On 9/9/2023 12:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/8/2023 8:59 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 9/8/2023 7:08 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/8/2023 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 9/8/2023 3:37 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/6/2023 10:58 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 1 Sep 2023 11:24:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, I've done well on a bike in _very_ dense
>>>>>>>> traffic. When
>>>>>>>> congestion slows motor vehicles to bicycle speeds,
>>>>>>>> things get easier.
>>>>>>>> One has to be alert for motorists' sudden crazy
>>>>>>>> impatience, but in my
>>>>>>>> experience that's not too difficult.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But being caught in a pace line with automobiles is
>>>>>>> exhausting.  They
>>>>>>> travel faster than average until the car ahead is too
>>>>>>> close, then
>>>>>>> slower than average until the car ahead is too far,
>>>>>>> and keeping up
>>>>>>> with the rapid oscillations requires one to stand on
>>>>>>> the pedals and
>>>>>>> drag the brakes simultaniously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was thinking more about city-center Pittsburgh at 5
>>>>>> PM on a Friday.
>>>>>> Speed was never faster than an easy bicycle pace.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BTW, when driving and motor traffic does that surge &
>>>>>> stop behavior, I
>>>>>> usually just try to find the low average speed and
>>>>>> stick to it. I resist
>>>>>> the urge to follow the surge.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Same goes in a car if they are accelerating to some
>>>>> stopped traffic? It’s
>>>>> one of the things the segregated cycle lanes in central
>>>>> london have
>>>>> improved as while the cycleway might get busy and get
>>>>> stuck behind someone
>>>>> for a while doesn’t get that surge/stop it’s nowhere as
>>>>> chaotic and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> People react differently to traffic obstacles:
>>>>
>>>> https://whatsuptoday.org/2023/09/07/agent-punched-and-threatened-with-knife-by-man-on-scooter/
>>>>
>>>> We used to enforce limits to some behavior.
>>>
>>> Hmm. Sounds like they're trying to catch him. What would
>>> you suggest instead?
>>>
>>
>> Wanna bet on that?
>> If they do he will most probably get a desk appearance
>> notice (known in NYC as a disappearance ticket) for
>> disorderly conduct or some such.
>
> Well, I don't know what goes on in NYC. Around here I read
> about police efforts to locate miscreants. Some are not
> found, of course, but many do pop up in the news weeks later
> having been tracked down via informants, etc.
>
> And again, institutions like bail, plea bargaining and more
> have all come into existence for mostly practical and
> monetary reasons. That's true even though there are people
> I'd like to see jailed (without internet access) immediately
> upon indictment.
>

Well, many people (me too) think or at lest react that way.
But we don't act on that impulse.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 11:01:51 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/9/2023 12:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 9/8/2023 8:59 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 9/8/2023 7:08 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>> On 9/8/2023 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 9/8/2023 3:37 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/6/2023 10:58 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Fri, 1 Sep 2023 11:24:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> However, I've done well on a bike in _very_ dense
> >>>>>>>> traffic. When
> >>>>>>>> congestion slows motor vehicles to bicycle speeds,
> >>>>>>>> things get easier.
> >>>>>>>> One has to be alert for motorists' sudden crazy
> >>>>>>>> impatience, but in my
> >>>>>>>> experience that's not too difficult.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> But being caught in a pace line with automobiles is
> >>>>>>> exhausting. They
> >>>>>>> travel faster than average until the car ahead is too
> >>>>>>> close, then
> >>>>>>> slower than average until the car ahead is too far,
> >>>>>>> and keeping up
> >>>>>>> with the rapid oscillations requires one to stand on
> >>>>>>> the pedals and
> >>>>>>> drag the brakes simultaniously.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I was thinking more about city-center Pittsburgh at 5
> >>>>>> PM on a Friday.
> >>>>>> Speed was never faster than an easy bicycle pace.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> BTW, when driving and motor traffic does that surge &
> >>>>>> stop behavior, I
> >>>>>> usually just try to find the low average speed and
> >>>>>> stick to it. I resist
> >>>>>> the urge to follow the surge.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Same goes in a car if they are accelerating to some
> >>>>> stopped traffic? It’s
> >>>>> one of the things the segregated cycle lanes in central
> >>>>> london have
> >>>>> improved as while the cycleway might get busy and get
> >>>>> stuck behind someone
> >>>>> for a while doesn’t get that surge/stop it’s nowhere as
> >>>>> chaotic and so on.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> People react differently to traffic obstacles:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://whatsuptoday.org/2023/09/07/agent-punched-and-threatened-with-knife-by-man-on-scooter/
> >>>>
> >>>> We used to enforce limits to some behavior.
> >>>
> >>> Hmm. Sounds like they're trying to catch him. What would
> >>> you suggest instead?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Wanna bet on that?
> >> If they do he will most probably get a desk appearance
> >> notice (known in NYC as a disappearance ticket) for
> >> disorderly conduct or some such.
> >
> > Well, I don't know what goes on in NYC. Around here I read
> > about police efforts to locate miscreants. Some are not
> > found, of course, but many do pop up in the news weeks later
> > having been tracked down via informants, etc.
> >
> > And again, institutions like bail, plea bargaining and more
> > have all come into existence for mostly practical and
> > monetary reasons. That's true even though there are people
> > I'd like to see jailed (without internet access) immediately
> > upon indictment.
> >
> Well, many people (me too) think or at lest react that way.
> But we don't act on that impulse.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Now Frank knows all about police work too. "Suicide by Cop" is not common at all.

