Rick C wrote:
> I especially like the fact that Larkin refuses to believe the evidence
> regarding AGW in part because the predictions are made using computer
> simulations. Then he presents a NASA study to support his notion that all is
> well with rising CO2 because it also has a positive effect on plant growth...
> a study based on computer simulations.

After humanity has kicked Earth's climate into some wild oscillations I'm sure
it will again settle into some metastable condition that is well suited for
certain species (like the past 12k years were for humans). Question is, what
will human civilization (the only thing interesting in this context) look like
during and after that rollercoaster ride. It's out of the question that the
ride will happen --it is happening--, but I don't see us taking any action
trying to make it less wild.

On 26 Feb 2022 18:56:00 GMT, Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Rick C wrote:
>> I especially like the fact that Larkin refuses to believe the evidence
>> regarding AGW in part because the predictions are made using computer
>> simulations. Then he presents a NASA study to support his notion that all is
>> well with rising CO2 because it also has a positive effect on plant growth...
>> a study based on computer simulations.
>
>After humanity has kicked Earth's climate into some wild oscillations I'm sure
>it will again settle into some metastable condition that is well suited for
>certain species (like the past 12k years were for humans).

When has earth's climate ever settled?

Question is, what
>will human civilization (the only thing interesting in this context) look like
>during and after that rollercoaster ride. It's out of the question that the
>ride will happen --it is happening--, but I don't see us taking any action
>trying to make it less wild.

Looks nice outside to me.

The next ice age will be very bad news. We can probably mitigate that.
CO2 wouldn't be enough, but it might be part of the plan.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:14:03 AM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:

> There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome

Specifically, that was predicting overpopulation, in 1972; China responded
to their internal problems in 1980 with the 'one-child policy'. So,
was the prediction wrong?
>
> It is all about manipulating (or was it marsupilami?) the masses and selling

Huh? It's about a problem that requires large-scale solution, why would you
want the 'masses'' uninformed?

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 11:08:48 AM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:

> When has earth's climate ever settled?

On the one-century time scale, almost always.
On the one-month time scale, possibly never.
On the one-millenium time scale, sometimes no.

That's not an interesting question.

> The next ice age will be very bad news. We can probably mitigate that.

That's a milleniums-scale speculation; no one alive today has any oar in
the water on that issue; we won't interact with that problem during our lifetimes.
It's a modern variant on the angels-dancing-on-a-pinhead "issue".

On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:21:04 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:14:03 AM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome
>
>Specifically, that was predicting overpopulation, in 1972; China responded
>to their internal problems in 1980 with the 'one-child policy'. So,
>was the prediction wrong?

Very wrong. Their "computer simulation" didn't account for progress.
They didn't even get the sign right.

"the Club of Rome was doing amateur dynamics without a license,
without a proper qualification. And they were doing it badly, so I got
steamed up about that"

China is facing an aging population and 1.7 births per woman. Their
immediate problem isn't too much reproduction, it's too little.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:21:04 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd
<whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
<cb305708-5dd6-46b2-a3e7-9450be5aa670n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:14:03 AM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
>> There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome
>
>Specifically, that was predicting overpopulation, in 1972; China responded
>to their internal problems in 1980 with the 'one-child policy'. So,
>was the prediction wrong?
>>
>> It is all about manipulating (or was it marsupilami?) the masses and selling
>
>Huh? It's about a problem that requires large-scale solution, why would you
>want the 'masses'' uninformed?

Yes, climate will change, a glacial period will be followed by a warm period over and over again.
Our CO2 reduction does not change that.
We need to have the knowledge and pass on the knowledge how to create
the energy we need to keep living, to the next generation.
This did not happen, most are green-minded and destroy old technologies and know nothing
about how to build anything.

As to the masses and 'informed'
it has always? been like it is today, some leader or bunch of guys controlling a puppet convince the masses
of some idea, right or wrong, the masses move like lemmings..
Vietnam war
you are drafted, you shall fight, else punishment, chance you die 50%.
US used Agent orange, US used depleted uranium ammo in Iraq... US designed covid
and killed millions, US designed covid medicines that killed millions because of side effects
profit industry make war in Europe, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, destabilize countries like for example Venezuela, Cuba
US sells snake oil, US put tariffs on imports, US has more debt than a third world country.
Thousand died from 'medicines' opioids
the masses ARE uninformed, they are played by industry for profit and politicians for power and ego and insane ideas.
You do not need to know anything to be a politician, as long as people believe in you, your illusions.
It has always been like that .. the Roman empire fell, maybe the little ice age helped..
_No empire yet_ has persisted,

The masses....

