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tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

SubjectAuthor
* Inline Electric Timer SwitchRickster
+* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchRich S
|+* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchMartin Brown
||`- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDon Y
|`* Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchbud--
| +* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchRicky
| |`- Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchbud--
| `* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchMartin Brown
|  `- Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchbud--
+* Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchwhit3rd
|`* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchCydrome Leader
| `* Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchwhit3rd
|  `- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchCydrome Leader
+* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchJohn Robertson
|`* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchRickster
| `* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchJohn Robertson
|  `- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchRickster
+* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDavid Brown
|`* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchRickster
| +- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDan Purgert
| +* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDavid Brown
| |`* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchRickster
| | `* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDavid Brown
| |  `- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchRicky
| `* Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchbud--
|  `* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchRicky
|   +- Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchbud--
|   `- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchCydrome Leader
+* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDan Purgert
|+- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDon Y
|`* Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchbud--
| +* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchMartin Brown
| |`* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchJeroen Belleman
| | `- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchMartin Brown
| `* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDan Purgert
|  `* Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchbud--
|   +* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDan Purgert
|   |+* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchRicky
|   ||`* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDan Purgert
|   || `* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchRicky
|   ||  `- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchDan Purgert
|   |`- Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchbud--
|   `* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchCydrome Leader
|    `* Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchbud--
|     `* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchCydrome Leader
|      `* Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchbud--
|       `* Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchCydrome Leader
|        `* Re: Inline Electric Timer Switchwhit3rd
|         `- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchCydrome Leader
`- Re: Inline Electric Timer SwitchChris Jones

Pages:12
Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<slrnt4bee2.4gd.dan@djph.net>

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From: dan...@djph.net (Dan Purgert)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:25:06 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Dan Purgert - Thu, 31 Mar 2022 14:25 UTC

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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bud-- wrote:
> On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>
>> A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
>> get burned out, they need replaced).
>>
>
> I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".

My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet
bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.

Now, that "finite lifespan" is merely for expectation of the MOVs to do
their job -- long as the bar itself is still physically sound, it'll
work as an extension cord (etc.) practically forever (albeit without any
"safety features").

Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.

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|O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<2662ce75-4b6f-4a0d-9757-5deff9be722cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Ricky)
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 by: Ricky - Thu, 31 Mar 2022 20:28 UTC

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 12:25:31 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
> On 3/29/2022 12:14 PM, Rich S wrote:
> > First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.
> >
> > Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost accrued if out of service)
> >
> > Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.
> Lightning rod systems will. They include more protection than just the
> rods (now called "air terminals"). Not cost-effective for most of us,
> but very useful for some.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with lightning rod "systems". I do know that lightning rods won't do diddly in this case because they reduce damage to structures from a direct lightning strike, while the typical damage to electronics is from the magnetic field of a strike inducing very large currents in exterior conductors connected to equipment. Are you referring to something to prevent the surge from an external line from getting into the house? They exist, but are very, very expensive. They also don't protect equipment inside the house from a very close lightning strike (such as to the lightning rod) from inducing currents directly in the house.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<d048e8c2-c1eb-4994-9f8d-82d6395a2a1en@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Ricky)
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 by: Ricky - Thu, 31 Mar 2022 20:31 UTC

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 12:29:25 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
> On 3/29/2022 2:22 PM, Rickster wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>
> >
> >> Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
> >> strips are common and cheap.
> >
> > I don't agree with that. Most "surge" protectors are nearly worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the power supply.
> >
> The IEEE guide, cited elsewhere, does not indicate that "Most 'surge'
> protectors are nearly worthless". Buy one from a competent company. And
> UL listed provides at least a minimum floor.
>
> MOVs fail by the voltage at which they start to conduct lowering after
> hits totaling at least the joule rating to the source voltage, and the
> MOV goes into thermal runaway. All UL listed suppressors should have a
> disconnect for failing MOVs that operates at least partly on heat.
> Recent UL listed suppressors disconnect the connected load with the MOVs
> (or inform you that they don't). UL listed suppressor? Do you know it
> failed? Was there a surge? Is there a reason to believe the microwave
> didn't just fail (fairly new is not a guarantee)?

There are no guarantees in life, or even in death, except that it will happen someday.
There's no guarantees at all for birth, most of which never happen.

> Suppressors with protected equipment warranties are available. They are
> possible because of the disconnect feature above, and the low amount of
> energy that can actually reach a suppressor (in another post).

The $10 surge protectors come with warranties, including coverage of the connected equipment. Need I say more?

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<2Hu1K.361406$t2Bb.308694@fx98.iad>

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
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From: nul...@void.com (bud--)
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 by: bud-- - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 04:53 UTC

On 3/31/2022 2:28 PM, Ricky wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 12:25:31 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
>> On 3/29/2022 12:14 PM, Rich S wrote:
>>> First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.
>>>
>>> Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including risk, cost accrued if out of service)
>>>
>>> Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.
>>
>> Lightning rod systems will. They include more protection than just the
>> rods (now called "air terminals"). Not cost-effective for most of us,
>> but very useful for some.
>
> Sorry, I'm not familiar with lightning rod "systems".

Any lightning rod installation, except a barn, will be a "system". In
the US the relevant standard is NFPA 780. The system will include a
service panel surge suppressor (the IEEE guide says the minimum rating
is 40kA). Also includes features like metal within 6 ft. of rod wiring
and down conductors may need to be bonded to the conductors. That is
because of the high voltage drop at earthing electrodes and in the
inductance of the conductors may result in voltages that will flash
across 6 ft.

> I do know that lightning rods won't do diddly in this case because they reduce damage to structures from a direct lightning strike, while the typical damage to electronics is from the magnetic field of a strike inducing very large currents in exterior conductors connected to equipment. Are you referring to something to prevent the surge from an external line from getting into the house? They exist, but are very, very expensive.

Most damaging after a direct strike is surges coming in on power and
signal wires.

The NIST surge expert investigated how much energy can enter a residence
from a near strike. The strike was 200kA to the distribution wire at the
top of a utility pole adjacent to a house with typical urban overhead
distribution. This is a very near strike. And only 5% of strikes are
stronger. For practical purposes this is a worst case. The current was
10kA per service wire (mentioned yesterday, and also in the IEEE guide).
Service panel surge suppressors are readily available with ratings far
larger. The IEEE guide suggests a rating (per wire) of 20kA to 70kA
unless in a high lightning area. I would not call these suppressors
"very expensive". Protection is also needed for incoming signal wires.

> They also don't protect equipment inside the house from a very close lightning strike (such as to the lightning rod) from inducing currents directly in the house.
>

A near strike can induce high voltages between power and signal wires
with the loop formed by the wires acting as a loop antenna. It is a case
where service entrance suppressors are not complete protection. But
plug-in suppressors, with all wires going through the suppressor,
provide protection.

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<FKu1K.509355$LN2.325224@fx13.iad>

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
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 by: bud-- - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 04:56 UTC

On 3/31/2022 2:31 PM, Ricky wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 12:29:25 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
>
>> Suppressors with protected equipment warranties are available. They are
>> possible because of the disconnect feature above, and the low amount of
>> energy that can actually reach a suppressor (in another post).
>
> The $10 surge protectors come with warranties, including coverage of the connected equipment. Need I say more?
>

I have never seen a suppressor with warranty for $10.

