https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19 a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Most people responding in the comments section of that article think that it was a deliberate thing.

Cheers

On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 6:18:19 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Well, after all, triathletes are in a funny riding position and really aren't bicycle racers so things like this are bound to happen.

On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 4:02:04 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19 a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
> > --
> > Andrew Muzi
> > a...@yellowjersey.org
> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> Most people responding in the comments section of that article think that it was a deliberate thing.
>
> Cheers
Most people responding to a newspaper comment section don't even ride bicycles

On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19 a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Most people responding in the comments section of that article think that it was a deliberate thing.

That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to deliberately take
out a teammate. And it sounds like they got along fine afterward.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 7:00:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19 a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> >> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> > Most people responding in the comments section of that article think that it was a deliberate thing.
> That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to deliberately take
> out a teammate. And it sounds like they got along fine afterward.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself, "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 7:05:55 AM UTC-7, William Crowell wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 7:00:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19 a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> > >> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
> > >> --
> > >> Andrew Muzi
> > >> a...@yellowjersey.org
> > >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > >
> > > Most people responding in the comments section of that article think that it was a deliberate thing.
> > That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to deliberately take
> > out a teammate. And it sounds like they got along fine afterward.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself, "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.

It was the men pulling stunts like that that worried my wife so she usually road well off of the front.

On 9/6/2023 9:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19 a.m. UTC-5,
>> AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>> Most people responding in  the comments section of that
>> article think that it was a deliberate thing.
>
> That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to
> deliberately take out a teammate. And it sounds like they
> got along fine afterward.
>

I agree. Probably an error.
Hooking is more common in US Cat2 criteriums (because the
stakes are so low) but in triathlon not so much.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9/7/2023 10:05 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>
> Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself, "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.

On group rides, I'm very choosy about whom I ride near. I've known very
fine people who were simply incompetent. Example: an athletic woman and
triathlon competitor who frequently twitched left and right six inches
or more while riding a straight line. A guy who would surge and coast,
rather than riding at the common group speed, and who would sometimes
try to sneak past on one's right side without warning. Examples abound.

When I see someone riding unsteadily or unpredictably, I stay well away.
I do the same with unpredictable motorists, and with motorists whose
cars are visibly damaged.

OTOH, riding with truly competent riders can be great fun. I've had fun
in well organized pace lines over the years, and on fast distance rides,
not to mention countless wonderful rides with family and close friends.

Choose your riding partners well.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/7/2023 11:52 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/7/2023 10:05 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>
>> Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride
>> near Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail.
>> I was riding behind someone who was showing off by riding
>> with her hands off the bars. She was gaining on another
>> rider, and I kept thinking to myself, "hey, she'd better
>> get her hands back on the bars before she runs into him",
>> but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands,
>> knocked him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have
>> it surgically replaced. After that I decided not to do any
>> more group rides.
>
> On group rides, I'm very choosy about whom I ride near. I've
> known very fine people who were simply incompetent. Example:
> an athletic woman and triathlon competitor who frequently
> twitched left and right six inches or more while riding a
> straight line. A guy who would surge and coast, rather than
> riding at the common group speed, and who would sometimes
> try to sneak past on one's right side without warning.
> Examples abound.
>
> When I see someone riding unsteadily or unpredictably, I
> stay well away. I do the same with unpredictable motorists,
> and with motorists whose cars are visibly damaged.
>
> OTOH, riding with truly competent riders can be great fun.
> I've had fun in well organized pace lines over the years,
> and on fast distance rides, not to mention countless
> wonderful rides with family and close friends.
>
> Choose your riding partners well.
>

+1

Not only cyclists:
https://cwbchicago.com/2023/09/man-shot-at-driver-after-road-rage-incident-on-kennedy-expressway-prosecutors-say.html
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
<retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 7:00:18?PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19?a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> >> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
>> >> --
>> >> Andrew Muzi
>> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> >
>> > Most people responding in the comments section of that article think that it was a deliberate thing.
>> That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to deliberately take
>> out a teammate. And it sounds like they got along fine afterward.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself, "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.

