I am not at all clear why the bar end terminal is so popular but the longest "Y" Di2 wire is not long enough to go from the bar end to the Di2 lever on the opposite side. Instead it appears that it is designed to go to a 3 terminal underbar block. Using a "Y" wire leaves and open connector that can get water etc. into it. So in that case it would be preferable to use two straight wires and the third connector to the 4 contact block which then connects the underbar to the derailleurs and the battery.

So I have ordered the longer wires and will use the bar end and a four way to connect the two levers to the four way and then a single wire to the barend. Since it is inside of the integrated bar there is no way for water to enter once the bar tape is installed.

Another thing - the original Shimano wiring tool had one end that could push over the wire so that you could easily lever the tight connection out. The new tool also made by Shimano (probably China now) the end piece will not fit over the wire properly even though it has the same number on it. So you have to be careful to insert the wire correctly. I can't find my original tool and this one is rather useless.

Now that I removed the XTR rear derailleur and the levers are not connected pending arrival of the new wires the battery charger operates just fine. The fact that the XTR rear derailleur prevents charging is just another reason why Shimano should be more forthright on why an M905-GS and an 8010-GS are incompatible.

Now that I have the technique to threading the wires into the various places down pat, it took me 2 minutes to set the handlebar up to install the new wires in when they arrive. So while my memory block from the medication prevents me from remembering what I did before, I can dope it all out from first principles

On 9/17/2023 9:41 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I am not at all clear why the bar end terminal is so popular but the longest "Y" Di2 wire is not long enough to go from the bar end to the Di2 lever on the opposite side. Instead it appears that it is designed to go to a 3 terminal underbar block. Using a "Y" wire leaves and open connector that can get water etc. into it. So in that case it would be preferable to use two straight wires and the third connector to the 4 contact block which then connects the underbar to the derailleurs and the battery.
>
> So I have ordered the longer wires and will use the bar end and a four way to connect the two levers to the four way and then a single wire to the barend. Since it is inside of the integrated bar there is no way for water to enter once the bar tape is installed.
>
> Another thing - the original Shimano wiring tool had one end that could push over the wire so that you could easily lever the tight connection out. The new tool also made by Shimano (probably China now) the end piece will not fit over the wire properly even though it has the same number on it. So you have to be careful to insert the wire correctly. I can't find my original tool and this one is rather useless.
>
> Now that I removed the XTR rear derailleur and the levers are not connected pending arrival of the new wires the battery charger operates just fine. The fact that the XTR rear derailleur prevents charging is just another reason why Shimano should be more forthright on why an M905-GS and an 8010-GS are incompatible.
>
> Now that I have the technique to threading the wires into the various places down pat, it took me 2 minutes to set the handlebar up to install the new wires in when they arrive. So while my memory block from the medication prevents me from remembering what I did before, I can dope it all out from first principles

I can't recall the rest of your setup but this may help:
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=12995

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 4:41:37 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I am not at all clear why the bar end terminal is so popular but the longest "Y" Di2 wire is not long enough to go from the bar end to the Di2 lever on the opposite side. Instead it appears that it is designed to go to a 3 terminal underbar block. Using a "Y" wire leaves and open connector that can get water etc. into it. So in that case it would be preferable to use two straight wires and the third connector to the 4 contact block which then connects the underbar to the derailleurs and the battery.
>
> So I have ordered the longer wires and will use the bar end and a four way to connect the two levers to the four way and then a single wire to the barend. Since it is inside of the integrated bar there is no way for water to enter once the bar tape is installed.
>
> Another thing - the original Shimano wiring tool had one end that could push over the wire so that you could easily lever the tight connection out. The new tool also made by Shimano (probably China now) the end piece will not fit over the wire properly even though it has the same number on it. So you have to be careful to insert the wire correctly. I can't find my original tool and this one is rather useless.
>
> Now that I removed the XTR rear derailleur and the levers are not connected pending arrival of the new wires the battery charger operates just fine. The fact that the XTR rear derailleur prevents charging is just another reason why Shimano should be more forthright on why an M905-GS and an 8010-GS are incompatible.
>
> Now that I have the technique to threading the wires into the various places down pat, it took me 2 minutes to set the handlebar up to install the new wires in when they arrive. So while my memory block from the medication prevents me from remembering what I did before, I can dope it all out from first principles

The wire of the Y splitter doesn’t go from the bar end terminal to the lever on the opposite site. One wire goes from the split position just onder the stem to the bar end and the other goes to the shifter on the ‘opposite site’. The smal portion goes towards the downtube. The MM version has two 550 mm wires and one 50 mm wire, more than long enough for any handlebar if connected correctly of course. Do you think Shimano is stupid?