UL listed plug-in suppressors are reliable (and probably not $10 without
a warranty).

Surge protection is not rocket science. Businesses, for instance in
Florida, do not shut down for thunderstorms. Highly unlikely residents
of Florida haven't figured out how to protect their equipment. Read the
IEEE guide

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<DPu1K.382810$iK66.365398@fx46.iad>

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
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 by: bud-- - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 05:02 UTC

On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> bud-- wrote:
>> On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>
>>> A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
>>> get burned out, they need replaced).
>>>
>>
>> I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".
>
> My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet
> bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
> internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.

Is not what I have read anywhere.

And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge
rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained
yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is
surprisingly small.

>
> Now, that "finite lifespan" is merely for expectation of the MOVs to do
> their job -- long as the bar itself is still physically sound, it'll
> work as an extension cord (etc.) practically forever (albeit without any
> "safety features").

As I wrote yesterday, a UL listed suppressor is likely to not work as a
plug strip if the MOVs fail (IEEE guide pg. 38).

>
> Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
> actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
> break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.
>

The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<t26e52$gk8$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=93561&group=sci.electronics.design#93561

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:46:24 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <t26e52$gk8$1@gioia.aioe.org>
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 by: Martin Brown - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 08:46 UTC

On 31/03/2022 06:24, bud-- wrote:
> On 3/29/2022 12:14 PM, Rich S wrote:
>> First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.
>>
>> Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including
>> risk, cost accrued if out of service)
>>
>> Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.
>
> Lightning rod systems will. They include more protection than just the
> rods (now called "air terminals"). Not cost-effective for most of us,
> but very useful for some.

The building I was in had proper external lightning protection but it
didn't make that much difference. Afterwards the conductor was the funny
colour that copper goes after being at red heat but the strike still
managed to enter the building and vapourise (parts of) the internal
phone wiring.

I suspect it was ground currents and magnetic coupling loops of cable
between terminals and mains wiring that took out the line drivers.
Whatever it was the expensive surge protection kit saved itself by
letting the more expensive IO driver boards in the terminal concentrator
get fried.

> The max surge with any reasonable probability of occurring, US,
> residential, typical overhead urban distribution, is 10kA per service
> wire. Pg 18 has recommendations for service panel protection. (also see
> joules that can make it to a plug-in suppressor elsewhere)

UK has spark gaps on the local mains down transformers so that anything
much over 150kV on a nominally 33kV line will arc over on the HT side.
The arc looks like a dead short and takes out the breakers.

Nothing can help you if lightning strikes an overhead local mains line
the injection of current has to go somewhere and fast.

> When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to a
> set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
> voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor. (The
> same thing happens at a service panel suppressor, which needs voltage
> clamps on incoming signal wires adjacent.)

The thing about the suppressor protection is that it needs to be
connected to a very good earth with a chunky conductor and that
condition isn't always met. Particularly in summer after a long dry spell.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<slrnt4dimv.4gd.dan@djph.net>

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From: dan...@djph.net (Dan Purgert)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:50:24 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Dan Purgert - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:50 UTC

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

bud-- wrote:
> On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> [...]
>> Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
>> actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
>> break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.
>>
>
> The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
> ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
> wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.

So I just looked at my decent-ish $15 (or so) Belkin 6-outlet bars that
are kind of my go-to when I get these things ($10k warranty, UL Listed).
Just picked one up last weekend, has some fine print right on the
package:

"Please Note: The protective components inside surge protectors absorb
over-voltage spikes to your connected devices which means they will
eventually wear out. Replace this device every 3 years or immediately
after any over-voltage spike event[...]"

Sure, it could just be boilerplate / not actually true in all cases, but
at the same time, their connected equipment warranty explicitly states
that they're not gonna cover something outside its service lifetime
either.

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--
|_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
|O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<48aa93aa-5fd7-4d4e-b3e9-86a1bad8b3d3n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Ricky)
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 by: Ricky - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 12:27 UTC

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:50:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
> bud-- wrote:
> > On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
> >> actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
> >> break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.
> >>
> >
> > The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
> > ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
> > wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.
> So I just looked at my decent-ish $15 (or so) Belkin 6-outlet bars that
> are kind of my go-to when I get these things ($10k warranty, UL Listed).
> Just picked one up last weekend, has some fine print right on the
> package:
>
> "Please Note: The protective components inside surge protectors absorb
> over-voltage spikes to your connected devices which means they will
> eventually wear out. Replace this device every 3 years or immediately
> after any over-voltage spike event[...]"
>
> Sure, it could just be boilerplate / not actually true in all cases, but
> at the same time, their connected equipment warranty explicitly states
> that they're not gonna cover something outside its service lifetime
> either.

That's the point. It's like the scene in Tommy Boy, where Tommy is trying to sell his line of brake pads to the retailer who wants to see a guarantee on the box as a sign of quality. Tommy says he can take a crap in the box and put a guarantee on the side. The guarantees are as much BS as the surge suppression on the cheap units. I'm sure they will stand behind their product if you can meet every single part of the requirements. How are you going to do that?

They took a crap in the box and slapped a guarantee on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEB7WbTTlu4

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<slrnt4e6q4.4gd.dan@djph.net>

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From: dan...@djph.net (Dan Purgert)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 15:33:24 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Dan Purgert - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 15:33 UTC

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Ricky wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:50:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> bud-- wrote:
>> > On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> >> [...]
>> >> Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
>> >> actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
>> >> break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.
>> >>
>> >
>> > The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
>> > ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
>> > wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.
>> So I just looked at my decent-ish $15 (or so) Belkin 6-outlet bars that
>> are kind of my go-to when I get these things ($10k warranty, UL Listed).
>> Just picked one up last weekend, has some fine print right on the
>> package:
>>
>> "Please Note: The protective components inside surge protectors absorb
>> over-voltage spikes to your connected devices which means they will
>> eventually wear out. Replace this device every 3 years or immediately
>> after any over-voltage spike event[...]"
>>
>> Sure, it could just be boilerplate / not actually true in all cases, but
>> at the same time, their connected equipment warranty explicitly states
>> that they're not gonna cover something outside its service lifetime
>> either.
>
> That's the point. It's like the scene in Tommy Boy, where Tommy is

No it's not. That scene the buyer is saying he won't buy the Callahan
brake pads because he doesn't get a guarantee on the box (guarantee on
the box makes ya feel warm and fuzzy inside, y'know?).

The only reason I brought up the Belkin "warranty" is that one of the
requirements therein is that the surge protector is within its "service
life" (in the case of the particular product I had to hand - 36 months
from date of purchase).

Conversely, the APC ones I have (for $5-10 more) have a little "I'm
still working" indicator. Which, apparently can go out while still
allowing plugged in devices to function -- the wording is such that
while they do have a "fail safe" in the event of catastrophic events,
the indicator will go out any time the device can no longer provide
100% protection.