I've never done a group ride and I never will, but I've been run off
the road twice by group riders to busy jabbering to watch where
they're going.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 12:52:31 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 9/7/2023 10:05 AM, William Crowell wrote:
>>
>> Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself, "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.
>
>On group rides, I'm very choosy about whom I ride near. I've known very
>fine people who were simply incompetent. Example: an athletic woman and
>triathlon competitor who frequently twitched left and right six inches
>or more while riding a straight line. A guy who would surge and coast,
>rather than riding at the common group speed, and who would sometimes
>try to sneak past on one's right side without warning. Examples abound.
>
>When I see someone riding unsteadily or unpredictably, I stay well away.
>I do the same with unpredictable motorists, and with motorists whose
>cars are visibly damaged.
>
>OTOH, riding with truly competent riders can be great fun. I've had fun
>in well organized pace lines over the years, and on fast distance rides,
>not to mention countless wonderful rides with family and close friends.
>
>Choose your riding partners well.

Better yet, ride alone. Follow the leader is a children's game. Grow
up, exert your individuality. I want nothing to do with people who
buy and wear matching shirts and jackets, unless they need to do it to
identify the competitive team they're on.

On Thu, 07 Sep 2023 15:31:12 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
><retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 7:00:18?PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>> > On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19?a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>> >> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
>>> >> --
>>> >> Andrew Muzi
>>> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>> >
>>> > Most people responding in the comments section of that article think that it was a deliberate thing.
>>> That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to deliberately take
>>> out a teammate. And it sounds like they got along fine afterward.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself, "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.
>
>
>I've never done a group ride and I never will, but I've been run off
>the road twice by group riders to busy jabbering to watch where
>they're going.

The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
things to them?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:45:44 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>
> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
> things to them?

Oh, good grief! It's not "dictated" to you. A person joins a group ride by choice. They do it
because for them, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

One advantage may be social company. People of normal, healthy psychology enjoy spending
time with others who share their interests. Other advantages are riding new roads and seeing
new scenery that one might not find on their own. And learning from others - for example,
learning better riding techniques, discussing equipment choices, etc. Another benefit may be
getting assistance from others, anything from help fixing a flat, to un-bending a rear derailleur
to help in the form of drafting to deal with raging headwinds.

I suspect those who have never experienced such benefits may have done relatively little
riding, and/or may be social cripples of some sort.

- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 08:45:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Sep 2023 15:31:12 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
>><retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 7:00:18?PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>> > On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19?a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> >> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Andrew Muzi
>>>> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>> >
>>>> > Most people responding in the comments section of that article think that it was a deliberate thing.
>>>> That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to deliberately take
>>>> out a teammate. And it sounds like they got along fine afterward.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself, "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.
>>
>>
>>I've never done a group ride and I never will, but I've been run off
>>the road twice by group riders to busy jabbering to watch where
>>they're going.
>
>The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>things to them?
>

Some people like being told what to do. Others like telling people
what to do. Some just like wearing matching shirts and jackets.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 22:12:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:45:44?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>
>> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>> things to them?
>
>Oh, good grief! It's not "dictated" to you. A person joins a group ride by choice.

...Some people choose to be dictate to.

> They do it
>because for them, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Hmmm, same reason I do all the things that Krygowski disapproves
of......

>One advantage may be social company. People of normal, healthy psychology enjoy spending
>time with others who share their interests.

Some normal, healthy people are primarily motivated extrinsically and
need to be around other people. Other normal, healthy people are
intrinsically motivated and derive satisfaction from simply doing what
they do.

>Other advantages are riding new roads and seeing
>new scenery that one might not find on their own. And learning from others - for example,
>learning better riding techniques, discussing equipment choices, etc. Another benefit may be
>getting assistance from others, anything from help fixing a flat, to un-bending a rear derailleur

Safety in numbers.... the preverbal herd instinct.

>to help in the form of drafting to deal with raging headwinds.

Raging????

>I suspect those who have never experienced such benefits may have done relatively little
>riding, and/or may be social cripples of some sort.

