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tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: remote sense supply

SubjectAuthor
* remote sense supplyJohn Larkin
+* Re: remote sense supplyPhil Hobbs
|`* Re: remote sense supplyJohn Larkin
| `- Re: remote sense supplyJohn Larkin
+* Re: remote sense supplyUwe Bonnes
|+* Re: remote sense supplyJohn Larkin
||+* Re: remote sense supplyRich S
|||+- Re: remote sense supplyLasse Langwadt Christensen
|||`* Re: remote sense supplyjlarkin
||| `- Re: remote sense supplywhit3rd
||`* Re: remote sense supplyDimiter_Popoff
|| `* Re: remote sense supplyJohn Larkin
||  +* Re: remote sense supplyDimiter_Popoff
||  |`* Re: remote sense supplyJohn Larkin
||  | `* Re: remote sense supplyDimiter_Popoff
||  |  `* Re: remote sense supplyJoe Gwinn
||  |   `* Re: remote sense supplyDimiter_Popoff
||  |    `* Re: remote sense supplyJoe Gwinn
||  |     `* Re: remote sense supplyDimiter_Popoff
||  |      `* Re: remote sense supplyJoe Gwinn
||  |       `* Re: remote sense supplyDimiter_Popoff
||  |        `* Re: remote sense supplyJoe Gwinn
||  |         `- Re: remote sense supplyDimiter_Popoff
||  `- Re: remote sense supplyClifford Heath
|`* Re: remote sense supplylegg
| `* Re: remote sense supplyUwe Bonnes
|  +- Re: remote sense supplyjlarkin
|  `- Re: remote sense supplylegg
+- Re: remote sense supplylegg
+* Re: remote sense supplyNeutronix Ltd
|`- Re: remote sense supplyjlarkin
`* Re: remote sense supplyCydrome Leader
 `* Re: remote sense supplyJohn Larkin
  +* Re: remote sense supplyLasse Langwadt Christensen
  |+* Re: remote sense supplyJohn Larkin
  ||+- Re: remote sense supplyJoe Gwinn
  ||`- Re: remote sense supplysea moss
  |`* Re: remote sense supplyJan Panteltje
  | +* Re: remote sense supplyjlarkin
  | |`* Re: remote sense supplyJan Panteltje
  | | `* Re: remote sense supplyjlarkin
  | |  +* Re: remote sense supplyTom Gardner
  | |  |`- Re: remote sense supplyjlarkin
  | |  `* Re: remote sense supplyJan Panteltje
  | |   `* Re: remote sense supplyJohn Larkin
  | |    `- Re: remote sense supplyJan Panteltje
  | `- Re: remote sense supplyCydrome Leader
  `* Re: remote sense supplyCydrome Leader
   `* Re: remote sense supplyJohn Larkin
    `- Re: remote sense supplywhit3rd

Pages:12
Re: remote sense supply

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From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2022 10:52:14 -0700
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sun, 3 Apr 2022 17:52 UTC

On 3 Apr 2022 17:42:40 GMT, Uwe Bonnes
<bon@hertz.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:

>legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>
>> In my experience, any microcontroller attached to or running
>> on externally accessible sense line juice will more likely
>> fail on standard single-fault abnormals. They don't like pins
>> being pulled above or below their own supply rails, or vice
>> versa.
>>
>And you think FPGA pins are more robust?

Our policy is to never have semiconductor pins exposed to the outside
world without protections.

Some ICs will clamp limited currents to their own rails with their ESD
diodes, some won't.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

Re: remote sense supply

<bauj4hdffl1mgjphhr1va0s5c23frstmjp@4ax.com>

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From: joegw...@comcast.net (Joe Gwinn)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2022 16:12:26 -0400
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 by: Joe Gwinn - Sun, 3 Apr 2022 20:12 UTC

On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 01:06:24 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
wrote:

>On 4/2/2022 23:50, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 22:15:00 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/2/2022 21:51, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 21:38:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/2/2022 20:47, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 20:33:11 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/2/2022 19:52, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 18:54:50 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/2/2022 1:37, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2022 22:28:41 GMT, Uwe Bonnes
>>>>>>>>>> <bon@hertz.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> We're designing a biggish dual power supply, and the customer wants
>>>>>>>>>>>> remote sense. We'd add a small D9 connector or something for the four
>>>>>>>>>>>> sense inputs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This seems non-trivial. The supply should work normally if the rs pins
>>>>>>>>>>>> are not connected. We could put 50 ohm or somesuch resistors from the
>>>>>>>>>>>> main outputs to the rs pins, and then drive a high-z feedback circuit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If the two supplies are paralleled, the customer would use just two
>>>>>>>>>>>> sense wires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If rs is connected wrong, the supply can go bonkers or we could fry
>>>>>>>>>>>> the 50 ohm resistors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like we need current limiters and maybe diodes and maybe FPGA
>>>>>>>>>>>> logic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why FPGA? Why not some uC?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Every plugin board in this box has an FPGA. We need to do a lot of
>>>>>>>>>> signal processing. The isolated ADCs are ADUM7703 delta-sigmas with a
>>>>>>>>>> 20 MHz bit rate, which need a heap of decimation processing. We'll do
>>>>>>>>>> some 100 Mbit communications with the motherboard too.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The little Trion FPGAs are about $10. We could even run a riscV
>>>>>>>>>> processor inside.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for mentioning these Trion FPGA-s, they look very interesting
>>>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>>> Do you have any impression on their software licensing? I saw they
>>>>>>>>> sell it at $35 but does it turn into yet another subscription
>>>>>>>>> after some time?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll ask my FPGA guy. I get the impression that it's not bad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They look cool. They are simple, with no ADC or high-end serdes or
>>>>>>>> things like that. They do have a dram controller (I think), lvds i/o,
>>>>>>>> schmitts, and a soft core riscV. 1Mbit of sram.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We're about to make a test board that includes the T20F256C4. We plan
>>>>>>>> to measure a lot of stuff: pin-pin delays, Fmax on counters, LVDS
>>>>>>>> common-mode levels, delay-vs-Vcore and temperature, jitter, drive
>>>>>>>> strengths, things like that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We asked their support people about some details of using the LVDS
>>>>>>>> receivers at other levels, and they said "don't do that."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I might make an ADC using an LVDS receiver as a comparator. The
>>>>>>>> minimal ADC would use three fpga pins and one external RC. That could
>>>>>>>> be v-to-f, pwm, delta-sigma, or single-slope. Fun.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We've designed a flash manager with bootstrap and field upgrade and
>>>>>>>> such.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am only after standard functions, and if their lvds will do for
>>>>>>> hdmi video out I'll be happy.
>>>>>>> What I feel nervous about are their design tools, looks like they
>>>>>>> are just $35 for now but how quickly can they become prohibitive
>>>>>>> for someone who does not sell millions of units.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I never understood why FPGA vendors should charge for tools or use
>>>>>> insane licensing stuff. Makes more sense to just give it away, maybe
>>>>>> charge for support.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For many years - >20 - the electronica industry has been closing things
>>>>> down so only "politburo members" can do real development. Probably this
>>>>> is part of the same effort, FPGA vendors are interested in selling more
>>>>> chips but their large customers likely give them contracts against
>>>>> guarantees the tools will not be available to everybody.
>>>>
>>>> I'd bet it's an attempt to lock their customers in forever.
>>>
>>> Could be if it is a one time fee. Not sure what is in at the moment.
>>> But it started a long time ago so it is more likely to be the work
>>> of some 'visionary' to prevent the spread of knowledge which would
>>> cost them zillions. Look at how they closed down all things wifi,
>>> the first - prism or something - was documented etc. until it got
>>> bought out and hidden from there on. Even T10 started selling their
>>> documents many years ago... So far the rfc-s are not hidden, but for
>>> how long. Some Sauron seems to be be lurking in the shadows :-).
>>
>> A common problem.
>>
>>
>>>> A have MS Word 2016. Now MS Updater nags me to convert to Word365,
>>>> which is only by subscription. Strangely, Word 2016 is now developing
>>>> problems.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if the $35 tool one can buy now will work on a PC with
>>>>> no internet connection. Guess I have only one way to know for sure.
>>>>
>>>> Very good question. And companies who want to protect their critical
>>>> computers and networks from ransomware attacks et al may well have an
>>>> air-gapped system.
>>>
>>> I am not concerned about our design critical stuff, it is all under
>>> dps. They got a foot in when xilinx bought the coolrunner some 20 years
>>> ago, we had a logic compiler I had written; the cpld-s we have now
>>> use an old xilinx tool, old enough to work with no internet.
>>
>> dps? Maybe Texas DPS?
>
>No, it is the OS run here, written/built on over the years by me.
>
>Just did a shot of what my screen can look like (usually not as
>cluttered):
>http://tgi-sci.com/misc/dps.gif

Ahh. That looks suspiciously like assembly code. The horror!