Lou

On 9/17/2023 10:40 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 4:41:37 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> I am not at all clear why the bar end terminal is so popular but the longest "Y" Di2 wire is not long enough to go from the bar end to the Di2 lever on the opposite side. Instead it appears that it is designed to go to a 3 terminal underbar block. Using a "Y" wire leaves and open connector that can get water etc. into it. So in that case it would be preferable to use two straight wires and the third connector to the 4 contact block which then connects the underbar to the derailleurs and the battery.
>>
>> So I have ordered the longer wires and will use the bar end and a four way to connect the two levers to the four way and then a single wire to the barend. Since it is inside of the integrated bar there is no way for water to enter once the bar tape is installed.
>>
>> Another thing - the original Shimano wiring tool had one end that could push over the wire so that you could easily lever the tight connection out. The new tool also made by Shimano (probably China now) the end piece will not fit over the wire properly even though it has the same number on it. So you have to be careful to insert the wire correctly. I can't find my original tool and this one is rather useless.
>>
>> Now that I removed the XTR rear derailleur and the levers are not connected pending arrival of the new wires the battery charger operates just fine. The fact that the XTR rear derailleur prevents charging is just another reason why Shimano should be more forthright on why an M905-GS and an 8010-GS are incompatible.
>>
>> Now that I have the technique to threading the wires into the various places down pat, it took me 2 minutes to set the handlebar up to install the new wires in when they arrive. So while my memory block from the medication prevents me from remembering what I did before, I can dope it all out from first principles
>
> The wire of the Y splitter doesn’t go from the bar end terminal to the lever on the opposite site. One wire goes from the split position just onder the stem to the bar end and the other goes to the shifter on the ‘opposite site’. The smal portion goes towards the downtube. The MM version has two 550 mm wires and one 50 mm wire, more than long enough for any handlebar if connected correctly of course. Do you think Shimano is stupid?
>
> Lou

Why, of course they are!
We all learned the other day that Shimano in their ignorance
thinks an XTR rear changer won't shift with Ultegra Di2
levers. Resident RBT genius will straighten them out on that
point.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 8:40:58 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 4:41:37 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > I am not at all clear why the bar end terminal is so popular but the longest "Y" Di2 wire is not long enough to go from the bar end to the Di2 lever on the opposite side. Instead it appears that it is designed to go to a 3 terminal underbar block. Using a "Y" wire leaves and open connector that can get water etc. into it. So in that case it would be preferable to use two straight wires and the third connector to the 4 contact block which then connects the underbar to the derailleurs and the battery.
> >
> > So I have ordered the longer wires and will use the bar end and a four way to connect the two levers to the four way and then a single wire to the barend. Since it is inside of the integrated bar there is no way for water to enter once the bar tape is installed.
> >
> > Another thing - the original Shimano wiring tool had one end that could push over the wire so that you could easily lever the tight connection out.. The new tool also made by Shimano (probably China now) the end piece will not fit over the wire properly even though it has the same number on it. So you have to be careful to insert the wire correctly. I can't find my original tool and this one is rather useless.
> >
> > Now that I removed the XTR rear derailleur and the levers are not connected pending arrival of the new wires the battery charger operates just fine. The fact that the XTR rear derailleur prevents charging is just another reason why Shimano should be more forthright on why an M905-GS and an 8010-GS are incompatible.
> >
> > Now that I have the technique to threading the wires into the various places down pat, it took me 2 minutes to set the handlebar up to install the new wires in when they arrive. So while my memory block from the medication prevents me from remembering what I did before, I can dope it all out from first principles
> The wire of the Y splitter doesn’t go from the bar end terminal to the lever on the opposite site. One wire goes from the split position just onder the stem to the bar end and the other goes to the shifter on the ‘opposite site’. The smal portion goes towards the downtube.. The MM version has two 550 mm wires and one 50 mm wire, more than long enough for any handlebar if connected correctly of course. Do you think Shimano is stupid?
>
> Lou
The Y splitter will not run from the bar end terminal to the opposite lever easily. It is actually made to attach to the under bar terminal. And even then there are troubles. If you don't have problems I would guess that you have an under stem terminal. The distance from the end of the drop to the opposite lever is 250 mm + 400 mm plus any addition detours due to the other cabling such as going around the brake cables etc. The "y" splitter just barely made it to the lever opposite the bar end terminal.