More likely, many people, myself included, don't see any benefits, and
lots of detriments in playing follow the leader.

>- Frank Krygowski

--

Yes, little fella, I ride a Catrike, always alone, mostly on bike
trails, carrying a gun, and never without attaching my feet to the
pedals. Nowdays,I always truck my bike to where I start my ride. I
tried and found riding a bike to the grocery store and other routine
trips to be boring. I hope I am never reduced to riding like that.
I am arrogantly proud of my bicycle rides and all my other
accomplishments. As an introvert, I also value my solitude,
where I'm free to tune into my own inner monologue.

On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 03:12:40 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 22:12:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:45:44?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>>> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>>> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>>> things to them?
>>
>>Oh, good grief! It's not "dictated" to you. A person joins a group ride by choice.
>
>..Some people choose to be dictate to.
>
>> They do it
>>because for them, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
>
>Hmmm, same reason I do all the things that Krygowski disapproves
>of......
>
>>One advantage may be social company. People of normal, healthy psychology enjoy spending
>>time with others who share their interests.
>
>Some normal, healthy people are primarily motivated extrinsically and
>need to be around other people. Other normal, healthy people are
>intrinsically motivated and derive satisfaction from simply doing what
>they do.
>
>>Other advantages are riding new roads and seeing
>>new scenery that one might not find on their own. And learning from others - for example,
>>learning better riding techniques, discussing equipment choices, etc. Another benefit may be
>>getting assistance from others, anything from help fixing a flat, to un-bending a rear derailleur
>
>Safety in numbers.... the preverbal herd instinct.
>
>>to help in the form of drafting to deal with raging headwinds.
>
>Raging????
>
>>I suspect those who have never experienced such benefits may have done relatively little
>>riding, and/or may be social cripples of some sort.
>
>More likely, many people, myself included, don't see any benefits, and
>lots of detriments in playing follow the leader.
>
>>- Frank Krygowski

More rationalization from our resident bigot.

"They do it because for them, the advantages outweigh the
disadvantages."

One can only speculate what these advantages are? Must ride with the
group? Must go where the group goes? Must stop when the group stops?

Oh Yes, I forgot one. Frankie gets to play Big Chief, telling every
one else what to do.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:02:01 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 03:12:40 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 22:12:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:45:44?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>>>> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>>>> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>>>> things to them?
>>>
>>>Oh, good grief! It's not "dictated" to you. A person joins a group ride by choice.
>>
>>..Some people choose to be dictate to.
>>
>>> They do it
>>>because for them, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
>>
>>Hmmm, same reason I do all the things that Krygowski disapproves
>>of......
>>
>>>One advantage may be social company. People of normal, healthy psychology enjoy spending
>>>time with others who share their interests.
>>
>>Some normal, healthy people are primarily motivated extrinsically and
>>need to be around other people. Other normal, healthy people are
>>intrinsically motivated and derive satisfaction from simply doing what
>>they do.
>>
>>>Other advantages are riding new roads and seeing
>>>new scenery that one might not find on their own. And learning from others - for example,
>>>learning better riding techniques, discussing equipment choices, etc. Another benefit may be
>>>getting assistance from others, anything from help fixing a flat, to un-bending a rear derailleur
>>
>>Safety in numbers.... the preverbal herd instinct.
>>
>>>to help in the form of drafting to deal with raging headwinds.
>>
>>Raging????
>>
>>>I suspect those who have never experienced such benefits may have done relatively little
>>>riding, and/or may be social cripples of some sort.
>>
>>More likely, many people, myself included, don't see any benefits, and
>>lots of detriments in playing follow the leader.
>>
>>>- Frank Krygowski
>
>More rationalization from our resident bigot.
>
>"They do it because for them, the advantages outweigh the
>disadvantages."
>
>One can only speculate what these advantages are? Must ride with the
>group? Must go where the group goes? Must stop when the group stops?
>
>Oh Yes, I forgot one. Frankie gets to play Big Chief, telling every
>one else what to do.

