On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 1:08:05 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 16:16:56 +0200, David Brown
> <david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>
> >On 29/03/2022 15:00, Rickster wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 7:12:23 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
> >>> From comp.risks https://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/33/11/#subj1.1
> >>>
> >>> The website referred to appears to be collating information in
> >>> a reasonable and unemotional way.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Every Tesla Accident Resulting in Death (Tesla Deaths)
> >>> Gabe Goldberg <ga...@gabegold.com>
> >>> Thu, 24 Mar 2022 01:53:39 -0400
> >>>
> >>> We provide an updated record of Tesla fatalities and Tesla accident deaths
> >>> that have been reported and as much related crash data as possible
> >>> (e.g. location of crash, names of deceased, etc.). This sheet also tallies
> >>> claimed and confirmed Tesla autopilot crashes, i.e. instances when
> >>> Autopilot was activated during a Tesla crash that resulted in death. Read
> >>> our other sheets for additional data and analysis on vehicle miles traveled,
> >>> links and analysis comparing Musk's safety claims, and more.
> >>>
> >>> Tesla Deaths Total as of 3/23/2022: 246
> >>> Tesla Autopilot Deaths Count: 12
> >>>
> >>> https://www.tesladeaths.com/
> >>
> >> Yeah, it's raw data. Did you have a point?
> >>
> >
> >Without comparisons to other types of car, and correlations with other
> >factors, such raw data is useless. You'd need to compare to other
> >high-end electric cars, other petrol cars in similar price ranges and
> >styles. You'd want to look at statistics for "typical Tesla drivers"
> >(who are significantly richer than the average driver, but I don't know
> >what other characteristics might be relevant - age, gender, driving
> >experience, etc.) You'd have to compare statistics for the countries
> >and parts of countries where Teslas are common.
> >
> >And you would /definitely/ want to anonymise the data. If I had a
> >family member who was killed in a car crash, I would not be happy about
> >their name and details of their death being used for some sort of absurd
> >Tesla hate-site.
> >
> >I'm no fan of Teslas myself. I like a car to be controlled like a car,
> >not a giant iPhone (and I don't like iPhones either). I don't like the
> >heavy tax breaks given by Norway to a luxury car, and I don't like the
> >environmental costs of making them (though I am glad to see improvements
> >on that front). I don't like some of the silly claims people make about
> >them - like Apple gadgets, they seem to bring out the fanboy in some of
> >their owners. But that's all just me and my personal preferences and
> >opinions - if someone else likes them, that's fine. Many Tesla owners
> >are very happy with their cars (and some are unhappy - just as for any
> >other car manufacturer). I can't see any reason for trying to paint
> >them as evil death-traps - you'd need very strong statistical basis for
> >that, not just a list of accidents.
>
> Yeahbut the problem is conventional cars don't tend to lock all the
> doors trapping everyone inside and then burst into flames like Teslas
> do. Call me old fashioned if you like, but I don't see that as being a
> great selling point.

Mostly because it's a huge exaggeration, and you know that. I expect you'd rather drive a Pinto.

--

Rick C.

--++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 18:59:33 +0200, David Brown
<david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:

>On 01/04/2022 18:39, Ricky wrote:
>> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:12:26 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>>> On 01/04/2022 14:42, Ricky wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:19:31 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>>> On 31/03/22 23:39, David Brown wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/04/2022 00:29, Ricky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sorry, that's not how an autopilot works. It doesn't fly the
>>>>>>> plane. It simply maintains a heading and altitude.
>>>>> They have been doing more than that for for > 50 years. Cat 3b
>>>>> landings were in operation when I was a kid.
>>>>>>> Someone still has to be watching for other aircraft and
>>>>>>> otherwise flying the plane. In other words, the pilot is
>>>>>>> responsible for flying the plane, with or without the
>>>>>>> autopilot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, that's the original idea of a plane autopilot. But modern
>>>>>> ones are more sophisticated and handle course changes along the
>>>>>> planned route, as well as being able to land automatically. And
>>>>>> more important than what plane autopilots actually /do/, is what
>>>>>> people /think/ they do - and remember we are talking about
>>>>>> drivers that think their Tesla "autopilot" will drive their car
>>>>>> while they watch a movie or nap in the back seat.
>>>>> And, to put it kindly, aren't discouraged in that misapprehension
>>>>> by the statements of the cars' manufacturers and salesdroids.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, what's the best set of techniques to get that concept into the
>>>>> heads of twats that think "autopilot" means "it does it for me".
>>>>
>>>> That's Tom Gardner level misinformation. Comments about what people
>>>> think are spurious and unsubstantiated. A class of "twats" can be
>>>> invented that think anything. Nothing matters other than what Tesla
>>>> owners think. They are the ones driving the cars.
>>>>
>>> Are you suggesting that none of the people who drive Teslas are twats?
>>> (Maybe that term is too British for you.)
>>
>> The term is too BS for me. A twat is whoever you want them to be. For all I know, you think everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat. How about if we discuss facts rather than BS?
>>
>
>It means "a stupid person" or "someone who does stupid things". No, not
>everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat - but /some/ are, such as those
>that think their autopilot will drive the car without them paying attention.

