 ICE for $37,000 or a Tesla for $127,000? That difference buys a LOT of gas unless you're social signaling like Krygowski.
>> >>>
>> >>> Chevy has canceled production of the Bolt because people want to social signal in a luxury car and not something that looks like it was made in China. The problem with Krygowski is that if his EV caught fire and burned his house down he would never admit it and would continue to tell us how great EV's are. Most people with EV's are this way. Where I ride are several pharmaceutical companies and the parking lots are wall to wall Tesla's. I imagine for most people that is a good idea since they live close and charging is minimal. But $90,000 price difference buys an awful lot of gas. Especially when the Federal subsidies on the price of electricity come off. Where do you suppose they are going to get the extra electricity when we are presently having blackouts all across the US. Even New York City had a major blackout in Harlem. (no wisecracks please)
>> >> Ford for example, "is set to lose $4.5 billion more this
>> >> year than expected on EV and battery production. "
>> >>
>> >> https://www.theautopian.com/yes-ford-is-moving-full-speed-ahead-on-evs-despite-losses/
>> >> --
>> >> Andrew Muzi
>> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> >
>> > Their board of directors are going to learn the price of going Woke. Woke is NOT the younger generation that is going to be future buyers, they are a crazy set of people that have crazy beliefs like men can become women by force of will and sterility surgery. That ANYONE would believe this shows that they are insane. Insane people do not make a good market.
>> Ford is not going away. In this racket, expensive policy
>> failures lead to more expensive remedial policy failures.
>> Between Ford's stock price and the unions, subsidies,
>> regulatory exemptions and so on will be applied until some
>> other manufacturer leads in the news, not Ford. Repeat as
>> necessary.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>Well, we need only watch. The unions are NOT going to like the balance sheet any more than the board of directors. The more money lost the fewer the employees. And remember that electric cars have almost no moving components for workers to build. Batteries are almost entirely automated construction. Electric motors likewise. You don't make a living by cutting your own throat. And the cost of electricity will sky-rocket. I'm surprised my bill had only gone up 40%. Where do you suppose that they are going to get electricity in California in a couple of dry years?

On 9/5/2023 4:01 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> ... lots of predictions.

Does anyone have a record of a Kunich prediction that actually came
true? I'm remembering his governor's predicted recall, the last
presidential election, the last congressional elections, during which
Tom's predictions were perfectly wrong, as usual.

I guess I could write some of his predictions down, just for grins.

--
- Frank Krygowski