In either event -- catastrophic event cutout, indicator going dark, or
the simple passage of time -- the devices have a finite length to their
expected service life. Time is, of course, the most restrictive thing
there, but honestly, the terms of those connected device warranties
always give me the idea that (as a regular consumer), you're not
actually ever going to get reimbursed for stuff plugged into the surge
protector.

Then again, I've never had to try invoking one of those clauses
either...

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--
|_|O|_| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|_|_|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860
|O|O|O| Former PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<aadd6f5a-ffed-4556-82c0-c7137493a345n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Ricky)
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 by: Ricky - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 17:02 UTC

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 11:33:32 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
> Ricky wrote:
> > On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 5:50:31 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> bud-- wrote:
> >> > On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> >> >> [...]
> >> >> Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
> >> >> actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
> >> >> break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
> >> > ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
> >> > wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.
> >> So I just looked at my decent-ish $15 (or so) Belkin 6-outlet bars that
> >> are kind of my go-to when I get these things ($10k warranty, UL Listed).
> >> Just picked one up last weekend, has some fine print right on the
> >> package:
> >>
> >> "Please Note: The protective components inside surge protectors absorb
> >> over-voltage spikes to your connected devices which means they will
> >> eventually wear out. Replace this device every 3 years or immediately
> >> after any over-voltage spike event[...]"
> >>
> >> Sure, it could just be boilerplate / not actually true in all cases, but
> >> at the same time, their connected equipment warranty explicitly states
> >> that they're not gonna cover something outside its service lifetime
> >> either.
> >
> > That's the point. It's like the scene in Tommy Boy, where Tommy is
> No it's not. That scene the buyer is saying he won't buy the Callahan
> brake pads because he doesn't get a guarantee on the box (guarantee on
> the box makes ya feel warm and fuzzy inside, y'know?).
>
> The only reason I brought up the Belkin "warranty" is that one of the
> requirements therein is that the surge protector is within its "service
> life" (in the case of the particular product I had to hand - 36 months
> from date of purchase).
>
> Conversely, the APC ones I have (for $5-10 more) have a little "I'm
> still working" indicator. Which, apparently can go out while still
> allowing plugged in devices to function -- the wording is such that
> while they do have a "fail safe" in the event of catastrophic events,
> the indicator will go out any time the device can no longer provide
> 100% protection.

There is no 100% protection. They protect against some level of surge, period. More than that surge and your equipment goes "poof". You are left with a worthless warranty as they don't warrant your equipment will not be damaged by surges over their threshold.

> In either event -- catastrophic event cutout, indicator going dark, or
> the simple passage of time -- the devices have a finite length to their
> expected service life. Time is, of course, the most restrictive thing
> there, but honestly, the terms of those connected device warranties
> always give me the idea that (as a regular consumer), you're not
> actually ever going to get reimbursed for stuff plugged into the surge
> protector.
>
> Then again, I've never had to try invoking one of those clauses
> either...

Exactly! How may reimbursements are they going to afford selling $15 outlet strips with a $10k warranty? None! They are never going to pay out because they will find some reason you don't qualify. The warranty on the box does give you a warm, fuzzy feeling inside though, doesn't it? So I guess it *is* the same, eh?

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
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 by: Dan Purgert - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 23:46 UTC

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Ricky wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 11:33:32 AM UTC-4, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> [...]
>> Conversely, the APC ones I have (for $5-10 more) have a little "I'm
>> still working" indicator. Which, apparently can go out while still
>> allowing plugged in devices to function -- the wording is such that
>> while they do have a "fail safe" in the event of catastrophic events,
>> the indicator will go out any time the device can no longer provide
>> 100% protection.
>
> There is no 100% protection. They protect against some level of
> surge, period. More than that surge and your equipment goes "poof".
> You are left with a worthless warranty as they don't warrant your
> equipment will not be damaged by surges over their threshold.

Yeah, I know. That's APC's wording in their product insert.

>> In either event -- catastrophic event cutout, indicator going dark, or
>> the simple passage of time -- the devices have a finite length to their
>> expected service life. Time is, of course, the most restrictive thing
>> there, but honestly, the terms of those connected device warranties
>> always give me the idea that (as a regular consumer), you're not
>> actually ever going to get reimbursed for stuff plugged into the surge
>> protector.
>>
>> Then again, I've never had to try invoking one of those clauses
>> either...
>
> Exactly! How may reimbursements are they going to afford selling $15
> outlet strips with a $10k warranty? None! They are never going to
> pay out because they will find some reason you don't qualify. The
> warranty on the box does give you a warm, fuzzy feeling inside though,
> doesn't it?

No. I know it's a farce. But I guess if it makes you feel better to
pretend I bought the $15 thing with the "feelgood box art" instead of
the $20 one with the "feelgood LED", go right ahead.

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Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
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 by: bud-- - Sat, 2 Apr 2022 04:57 UTC

On 4/1/2022 2:46 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 31/03/2022 06:24, bud-- wrote:
>> On 3/29/2022 12:14 PM, Rich S wrote:
>>> First THANK YOU, RC, for an on-topic post.
>>>
>>> Whats the total cost of what you're trying to protect? (including
>>> risk, cost accrued if out of service)
>>>
>>> Nothing will save you from a direct lightning hit of course.
>>
>> Lightning rod systems will. They include more protection than just the
>> rods (now called "air terminals"). Not cost-effective for most of us,
>> but very useful for some.
>
> The building I was in had proper external lightning protection but it
> didn't make that much difference. Afterwards the conductor was the funny
> colour that copper goes after being at red heat but the strike still
> managed to enter the building and vapourise (parts of) the internal
> phone wiring.
>
> I suspect it was ground currents and magnetic coupling loops of cable
> between terminals and mains wiring that took out the line drivers.
> Whatever it was the expensive surge protection kit saved itself by
> letting the more expensive IO driver boards in the terminal concentrator
> get fried.

Not having seen how the building was protected....

You can get over 100,000A in a strike, but the duration is microseconds.
Hard to imagine in the US, with at least 2 large gauge downconductors to
earthing systems the wires would get hot enough to discolor.

>
>> The max surge with any reasonable probability of occurring, US,
>> residential, typical overhead urban distribution, is 10kA per service
>> wire. Pg 18 has recommendations for service panel protection. (also
>> see joules that can make it to a plug-in suppressor elsewhere)
>
> UK has spark gaps on the local mains down transformers so that anything
> much over 150kV on a nominally 33kV line will arc over on the HT side.
> The arc looks like a dead short and takes out the breakers.

Sound like fun to watch. But lightning arresters on the primary protect
transformers. They don't provide much protection to buildings.

>
> Nothing can help you if lightning strikes an overhead local mains line
> the injection of current has to go somewhere and fast.

"Nothing can help you"? I just explained what can help you.
A recognized expert in a published paper found that a 200,000A strike to
the primary wire on a utility pole adjacent to a building with typical
overhead urban distribution results in 10kA surges on the power service
wires to the building. Service panel suppressors, with far higher
ratings, limit the voltage from the service wires to the service
"ground". The "ground" in the US is connected to earthing electrode(s),
which is where most of the energy to the building goes.

