I've already decided that I will lace my new hub with a two
cross pattern like the old one. I'm wondering if any experienced
wheel lacers can comment on interlacing vs not interlacing.
I've always thought it was standard procedure, but I've recently read
that it doesn't really make a any difference. It'll be a 32 hole
wheel, with 2.0 Stainless Steel spokes.

On 10/13/2023 4:30 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
> I've already decided that I will lace my new hub with a two
> cross pattern like the old one. I'm wondering if any experienced
> wheel lacers can comment on interlacing vs not interlacing.
> I've always thought it was standard procedure, but I've recently read
> that it doesn't really make a any difference. It'll be a 32 hole
> wheel, with 2.0 Stainless Steel spokes.
>

Ideal spoke angle for 32h is 3x not two.
Do interlace the final cross.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:05:30 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/13/2023 4:30 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>
>> I've already decided that I will lace my new hub with a two
>> cross pattern like the old one. I'm wondering if any experienced
>> wheel lacers can comment on interlacing vs not interlacing.
>> I've always thought it was standard procedure, but I've recently read
>> that it doesn't really make a any difference. It'll be a 32 hole
>> wheel, with 2.0 Stainless Steel spokes.
>>
>
>Ideal spoke angle for 32h is 3x not two.
>Do interlace the final cross.

Catrike uses 2x interlaced. Remember that a trike doesn't lean in
turns and therefore takes more transverse force. Also, there will be
no brake on this wheel.

On 10/13/2023 5:32 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:05:30 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 10/13/2023 4:30 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>
>>> I've already decided that I will lace my new hub with a two
>>> cross pattern like the old one. I'm wondering if any experienced
>>> wheel lacers can comment on interlacing vs not interlacing.
>>> I've always thought it was standard procedure, but I've recently read
>>> that it doesn't really make a any difference. It'll be a 32 hole
>>> wheel, with 2.0 Stainless Steel spokes.
>>>
>>
>> Ideal spoke angle for 32h is 3x not two.
>> Do interlace the final cross.
>
> Catrike uses 2x interlaced. Remember that a trike doesn't lean in
> turns and therefore takes more transverse force. Also, there will be
> no brake on this wheel.

I have to say I'm not an expert but that goes against my
intuition. I'll assume the people at Cat Trike who have
experience know best.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:41:02 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/13/2023 5:32 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:05:30 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/13/2023 4:30 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've already decided that I will lace my new hub with a two
>>>> cross pattern like the old one. I'm wondering if any experienced
>>>> wheel lacers can comment on interlacing vs not interlacing.
>>>> I've always thought it was standard procedure, but I've recently read
>>>> that it doesn't really make a any difference. It'll be a 32 hole
>>>> wheel, with 2.0 Stainless Steel spokes.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ideal spoke angle for 32h is 3x not two.
>>> Do interlace the final cross.
>>
>> Catrike uses 2x interlaced. Remember that a trike doesn't lean in
>> turns and therefore takes more transverse force. Also, there will be
>> no brake on this wheel.
>
>I have to say I'm not an expert but that goes against my
>intuition. I'll assume the people at Cat Trike who have
>experience know best.

That's what I've done. I recently read that when spokes are interlaced
the constant rubbing can result in wear. I've never broken a spoke on
the Catrike and with 37000+ miles on the wheels, I'm inclined to
follow Catrike's policy of interlacing too.

I was wondering if anyone has experienced a broken spoke or has seen
indication of wear at the contact location. I don't see any wear, but
I won't be able to see clearly until I remove them. My front wheels
(406) also have 37000+ miles and I expect to do many more. They have
sealed (currently ceramic) bearings and the hubs and rims should last
forever, but I'm wondering if I should be thinking about respoking
them.

It looks like (I've only seen pictures) the new rear wheel I bought is
standard 3x and expect standard over-over-under interlacing.