On 9/8/2023 8:51 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> "The Cost of Incarceration in New York State"
> <https://www.vera.org/the-cost-of-incarceration-in-new-york-state>
> "In state prisons, New York spends an average of over $315 a day, or
> nearly $115,000 per year, to incarcerate one person."
> Add to that the cost of trial, public defender and collections.
> Enforcing the law would seem to be a money losing proposition.
>
> Sorry, but I don't know any easy solutions.

Any voter-initiative to increase incarceration of non-violent offenders
must be required to be coupled to a tax increase to finance the
construction and operation of additional prisons.

California "solved" its prison overcrowding by off-loading the
incarceration of many lower-level criminals to county jails. The county
jails don't have capacity or the money to incarcerate so many inmates so
prosecution for lower-level crimes often doesn't occur which encourages
the offenders to repeat offend.

California solved its budgetary problem by ending Redevelopment Agencies
and taking that tax money for the general fund, which also ended funding
for subsidized housing so the construction of affordable housing ground
to a halt. Now there's a proposal for a multi-billion dollar bond
measure to finance affordable housing. But first, the legislature put
ACA1 on the ballot, which reduces the vote percentage necessary to pass
such a bond measure from 2/3rds to 55%. ACA1 needs to pass by only
50%+1. A competing measure raises the vote requirement for local taxes
two-thirds. If both pass then whichever gets more votes becomes law.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 13:01:47 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/9/2023 12:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 9/8/2023 8:59 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 9/8/2023 7:08 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 9/8/2023 8:50 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 9/8/2023 3:37 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 9/6/2023 10:58 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 1 Sep 2023 11:24:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, I've done well on a bike in _very_ dense
>>>>>>>>> traffic. When
>>>>>>>>> congestion slows motor vehicles to bicycle speeds,
>>>>>>>>> things get easier.
>>>>>>>>> One has to be alert for motorists' sudden crazy
>>>>>>>>> impatience, but in my
>>>>>>>>> experience that's not too difficult.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But being caught in a pace line with automobiles is
>>>>>>>> exhausting.  They
>>>>>>>> travel faster than average until the car ahead is too
>>>>>>>> close, then
>>>>>>>> slower than average until the car ahead is too far,
>>>>>>>> and keeping up
>>>>>>>> with the rapid oscillations requires one to stand on
>>>>>>>> the pedals and
>>>>>>>> drag the brakes simultaniously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was thinking more about city-center Pittsburgh at 5
>>>>>>> PM on a Friday.
>>>>>>> Speed was never faster than an easy bicycle pace.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW, when driving and motor traffic does that surge &
>>>>>>> stop behavior, I
>>>>>>> usually just try to find the low average speed and
>>>>>>> stick to it. I resist
>>>>>>> the urge to follow the surge.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Same goes in a car if they are accelerating to some
>>>>>> stopped traffic? It’s
>>>>>> one of the things the segregated cycle lanes in central
>>>>>> london have
>>>>>> improved as while the cycleway might get busy and get
>>>>>> stuck behind someone
>>>>>> for a while doesn’t get that surge/stop it’s nowhere as
>>>>>> chaotic and so on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> People react differently to traffic obstacles:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://whatsuptoday.org/2023/09/07/agent-punched-and-threatened-with-knife-by-man-on-scooter/
>>>>>
>>>>> We used to enforce limits to some behavior.
>>>>
>>>> Hmm. Sounds like they're trying to catch him. What would
>>>> you suggest instead?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Wanna bet on that?
>>> If they do he will most probably get a desk appearance
>>> notice (known in NYC as a disappearance ticket) for
>>> disorderly conduct or some such.
>>
>> Well, I don't know what goes on in NYC. Around here I read
>> about police efforts to locate miscreants. Some are not
>> found, of course, but many do pop up in the news weeks later
>> having been tracked down via informants, etc.
>>
>> And again, institutions like bail, plea bargaining and more
>> have all come into existence for mostly practical and
>> monetary reasons. That's true even though there are people
>> I'd like to see jailed (without internet access) immediately
>> upon indictment.
>>
>
>Well, many people (me too) think or at lest react that way.
>But we don't act on that impulse.