The term "autopilot" kind of suggests you can do precisely that,
though.
I don't like these half-baked ideas. Don't call a self-driving car
that until it's *truly* and *safely* autonymous. The worst situation
is giving the driver a false sense of security - which is where we are
currently.

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:19:43 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 18:59:33 +0200, David Brown
> <david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:
>
> >On 01/04/2022 18:39, Ricky wrote:
> >> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:12:26 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> >>> On 01/04/2022 14:42, Ricky wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:19:31 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
> >>>>> On 31/03/22 23:39, David Brown wrote:
> >>>>>> On 01/04/2022 00:29, Ricky wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sorry, that's not how an autopilot works. It doesn't fly the
> >>>>>>> plane. It simply maintains a heading and altitude.
> >>>>> They have been doing more than that for for > 50 years. Cat 3b
> >>>>> landings were in operation when I was a kid.
> >>>>>>> Someone still has to be watching for other aircraft and
> >>>>>>> otherwise flying the plane. In other words, the pilot is
> >>>>>>> responsible for flying the plane, with or without the
> >>>>>>> autopilot.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, that's the original idea of a plane autopilot. But modern
> >>>>>> ones are more sophisticated and handle course changes along the
> >>>>>> planned route, as well as being able to land automatically. And
> >>>>>> more important than what plane autopilots actually /do/, is what
> >>>>>> people /think/ they do - and remember we are talking about
> >>>>>> drivers that think their Tesla "autopilot" will drive their car
> >>>>>> while they watch a movie or nap in the back seat.
> >>>>> And, to put it kindly, aren't discouraged in that misapprehension
> >>>>> by the statements of the cars' manufacturers and salesdroids.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now, what's the best set of techniques to get that concept into the
> >>>>> heads of twats that think "autopilot" means "it does it for me".
> >>>>
> >>>> That's Tom Gardner level misinformation. Comments about what people
> >>>> think are spurious and unsubstantiated. A class of "twats" can be
> >>>> invented that think anything. Nothing matters other than what Tesla
> >>>> owners think. They are the ones driving the cars.
> >>>>
> >>> Are you suggesting that none of the people who drive Teslas are twats?
> >>> (Maybe that term is too British for you.)
> >>
> >> The term is too BS for me. A twat is whoever you want them to be. For all I know, you think everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat. How about if we discuss facts rather than BS?
> >>
> >
> >It means "a stupid person" or "someone who does stupid things". No, not
> >everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat - but /some/ are, such as those
> >that think their autopilot will drive the car without them paying attention.
> The term "autopilot" kind of suggests you can do precisely that,
> though.
> I don't like these half-baked ideas. Don't call a self-driving car
> that until it's *truly* and *safely* autonymous. The worst situation
> is giving the driver a false sense of security - which is where we are
> currently.

In the Tesla "autopilot", "full self driving" and autonomous are three different things. Autopilot is what you can buy and use today. The information on it clearly says you are responsible for driving the vehicle and this is just an "assist". In particular, the car will sound an alarm if you don't maintain a detectable grip on the steering wheel. Full self driving (FSD) is a future product that a few are allowed to beta test. I've never seen anything that suggests you do not need to be in control of the car when using FSD. Tesla does not use the term autonomous other than when Musk is talking about the indefinite future.

If you ignore what a company tells you about the limitations of its products, that's on you. It puts you in the category of people who sue ladder companies because they didn't tell you to not use it in a pig pen.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I know this road well. The speed limit is 20mph, but during the
day 5-10mph is typical.

Given that, the depth to which the Tesla is buried is surprising.