On 10/14/2023 2:50 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:41:02 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 10/13/2023 5:32 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:05:30 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/13/2023 4:30 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I've already decided that I will lace my new hub with a two
>>>>> cross pattern like the old one. I'm wondering if any experienced
>>>>> wheel lacers can comment on interlacing vs not interlacing.
>>>>> I've always thought it was standard procedure, but I've recently read
>>>>> that it doesn't really make a any difference. It'll be a 32 hole
>>>>> wheel, with 2.0 Stainless Steel spokes.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ideal spoke angle for 32h is 3x not two.
>>>> Do interlace the final cross.
>>>
>>> Catrike uses 2x interlaced. Remember that a trike doesn't lean in
>>> turns and therefore takes more transverse force. Also, there will be
>>> no brake on this wheel.
>>
>> I have to say I'm not an expert but that goes against my
>> intuition. I'll assume the people at Cat Trike who have
>> experience know best.
>
> That's what I've done. I recently read that when spokes are interlaced
> the constant rubbing can result in wear. I've never broken a spoke on
> the Catrike and with 37000+ miles on the wheels, I'm inclined to
> follow Catrike's policy of interlacing too.
>
> I was wondering if anyone has experienced a broken spoke or has seen
> indication of wear at the contact location. I don't see any wear, but
> I won't be able to see clearly until I remove them. My front wheels
> (406) also have 37000+ miles and I expect to do many more. They have
> sealed (currently ceramic) bearings and the hubs and rims should last
> forever, but I'm wondering if I should be thinking about respoking
> them.
>
> It looks like (I've only seen pictures) the new rear wheel I bought is
> standard 3x and expect standard over-over-under interlacing.

Spoke abrasion at the cross correlates with low spoke
tension and less rigid rims.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 07:46:19 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/14/2023 2:50 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:41:02 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/13/2023 5:32 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:05:30 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/13/2023 4:30 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've already decided that I will lace my new hub with a two
>>>>>> cross pattern like the old one. I'm wondering if any experienced
>>>>>> wheel lacers can comment on interlacing vs not interlacing.
>>>>>> I've always thought it was standard procedure, but I've recently read
>>>>>> that it doesn't really make a any difference. It'll be a 32 hole
>>>>>> wheel, with 2.0 Stainless Steel spokes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ideal spoke angle for 32h is 3x not two.
>>>>> Do interlace the final cross.
>>>>
>>>> Catrike uses 2x interlaced. Remember that a trike doesn't lean in
>>>> turns and therefore takes more transverse force. Also, there will be
>>>> no brake on this wheel.
>>>
>>> I have to say I'm not an expert but that goes against my
>>> intuition. I'll assume the people at Cat Trike who have
>>> experience know best.
>>
>> That's what I've done. I recently read that when spokes are interlaced
>> the constant rubbing can result in wear. I've never broken a spoke on
>> the Catrike and with 37000+ miles on the wheels, I'm inclined to
>> follow Catrike's policy of interlacing too.
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone has experienced a broken spoke or has seen
>> indication of wear at the contact location. I don't see any wear, but
>> I won't be able to see clearly until I remove them. My front wheels
>> (406) also have 37000+ miles and I expect to do many more. They have
>> sealed (currently ceramic) bearings and the hubs and rims should last
>> forever, but I'm wondering if I should be thinking about respoking
>> them.
>>
>> It looks like (I've only seen pictures) the new rear wheel I bought is
>> standard 3x and expect standard over-over-under interlacing.
>
>Spoke abrasion at the cross correlates with low spoke
>tension and less rigid rims.

I've only needed very minor straightening on the front 406 wheels and
I've never checked the tension. I will do that now.