As for Shimano -We can see that they do things different from what you would suppose. We were just talking about the stupidity of making the XTR and Dura Ace medium arm rear derailleurs non-compatible. The ONLY difference between the rear triangle of an MTB and a Road bike is that spacing being between the drop-outs. And there is only 1.5 cm difference in that spacing. If you believe that is somehow an intelligent means of designing an electronic rear derailleur that can be programmed to START at any position and END 10 steps later then what sort of mechanical engineer were you? No insult intended - I just am interested in if YOU would design rear derailleurs that way.

My impression is that there is insufficient travel in the gear train to correct for that 150 mm whereas I would design the gear as a complete circle and not a partial gear. I'm sure that Shimano engineers are competent. But is management and the sales staff? Engineers, especially Japanese engineers, tend to do what they are told ONLY. Americans tend to say "This would be better".

During WW II Henry Ford got this idea that he could build a thousand fighter aircraft a day instead of the 25 that the very best aircraft companies were doing. He would do this by using mass production methods and take the engines being built for one aircraft, the wings for another, the tail assembly for another and the cockpit and nose from another. While that sounded good to Ford, all of his engineers were afraid to tell him he was crazy and Ford's idea (the XF-75) killed a bunch of test pilots before the Army Air Corps canceled the project.

Who came up with the ridiculous drive mechanism for the Di2? Designed correctly it could have been used in the early 10 speeds, the 11 speeds and now the 12 or 13. The total adjustability should have been a lever arm and a complete gear. Initial programming could have been M900-GS for the wider MTB and 9000 for the road bike. But either could have been programmable to work with the other. Shimano engineers looked at the early 4 wire communications system and said "Let's do this right" and now the coaxial power/communications system is the industry leader.

On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 8:45:06 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/17/2023 10:40 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 4:41:37 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> I am not at all clear why the bar end terminal is so popular but the longest "Y" Di2 wire is not long enough to go from the bar end to the Di2 lever on the opposite side. Instead it appears that it is designed to go to a 3 terminal underbar block. Using a "Y" wire leaves and open connector that can get water etc. into it. So in that case it would be preferable to use two straight wires and the third connector to the 4 contact block which then connects the underbar to the derailleurs and the battery.
> >>
> >> So I have ordered the longer wires and will use the bar end and a four way to connect the two levers to the four way and then a single wire to the barend. Since it is inside of the integrated bar there is no way for water to enter once the bar tape is installed.
> >>
> >> Another thing - the original Shimano wiring tool had one end that could push over the wire so that you could easily lever the tight connection out. The new tool also made by Shimano (probably China now) the end piece will not fit over the wire properly even though it has the same number on it. So you have to be careful to insert the wire correctly. I can't find my original tool and this one is rather useless.
> >>
> >> Now that I removed the XTR rear derailleur and the levers are not connected pending arrival of the new wires the battery charger operates just fine. The fact that the XTR rear derailleur prevents charging is just another reason why Shimano should be more forthright on why an M905-GS and an 8010-GS are incompatible.
> >>
> >> Now that I have the technique to threading the wires into the various places down pat, it took me 2 minutes to set the handlebar up to install the new wires in when they arrive. So while my memory block from the medication prevents me from remembering what I did before, I can dope it all out from first principles
> >
> > The wire of the Y splitter doesn’t go from the bar end terminal to the lever on the opposite site. One wire goes from the split position just onder the stem to the bar end and the other goes to the shifter on the ‘opposite site’. The smal portion goes towards the downtube.. The MM version has two 550 mm wires and one 50 mm wire, more than long enough for any handlebar if connected correctly of course. Do you think Shimano is stupid?
> >
> > Lou
> Why, of course they are!
> We all learned the other day that Shimano in their ignorance
> thinks an XTR rear changer won't shift with Ultegra Di2
> levers. Resident RBT genius will straighten them out on that
> point.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew - can you use Di2 levers on a wide tire gravel bike that has to have MTB derailleurs to shift? I was looking at a Gravel bike the other day and it looked to me like an MTB with no suspension. So I assume that it had a 145mm rear dropout spacing.