I wonder what will be determined to be the cause of the accident.
(There are many electric scooters around there, some legal,
many not)

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/tesla-goes-flying-window-shop-6905246

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:17:42 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>I know this road well. The speed limit is 20mph, but during the
>day 5-10mph is typical.
>
>Given that, the depth to which the Tesla is buried is surprising.
>
>I wonder what will be determined to be the cause of the accident.
>(There are many electric scooters around there, some legal,
>many not)
>
>https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/tesla-goes-flying-window-shop-6905246

Lucky *that* one didn't burst into flames!

From your source, I see the eco-loons have been out and about
'encouraging people' to give up their cars:

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/rolls-royce-filton-attack-e-6901425?int_source=nba

All in the cause of a healthy climate, of course. :-/

On Monday, April 4, 2022 at 4:33:41 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 8:19:43 PM UTC-4, Cursitor Doom wrote:
> > On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 18:59:33 +0200, David Brown
> > <david...@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> >
> > >On 01/04/2022 18:39, Ricky wrote:
> > >> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:12:26 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
> > >>> On 01/04/2022 14:42, Ricky wrote:
> > >>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 8:19:31 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
> > >>>>> On 31/03/22 23:39, David Brown wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 01/04/2022 00:29, Ricky wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Sorry, that's not how an autopilot works. It doesn't fly the
> > >>>>>>> plane. It simply maintains a heading and altitude.
> > >>>>> They have been doing more than that for for > 50 years. Cat 3b
> > >>>>> landings were in operation when I was a kid.
> > >>>>>>> Someone still has to be watching for other aircraft and
> > >>>>>>> otherwise flying the plane. In other words, the pilot is
> > >>>>>>> responsible for flying the plane, with or without the
> > >>>>>>> autopilot.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Yes, that's the original idea of a plane autopilot. But modern
> > >>>>>> ones are more sophisticated and handle course changes along the
> > >>>>>> planned route, as well as being able to land automatically. And
> > >>>>>> more important than what plane autopilots actually /do/, is what
> > >>>>>> people /think/ they do - and remember we are talking about
> > >>>>>> drivers that think their Tesla "autopilot" will drive their car
> > >>>>>> while they watch a movie or nap in the back seat.
> > >>>>> And, to put it kindly, aren't discouraged in that misapprehension
> > >>>>> by the statements of the cars' manufacturers and salesdroids.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Now, what's the best set of techniques to get that concept into the
> > >>>>> heads of twats that think "autopilot" means "it does it for me".
> > >>>>
> > >>>> That's Tom Gardner level misinformation. Comments about what people
> > >>>> think are spurious and unsubstantiated. A class of "twats" can be
> > >>>> invented that think anything. Nothing matters other than what Tesla
> > >>>> owners think. They are the ones driving the cars.
> > >>>>
> > >>> Are you suggesting that none of the people who drive Teslas are twats?
> > >>> (Maybe that term is too British for you.)
> > >>
> > >> The term is too BS for me. A twat is whoever you want them to be. For all I know, you think everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat. How about if we discuss facts rather than BS?
> > >>
> > >
> > >It means "a stupid person" or "someone who does stupid things". No, not
> > >everyone who drives a Tesla is a twat - but /some/ are, such as those
> > >that think their autopilot will drive the car without them paying attention.
> > The term "autopilot" kind of suggests you can do precisely that,
> > though.
> > I don't like these half-baked ideas. Don't call a self-driving car
> > that until it's *truly* and *safely* autonymous. The worst situation
> > is giving the driver a false sense of security - which is where we are
> > currently.
> In the Tesla "autopilot", "full self driving" and autonomous are three different things. Autopilot is what you can buy and use today. The information on it clearly says you are responsible for driving the vehicle and this is just an "assist". In particular, the car will sound an alarm if you don't maintain a detectable grip on the steering wheel. Full self driving (FSD) is a future product that a few are allowed to beta test. I've never seen anything that suggests you do not need to be in control of the car when using FSD. Tesla does not use the term autonomous other than when Musk is talking about the indefinite future.
>
> If you ignore what a company tells you about the limitations of its products, that's on you. It puts you in the category of people who sue ladder companies because they didn't tell you to not use it in a pig pen.
>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> -+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> -+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

This falls into the category of it can either do it or it can't, and the Tesla "autopilot" can't. Anything that is actively driving the car but ISN'T driving the car legally is, by definition, a fraud.