>
>> When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to
>> a set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
>> voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor. (The
>> same thing happens at a service panel suppressor, which needs voltage
>> clamps on incoming signal wires adjacent.)
>
> The thing about the suppressor protection is that it needs to be
> connected to a very good earth with a chunky conductor and that
> condition isn't always met. Particularly in summer after a long dry spell.

Plug-in suppressors do not protect primarily by earthing a surge. They
can't - the impedance of the wires is too high. The ground potential at
the suppressor can rise thousands of volts above the ground potential at
the service entrance "ground", described in the IEEE guide pg 30-35. The
guide explains, starting pg 35, that plug-in suppressors work primarily
by limiting the voltage on all wires, power and signal, to the ground at
the suppressor. The voltage between wires going to the protected
equipment is safe for the protected equipment (as I wrote above).

The guide, on pg 28, looks at the ground potential rise of the "ground"
at the service (specifically signal, but it the same for power). The
building "ground" can rise, in this example 250,000V, above earth
potential distant from the building (that would cause arcing across the
earth from the ground rod away). Much of the protection, again, is that
service panel suppressors and signal entry protectors limit the voltage
to the ground at the panel. The voltage between wires inside the
building is generally safe for the connected equipment (as I wrote
above). (One exception is pg 33, another - induced pick up from a near
strike to wire loop in a previous post.)

Protection likely does not primarily involve earthing the surge.

Read the IEEE surge guide - written for technical people
<http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<xUP1K.220192$41E7.172610@fx37.iad>

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
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 by: bud-- - Sat, 2 Apr 2022 05:00 UTC

On 4/1/2022 3:50 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> bud-- wrote:
>> On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
>>> actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
>>> break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.
>>>
>>
>> The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
>> ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
>> wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.
>
> So I just looked at my decent-ish $15 (or so) Belkin 6-outlet bars that
> are kind of my go-to when I get these things ($10k warranty, UL Listed).
> Just picked one up last weekend, has some fine print right on the
> package:
>
> "Please Note: The protective components inside surge protectors absorb
> over-voltage spikes to your connected devices which means they will
> eventually wear out. Replace this device every 3 years or immediately
> after any over-voltage spike event[...]"
>
> Sure, it could just be boilerplate / not actually true in all cases, but
> at the same time, their connected equipment warranty explicitly states
> that they're not gonna cover something outside its service lifetime
> either.
>

I haven't looked at Belkin for a long time.

I looked at one suppressor (at Belkin site) with the same 3 year
language. It also said "and a lifetime $75,000 Connected Equipment
Warranty." IMHO if sued (could be small claims court here) Belkin would
have trouble denying coverage. One problem with a surge warranty is
people think any damage with an unknown cause, like to a microwave, is
from a surge.

I couldn't find warranties at Belkin, or user manuals. UL wording I saw
did not clearly say suppressors were UL LISTED - tested BY UL to UL1449.
Belkin seems to have branched out into other products.

From a previous post, from published research, with up to 10kA surge on
power wires, and no suppressor a the service, the maximum energy
absorbed by a MOV on a branch circuit was 35J. In 13 of 15 cases it was
1 joule or less. The Belkin suppressor I looked at had a rating of 1045J.

Companies in high lightning areas of Florida do not move to Nevada
because of thunderstorm damage. Principles of protection are well
understood. Five engineers experienced in surge protection wrote the
IEEE surge guide, which details the base principles. The guide says
plug-in suppressors are effective and says how to use them. Also lots of
information on other protection elements.

Read the IEEE surge guide
<http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

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From: prese...@MUNGEpanix.com (Cydrome Leader)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 17:31:07 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <t2a18r$6dq$4@reader1.panix.com>
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 by: Cydrome Leader - Sat, 2 Apr 2022 17:31 UTC

whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 10:50:55 AM UTC-7, Rickster wrote:
>>...The problem is lots of electric surges that fry various electronics. One solution is using an outlet strip so power is removed when not in use.
>
>> The other solution would be to add a proper surge protector...
>> but what is typically used to protect computer equipment where the value is less than say, $5,000?
>
> That 'computer equipment' has sacrificial parts, and the fancy PC only needs a $50 replacement power
> brick when the surges kill it. The third solution is to plan, somewhat, for the larger surges by making
> the failure modes graceful and repairable.
>
> A friend in an urban home got my last ferroresonant power supply, so I don't have a really good
> surge protector any more, and for a few decades now, I haven't missed it.

Glad somebody brought up ferroresonant power supplies.

Simple, reliable, but terribly expensive and inefficient. I need to move a
2000VA unit soon. The garbage from a line they will block is impressive.
You still have problems is you have devices connected by other means to
other power sources or places. This can be ethernet, and especially
telecom lines.

Isolation transformers work pretty good too, but don't help during a
brown-out or with regulation issues if that's an key issue.

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
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 by: whit3rd - Sat, 2 Apr 2022 22:15 UTC

On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > A friend [in a rural home] got my last ferroresonant power supply, so I don't have a really good
> > surge protector any more, and for a few decades now, I haven't missed it.
>
> Glad somebody brought up ferroresonant power supplies.
>
> Simple, reliable, but terribly expensive and inefficient.

Yeah; they claim 85% efficient, BUT that means the 400VA unit wasted 60W
even when lightly loaded.

> I need to move a
> 2000VA unit soon.

You'll want a cart; that's gonna be circa 100 pounds of steel and copper.

>The garbage from a line they will block is impressive.
Yeah. Mass does good that way.

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

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From: prese...@MUNGEpanix.com (Cydrome Leader)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 18:33:08 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Cydrome Leader - Sun, 3 Apr 2022 18:33 UTC

whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, April 2, 2022 at 10:31:14 AM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > A friend [in a rural home] got my last ferroresonant power supply, so I don't have a really good
>> > surge protector any more, and for a few decades now, I haven't missed it.
>>
>> Glad somebody brought up ferroresonant power supplies.
>>
>> Simple, reliable, but terribly expensive and inefficient.
>
> Yeah; they claim 85% efficient, BUT that means the 400VA unit wasted 60W
> even when lightly loaded.

That number is only at full load. Since they run at saturation in one leg
at all times, the amount of heat they generate is impressive, even at no
usable load. I've never tossed a scope on the resonant section with the
high voltage capacitors, but there has to be square waves in there
somewhere, yet the output is a perfect sine wave. Fascinating stuff, up
there with magnetic amplifiers and saturable chokes for controlling
lighting or heating loads.

>> I need to move a
>> 2000VA unit soon.
>
> You'll want a cart; that's gonna be circa 100 pounds of steel and copper.
>
>>The garbage from a line they will block is impressive.
>
> Yeah. Mass does good that way.

Never thought of it that way, but they sure store some energy in the
magnetics, sort of like synchronous AC flyweel.