In my opinion, the folks whose emotional well being is dependant on
social interaction (needy people, see below) are the real cripples.

https://hackspirit.com/needy-people-7-things-they-do-and-how-to-deal-with-them/

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 08:45:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 07 Sep 2023 15:31:12 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
>>> <retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 7:00:18?PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19?a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most people responding in the comments section of that article think
>>>>>> that it was a deliberate thing.
>>>>> That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to deliberately take
>>>>> out a teammate. And it sounds like they got along fine afterward.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>> Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near
>>>> Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding
>>>> behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the
>>>> bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself,
>>>> "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into
>>>> him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked
>>>> him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically
>>>> replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've never done a group ride and I never will, but I've been run off
>>> the road twice by group riders to busy jabbering to watch where
>>> they're going.
>>
>> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>> things to them?
>>
>
> Some people like being told what to do. Others like telling people
> what to do. Some just like wearing matching shirts and jackets.
>
I’m sure folks have all sorts of reasons. For myself I mostly ride solo but
am also a member of club, so tomorrow I’ll lead a small group down to
Brighton via lanes and gravel roads.

I like being a touch more sociable, and treat them as such. Ie I’m faster
etc solo.

Note also some folks can’t fix stuff even minor so aren’t very self
sufficient.

Does depend on the club some want to do chain gang and rotation even at the
more social end which I’d say is a bit over the top, others are more
relaxed.

Ie pick your club wisely.

Roger Merriman

On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 04:26:57 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:02:01 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 03:12:40 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 22:12:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:45:44?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>>>>> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>>>>> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>>>>> things to them?
>>>>
>>>>Oh, good grief! It's not "dictated" to you. A person joins a group ride by choice.
>>>
>>>..Some people choose to be dictate to.
>>>
>>>> They do it
>>>>because for them, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
>>>
>>>Hmmm, same reason I do all the things that Krygowski disapproves
>>>of......
>>>
>>>>One advantage may be social company. People of normal, healthy psychology enjoy spending
>>>>time with others who share their interests.
>>>
>>>Some normal, healthy people are primarily motivated extrinsically and
>>>need to be around other people. Other normal, healthy people are
>>>intrinsically motivated and derive satisfaction from simply doing what
>>>they do.
>>>
>>>>Other advantages are riding new roads and seeing
>>>>new scenery that one might not find on their own. And learning from others - for example,
>>>>learning better riding techniques, discussing equipment choices, etc. Another benefit may be
>>>>getting assistance from others, anything from help fixing a flat, to un-bending a rear derailleur
>>>
>>>Safety in numbers.... the preverbal herd instinct.
>>>
>>>>to help in the form of drafting to deal with raging headwinds.
>>>
>>>Raging????
>>>
>>>>I suspect those who have never experienced such benefits may have done relatively little
>>>>riding, and/or may be social cripples of some sort.
>>>
>>>More likely, many people, myself included, don't see any benefits, and
>>>lots of detriments in playing follow the leader.
>>>
>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>
>>More rationalization from our resident bigot.
>>
>>"They do it because for them, the advantages outweigh the
>>disadvantages."
>>
>>One can only speculate what these advantages are? Must ride with the
>>group? Must go where the group goes? Must stop when the group stops?
>>
>>Oh Yes, I forgot one. Frankie gets to play Big Chief, telling every
>>one else what to do.
>
>
>In my opinion, the folks whose emotional well being is dependant on
>social interaction (needy people, see below) are the real cripples.
>
>https://hackspirit.com/needy-people-7-things-they-do-and-how-to-deal-with-them/

Well, if your aim in life is to impress others with what a marvelous
and important person you are I suppose that riding in a group is
rather important to you. "Look Mother, all those people and they are
listening to ME!"