On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 3:41:09 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/13/2023 5:32 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:05:30 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/13/2023 4:30 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I've already decided that I will lace my new hub with a two
> >>> cross pattern like the old one. I'm wondering if any experienced
> >>> wheel lacers can comment on interlacing vs not interlacing.
> >>> I've always thought it was standard procedure, but I've recently read
> >>> that it doesn't really make a any difference. It'll be a 32 hole
> >>> wheel, with 2.0 Stainless Steel spokes.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Ideal spoke angle for 32h is 3x not two.
> >> Do interlace the final cross.
> >
> > Catrike uses 2x interlaced. Remember that a trike doesn't lean in
> > turns and therefore takes more transverse force. Also, there will be
> > no brake on this wheel.
> I have to say I'm not an expert but that goes against my
> intuition. I'll assume the people at Cat Trike who have
> experience know best.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

My one experience with a catrike was quite a few years ago. My memory is that it had small wheels and it is difficult to cross lace small wheels.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 06:45:46 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 3:41:09?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/13/2023 5:32 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> > On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:05:30 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 10/13/2023 4:30 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I've already decided that I will lace my new hub with a two
>> >>> cross pattern like the old one. I'm wondering if any experienced
>> >>> wheel lacers can comment on interlacing vs not interlacing.
>> >>> I've always thought it was standard procedure, but I've recently read
>> >>> that it doesn't really make a any difference. It'll be a 32 hole
>> >>> wheel, with 2.0 Stainless Steel spokes.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Ideal spoke angle for 32h is 3x not two.
>> >> Do interlace the final cross.
>> >
>> > Catrike uses 2x interlaced. Remember that a trike doesn't lean in
>> > turns and therefore takes more transverse force. Also, there will be
>> > no brake on this wheel.
>> I have to say I'm not an expert but that goes against my
>> intuition. I'll assume the people at Cat Trike who have
>> experience know best.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>My one experience with a catrike was quite a few years ago. My memory is that it had small wheels and it is difficult to cross lace small wheels.

The front wheels on my expedition are 406, but some earlier models are
349s. I've not tried lacing either one.

On Saturday, October 14, 2023 at 7:46:32 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/14/2023 2:50 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:41:02 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/13/2023 5:32 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2023 17:05:30 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 10/13/2023 4:30 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've already decided that I will lace my new hub with a two
> >>>>> cross pattern like the old one. I'm wondering if any experienced
> >>>>> wheel lacers can comment on interlacing vs not interlacing.
> >>>>> I've always thought it was standard procedure, but I've recently read
> >>>>> that it doesn't really make a any difference. It'll be a 32 hole
> >>>>> wheel, with 2.0 Stainless Steel spokes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Ideal spoke angle for 32h is 3x not two.
> >>>> Do interlace the final cross.
> >>>
> >>> Catrike uses 2x interlaced. Remember that a trike doesn't lean in
> >>> turns and therefore takes more transverse force. Also, there will be
> >>> no brake on this wheel.
> >>
> >> I have to say I'm not an expert but that goes against my
> >> intuition. I'll assume the people at Cat Trike who have
> >> experience know best.
> >
> > That's what I've done. I recently read that when spokes are interlaced
> > the constant rubbing can result in wear. I've never broken a spoke on
> > the Catrike and with 37000+ miles on the wheels, I'm inclined to
> > follow Catrike's policy of interlacing too.
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone has experienced a broken spoke or has seen
> > indication of wear at the contact location. I don't see any wear, but
> > I won't be able to see clearly until I remove them. My front wheels
> > (406) also have 37000+ miles and I expect to do many more. They have
> > sealed (currently ceramic) bearings and the hubs and rims should last
> > forever, but I'm wondering if I should be thinking about respoking
> > them.
> >
> > It looks like (I've only seen pictures) the new rear wheel I bought is
> > standard 3x and expect standard over-over-under interlacing.
> Spoke abrasion at the cross correlates with low spoke
> tension and less rigid rims.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I had an old Schwinn with free chain ring and the 27 X 1.1/4 rims laced 3X tacoed just mounting up at 220 pounds 100 kg body weight. Top bar was high so I would push with on left pedal, then swing right leg over.

Had a recumbent bicycle break left rear spokes on me 26 x 1 1/4, 2 x 7, so I had a rear wheel built with no spoke crossing on left side to deal with the low tension.

On 10/14/2023 8:46 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> Spoke abrasion at the cross correlates with low spoke tension and less
> rigid rims.