On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Feb 2022 06:57:40 -0800) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<bkfk1hl1blk0ajccka7prpvtp34qo4ta0g@4ax.com>:

>On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 08:11:52 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:56:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd
>><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
>><ab91f577-c16a-4314-a21a-119729999065n@googlegroups.com>:
>>
>>>On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 12:54:45 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:43:11 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> >> Cold kills about 10x as many people as heat.
>>>> >
>>>> >False argument.
>>>> My humble apologies. I got the number wrong.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2015/05/20/cold-weather-deaths/27657269/
>>>
>>>Yep, they got the number wrong, too. Fire, flood, and crop failures are all to be expected
>>>in a warming earth, and only the immediate-ambient-temperature effects are in that assessment.
>>>There wouldn't be a Paris Accord if we were blind outside that one spot.
>>
>>There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome
>>
>>It is all about manipulating (or was it marsupilami?) the masses and selling
>
>Doom sells. And keeps selling. "Ignore all our failed predictions. We
>have bigger computers now."
>
>>
>>CO2 levels have been much higher and are cyclic with warm and cold periods (ice ages if you will).
>>
>>Human beans better have nuclear power plants to run their aircos and heaters else population will
>>go dinos way in large areas.
>>The last 2 Adam and Eva humming beans on earth will have to know all about how to run that stuff.
>>
>>Just a matter of time
>>
>>Elon's kids will watch it all from some far away planet.
>>
>>rt.com RT (Russia Today) is blocked in the Netherlands, good I have a sat dish, maybe EU will
>>kill that channel too like they did their German speaking channel.
>
>The Netherlands blocks web sites? Who decides?

Dunno, connection just came back
Could have been a denial of service attack, any kid can do that.
I have read some hacker group will go anti-Russia.

>>
>>
>>>Remove blinders and take in more information.
>>
>>We are depending on all that 'tronics, does not take much to become blind and only hear for
>>example biden's vacuum brain echos.
>>
>>I like it if it gets warmer, was freezing here tonight.
>>Higher temperatures and close to the sea here can create good tourist places.
>>Some orange trees and coconut trees would be nice.
>
>Maybe there is a reason that people build glass greenhouses and pump
>them up to 1000 PPM or so CO2.

Grow drugs ;-)?

On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:09:25 -0800) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
<sumk1hlkkb8ui9ga60ujumalk39va3baop@4ax.com>:

>It is ironic that the dreaded "greenhouse effect" is named after,
>well, greenhouses. Places where plants flourish.
>
>Truckee hit -2F this morning. Too cold to ski in jeans.
>
>There was an official -11F this week, but the weather station is out
>in the open at the airport, exposed to the sky and in a local frigid
>microclimate.

Yes -23 C is very cold
I remember getting of a bus at the wrong stop it was -40 C and had to walk in jeans ....
Somehow I seem to have good temperature control, heat does not change me much either
Miami beach :-)

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:34:04 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:21:04 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:14:03 AM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >
> >> There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome
> >
> >Specifically, that was predicting overpopulation, in 1972; China responded
> >to their internal problems in 1980 with the 'one-child policy'. So,
> >was the prediction wrong?

> Very wrong.

What does 'very wrong' mean, is that a moral judgment?

> ...Their "computer simulation" didn't account for progress.

So, you think the 'one child' policy is progress? And that it
wasn't part of the input to the analysis?

The 'progress' word is a lame excuse for something, I'm just not sure what.
> They didn't even get the sign right.

What sign? That statement makes no sense, either.

On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:39:47 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:09:25 -0800) it happened John Larkin
><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
><sumk1hlkkb8ui9ga60ujumalk39va3baop@4ax.com>:
>
>>It is ironic that the dreaded "greenhouse effect" is named after,
>>well, greenhouses. Places where plants flourish.
>>
>>Truckee hit -2F this morning. Too cold to ski in jeans.
>>
>>There was an official -11F this week, but the weather station is out
>>in the open at the airport, exposed to the sky and in a local frigid
>>microclimate.
>
>Yes -23 C is very cold
>I remember getting of a bus at the wrong stop it was -40 C and had to walk in jeans ....
>Somehow I seem to have good temperature control, heat does not change me much either
>Miami beach :-)

I have a friend who always skis in shorts. Cold doesn't bother him.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 12:34:27 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
> wrote:
[...]

>>The Paris Agreement
>>
>>The Paris Agreement is a legally binding international treaty on climate
>>change. It was adopted by 196 Parties at COP 21 in Paris, on 12 December
>>2015 and entered into force on 4 November 2016.
>>
>>Its goal is to limit global warming to well below 2, preferably to 1.5
>>degrees Celsius, compared to pre-industrial levels.
>
> Hilarious. Any oil, gas, or coal that you don't want, the Chinese and
> Indians and Africans and South Americans will be glad to take off your
> hands. The Australians will sell them as many megatons of coal as they
> can shove into their new power plants.