But, on the other hand, if you are reasonably satisfied with your
position in life then group rides are probably not on the agenda.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 09:11:42 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 08:45:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 07 Sep 2023 15:31:12 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
>>>> <retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 7:00:18?PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19?a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most people responding in the comments section of that article think
>>>>>>> that it was a deliberate thing.
>>>>>> That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to deliberately take
>>>>>> out a teammate. And it sounds like they got along fine afterward.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>> Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near
>>>>> Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding
>>>>> behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the
>>>>> bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself,
>>>>> "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into
>>>>> him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked
>>>>> him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically
>>>>> replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've never done a group ride and I never will, but I've been run off
>>>> the road twice by group riders to busy jabbering to watch where
>>>> they're going.
>>>
>>> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>>> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>>> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>>> things to them?
>>>
>>
>> Some people like being told what to do. Others like telling people
>> what to do. Some just like wearing matching shirts and jackets.
>>
>I’m sure folks have all sorts of reasons. For myself I mostly ride solo but
>am also a member of club, so tomorrow I’ll lead a small group down to
>Brighton via lanes and gravel roads.
>
>I like being a touch more sociable, and treat them as such. Ie I’m faster
>etc solo.
>
>Note also some folks can’t fix stuff even minor so aren’t very self
>sufficient.
>
>Does depend on the club some want to do chain gang and rotation even at the
>more social end which I’d say is a bit over the top, others are more
>relaxed.
>
>Ie pick your club wisely.
>
>Roger Merriman

The last club I belonged to was a 4H club when I was 13/14 years old
and that was only because a particular young lady was a member of that
club.

On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 05:27:52 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 09:11:42 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 08:45:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 07 Sep 2023 15:31:12 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
>>>>> <retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 7:00:18?PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19?a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most people responding in the comments section of that article think
>>>>>>>> that it was a deliberate thing.
>>>>>>> That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to deliberately take
>>>>>>> out a teammate. And it sounds like they got along fine afterward.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near
>>>>>> Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding
>>>>>> behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the
>>>>>> bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself,
>>>>>> "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into
>>>>>> him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked
>>>>>> him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically
>>>>>> replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never done a group ride and I never will, but I've been run off
>>>>> the road twice by group riders to busy jabbering to watch where
>>>>> they're going.
>>>>
>>>> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>>>> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>>>> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>>>> things to them?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Some people like being told what to do. Others like telling people
>>> what to do. Some just like wearing matching shirts and jackets.
>>>
>>I’m sure folks have all sorts of reasons. For myself I mostly ride solo but
>>am also a member of club, so tomorrow I’ll lead a small group down to
>>Brighton via lanes and gravel roads.
>>
>>I like being a touch more sociable, and treat them as such. Ie I’m faster
>>etc solo.
>>
>>Note also some folks can’t fix stuff even minor so aren’t very self
>>sufficient.
>>
>>Does depend on the club some want to do chain gang and rotation even at the
>>more social end which I’d say is a bit over the top, others are more
>>relaxed.
>>
>>Ie pick your club wisely.
>>
>>Roger Merriman
>
>The last club I belonged to was a 4H club when I was 13/14 years old
>and that was only because a particular young lady was a member of that
>club.