"That's true even though there are people I'd like to see jailed
(without Internet access) "

A rather Tommyish sentiment isn't it... "those that ridicule me must
be banned from the Internet"...
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/9/2023 6:04 PM, sms wrote:
> On 9/8/2023 8:51 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> "The Cost of Incarceration in New York State"
>> <https://www.vera.org/the-cost-of-incarceration-in-new-york-state>
>> "In state prisons, New York spends an average of over $315 a day, or
>> nearly $115,000 per year, to incarcerate one person."
>> Add to that the cost of trial, public defender and collections.
>> Enforcing the law would seem to be a money losing proposition.
>>
>> Sorry, but I don't know any easy solutions.
>
> Any voter-initiative to increase incarceration of non-violent offenders
> must be required to be coupled to a tax increase to finance the
> construction and operation of additional prisons.
>
> California "solved" its prison overcrowding by off-loading the
> incarceration of many lower-level criminals to county jails. The county
> jails don't have capacity or the money to incarcerate so many inmates so
> prosecution for lower-level crimes often doesn't occur which encourages
> the offenders to repeat offend.
>
> California solved its budgetary problem by ending Redevelopment Agencies
> and taking that tax money for the general fund, which also ended funding
> for subsidized housing so the construction of affordable housing ground
> to a halt. Now there's a proposal for a multi-billion dollar bond
> measure to finance affordable housing. But first, the legislature put
> ACA1 on the ballot, which reduces the vote percentage necessary to pass
> such a bond measure from 2/3rds to 55%. ACA1 needs to pass by only
> 50%+1. A competing measure raises the vote requirement for local taxes
> two-thirds. If both pass then whichever gets more votes becomes law.

All of which indicates the quick and simple "Dammit, they oughtta just
...." solutions are grossly simplistic.

And if you don't like the legal complexities, put the blame on the
Constitution. That's where all this started.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/9/2023 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>
>> On 9/9/2023 12:23 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> And again, institutions like bail, plea bargaining and more
>>> have all come into existence for mostly practical and
>>> monetary reasons. That's true even though there are people
>>> I'd like to see jailed (without internet access) immediately
>>> upon indictment.
>>>
>
> "That's true even though there are people I'd like to see jailed
> (without Internet access) "
>
> A rather Tommyish sentiment isn't it... "those that ridicule me must
> be banned from the Internet"...

Whoosh! My statement sailed right over John's head! He's definitely not
as sharp as he used to be.

John, I was not referring to anybody here. (Have you been indicted
recently??)

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 9/8/2023 3:37 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 9/6/2023 10:58 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 1 Sep 2023 11:24:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> However, I've done well on a bike in _very_ dense traffic. When
>>>>> congestion slows motor vehicles to bicycle speeds, things get easier.
>>>>> One has to be alert for motorists' sudden crazy impatience, but in my
>>>>> experience that's not too difficult.
>>>>
>>>> But being caught in a pace line with automobiles is exhausting. They
>>>> travel faster than average until the car ahead is too close, then
>>>> slower than average until the car ahead is too far, and keeping up
>>>> with the rapid oscillations requires one to stand on the pedals and
>>>> drag the brakes simultaniously.
>>>
>>> I was thinking more about city-center Pittsburgh at 5 PM on a Friday.
>>> Speed was never faster than an easy bicycle pace.
>>>
>>> BTW, when driving and motor traffic does that surge & stop behavior, I
>>> usually just try to find the low average speed and stick to it. I resist
>>> the urge to follow the surge.
>>>
>> Same goes in a car if they are accelerating to some stopped traffic? It’s
>> one of the things the segregated cycle lanes in central london have
>> improved as while the cycleway might get busy and get stuck behind someone
>> for a while doesn’t get that surge/stop it’s nowhere as chaotic and so on.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
> People react differently to traffic obstacles:
>
> https://whatsuptoday.org/2023/09/07/agent-punched-and-threatened-with-knife-by-man-on-scooter/
>
> We used to enforce limits to some behavior.