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

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From: prese...@MUNGEpanix.com (Cydrome Leader)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 18:44:10 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <t2cptq$3gd$3@reader1.panix.com>
References: <635cf5fa-3044-4cc8-9a45-8f74586cdb44n@googlegroups.com> <t1vn12$hhj$1@dont-email.me> <15bbeb88-bf35-4a51-974d-1b7d55c96400n@googlegroups.com> <y6a1K.300262$Lbb6.148072@fx45.iad> <d048e8c2-c1eb-4994-9f8d-82d6395a2a1en@googlegroups.com>
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 by: Cydrome Leader - Sun, 3 Apr 2022 18:44 UTC

Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 12:29:25 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:
>> On 3/29/2022 2:22 PM, Rickster wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, March 29, 2022 at 3:35:04 PM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >> Surge protector socket adaptors or outlet
>> >> strips are common and cheap.
>> >
>> > I don't agree with that. Most "surge" protectors are nearly worthless, such as the one the microwave was plugged into when it stopped working. It was a bit funny, in that it came on and I started warming up something that didn't get warm. After a few tries of resetting and unplugging for a bit, it still didn't cook, but started to give an error code after a bit. Now it gives the error code as soon as you start it cooking. H98 means a problem in the power supply.
>> >
>> The IEEE guide, cited elsewhere, does not indicate that "Most 'surge'
>> protectors are nearly worthless". Buy one from a competent company. And
>> UL listed provides at least a minimum floor.
>>
>> MOVs fail by the voltage at which they start to conduct lowering after
>> hits totaling at least the joule rating to the source voltage, and the
>> MOV goes into thermal runaway. All UL listed suppressors should have a
>> disconnect for failing MOVs that operates at least partly on heat.
>> Recent UL listed suppressors disconnect the connected load with the MOVs
>> (or inform you that they don't). UL listed suppressor? Do you know it
>> failed? Was there a surge? Is there a reason to believe the microwave
>> didn't just fail (fairly new is not a guarantee)?
>
> There are no guarantees in life, or even in death, except that it will happen someday.
> There's no guarantees at all for birth, most of which never happen.
>
>
>> Suppressors with protected equipment warranties are available. They are
>> possible because of the disconnect feature above, and the low amount of
>> energy that can actually reach a suppressor (in another post).
>
> The $10 surge protectors come with warranties, including coverage of the connected equipment. Need I say more?

lol, I'd love to see the details of a $25k damage claim against a $10
power strip, with photo of the payout check.

There's a reason they cost $10 and real surge/transient protection costs
way more.

In the continental US, you can get surge arrestors to install at a home
service entrance, even at home depot now. Stuff like this used to be hard
to get, even at a supply house, with a special order. If you have
electronics damaged, it's a good $100 buy. Strings of power strips, even
without surges are dangerous anyways. I've seen dozens of them with burned
or melted receptables, even from moderate loads.

tripp-lite mostly produces garbage these days, but the Isobar grey power
strip devices are still OK. I have never seen on fail past the neon light
on the power switch dying after many years. They're about the safest bet
for permanent use for a temporary power strip.

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<t2cr2e$hgc$1@reader1.panix.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=93710&group=sci.electronics.design#93710

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From: prese...@MUNGEpanix.com (Cydrome Leader)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 19:03:42 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <t2cr2e$hgc$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <635cf5fa-3044-4cc8-9a45-8f74586cdb44n@googlegroups.com> <slrnt470k8.4gd.dan@djph.net> <wba1K.289848$m1S7.91143@fx36.iad> <slrnt4bee2.4gd.dan@djph.net> <DPu1K.382810$iK66.365398@fx46.iad>
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 by: Cydrome Leader - Sun, 3 Apr 2022 19:03 UTC

bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
> On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA512
>>
>> bud-- wrote:
>>> On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
>>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
>>>> get burned out, they need replaced).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".
>>
>> My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet
>> bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
>> internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.
>
> Is not what I have read anywhere.
>
> And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
> plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge
> rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained
> yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is
> surprisingly small.

MOVs absolutely have a finite life. It's in the datasheets and the prime
reason they glue thermal fuses to them in the first place. When they fail,
they short and catch on fire.

Fancy commercial surge arrestors are potted to avoid the smoke cloud, and
even offer alarm contacts to let you know when they failed. The "is
working" LED on consumer powe strips is essentialy the same concept.

A big problem isn't the number of joules making it to and outlet, but how
stuff is connected in your home. For example, your cable box may have a
earth better ground than your outlets if they're poorly wired or just old.
You get the surge or nearyby ligtning strike and now your computer blows
up. Might be from the huge swing across your devices, even though each
would have survived the event if they were not connected.

There have been other fun posts here about massive destruction at the
telco wiring at buildings when there's an electrical issue. Two systems at
different potentials, even for brief periods of time can cause huge
problems.

There's plenty of videos of people drawing sparks off the service panel
ground cables to water pipes or ground rods, and that's not during a
lightning storm, and that's just a few volts.

>> Now, that "finite lifespan" is merely for expectation of the MOVs to do
>> their job -- long as the bar itself is still physically sound, it'll
>> work as an extension cord (etc.) practically forever (albeit without any
>> "safety features").
>
> As I wrote yesterday, a UL listed suppressor is likely to not work as a
> plug strip if the MOVs fail (IEEE guide pg. 38).
>
>>
>> Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
>> actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
>> break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.
>>
>
> The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
> ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
> wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.
>
>

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<i1t2K.222303$41E7.30746@fx37.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=93731&group=sci.electronics.design#93731

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
References: <635cf5fa-3044-4cc8-9a45-8f74586cdb44n@googlegroups.com>
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From: nul...@void.com (bud--)
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Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 21:49:14 -0600
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 by: bud-- - Mon, 4 Apr 2022 03:49 UTC

On 4/3/2022 1:03 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>> On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA512
>>>
>>> bud-- wrote:
>>>> On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
>>>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
>>>>> get burned out, they need replaced).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".
>>>
>>> My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet
>>> bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
>>> internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.
>>
>> Is not what I have read anywhere.
>>
>> And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
>> plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge
>> rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained
>> yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is
>> surprisingly small.
>
> MOVs absolutely have a finite life.

As I have written a couple times, published research by the NIST surge
expert found that with the maximum surge with any reasonable probability
of occurring on power service wires, the energy absorbed at a plug-in
suppressor on a branch circuit was 35J. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule
or less.

The MOV energy rating is for a single event that puts the MOV at its
defined end of life (but still functional). If the energy hits are much
smaller, the cumulative energy rating is much higher. For example a MOV
might have a (single event) rating of 1,000 J. If the individual hits
are 14 J the cumulative energy rating might be 13,000 J. High ratings
give a much longer life.

The Belkin suppressor I looked at has a rating of 1045 J.

As I wrote previously, a UL listed suppressor will disconnect the
protected load if the MOVs fail and are disconnected (or inform you that
they don't) (IEEE guide pg. 38).