My mother was a 4H agent. Visited various groups and taught classes,
sewing and cooking, I think. She also managed affairs at county fairs
on the woman's side. The guys raising cattle and such had another
agent to take care of them.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 17:02:57 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 05:27:52 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 09:11:42 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 08:45:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 07 Sep 2023 15:31:12 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 07:05:53 -0700 (PDT), William Crowell
>>>>>> <retroguybilly@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 7:00:18?PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 9/6/2023 7:02 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, September 6, 2023 at 8:18:19?a.m. UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2023/09/06/new-zealand-triathlete-nicole-van-der-kaay-involved-in-nasty-wreck-with-teammate/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>>>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>>>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Most people responding in the comments section of that article think
>>>>>>>>> that it was a deliberate thing.
>>>>>>>> That doesn't make sense to me. It would be unusual to deliberately take
>>>>>>>> out a teammate. And it sounds like they got along fine afterward.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> Just a story about the last time I went on a group ride near
>>>>>>> Placerville on the El Dorado (California) bike trail. I was riding
>>>>>>> behind someone who was showing off by riding with her hands off the
>>>>>>> bars. She was gaining on another rider, and I kept thinking to myself,
>>>>>>> "hey, she'd better get her hands back on the bars before she runs into
>>>>>>> him", but she didn't. She ran into him while riding no-hands, knocked
>>>>>>> him off his bike, he broke his hip and had to have it surgically
>>>>>>> replaced. After that I decided not to do any more group rides.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've never done a group ride and I never will, but I've been run off
>>>>>> the road twice by group riders to busy jabbering to watch where
>>>>>> they're going.
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>>>>> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>>>>> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>>>>> things to them?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some people like being told what to do. Others like telling people
>>>> what to do. Some just like wearing matching shirts and jackets.
>>>>
>>>I’m sure folks have all sorts of reasons. For myself I mostly ride solo but
>>>am also a member of club, so tomorrow I’ll lead a small group down to
>>>Brighton via lanes and gravel roads.
>>>
>>>I like being a touch more sociable, and treat them as such. Ie I’m faster
>>>etc solo.
>>>
>>>Note also some folks can’t fix stuff even minor so aren’t very self
>>>sufficient.
>>>
>>>Does depend on the club some want to do chain gang and rotation even at the
>>>more social end which I’d say is a bit over the top, others are more
>>>relaxed.
>>>
>>>Ie pick your club wisely.
>>>
>>>Roger Merriman
>>
>>The last club I belonged to was a 4H club when I was 13/14 years old
>>and that was only because a particular young lady was a member of that
>>club.
>
>My mother was a 4H agent. Visited various groups and taught classes,
>sewing and cooking, I think. She also managed affairs at county fairs
>on the woman's side. The guys raising cattle and such had another
>agent to take care of them.

I don't recall any agent types. All the groups had their own adult
managers. The groups I knew of had all kinds of projects, from
livestock to sewing and cooking. The county 4H fair was a huge event,
with many spending the night in the livestock sheds and a fair number
of county cops trying to keep the "funny business" to a minimum.

On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:21:41 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 04:26:57 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:02:01 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 03:12:40 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 22:12:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:45:44?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>>>>>> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>>>>>> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>>>>>> things to them?
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh, good grief! It's not "dictated" to you. A person joins a group ride by choice.
>>>>
>>>>..Some people choose to be dictate to.
>>>>
>>>>> They do it
>>>>>because for them, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
>>>>
>>>>Hmmm, same reason I do all the things that Krygowski disapproves
>>>>of......
>>>>
>>>>>One advantage may be social company. People of normal, healthy psychology enjoy spending
>>>>>time with others who share their interests.
>>>>
>>>>Some normal, healthy people are primarily motivated extrinsically and
>>>>need to be around other people. Other normal, healthy people are
>>>>intrinsically motivated and derive satisfaction from simply doing what
>>>>they do.
>>>>
>>>>>Other advantages are riding new roads and seeing
>>>>>new scenery that one might not find on their own. And learning from others - for example,
>>>>>learning better riding techniques, discussing equipment choices, etc. Another benefit may be
>>>>>getting assistance from others, anything from help fixing a flat, to un-bending a rear derailleur
>>>>
>>>>Safety in numbers.... the preverbal herd instinct.
>>>>
>>>>>to help in the form of drafting to deal with raging headwinds.
>>>>
>>>>Raging????
>>>>
>>>>>I suspect those who have never experienced such benefits may have done relatively little
>>>>>riding, and/or may be social cripples of some sort.
>>>>
>>>>More likely, many people, myself included, don't see any benefits, and
>>>>lots of detriments in playing follow the leader.
>>>>
>>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>>More rationalization from our resident bigot.
>>>
>>>"They do it because for them, the advantages outweigh the
>>>disadvantages."
>>>
>>>One can only speculate what these advantages are? Must ride with the
>>>group? Must go where the group goes? Must stop when the group stops?
>>>
>>>Oh Yes, I forgot one. Frankie gets to play Big Chief, telling every
>>>one else what to do.
>>
>>
>>In my opinion, the folks whose emotional well being is dependant on
>>social interaction (needy people, see below) are the real cripples.
>>
>>https://hackspirit.com/needy-people-7-things-they-do-and-how-to-deal-with-them/
>
>Well, if your aim in life is to impress others with what a marvelous
>and important person you are I suppose that riding in a group is
>rather important to you. "Look Mother, all those people and they are
>listening to ME!"
>
>But, on the other hand, if you are reasonably satisfied with your
>position in life then group rides are probably not on the agenda.