The Paris Agreement bans oil, gas and coal plants. The chinese have very
bad air pollution from burning coal. They are developing a Molten Salt
Reactor to get away from the need to burn fossil fuels.

India is also looking at Molten Salt, as well as pebble bed for the same
reason.

China has stopped importing Australian coal. Australia is the world's
largest exporter of metallurgical (or coking) coal, used to make steel, not
for burning. Work is progressing on Electric Arc furnaces to eliminate
coal.
> The Russians and Saudis (and Americans) will cheerfully furnish oil
> and gas.

About 93 percent of the natural gas consumed in the United States is
produced within U.S. borders; much of the rest about 5 Bcf per day (7
percent) comes from Canada, which also has a substantial natural gas supply
base.

Biden has cancelled recent leases on oil exploration.

Keystone XL, which was proposed in 2008 to bring oil from Canada's Western
tar sands to U.S. refiners, was halted by owner TC Energy Corp (TRP.TO)
after U.S. President Joe Biden this year revoked a key permit needed for a
U.S. stretch of the 1,200-mile project.
The fossil fuel industry has tremendous inertia and cannot stop on a dime.
But change is happening.

> A billion people on Earth don't have electricity, heat, decent
> shelter, or clean water. They will get it, even though w(h)iney
> Tesla-driving air-conditioned jet-set New York Times subscribers want
> to keep them poor.

Why? How can they buy things if they have no money?

Your solution? Put Trump back in power?

On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:39:47 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Feb 2022 06:57:40 -0800) it happened
>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
><bkfk1hl1blk0ajccka7prpvtp34qo4ta0g@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 08:11:52 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:56:11 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd
>>><whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
>>><ab91f577-c16a-4314-a21a-119729999065n@googlegroups.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 12:54:45 PM UTC-8, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 07:43:11 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> >> Cold kills about 10x as many people as heat.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >False argument.
>>>>> My humble apologies. I got the number wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2015/05/20/cold-weather-deaths/27657269/
>>>>
>>>>Yep, they got the number wrong, too. Fire, flood, and crop failures are all to be expected
>>>>in a warming earth, and only the immediate-ambient-temperature effects are in that assessment.
>>>>There wouldn't be a Paris Accord if we were blind outside that one spot.
>>>
>>>There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome
>>>
>>>It is all about manipulating (or was it marsupilami?) the masses and selling
>>
>>Doom sells. And keeps selling. "Ignore all our failed predictions. We
>>have bigger computers now."
>>
>>>
>>>CO2 levels have been much higher and are cyclic with warm and cold periods (ice ages if you will).
>>>
>>>Human beans better have nuclear power plants to run their aircos and heaters else population will
>>>go dinos way in large areas.
>>>The last 2 Adam and Eva humming beans on earth will have to know all about how to run that stuff.
>>>
>>>Just a matter of time
>>>
>>>Elon's kids will watch it all from some far away planet.
>>>
>>>rt.com RT (Russia Today) is blocked in the Netherlands, good I have a sat dish, maybe EU will
>>>kill that channel too like they did their German speaking channel.
>>
>>The Netherlands blocks web sites? Who decides?
>
>Dunno, connection just came back
>Could have been a denial of service attack, any kid can do that.
>I have read some hacker group will go anti-Russia.
>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Remove blinders and take in more information.
>>>
>>>We are depending on all that 'tronics, does not take much to become blind and only hear for
>>>example biden's vacuum brain echos.
>>>
>>>I like it if it gets warmer, was freezing here tonight.
>>>Higher temperatures and close to the sea here can create good tourist places.
>>>Some orange trees and coconut trees would be nice.
>>
>>Maybe there is a reason that people build glass greenhouses and pump
>>them up to 1000 PPM or so CO2.
>
>Grow drugs ;-)?

Yes. And roses, orchids, tomatoes, ferns, all sorts of stuff. Plants
seem to like roughly 1100 PPM CO2 best.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:42:13 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:34:04 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:21:04 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:14:03 AM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >
>> >> There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome
>> >
>> >Specifically, that was predicting overpopulation, in 1972; China responded
>> >to their internal problems in 1980 with the 'one-child policy'. So,
>> >was the prediction wrong?
>
>> Very wrong.
>
>What does 'very wrong' mean, is that a moral judgment?

No. Average calories per person. Annual oil and gas production.
Running out of metals. Population collapse. All wrong.

>
>> ...Their "computer simulation" didn't account for progress.
>
>So, you think the 'one child' policy is progress? And that it
>wasn't part of the input to the analysis?
>
>The 'progress' word is a lame excuse for something, I'm just not sure what.