And the NIST surge expert has written:
"in fact, the major cause of [surge protector] failures is a temporary
overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge." An example of
overvoltage is crossed distribution and secondary wires. MOVs can handle
thousands of surge amps for the microseconds duration of a surge but are
rapidly burned out by much longer lasting "overvoltage".

> It's in the datasheets and the prime
> reason they glue thermal fuses to them in the first place. When they fail,
> they short and catch on fire.

Among the UL tests is that suppressors fail safely (thermal fuses).

>
> Fancy commercial surge arrestors are potted to avoid the smoke cloud, and
> even offer alarm contacts to let you know when they failed. The "is
> working" LED on consumer powe strips is essentialy the same concept.
>
> A big problem isn't the number of joules making it to and outlet, but how
> stuff is connected in your home. For example, your cable box may have a
> earth better ground than your outlets if they're poorly wired or just old.
> You get the surge or nearyby ligtning strike and now your computer blows
> up. Might be from the huge swing across your devices, even though each
> would have survived the event if they were not connected.

As I wrote in one of my first posts:
"When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to a
set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor." (An
example (pg 31f) shows protection from a surge entering on the cable
service.) If signal wires do not go through the suppressor, the
suppressor can actually cause damage,

It is one of the major points made in the IEEE surge guide (for those
who can read).

>
> There have been other fun posts here about massive destruction at the
> telco wiring at buildings when there's an electrical issue. Two systems at
> different potentials, even for brief periods of time can cause huge
> problems.

Because it is a major cause of damage avoiding different potentials is a
major subject of the IEEE guide.

For science based information on surge protection read the IEEE surge guide
<http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>

>
> There's plenty of videos of people drawing sparks off the service panel
> ground cables to water pipes or ground rods, and that's not during a
> lightning storm, and that's just a few volts.

So what?

>
>>> Now, that "finite lifespan" is merely for expectation of the MOVs to do
>>> their job -- long as the bar itself is still physically sound, it'll
>>> work as an extension cord (etc.) practically forever (albeit without any
>>> "safety features").
>>
>> As I wrote yesterday, a UL listed suppressor is likely to not work as a
>> plug strip if the MOVs fail (IEEE guide pg. 38).
>>
>>>
>>> Even assuming my understanding is wrong (i.e. that the MOVs never
>>> actually degrade), they're less than $20, it's not exactly going to
>>> break the bank to replace them every 3-5 years.
>>>
>>
>> The two suppressors I use are from reputable companies, with high
>> ratings, protected equipment warranties and ports for relevant signal
>> wires. I do not have to worry about whether they will fail.
>>
>>

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<t2e1p6$qju$1@reader1.panix.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=93738&group=sci.electronics.design#93738

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From: prese...@MUNGEpanix.com (Cydrome Leader)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 06:04:22 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <t2e1p6$qju$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <635cf5fa-3044-4cc8-9a45-8f74586cdb44n@googlegroups.com> <slrnt470k8.4gd.dan@djph.net> <wba1K.289848$m1S7.91143@fx36.iad> <slrnt4bee2.4gd.dan@djph.net> <DPu1K.382810$iK66.365398@fx46.iad> <t2cr2e$hgc$1@reader1.panix.com> <i1t2K.222303$41E7.30746@fx37.iad>
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 by: Cydrome Leader - Mon, 4 Apr 2022 06:04 UTC

bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
> On 4/3/2022 1:03 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>>> On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>> Hash: SHA512
>>>>
>>>> bud-- wrote:
>>>>> On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
>>>>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
>>>>>> get burned out, they need replaced).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".
>>>>
>>>> My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet
>>>> bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
>>>> internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.
>>>
>>> Is not what I have read anywhere.
>>>
>>> And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
>>> plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge
>>> rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained
>>> yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is
>>> surprisingly small.
>>
>> MOVs absolutely have a finite life.
>
> As I have written a couple times, published research by the NIST surge
> expert found that with the maximum surge with any reasonable probability
> of occurring on power service wires, the energy absorbed at a plug-in
> suppressor on a branch circuit was 35J. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule
> or less.

I have yet to see any commercial surge supressors with a history of
working well slap any NIST reference on the sell sheet. Nobody cares about
your random NIST paper from 1988.

> The MOV energy rating is for a single event that puts the MOV at its
> defined end of life (but still functional). If the energy hits are much
> smaller, the cumulative energy rating is much higher. For example a MOV
> might have a (single event) rating of 1,000 J. If the individual hits
> are 14 J the cumulative energy rating might be 13,000 J. High ratings
> give a much longer life.
>
> The Belkin suppressor I looked at has a rating of 1045 J.

I'd love to see that thing try to deal with 1045J.

> As I wrote previously, a UL listed suppressor will disconnect the
> protected load if the MOVs fail and are disconnected (or inform you that
> they don't) (IEEE guide pg. 38).

Why are you mixing and matching UL listings, with no numbers or categories
with IEEE guides? This makes no sense.

> And the NIST surge expert has written:
> "in fact, the major cause of [surge protector] failures is a temporary
> overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge." An example of
> overvoltage is crossed distribution and secondary wires. MOVs can handle
> thousands of surge amps for the microseconds duration of a surge but are
> rapidly burned out by much longer lasting "overvoltage".

Whatever this claim is, it sure sounds stupid. I'd love to hear more about
distribution and secondary wires and how to cross them for microseconds,
harmlessly.

>> It's in the datasheets and the prime
>> reason they glue thermal fuses to them in the first place. When they fail,
>> they short and catch on fire.
>
> Among the UL tests is that suppressors fail safely (thermal fuses).

Can you cite the NIST paper or IEEE publications used in this UL test?

>> Fancy commercial surge arrestors are potted to avoid the smoke cloud, and
>> even offer alarm contacts to let you know when they failed. The "is
>> working" LED on consumer powe strips is essentialy the same concept.
>>
>> A big problem isn't the number of joules making it to and outlet, but how
>> stuff is connected in your home. For example, your cable box may have a
>> earth better ground than your outlets if they're poorly wired or just old.
>> You get the surge or nearyby ligtning strike and now your computer blows
>> up. Might be from the huge swing across your devices, even though each
>> would have survived the event if they were not connected.
>
> As I wrote in one of my first posts:
> "When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to a
> set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
> voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor." (An
> example (pg 31f) shows protection from a surge entering on the cable
> service.) If signal wires do not go through the suppressor, the
> suppressor can actually cause damage,
>
> It is one of the major points made in the IEEE surge guide (for those
> who can read).
>
>>
>> There have been other fun posts here about massive destruction at the
>> telco wiring at buildings when there's an electrical issue. Two systems at
>> different potentials, even for brief periods of time can cause huge
>> problems.
>
> Because it is a major cause of damage avoiding different potentials is a
> major subject of the IEEE guide.
>
> For science based information on surge protection read the IEEE surge guide
> <http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>
>
>>
>> There's plenty of videos of people drawing sparks off the service panel
>> ground cables to water pipes or ground rods, and that's not during a
>> lightning storm, and that's just a few volts.
>
> So what?

It sounds like you missed the IEEE and NIST publications on ground loops.
Better head back to the library.