It's interesting to note that being ignored is a sarious slap in the
face for people with a desperate need for attention. It's only natural
for them to assume that others suffer from that malady and to use the
silent treatment tactic when all the other tactics fail. It's hard for
them to understand that other people don't have a desperate need for
attention.

On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 06:37:21 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 16:21:41 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 04:26:57 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 15:02:01 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 03:12:40 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 7 Sep 2023 22:12:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:45:44?PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The whole concept of a group ride is, to be honest, beyond me. I want
>>>>>>> to ride when I want to, where I want to, and as long as I want to. Why
>>>>>>> in the world would anyone want someone to dictate these rather simple
>>>>>>> things to them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Oh, good grief! It's not "dictated" to you. A person joins a group ride by choice.
>>>>>
>>>>>..Some people choose to be dictate to.
>>>>>
>>>>>> They do it
>>>>>>because for them, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hmmm, same reason I do all the things that Krygowski disapproves
>>>>>of......
>>>>>
>>>>>>One advantage may be social company. People of normal, healthy psychology enjoy spending
>>>>>>time with others who share their interests.
>>>>>
>>>>>Some normal, healthy people are primarily motivated extrinsically and
>>>>>need to be around other people. Other normal, healthy people are
>>>>>intrinsically motivated and derive satisfaction from simply doing what
>>>>>they do.
>>>>>
>>>>>>Other advantages are riding new roads and seeing
>>>>>>new scenery that one might not find on their own. And learning from others - for example,
>>>>>>learning better riding techniques, discussing equipment choices, etc. Another benefit may be
>>>>>>getting assistance from others, anything from help fixing a flat, to un-bending a rear derailleur
>>>>>
>>>>>Safety in numbers.... the preverbal herd instinct.
>>>>>
>>>>>>to help in the form of drafting to deal with raging headwinds.
>>>>>
>>>>>Raging????
>>>>>
>>>>>>I suspect those who have never experienced such benefits may have done relatively little
>>>>>>riding, and/or may be social cripples of some sort.
>>>>>
>>>>>More likely, many people, myself included, don't see any benefits, and
>>>>>lots of detriments in playing follow the leader.
>>>>>
>>>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>>More rationalization from our resident bigot.
>>>>
>>>>"They do it because for them, the advantages outweigh the
>>>>disadvantages."
>>>>
>>>>One can only speculate what these advantages are? Must ride with the
>>>>group? Must go where the group goes? Must stop when the group stops?
>>>>
>>>>Oh Yes, I forgot one. Frankie gets to play Big Chief, telling every
>>>>one else what to do.
>>>
>>>
>>>In my opinion, the folks whose emotional well being is dependant on
>>>social interaction (needy people, see below) are the real cripples.
>>>
>>>https://hackspirit.com/needy-people-7-things-they-do-and-how-to-deal-with-them/
>>
>>Well, if your aim in life is to impress others with what a marvelous
>>and important person you are I suppose that riding in a group is
>>rather important to you. "Look Mother, all those people and they are
>>listening to ME!"
>>
>>But, on the other hand, if you are reasonably satisfied with your
>>position in life then group rides are probably not on the agenda.
>
>
>It's interesting to note that being ignored is a sarious slap in the
>face for people with a desperate need for attention. It's only natural
>for them to assume that others suffer from that malady and to use the
>silent treatment tactic when all the other tactics fail. It's hard for
>them to understand that other people don't have a desperate need for
>attention.

Well yes. When one's whole life is made up of attempts to convince the
world just how important one is then being ignored is, to coin a
phrase, a fate worse then death.

--
Cheers,

John B.