BTW - The charger had an orange light for charging the battery but didn't get a green light after 4 hours.. Does the absence of a light mean that the battery is good but hasn't charged all of the way yet?

On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 10:44:42 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 8:40:58 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 4:41:37 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > I am not at all clear why the bar end terminal is so popular but the longest "Y" Di2 wire is not long enough to go from the bar end to the Di2 lever on the opposite side. Instead it appears that it is designed to go to a 3 terminal underbar block. Using a "Y" wire leaves and open connector that can get water etc. into it. So in that case it would be preferable to use two straight wires and the third connector to the 4 contact block which then connects the underbar to the derailleurs and the battery.
> > >
> > > So I have ordered the longer wires and will use the bar end and a four way to connect the two levers to the four way and then a single wire to the barend. Since it is inside of the integrated bar there is no way for water to enter once the bar tape is installed.
> > >
> > > Another thing - the original Shimano wiring tool had one end that could push over the wire so that you could easily lever the tight connection out. The new tool also made by Shimano (probably China now) the end piece will not fit over the wire properly even though it has the same number on it. So you have to be careful to insert the wire correctly. I can't find my original tool and this one is rather useless.
> > >
> > > Now that I removed the XTR rear derailleur and the levers are not connected pending arrival of the new wires the battery charger operates just fine. The fact that the XTR rear derailleur prevents charging is just another reason why Shimano should be more forthright on why an M905-GS and an 8010-GS are incompatible.
> > >
> > > Now that I have the technique to threading the wires into the various places down pat, it took me 2 minutes to set the handlebar up to install the new wires in when they arrive. So while my memory block from the medication prevents me from remembering what I did before, I can dope it all out from first principles
> > The wire of the Y splitter doesn’t go from the bar end terminal to the lever on the opposite site. One wire goes from the split position just onder the stem to the bar end and the other goes to the shifter on the ‘opposite site’. The smal portion goes towards the downtube.. The MM version has two 550 mm wires and one 50 mm wire, more than long enough for any handlebar if connected correctly of course. Do you think Shimano is stupid?
> >
> > Lou
> The Y splitter will not run from the bar end terminal to the opposite lever easily. It is actually made to attach to the under bar terminal. And even then there are troubles. If you don't have problems I would guess that you have an under stem terminal. The distance from the end of the drop to the opposite lever is 250 mm + 400 mm plus any addition detours due to the other cabling such as going around the brake cables etc. The "y" splitter just barely made it to the lever opposite the bar end terminal.

Geezzz the Y splitter is NOT meant to be used with a under the stem terminal block. With that terminal block you don’t need one because you have three or four connections. The bar end terminal block has only two and you need the Y splitter. Look at the pictures here:

https://www.mantel.com/en/shimano-ew-jc130-electric-wire

Just use Di2 as Shimano designed it and you don’t have any trouble or just stay away from it. Telling Shimano what they should have done is just arrogant.

Lou

On 9/17/2023 4:08 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 10:44:42 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 8:40:58 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 4:41:37 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> I am not at all clear why the bar end terminal is so popular but the longest "Y" Di2 wire is not long enough to go from the bar end to the Di2 lever on the opposite side. Instead it appears that it is designed to go to a 3 terminal underbar block. Using a "Y" wire leaves and open connector that can get water etc. into it. So in that case it would be preferable to use two straight wires and the third connector to the 4 contact block which then connects the underbar to the derailleurs and the battery.
>>>>
>>>> So I have ordered the longer wires and will use the bar end and a four way to connect the two levers to the four way and then a single wire to the barend. Since it is inside of the integrated bar there is no way for water to enter once the bar tape is installed.
>>>>
>>>> Another thing - the original Shimano wiring tool had one end that could push over the wire so that you could easily lever the tight connection out. The new tool also made by Shimano (probably China now) the end piece will not fit over the wire properly even though it has the same number on it. So you have to be careful to insert the wire correctly. I can't find my original tool and this one is rather useless.
>>>>
>>>> Now that I removed the XTR rear derailleur and the levers are not connected pending arrival of the new wires the battery charger operates just fine. The fact that the XTR rear derailleur prevents charging is just another reason why Shimano should be more forthright on why an M905-GS and an 8010-GS are incompatible.
>>>>
>>>> Now that I have the technique to threading the wires into the various places down pat, it took me 2 minutes to set the handlebar up to install the new wires in when they arrive. So while my memory block from the medication prevents me from remembering what I did before, I can dope it all out from first principles
>>> The wire of the Y splitter doesn’t go from the bar end terminal to the lever on the opposite site. One wire goes from the split position just onder the stem to the bar end and the other goes to the shifter on the ‘opposite site’. The smal portion goes towards the downtube. The MM version has two 550 mm wires and one 50 mm wire, more than long enough for any handlebar if connected correctly of course. Do you think Shimano is stupid?
>>>
>>> Lou
>> The Y splitter will not run from the bar end terminal to the opposite lever easily. It is actually made to attach to the under bar terminal. And even then there are troubles. If you don't have problems I would guess that you have an under stem terminal. The distance from the end of the drop to the opposite lever is 250 mm + 400 mm plus any addition detours due to the other cabling such as going around the brake cables etc. The "y" splitter just barely made it to the lever opposite the bar end terminal.
>
> Geezzz the Y splitter is NOT meant to be used with a under the stem terminal block. With that terminal block you don’t need one because you have three or four connections. The bar end terminal block has only two and you need the Y splitter. Look at the pictures here:
>
> https://www.mantel.com/en/shimano-ew-jc130-electric-wire
>
> Just use Di2 as Shimano designed it and you don’t have any trouble or just stay away from it. Telling Shimano what they should have done is just arrogant.
>
> Lou