Food. Water. Housing. Electricity. Transport. Education. Medical care.
Things we have and other people want.

Think about it.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 1:34:54 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:42:13 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:34:04 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:21:04 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:14:03 AM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome
> >> >
> >> >Specifically, that was predicting overpopulation, in 1972; China responded
> >> >to their internal problems in 1980 with the 'one-child policy'. So,
> >> >was the prediction wrong?
> >
> >> Very wrong.
> >
> >What does 'very wrong' mean, is that a moral judgment?

> No. Average calories per person. Annual oil and gas production.

Average isn't the best measure, because fluctuations in food supply can kill you before
the next harvest is ready. Also, calories, of course, aren't the only food value; how
about protein, amines? Beef isn't keeping up with population.

Oil and gas production certainly IS limited; why would you think Club of Rome is wrong on that?

Where's the beef? Where's the numbers?

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 4:23:17 PM UTC-5, Mike Monett wrote:
>
> China has stopped importing Australian coal. Australia is the world's
> largest exporter of metallurgical (or coking) coal, used to make steel, not
> for burning. Work is progressing on Electric Arc furnaces to eliminate
> coal.

Can you explain how the Electric Arc furnace eliminates the use of coal in making steel?

--

Rick C.

-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:32:15 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 1:34:54 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:42:13 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:34:04 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:21:04 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:14:03 AM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
>> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome
>> >> >
>> >> >Specifically, that was predicting overpopulation, in 1972; China responded
>> >> >to their internal problems in 1980 with the 'one-child policy'. So,
>> >> >was the prediction wrong?
>> >
>> >> Very wrong.
>> >
>> >What does 'very wrong' mean, is that a moral judgment?
>
>> No. Average calories per person. Annual oil and gas production.
>
>Average isn't the best measure, because fluctuations in food supply can kill you before
>the next harvest is ready. Also, calories, of course, aren't the only food value; how
>about protein, amines? Beef isn't keeping up with population.
>

OK, don't think.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 8:58:33 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 12:10:57 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 4:23:17 PM UTC-5, Mike Monett wrote:
> > >
> > > China has stopped importing Australian coal. Australia is the world's
> > > largest exporter of metallurgical (or coking) coal, used to make steel, not
> > > for burning. Work is progressing on Electric Arc furnaces to eliminate
> > > coal.
> > Can you explain how the Electric Arc furnace eliminates the use of coal in making steel?
> It doesn't. Electric arc furnaces are used to melt metal, not to reduce ion oxides to metallic iron.
>
> The long term plan seems to be to use electrolysis to reduce iron ore ( dissolved in some hot molten ionic liquid) to metallic iron, in much the same way as we get aluminium from alumina (Al2O3).

That doesn't get rid of the coal. The coal is turned into coke and used as a component in making steel since that is the main difference between iron and steel, the carbon added, although other elements are also added.

> The shorter term plan seems to be to electrolytic hydrogen to do the reduction in something that looks a lot more like a blast furnace. Twiggy Forrest - an Australian mining magnate who happens to have a Ph.D. in Marine Ecology (essentially a part time hobby project) has endorsed electrolysis as the long term solution, but he has been happy to talk up Australia's electrolytic hydrogen project (along with a bunch of other venture capitalists).
>
> https://www.upstreamonline.com/hydrogen/australia-leads-green-hydrogen-pack-with-69gw-project-pipeline/2-1-1072243
>
> The main charm of the project seems to be shipping off tanker-loads of liquid hydrogen to Japan and South Korea, but there are lots of other potential markets.

Do you know what these tanker loads of hydrogen are used for? Is it the energy content or as feedstock for some industrial process?

--

Rick C.

-++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 3:24:02 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 8:58:33 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 12:10:57 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 4:23:17 PM UTC-5, Mike Monett wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > China has stopped importing Australian coal. Australia is the world's
> > > > > largest exporter of metallurgical (or coking) coal, used to make steel, not
> > > > > for burning. Work is progressing on Electric Arc furnaces to eliminate
> > > > > coal.
> > > > Can you explain how the Electric Arc furnace eliminates the use of coal in making steel?
> > > It doesn't. Electric arc furnaces are used to melt metal, not to reduce ion oxides to metallic iron.
> > >
> > > The long term plan seems to be to use electrolysis to reduce iron ore ( dissolved in some hot molten ionic liquid) to metallic iron, in much the same way as we get aluminium from alumina (Al2O3).
> >
> > That doesn't get rid of the coal. The coal is turned into coke and used as a component in making steel since that is the main difference between iron and steel, the carbon added, although other elements are also added.
> It certainly gets rid of most of it. Cast iron. as produced in a blast furnace, typically contains 2% to 4% carbon, and the Bessemer process converted it into steel (anything from 2.1% carbon to 0.05% carbon) by blowing air through the molten metal to convert some of that carbon into CO2.
>
> And it entirely gets rid of the need to dump a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere.
>
> The bulk of the work in making iron and steel out of Fe2O3 (which is the iron ore we start off with) is getting rid of the oxygen.
>
> Electrolysis of Fe2O3 ejects the oxygen at anode. Hydrogen reduction of Fe2O3 gets rid of of the oxygen as water.