Has anyone known a spoke to fail due to abrasion at the spoke cross
point? I've broken spokes, but never there.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/14/2023 2:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/14/2023 8:46 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> Spoke abrasion at the cross correlates with low spoke
>> tension and less rigid rims.
>
> Has anyone known a spoke to fail due to abrasion at the
> spoke cross point? I've broken spokes, but never there.
>

I posted here once some photos of spoke failures at the
crosses from salt spray but they were not abraded to failure.

Deep abrasion at spoke crosses can be amazingly loud with
normal wheel flexing and that's the usual rider complaint.
Otherwise we probably would not notice the effect.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 14 Oct 2023 15:11:15 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/14/2023 2:14 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/14/2023 8:46 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> Spoke abrasion at the cross correlates with low spoke
>>> tension and less rigid rims.
>>
>> Has anyone known a spoke to fail due to abrasion at the
>> spoke cross point? I've broken spokes, but never there.
>>
>
>I posted here once some photos of spoke failures at the
>crosses from salt spray but they were not abraded to failure.
>
>Deep abrasion at spoke crosses can be amazingly loud with
>normal wheel flexing and that's the usual rider complaint.
>Otherwise we probably would not notice the effect.

...and it's louder when it's right behind your ears. I've been assuming
that the clicking I've been hearing was a loose spoke. It stopped when
I trued up the wheel, but now it's doing it again.

I had a number of issues a few days ago when I tackled the segment of
the Suncoast Trail that runs through Hernando County. Very hilly, at
least for Florida. The spoke clicking started and I had a few
shifting errors. Time to fix the wobbly cassette.

On 2023-10-14, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 10/14/2023 8:46 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> Spoke abrasion at the cross correlates with low spoke tension and less
>> rigid rims.
>
> Has anyone known a spoke to fail due to abrasion at the spoke cross
> point? I've broken spokes, but never there.
>

I've never had a spoke failure at the spoke-support (z-axis) cross.

That's one data point, I guess.

pH in Aptos

On 10/14/2023 4:31 PM, pH wrote:
> On 2023-10-14, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 10/14/2023 8:46 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> Spoke abrasion at the cross correlates with low spoke tension and less
>>> rigid rims.
>>
>> Has anyone known a spoke to fail due to abrasion at the spoke cross
>> point? I've broken spokes, but never there.
>>
>
> I've never had a spoke failure at the spoke-support (z-axis) cross.
>
> That's one data point, I guess.
>
> pH in Aptos

+1
The clicking noise drives riders to distraction but that
alone is not a cause of spoke failure.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:03:03 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/14/2023 4:31 PM, pH wrote:
>> On 2023-10-14, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 10/14/2023 8:46 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Spoke abrasion at the cross correlates with low spoke tension and less
>>>> rigid rims.
>>>
>>> Has anyone known a spoke to fail due to abrasion at the spoke cross
>>> point? I've broken spokes, but never there.
>>>
>>
>> I've never had a spoke failure at the spoke-support (z-axis) cross.
>>
>> That's one data point, I guess.
>>
>> pH in Aptos
>
>+1
>The clicking noise drives riders to distraction but that
>alone is not a cause of spoke failure.

Didn't Jobst mention tying or soldering spokes where they crossed?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 10/15/2023 8:39 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2023 10:03:03 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 10/14/2023 4:31 PM, pH wrote:
>>> On 2023-10-14, Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 10/14/2023 8:46 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Spoke abrasion at the cross correlates with low spoke tension and less
>>>>> rigid rims.
>>>>
>>>> Has anyone known a spoke to fail due to abrasion at the spoke cross
>>>> point? I've broken spokes, but never there.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've never had a spoke failure at the spoke-support (z-axis) cross.
>>>
>>> That's one data point, I guess.
>>>
>>> pH in Aptos
>>
>> +1
>> The clicking noise drives riders to distraction but that
>> alone is not a cause of spoke failure.
>
> Didn't Jobst mention tying or soldering spokes where they crossed?

Jobst said it was a waste of time. Despite the myths promoting it, it
had no benefit.

--
- Frank Krygowski