+1
"RTFM" as always.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 2:08:12 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 10:44:42 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 8:40:58 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 17, 2023 at 4:41:37 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > I am not at all clear why the bar end terminal is so popular but the longest "Y" Di2 wire is not long enough to go from the bar end to the Di2 lever on the opposite side. Instead it appears that it is designed to go to a 3 terminal underbar block. Using a "Y" wire leaves and open connector that can get water etc. into it. So in that case it would be preferable to use two straight wires and the third connector to the 4 contact block which then connects the underbar to the derailleurs and the battery.
> > > >
> > > > So I have ordered the longer wires and will use the bar end and a four way to connect the two levers to the four way and then a single wire to the barend. Since it is inside of the integrated bar there is no way for water to enter once the bar tape is installed.
> > > >
> > > > Another thing - the original Shimano wiring tool had one end that could push over the wire so that you could easily lever the tight connection out. The new tool also made by Shimano (probably China now) the end piece will not fit over the wire properly even though it has the same number on it. So you have to be careful to insert the wire correctly. I can't find my original tool and this one is rather useless.
> > > >
> > > > Now that I removed the XTR rear derailleur and the levers are not connected pending arrival of the new wires the battery charger operates just fine. The fact that the XTR rear derailleur prevents charging is just another reason why Shimano should be more forthright on why an M905-GS and an 8010-GS are incompatible.
> > > >
> > > > Now that I have the technique to threading the wires into the various places down pat, it took me 2 minutes to set the handlebar up to install the new wires in when they arrive. So while my memory block from the medication prevents me from remembering what I did before, I can dope it all out from first principles
> > > The wire of the Y splitter doesn’t go from the bar end terminal to the lever on the opposite site. One wire goes from the split position just onder the stem to the bar end and the other goes to the shifter on the ‘opposite site’. The smal portion goes towards the downtube. The MM version has two 550 mm wires and one 50 mm wire, more than long enough for any handlebar if connected correctly of course. Do you think Shimano is stupid?
> > >
> > > Lou
> > The Y splitter will not run from the bar end terminal to the opposite lever easily. It is actually made to attach to the under bar terminal. And even then there are troubles. If you don't have problems I would guess that you have an under stem terminal. The distance from the end of the drop to the opposite lever is 250 mm + 400 mm plus any addition detours due to the other cabling such as going around the brake cables etc. The "y" splitter just barely made it to the lever opposite the bar end terminal.
> Geezzz the Y splitter is NOT meant to be used with a under the stem terminal block. With that terminal block you don’t need one because you have three or four connections. The bar end terminal block has only two and you need the Y splitter. Look at the pictures here:
>
> https://www.mantel.com/en/shimano-ew-jc130-electric-wire
>
> Just use Di2 as Shimano designed it and you don’t have any trouble or just stay away from it. Telling Shimano what they should have done is just arrogant.
>
> Lou
Mother knows best. https://bettershifting.com/installation-guide/bar-end-junction-ew-rs910-installation-guide/