How does the electric arc furnace relate to reducing the production of CO2 in iron/steel making?

How is the carbon added to make steel after electrolysis of ore to make carbon free iron?

> > > The shorter term plan seems to be to electrolytic hydrogen to do the reduction in something that looks a lot more like a blast furnace. Twiggy Forrest - an Australian mining magnate who happens to have a Ph.D. in Marine Ecology (essentially a part time hobby project) has endorsed electrolysis as the long term solution, but he has been happy to talk up Australia's electrolytic hydrogen project (along with a bunch of other venture capitalists).
> > >
> > > https://www.upstreamonline.com/hydrogen/australia-leads-green-hydrogen-pack-with-69gw-project-pipeline/2-1-1072243
> > >
> > > The main charm of the project seems to be shipping off tanker-loads of liquid hydrogen to Japan and South Korea, but there are lots of other potential markets.
> >
> > Do you know what these tanker loads of hydrogen are used for? Is it the energy content or as feedstock for some industrial process?
> My guess is that it mostly going to replace liquified natural gas as an energy source, but the venture capital puffs aren't all that specific.

So burning to make H2O in steam turbines? Or in fuel cells?

--

Rick C.

-+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Feb 2022 18:54:59 -0800 (PST)) it happened Anthony
William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in
<3ed5ddb7-deed-4bf3-b6e3-83fa9967c883n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 7:42:04 AM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:21:04 -0800 (PST)) it happened whit3rd
> <whi...@gmail.com> wrote in <cb305708-5dd6-46b2...@googlegroups.com>:
>> >On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:14:03 AM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>
>Yes, climate will change, a glacial period will be followed by a warm period
>over and over again.
>
>It has been like that for the past few million years. On a geological time scale,
>this doesn't happen all that often
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_glaciation
>
>> Our CO2 reduction does not change that.
>
>The current CO2 level - 412 ppm - is higher than it has been for some 20 million
>years. For the last couple of million years the atmospheric CO2 level
>has flutuated between about 180 ppm (glacial period) and 270 ppm (interglacial).
>
>>
>We need to have the knowledge and pass on the knowledge how to create the
>energy we need to keep living, to the next generation.
>
>There are lots of ways of doing that. Burning fossil carbon was cheap and easy,
>but fossil carbon is a finite resource. Getting more immediate access to
>the energy coming in form the sun does have lots of advantages but you need
>fairly high technology to get the amount of energy we seem to need at the
>moment.
>
>> This did not happen, most are green-minded and destroy old technologies and
>know nothing about how to build anything.
>
>Jan certainly doesn't seem to.
>
>> As to the masses and 'informed' it has always? been like it is today, some
>leader or bunch of guys controlling a puppet convince the masses of some
>idea, right or wrong, the masses move like lemmings..
>> Vietnam war
>
>Odd how the lemmings staged massive anti-Vietnam war protests. I even showed
>up in one of them.
>
>> you are drafted, you shall fight, else punishment, chance you die 50%.
>
>Nobody died evading the draft in the US. Dubbya and Trump both did it.
>
>> US used Agent orange, US used depleted uranium ammo in Iraq... US designed
>covid
>> and killed millions, US designed covid medicines that killed millions because
>of side effects
>
>According to Jan who is a sucker for particularly silly propaganda.
>
>> profit industry make war in Europe, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, destabilize
>countries like for example Venezuela, Cuba
>
>Venezuala got destablished by oil industry profit-taking. It is now a mess.
>Cuba isn't any kind of mess. It's not a rich country, but it does have universal
>health, and its life expectancy is marginally better than the USA (79.18
>versus 79.11)
>
>> US sells snake oil, US put tariffs on imports, US has more debt than a third
>world country.
>> Thousand died from 'medicines' opioids.
>
>But the people who sell them make billions.
>
>> the masses ARE uninformed, they are played by industry for profit and politicians
>for power and ego and insane ideas.
>
>More so in the US where primary and secondary education are paid for by tiny
>school districts, and consequently mostly under-funded.
>
>> You do not need to know anything to be a politician, as long as people believe
>in you, your illusions.
>
>But you do need professional to craft the kind of illusions that people will
>believe in. The largely under-educated American public is remarkably gullible,
>and doesn't gag at the most implausible delusions - look at John Larkin.
>
>>
>It has always been like that .. the Roman empire fell, maybe the little ice
>age helped.. _No empire yet_ has persisted,
>
>Empires keep on doing what used to work for them. Their competitors are obliged
>to think up new ways of competing. Somebody eventually finds an empire-beating
>trick, and goes on to make the same mistake.
>
>> The masses....
>
>Are a huge crowd of distinct individuals, some of whom can think for themselves.
>Jan doesn't seem to be one of those.