>>> Guess I'll try some of these (too?) new fpga-s out, once I have a
>>> working logic as I need it I typically don't need to change it for
>>> many years. They seem new enough to be yet preoccupied with how
>>> to change one time sales into subscription, guess we'll see.
>>> Their fpga-s look really good on paper for what I am after.
>>
>> I'd say that my system of the future is air-gapped, as it's too hard
>> to keep up with the threat of the day, so all Internet-dependent tools
>> are excluded from consideration, and see what happens. You may need
>> to stop talking to the sales droids to convince them that you mean it.
>
>I don't have the muscle to make them change policy so I try - have been
>doing if for nearly 30 years now - to just be independent on software
>written by anyone but me.


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Re: remote sense supply

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From: dp...@tgi-sci.com (Dimiter_Popoff)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 00:07:07 +0300
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 by: Dimiter_Popoff - Sun, 3 Apr 2022 21:07 UTC

On 4/3/2022 23:12, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 01:06:24 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 4/2/2022 23:50, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 22:15:00 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/2/2022 21:51, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 21:38:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/2/2022 20:47, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 20:33:11 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/2/2022 19:52, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 18:54:50 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/2/2022 1:37, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2022 22:28:41 GMT, Uwe Bonnes
>>>>>>>>>>> <bon@hertz.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We're designing a biggish dual power supply, and the customer wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remote sense. We'd add a small D9 connector or something for the four
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense inputs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This seems non-trivial. The supply should work normally if the rs pins
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are not connected. We could put 50 ohm or somesuch resistors from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> main outputs to the rs pins, and then drive a high-z feedback circuit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the two supplies are paralleled, the customer would use just two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense wires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If rs is connected wrong, the supply can go bonkers or we could fry
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 50 ohm resistors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like we need current limiters and maybe diodes and maybe FPGA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> logic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why FPGA? Why not some uC?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Every plugin board in this box has an FPGA. We need to do a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>> signal processing. The isolated ADCs are ADUM7703 delta-sigmas with a
>>>>>>>>>>> 20 MHz bit rate, which need a heap of decimation processing. We'll do
>>>>>>>>>>> some 100 Mbit communications with the motherboard too.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The little Trion FPGAs are about $10. We could even run a riscV
>>>>>>>>>>> processor inside.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for mentioning these Trion FPGA-s, they look very interesting
>>>>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any impression on their software licensing? I saw they
>>>>>>>>>> sell it at $35 but does it turn into yet another subscription
>>>>>>>>>> after some time?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'll ask my FPGA guy. I get the impression that it's not bad.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They look cool. They are simple, with no ADC or high-end serdes or
>>>>>>>>> things like that. They do have a dram controller (I think), lvds i/o,
>>>>>>>>> schmitts, and a soft core riscV. 1Mbit of sram.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We're about to make a test board that includes the T20F256C4. We plan
>>>>>>>>> to measure a lot of stuff: pin-pin delays, Fmax on counters, LVDS
>>>>>>>>> common-mode levels, delay-vs-Vcore and temperature, jitter, drive
>>>>>>>>> strengths, things like that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We asked their support people about some details of using the LVDS
>>>>>>>>> receivers at other levels, and they said "don't do that."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I might make an ADC using an LVDS receiver as a comparator. The
>>>>>>>>> minimal ADC would use three fpga pins and one external RC. That could
>>>>>>>>> be v-to-f, pwm, delta-sigma, or single-slope. Fun.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We've designed a flash manager with bootstrap and field upgrade and
>>>>>>>>> such.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am only after standard functions, and if their lvds will do for
>>>>>>>> hdmi video out I'll be happy.
>>>>>>>> What I feel nervous about are their design tools, looks like they
>>>>>>>> are just $35 for now but how quickly can they become prohibitive
>>>>>>>> for someone who does not sell millions of units.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I never understood why FPGA vendors should charge for tools or use
>>>>>>> insane licensing stuff. Makes more sense to just give it away, maybe
>>>>>>> charge for support.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For many years - >20 - the electronica industry has been closing things
>>>>>> down so only "politburo members" can do real development. Probably this
>>>>>> is part of the same effort, FPGA vendors are interested in selling more
>>>>>> chips but their large customers likely give them contracts against
>>>>>> guarantees the tools will not be available to everybody.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd bet it's an attempt to lock their customers in forever.
>>>>
>>>> Could be if it is a one time fee. Not sure what is in at the moment.
>>>> But it started a long time ago so it is more likely to be the work
>>>> of some 'visionary' to prevent the spread of knowledge which would
>>>> cost them zillions. Look at how they closed down all things wifi,
>>>> the first - prism or something - was documented etc. until it got
>>>> bought out and hidden from there on. Even T10 started selling their
>>>> documents many years ago... So far the rfc-s are not hidden, but for
>>>> how long. Some Sauron seems to be be lurking in the shadows :-).
>>>
>>> A common problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> A have MS Word 2016. Now MS Updater nags me to convert to Word365,
>>>>> which is only by subscription. Strangely, Word 2016 is now developing
>>>>> problems.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if the $35 tool one can buy now will work on a PC with
>>>>>> no internet connection. Guess I have only one way to know for sure.
>>>>>
>>>>> Very good question. And companies who want to protect their critical
>>>>> computers and networks from ransomware attacks et al may well have an
>>>>> air-gapped system.
>>>>
>>>> I am not concerned about our design critical stuff, it is all under
>>>> dps. They got a foot in when xilinx bought the coolrunner some 20 years
>>>> ago, we had a logic compiler I had written; the cpld-s we have now
>>>> use an old xilinx tool, old enough to work with no internet.
>>>
>>> dps? Maybe Texas DPS?
>>
>> No, it is the OS run here, written/built on over the years by me.
>>
>> Just did a shot of what my screen can look like (usually not as
>> cluttered):
>> http://tgi-sci.com/misc/dps.gif
>
> Ahh. That looks suspiciously like assembly code. The horror!