That sounds like a behaviour than infrastructure problem, though is space
on the london embankment to overtake in most cases, though moped in the
article aren’t allowed and enough police about to discourage such use.

Note this runs past Westminster and so on.

What I’ve noticed with the cycleway is you don’t go as fast but you stop
less, any difference is marginal. But that’s less of the point, ie not for
fast roadie types but to get more different types using it, which it is,
get kids even which you never say before as well not a pleasant road to
ride unless prepared and capable of riding with traffic at 20mph or so

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 10:16:25 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 9/8/2023 3:37 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 9/6/2023 10:58 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 1 Sep 2023 11:24:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> However, I've done well on a bike in _very_ dense traffic. When
>>>>>> congestion slows motor vehicles to bicycle speeds, things get easier.
>>>>>> One has to be alert for motorists' sudden crazy impatience, but in my
>>>>>> experience that's not too difficult.
>>>>>
>>>>> But being caught in a pace line with automobiles is exhausting. They
>>>>> travel faster than average until the car ahead is too close, then
>>>>> slower than average until the car ahead is too far, and keeping up
>>>>> with the rapid oscillations requires one to stand on the pedals and
>>>>> drag the brakes simultaniously.
>>>>
>>>> I was thinking more about city-center Pittsburgh at 5 PM on a Friday.
>>>> Speed was never faster than an easy bicycle pace.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, when driving and motor traffic does that surge & stop behavior, I
>>>> usually just try to find the low average speed and stick to it. I resist
>>>> the urge to follow the surge.
>>>>
>>> Same goes in a car if they are accelerating to some stopped traffic? It’s
>>> one of the things the segregated cycle lanes in central london have
>>> improved as while the cycleway might get busy and get stuck behind someone
>>> for a while doesn’t get that surge/stop it’s nowhere as chaotic and so on.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>
>> People react differently to traffic obstacles:
>>
>> https://whatsuptoday.org/2023/09/07/agent-punched-and-threatened-with-knife-by-man-on-scooter/
>>
>> We used to enforce limits to some behavior.
>
>That sounds like a behaviour than infrastructure problem, though is space
>on the london embankment to overtake in most cases, though moped in the
>article aren’t allowed and enough police about to discourage such use.
>
>Note this runs past Westminster and so on.
>
>What I’ve noticed with the cycleway is you don’t go as fast but you stop
>less, any difference is marginal. But that’s less of the point, ie not for
>fast roadie types but to get more different types using it, which it is,
>get kids even which you never say before as well not a pleasant road to
>ride unless prepared and capable of riding with traffic at 20mph or so
>
>Roger Merriman

My primary bike trail has more fast roadie types than any other type,
and since it consists of straight long one or two mile segments
between road crossings, they ride very fast.

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:51:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 8 Sep 2023 07:50:28 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> People react differently to traffic obstacles:
>>>
>>> https://whatsuptoday.org/2023/09/07/agent-punched-and-threatened-with-knife-by-man-on-scooter/
>>
>> "...all because the agent was walking in the bike lane, police said
>> Thursday."
>>
>> Does NYC allow motor scooters to ride in the bicycle lane?
>
> There's a very fine line, these days between a motor scooter and an
> electric bicycle.
>
>>> We used to enforce limits to some behavior.
>>
>> When it costs more to enforce the law than it generates in revenue
>> from fines, enforcement will tend to slowly disappear.
>>
>> "The Cost of Incarceration in New York State"
>> <https://www.vera.org/the-cost-of-incarceration-in-new-york-state>
>> "In state prisons, New York spends an average of over $315 a day, or
>> nearly $115,000 per year, to incarcerate one person."
>> Add to that the cost of trial, public defender and collections.
>> Enforcing the law would seem to be a money losing proposition.
>>
>> Sorry, but I don't know any easy solutions.
>
Not in my experience though USA has higher E bike limits ie 20mph rather
than 15mph.