Yea, was a bit tired and in a hurry posting last night after coding for a whole day again
to find things were screwed up by kids changing old good stuff..
Better write your own libraries, I did for many things. Again sigh,

So, as to glowball CO2 changes over the history versus temperature:
https://www.carbonbrief.org/explainer-how-the-rise-and-fall-of-co2-levels-influenced-the-ice-ages
seems to be doing decent science
Cause and effect ?

What we will see is mass-migration (already much of affrica is moving here it seems, and US has invaded
themselves, quite possible affrica will become more livable and then all blacks will
say they are hostage... all that crap).

If Netherlands actually flooded due to sea level rise where would people go? Siberia?
Some DNA tinkerer could bring a dino or two back alive.. World would be interesting.
Eventually sun will engulf earth and we will have to get out of here before that.
Will it happen? We need political will to settle on other planets.
Or maybe some insects will win, and migrate on one of our spacecraft and feel fine on some planet
where we will not persist...
Humming Species.. There must a a trillion variants across the universe, I know, I am one.

Hard to tell, only 500 years ago nobody could have imagined your paintings alive in color
and everybody looking at those every day, speaking into a small box and others seeing and hearing
you thousands of miles away, electric lights, microwave cooking, planes, cars..
exponential!
Followed by nuclear W3 of course and a ... years setback? but then again exponential is
an almost magical thing.
But tangents have this eeehh well mamaticians will know what I mean, 'destructive property in electronics'.
:-)

But what more is there to discover? We know shit yet.

Flies are
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/02/220217141245.htm
that reminds me of the article in the eighties by a German professor
about neural networks and how just a few neurons could steer a car.
Made me write some code back then, now AI is a big thing.
We are, but for a few more, like that, or are we?
We are (quantum..) all connected all across the universe.

On 26/02/22 21:12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:39:47 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:09:25 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
>> <sumk1hlkkb8ui9ga60ujumalk39va3baop@4ax.com>:
>>
>>> It is ironic that the dreaded "greenhouse effect" is named after,
>>> well, greenhouses. Places where plants flourish.
>>>
>>> Truckee hit -2F this morning. Too cold to ski in jeans.
>>>
>>> There was an official -11F this week, but the weather station is out
>>> in the open at the airport, exposed to the sky and in a local frigid
>>> microclimate.
>>
>> Yes -23 C is very cold
>> I remember getting of a bus at the wrong stop it was -40 C and had to walk in jeans ....
>> Somehow I seem to have good temperature control, heat does not change me much either
>> Miami beach :-)
>
> I have a friend who always skis in shorts. Cold doesn't bother him.

I've seen many people skiing in bikinis. No problem until
they fall down or the sun goes in.

Doesn't change points about /climate/.

On 27/02/22 02:51, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:32:15 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 1:34:54 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:42:13 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:34:04 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:21:04 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:14:03 AM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Specifically, that was predicting overpopulation, in 1972; China responded
>>>>>> to their internal problems in 1980 with the 'one-child policy'. So,
>>>>>> was the prediction wrong?
>>>>
>>>>> Very wrong.
>>>>
>>>> What does 'very wrong' mean, is that a moral judgment?
>>
>>> No. Average calories per person. Annual oil and gas production.
>>
>> Average isn't the best measure, because fluctuations in food supply can kill you before
>> the next harvest is ready. Also, calories, of course, aren't the only food value; how
>> about protein, amines? Beef isn't keeping up with population.
>>
>
> OK, don't think.

Pot, kettle, black.