[the rest of the parroted garbage about unspecificed UL tests removed]

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<68L2K.617915$oF2.397902@fx10.iad>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=93767&group=sci.electronics.design#93767

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer02.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx10.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
References: <635cf5fa-3044-4cc8-9a45-8f74586cdb44n@googlegroups.com>
<slrnt470k8.4gd.dan@djph.net> <wba1K.289848$m1S7.91143@fx36.iad>
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From: nul...@void.com (bud--)
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 23:25:54 UTC
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:25:13 -0600
X-Received-Bytes: 8502
 by: bud-- - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 00:25 UTC

On 4/4/2022 12:04 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>> On 4/3/2022 1:03 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>> bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>>>> On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> Hash: SHA512
>>>>>
>>>>> bud-- wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
>>>>>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
>>>>>>> get burned out, they need replaced).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet
>>>>> bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
>>>>> internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.
>>>>
>>>> Is not what I have read anywhere.
>>>>
>>>> And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
>>>> plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge
>>>> rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained
>>>> yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is
>>>> surprisingly small.
>>>
>>> MOVs absolutely have a finite life.
>>
>> As I have written a couple times, published research by the NIST surge
>> expert found that with the maximum surge with any reasonable probability
>> of occurring on power service wires, the energy absorbed at a plug-in
>> suppressor on a branch circuit was 35J. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule
>> or less.
>
> I have yet to see any commercial surge supressors with a history of
> working well slap any NIST reference on the sell sheet. Nobody cares about
> your random NIST paper from 1988.

The NIST surge expert was François Martzloff. I have read at least 40
papers written by, or partly by Martzloff. At least half were published
by the IEEE. You may not have heard of it.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Electrical_and_Electronics_Engineers>
The IEEE surge guide was also published by the IEEE. The IEEE guide
credits Martzloff (pg iv).

Martzloff papers have also been published by the IEC
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Electrotechnical_Commission>
and many others.

I have no idea what the "random NIST paper from 1988" is.

I am interested in reading your published papers.

>
>> The MOV energy rating is for a single event that puts the MOV at its
>> defined end of life (but still functional). If the energy hits are much
>> smaller, the cumulative energy rating is much higher. For example a MOV
>> might have a (single event) rating of 1,000 J. If the individual hits
>> are 14 J the cumulative energy rating might be 13,000 J. High ratings
>> give a much longer life.
>>
>> The Belkin suppressor I looked at has a rating of 1045 J.
>
> I'd love to see that thing try to deal with 1045J.
>
>> As I wrote previously, a UL listed suppressor will disconnect the
>> protected load if the MOVs fail and are disconnected (or inform you that
>> they don't) (IEEE guide pg. 38).
>
> Why are you mixing and matching UL listings, with no numbers or categories
> with IEEE guides? This makes no sense.

With minimal reading ability you would see that the IEEE guide refers to
the UL standard.

And you may not be familiar with referencing different sources (as is
done in footnotes).

The UL standard for surge protection is UL1449, as I have written. I am
sure that will be very helpful to you.

>
>> And the NIST surge expert has written:
>> "in fact, the major cause of [surge protector] failures is a temporary
>> overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge." An example of
>> overvoltage is crossed distribution and secondary wires. MOVs can handle
>> thousands of surge amps for the microseconds duration of a surge but are
>> rapidly burned out by much longer lasting "overvoltage".
>
> Whatever this claim is, it sure sounds stupid. I'd love to hear more about
> distribution and secondary wires and how to cross them for microseconds,
> harmlessly.

With minimal reading ability you would have understood primary and
secondary wires were not crossed for microseconds. That is the whole
point of TOV.

>
>>> It's in the datasheets and the prime
>>> reason they glue thermal fuses to them in the first place. When they fail,
>>> they short and catch on fire.
>>
>> Among the UL tests is that suppressors fail safely (thermal fuses).
>
> Can you cite the NIST paper or IEEE publications used in this UL test?

I have not written about any NIST papers.

UL test procedures do not cite NIST or IEEE publications.

(Not that the question makes any sense anyway.)

>
>>> Fancy commercial surge arrestors are potted to avoid the smoke cloud, and
>>> even offer alarm contacts to let you know when they failed. The "is
>>> working" LED on consumer powe strips is essentialy the same concept.
>>>
>>> A big problem isn't the number of joules making it to and outlet, but how
>>> stuff is connected in your home. For example, your cable box may have a
>>> earth better ground than your outlets if they're poorly wired or just old.
>>> You get the surge or nearyby ligtning strike and now your computer blows
>>> up. Might be from the huge swing across your devices, even though each
>>> would have survived the event if they were not connected.
>>
>> As I wrote in one of my first posts:
>> "When using a plug-in surge suppressor all wires (power and signal) to a
>> set of protected equipment needs to go through the suppressor. The
>> voltage on all wires is clamped to the ground at the suppressor." (An
>> example (pg 31f) shows protection from a surge entering on the cable
>> service.) If signal wires do not go through the suppressor, the
>> suppressor can actually cause damage,
>>
>> It is one of the major points made in the IEEE surge guide (for those
>> who can read).
>>
>>>
>>> There have been other fun posts here about massive destruction at the
>>> telco wiring at buildings when there's an electrical issue. Two systems at
>>> different potentials, even for brief periods of time can cause huge
>>> problems.
>>
>> Because it is a major cause of damage avoiding different potentials is a
>> major subject of the IEEE guide.
>>
>> For science based information on surge protection read the IEEE surge guide
>> <http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>
>>
>>>
>>> There's plenty of videos of people drawing sparks off the service panel
>>> ground cables to water pipes or ground rods, and that's not during a
>>> lightning storm, and that's just a few volts.
>>
>> So what?
>
> It sounds like you missed the IEEE and NIST publications on ground loops.
> Better head back to the library.

A non-answer.
Small currents to earthing electrodes do not cause surges. Surges,
thousands of amps, can cause thousands of volts between an electrical
system "ground" and earth 40 ft. from the earthing electrode.

>
> [the rest of the parroted garbage about unspecificed UL tests removed]

You are skilled at posts saying nothing.