E bikes generally are only a few KG heavier so 20kg maybe rather than 13kg
say for town or MTB.

Vs mopeds or motorcycle which are quite a margin heavier even at the
lighter cheap Chinese ones, and if not legal they do get caught if nothing
else it’s rather self selecting folks who buy the not legal stuff tend to
do dumb shit in front of the police!

Roger Merriman

Catrike Rider <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 10:16:25 GMT, Roger Meriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 9/8/2023 3:37 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 9/6/2023 10:58 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 1 Sep 2023 11:24:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, I've done well on a bike in _very_ dense traffic. When
>>>>>>> congestion slows motor vehicles to bicycle speeds, things get easier.
>>>>>>> One has to be alert for motorists' sudden crazy impatience, but in my
>>>>>>> experience that's not too difficult.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But being caught in a pace line with automobiles is exhausting. They
>>>>>> travel faster than average until the car ahead is too close, then
>>>>>> slower than average until the car ahead is too far, and keeping up
>>>>>> with the rapid oscillations requires one to stand on the pedals and
>>>>>> drag the brakes simultaniously.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was thinking more about city-center Pittsburgh at 5 PM on a Friday.
>>>>> Speed was never faster than an easy bicycle pace.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, when driving and motor traffic does that surge & stop behavior, I
>>>>> usually just try to find the low average speed and stick to it. I resist
>>>>> the urge to follow the surge.
>>>>>
>>>> Same goes in a car if they are accelerating to some stopped traffic? It’s
>>>> one of the things the segregated cycle lanes in central london have
>>>> improved as while the cycleway might get busy and get stuck behind someone
>>>> for a while doesn’t get that surge/stop it’s nowhere as chaotic and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>
>>> People react differently to traffic obstacles:
>>>
>>> https://whatsuptoday.org/2023/09/07/agent-punched-and-threatened-with-knife-by-man-on-scooter/
>>>
>>> We used to enforce limits to some behavior.
>>
>> That sounds like a behaviour than infrastructure problem, though is space
>> on the london embankment to overtake in most cases, though moped in the
>> article aren’t allowed and enough police about to discourage such use.
>>
>> Note this runs past Westminster and so on.
>>
>> What I’ve noticed with the cycleway is you don’t go as fast but you stop
>> less, any difference is marginal. But that’s less of the point, ie not for
>> fast roadie types but to get more different types using it, which it is,
>> get kids even which you never say before as well not a pleasant road to
>> ride unless prepared and capable of riding with traffic at 20mph or so
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> My primary bike trail has more fast roadie types than any other type,
> and since it consists of straight long one or two mile segments
> between road crossings, they ride very fast.
>

Rather different infrastructure the embankment is transport, than a leisure
route.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/dRjeM75H9AisT9dc9?g_st=ic

While the Downs link is probably more equivalent, even if it’s surface is
hard pack

https://maps.app.goo.gl/EJ6j4ct9m9E1f6iQ9?g_st=ic

Roger Merriman

On 9/10/2023 8:06 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>
> ... USA has higher E bike limits ie 20mph rather
> than 15mph.

I'd forgotten that Britain's limit was 15 mph. Does that apply to
continental Europe as well?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 9/10/2023 8:06 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>
>> ... USA has higher E bike limits ie 20mph rather
>> than 15mph.
>
> I'd forgotten that Britain's limit was 15 mph. Does that apply to
> continental Europe as well?
>

Some not all, I personally think it’s a good idea for your commuting folks
particularly if your using shared spaces which such folks often are seems a
decent easy limit, and for MTB it seems to mostly work.

E road or gravel bikes doesn’t seem like something that is likely to work
well? I ride with my mate and his E MTB only time we noticed was rolling on
the canal tow path where my gravel bike was rolling along just above the
limiter!

But mosty MTB and EMTB works well I have a technical and fitness edge any
way.

Roger Merriman

Am 10.09.2023 um 19:29 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
> On 9/10/2023 8:06 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>
>> ... USA has higher E bike limits ie 20mph rather
>> than 15mph.
>
> I'd forgotten that Britain's limit was 15 mph. Does that apply to
> continental Europe as well?

Typical limit in EU is 25 km/h. German limits E-Scooters to 20 km/h to
make them less attractive than E-bikes.

Rolf