On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 7:52:46 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 5:18:30 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 12:27:19 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 3:24:02 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 8:58:33 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 12:10:57 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 4:23:17 PM UTC-5, Mike Monett wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > China has stopped importing Australian coal. Australia is the world's
> > > > > > > largest exporter of metallurgical (or coking) coal, used to make steel, not
> > > > > > > for burning. Work is progressing on Electric Arc furnaces to eliminate
> > > > > > > coal.
> > > > > > Can you explain how the Electric Arc furnace eliminates the use of coal in making steel?
> > > > > It doesn't. Electric arc furnaces are used to melt metal, not to reduce ion oxides to metallic iron.
> > > > >
> > > > > The long term plan seems to be to use electrolysis to reduce iron ore ( dissolved in some hot molten ionic liquid) to metallic iron, in much the same way as we get aluminium from alumina (Al2O3).
> > > >
> > > > That doesn't get rid of the coal. The coal is turned into coke and used as a component in making steel since that is the main difference between iron and steel, the carbon added, although other elements are also added..
> > > It certainly gets rid of most of it. Cast iron. as produced in a blast furnace, typically contains 2% to 4% carbon, and the Bessemer process converted it into steel (anything from 2.1% carbon to 0.05% carbon) by blowing air through the molten metal to convert some of that carbon into CO2.
> > >
> > > And it entirely gets rid of the need to dump a lot of CO2 into the atmosphere.
> > >
> > > The bulk of the work in making iron and steel out of Fe2O3 (which is the iron ore we start off with) is getting rid of the oxygen.
> > >
> > > Electrolysis of Fe2O3 ejects the oxygen at anode. Hydrogen reduction of Fe2O3 gets rid of of the oxygen as water.
> >
> > How does the electric arc furnace relate to reducing the production of CO2 in iron/steel making?
> As you could have read before you posted that - " It doesn't. Electric arc furnaces are used to melt metal, not to reduce ion oxides to metallic iron."

Yes, I did, that's why I had to ask again as you seem to be going all around the issue but not addressing it.

> You can burn fossil carbon to get metallic iron hot enough to melt, but that isn't where most of the coking coal used to make steel from iron ore get used up
> > How is the carbon added to make steel after electrolysis of ore to make carbon free iron?
> Any way the metallurgists like. If you get your soft iron hot enough in a reducing atmosphere and expose it to graphite, the carbon will diffuse through solid iron.
>
> Melt the soft iron - again in a reducing atmosphere - and sprinkle the graphite on the surface, then stir vigorously. Carbon diffuses even faster through liquid iron (which melts at 1538C). Graphite doesn't melt, and is less dense than liquid iron, so you would have to stir vigorously.
>
> What would be done in practice is anybody's guess. Nobody makes industrial quantities of iron by electrolysis at the moment, but metallurgist make all sorts of alloys in all sorts of ways and there's bound to be some approach that would just work.

Ok, so this whole issue is a red herring. Thanks

> > > > > The shorter term plan seems to be to electrolytic hydrogen to do the reduction in something that looks a lot more like a blast furnace. Twiggy Forrest - an Australian mining magnate who happens to have a Ph.D. in Marine Ecology (essentially a part time hobby project) has endorsed electrolysis as the long term solution, but he has been happy to talk up Australia's electrolytic hydrogen project (along with a bunch of other venture capitalists).
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.upstreamonline.com/hydrogen/australia-leads-green-hydrogen-pack-with-69gw-project-pipeline/2-1-1072243
> > > > >
> > > > > The main charm of the project seems to be shipping off tanker-loads of liquid hydrogen to Japan and South Korea, but there are lots of other potential markets.
> > > >
> > > > Do you know what these tanker loads of hydrogen are used for? Is it the energy content or as feedstock for some industrial process?
> >
> > > My guess is that it mostly going to replace liquified natural gas as an energy source, but the venture capital puffs aren't all that specific.
> >
> > So burning to make H2O in steam turbines? Or in fuel cells?
> More likely in gas turbines. Fuel cells would be more efficient, but pushing the original electric power through a long undersea cable and leaving out the hydrogen completely would be roughly three times more efficient. Singapore seems to be close enough to Australia to make this ostensibly feasible. Japan and South Korea are a bit further away.

If it is three times more efficient, what is not "feasible" about it? Are you saying the cable would be enormous? What are you saying exactly?

--

Rick C.

+--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 09:06:24 +0000, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>On 26/02/22 21:12, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 20:39:47 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On a sunny day (Sat, 26 Feb 2022 09:09:25 -0800) it happened John Larkin
>>> <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
>>> <sumk1hlkkb8ui9ga60ujumalk39va3baop@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>> It is ironic that the dreaded "greenhouse effect" is named after,
>>>> well, greenhouses. Places where plants flourish.
>>>>
>>>> Truckee hit -2F this morning. Too cold to ski in jeans.
>>>>
>>>> There was an official -11F this week, but the weather station is out
>>>> in the open at the airport, exposed to the sky and in a local frigid
>>>> microclimate.
>>>
>>> Yes -23 C is very cold
>>> I remember getting of a bus at the wrong stop it was -40 C and had to walk in jeans ....
>>> Somehow I seem to have good temperature control, heat does not change me much either
>>> Miami beach :-)
>>
>> I have a friend who always skis in shorts. Cold doesn't bother him.
>
>I've seen many people skiing in bikinis. No problem until
>they fall down or the sun goes in.