For real science on surge protection read the IEEE surge guide
<http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf>

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<t2kko1$p75$1@reader2.panix.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=93954&group=sci.electronics.design#93954

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From: prese...@MUNGEpanix.com (Cydrome Leader)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2022 18:04:49 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <t2kko1$p75$1@reader2.panix.com>
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 by: Cydrome Leader - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 18:04 UTC

bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
> On 4/4/2022 12:04 AM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>>> On 4/3/2022 1:03 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>>> bud-- <null@void.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 3/31/2022 8:25 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>> Hash: SHA512
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bud-- wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/29/2022 4:04 PM, Dan Purgert wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A UPS, such as from APC. Or one of those surge suppressor bars (but, as
>>>>>>>> you noted, they have a relatively short lifespan -- once the internals
>>>>>>>> get burned out, they need replaced).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have not read that "they have a relatively short lifespan".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding is such that the MOVs used in the cheapo 4- or 6-outlet
>>>>>> bars have a finite lifespan in general terms (even if it's just from
>>>>>> internal heat buildup), which may be further shortened by power surges.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is not what I have read anywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> And not true of suppressors with a UL listing. They are tested as
>>>>> plug-strips. And have at least a specified minimum (also tested) surge
>>>>> rating. And much higher ratings are readily available. And, as explained
>>>>> yesterday, the amount of energy that can make it to a suppressor is
>>>>> surprisingly small.
>>>>
>>>> MOVs absolutely have a finite life.
>>>
>>> As I have written a couple times, published research by the NIST surge
>>> expert found that with the maximum surge with any reasonable probability
>>> of occurring on power service wires, the energy absorbed at a plug-in
>>> suppressor on a branch circuit was 35J. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule
>>> or less.
>>
>> I have yet to see any commercial surge supressors with a history of
>> working well slap any NIST reference on the sell sheet. Nobody cares about
>> your random NIST paper from 1988.
>
> The NIST surge expert was Fran??ois Martzloff. I have read at least 40
> papers written by, or partly by Martzloff. At least half were published
> by the IEEE. You may not have heard of it.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Electrical_and_Electronics_Engineers>
> The IEEE surge guide was also published by the IEEE. The IEEE guide
> credits Martzloff (pg iv).
>
> Martzloff papers have also been published by the IEC
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Electrotechnical_Commission>
> and many others.
>
> I have no idea what the "random NIST paper from 1988" is.
>
> I am interested in reading your published papers.

I don't publish papers, I solve real problems. Some of my sources include
the designer of surge supressors for commercial use, including remote
towers for radio relays. I trust him and his decades of real experience
over martzloff and his recycled book reports. The products he designed are
still in production by emerson electric.
>>> The MOV energy rating is for a single event that puts the MOV at its
>>> defined end of life (but still functional). If the energy hits are much
>>> smaller, the cumulative energy rating is much higher. For example a MOV
>>> might have a (single event) rating of 1,000 J. If the individual hits
>>> are 14 J the cumulative energy rating might be 13,000 J. High ratings
>>> give a much longer life.
>>>
>>> The Belkin suppressor I looked at has a rating of 1045 J.
>>
>> I'd love to see that thing try to deal with 1045J.
>>
>>> As I wrote previously, a UL listed suppressor will disconnect the
>>> protected load if the MOVs fail and are disconnected (or inform you that
>>> they don't) (IEEE guide pg. 38).
>>
>> Why are you mixing and matching UL listings, with no numbers or categories
>> with IEEE guides? This makes no sense.
>
> With minimal reading ability you would see that the IEEE guide refers to
> the UL standard.

So we're supposed to chase after IEEE guide to UL standards which you use
in place of the UL standard itself? I can sort of understand why ground
loops just don't register with you at all.
> And you may not be familiar with referencing different sources (as is
> done in footnotes).
>
> The UL standard for surge protection is UL1449, as I have written. I am
> sure that will be very helpful to you.
>
>>
>>> And the NIST surge expert has written:
>>> "in fact, the major cause of [surge protector] failures is a temporary
>>> overvoltage, rather than an unusually large surge." An example of
>>> overvoltage is crossed distribution and secondary wires. MOVs can handle
>>> thousands of surge amps for the microseconds duration of a surge but are
>>> rapidly burned out by much longer lasting "overvoltage".
>>
>> Whatever this claim is, it sure sounds stupid. I'd love to hear more about
>> distribution and secondary wires and how to cross them for microseconds,
>> harmlessly.
>
> With minimal reading ability you would have understood primary and
> secondary wires were not crossed for microseconds. That is the whole
> point of TOV.

So dollar sure surge arrestors work great, but only in improbable
scenarios?

[garbage trimmed]

Your academic, delusional world of UL stickers and mass produced
publications don't take into account the real world and how things
actually work.

The reality is all a UL sticker on a power strip means is somebody faked
it, or somebody payed a fee. Testing of most products isn't even needed.

Nobody has your back when a dollar store power strip catches on fire.
Atrocious products like christmas tree light can carry a UL tag. It
doesn't make them safe or fault-proof by any measure.

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<467679f4-9b3b-4a9c-9b93-a8d77145f263n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 20:34 UTC

On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> bud-- <nu...@void.com> wrote:

> So dollar sure surge arrestors work great, but only in improbable
> scenarios?

'dollar' isn't the important quality in a surge arrestor. A
burned-out spark plug is an excellent surge arrestor, albeit somewhat
messy, and you can have some of mine for a dime.

> Your academic, delusional world of UL stickers and mass produced
> publications don't take into account the real world and how things
> actually work.

That's just snark; academics aside, UL certification is backed by insurance
companies (the "U" stands for 'Underwriters') who are completely grounded in
reality. Their reality doesn't require, however, that all devices survive lightning
strikes and function for decades.

A product for market will always have some formal requirements for safety, and
it is in a manufacturer's best interest to pay close attention to those, and only those,
requirements. It's safety, not durability, that tops their list of concerns.

That's a good thing.

Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch

<t2np3d$ioh$1@reader1.panix.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=94121&group=sci.electronics.design#94121

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From: prese...@MUNGEpanix.com (Cydrome Leader)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Inline Electric Timer Switch
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 22:37:33 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <t2np3d$ioh$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <635cf5fa-3044-4cc8-9a45-8f74586cdb44n@googlegroups.com> <slrnt470k8.4gd.dan@djph.net> <wba1K.289848$m1S7.91143@fx36.iad> <slrnt4bee2.4gd.dan@djph.net> <DPu1K.382810$iK66.365398@fx46.iad> <t2cr2e$hgc$1@reader1.panix.com> <i1t2K.222303$41E7.30746@fx37.iad> <t2e1p6$qju$1@reader1.panix.com> <68L2K.617915$oF2.397902@fx10.iad> <t2kko1$p75$1@reader2.panix.com> <467679f4-9b3b-4a9c-9b93-a8d77145f263n@googlegroups.com>
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 by: Cydrome Leader - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 22:37 UTC

whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 6, 2022 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-7, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> bud-- <nu...@void.com> wrote:
>
>> So dollar sure surge arrestors work great, but only in improbable
>> scenarios?
>
> 'dollar' isn't the important quality in a surge arrestor. A
> burned-out spark plug is an excellent surge arrestor, albeit somewhat
> messy, and you can have some of mine for a dime.
>
>> Your academic, delusional world of UL stickers and mass produced
>> publications don't take into account the real world and how things
>> actually work.
>
> That's just snark; academics aside, UL certification is backed by insurance
> companies (the "U" stands for 'Underwriters') who are completely grounded in
> reality. Their reality doesn't require, however, that all devices survive lightning
> strikes and function for decades.
>
> A product for market will always have some formal requirements for safety, and
> it is in a manufacturer's best interest to pay close attention to those, and only those,
> requirements. It's safety, not durability, that tops their list of concerns.
>
> That's a good thing.

You are quite delusional if you think safety is of any concern for even
half of consumer products being made.

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