Here's one, July 4 2011 at Sugar Bowl.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bgu1x1ajlk3rpit/July_4_Bikini.jpg?raw=1

Aspen once had a streaking fad. One day the entire ski patrol made
their last run down the mountain naked. The bad news is that it was
all guys.

>
>Doesn't change points about /climate/.

Really?

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 09:07:39 +0000, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/02/22 02:51, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 16:32:15 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 1:34:54 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 12:42:13 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:34:04 PM UTC-8, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:21:04 -0800 (PST), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, February 26, 2022 at 12:14:03 AM UTC-8, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was also "The club of Rome' predicting the end of everything or something.
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_of_Rome
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Specifically, that was predicting overpopulation, in 1972; China responded
>>>>>>> to their internal problems in 1980 with the 'one-child policy'. So,
>>>>>>> was the prediction wrong?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Very wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> What does 'very wrong' mean, is that a moral judgment?
>>>
>>>> No. Average calories per person. Annual oil and gas production.
>>>
>>> Average isn't the best measure, because fluctuations in food supply can kill you before
>>> the next harvest is ready. Also, calories, of course, aren't the only food value; how
>>> about protein, amines? Beef isn't keeping up with population.
>>>
>>
>> OK, don't think.
>
>Pot, kettle, black.

Thanks for the original contribution.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 10:21:43 AM UTC-6, David Brown wrote:
> On 23/02/2022 17:00, Rick C wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 10:30:40 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner
> > wrote:
> >> On 23/02/22 14:30, Rick C wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 3:56:35 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 23/02/22 08:11, Jeff Layman wrote:
> >>>>> On 22/02/2022 23:03, Dean Hoffman wrote:
> >>>>>> Maybe someone here will be interested.
> >>>>>> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04301-9>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well, it's been mooted for around 70 years. Hopefully it is
> >>>>> nearer to reality:
> >>>>> <https://phys.org/news/2022-02-scientists-britain-fusion-energy.html>
> >>>>> But even there note "The latest results use about three times
> >>>>> the amount of energy that is produced."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I wonder, though, has anyone considered the ramifications of
> >>>>> "endless" energy?
> >>>>>
> >>>> Unsurprisingly yes.
> >>>> https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/
> >>>>
> >>>> Amusingly John Larkin adopts the economist's position, and
> >>>> thinks the physicist's position is wrong.
> >>>
> >>> The physicist is not correct. Notice that the opening posit is
> >>> "economic growth cannot continue indefinitely", and gets
> >>> immediately replaced by the "energy scale expanding into the
> >>> future". These are not the same things at all.
> >>>
> >>> I knew an economist who actually posited the physicist's
> >>> position. Seems that was a common belief among economists in the
> >>> 80s and 90s. What it fails to take into account is the ability to
> >>> do more with less. Computers are a perfect example. They have
> >>> allowed us to replace relatively inefficient humans with
> >>> machines, boosting productivity in ways we could only imagine
> >>> before. We find new technology that allows better products using
> >>> less material and energy. We discover new means of medical
> >>> diagnosis and treatment extending and improving life.
> >>>
> >>> None of this automatically implies greater energy consumption.
> >>> The entire argument is specious.
> >> There's validity to that objection, but historically the energy -
> >> wealth relationship has tracked reasonably well.
> >>
> >> The problem with exponential growth is that even if you posit that
> >> we become 16* more energy efficient by some "magic" (Arthur C.
> >> Clarke!) means, that only delays the conclusion by 4 doubling
> >> generations. And that's not enough to invalidate the basic
> >> observations.
> >
> > Why can't you see the very obvious fallacy in that argument? The
> > energy *estimate* grew exponentially for a few centuries not because
> > we used more energy per individual, but because the human population
> > grew exponentially. In the last couple of hundred years technology
> > has extended life span, improved farm productivity and otherwise
> > enabled faster population growth... until more recently where the
> > more affluent countries have reduced their population growth.
> >
> > At the same time, the per capita energy use has increased... until
> > the last 50 years when it also has leveled off in the more affluent
> > parts of the globe.
> >
> > So the combination of leveling off of population and the leveling off
> > of per capita energy use means we will continue to improve the
> > quality of life as well as economic growth into the foreseeable
> > future.
> >
> I wonder if you read the article in detail?

Ok, I guess no one read It. :)
Long day....

mk5000

But at the same time a contrary undertow reels us back into byways of history, sampling the chipped-paint signposts of lost Americas, their bygone Mr. Salteenas and others of his ilk. Ashbery is always in the contemporary world but not quite of it, because he has other worlds to inhabit, or at least to conjure or salvage: the present is just one of the many sectors that make up the historical multiverse of his poems.==James Gibbons reviews John Ashbery's new book, Breezeway