Click here to read the complete article
Re: remote sense supply

<3o4k4hhks06r7717s1etu697gvinm5hurt@4ax.com>

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From: leg...@nospam.magma.ca (legg)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2022 17:35:29 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: legg - Sun, 3 Apr 2022 21:35 UTC

On 3 Apr 2022 17:42:40 GMT, Uwe Bonnes
<bon@hertz.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:

>legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
>
>> In my experience, any microcontroller attached to or running
>> on externally accessible sense line juice will more likely
>> fail on standard single-fault abnormals. They don't like pins
>> being pulled above or below their own supply rails, or vice
>> versa.
>>
>And you think FPGA pins are more robust?

I meant any progammable part.

RL

Re: remote sense supply

<t2ff5c$ii9$1@reader1.panix.com>

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From: prese...@MUNGEpanix.com (Cydrome Leader)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:58:52 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Cydrome Leader - Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:58 UTC

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
> We're designing a biggish dual power supply, and the customer wants
> remote sense. We'd add a small D9 connector or something for the four
> sense inputs.
>
> This seems non-trivial. The supply should work normally if the rs pins
> are not connected. We could put 50 ohm or somesuch resistors from the
> main outputs to the rs pins, and then drive a high-z feedback circuit.
>
> If the two supplies are paralleled, the customer would use just two
> sense wires.
>
> If rs is connected wrong, the supply can go bonkers or we could fry
> the 50 ohm resistors.
>
> Sounds like we need current limiters and maybe diodes and maybe FPGA
> logic.

remote sense is not paralelling. No idea where the FPGA logic is needed.

Got any old Condor or Power-One catalogs laying around?

Re: remote sense supply

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From: jlar...@highland_atwork_technology.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 14:13:18 -0700
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 by: John Larkin - Mon, 4 Apr 2022 21:13 UTC

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:58:52 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
<presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>> We're designing a biggish dual power supply, and the customer wants
>> remote sense. We'd add a small D9 connector or something for the four
>> sense inputs.
>>
>> This seems non-trivial. The supply should work normally if the rs pins
>> are not connected. We could put 50 ohm or somesuch resistors from the
>> main outputs to the rs pins, and then drive a high-z feedback circuit.
>>
>> If the two supplies are paralleled, the customer would use just two
>> sense wires.
>>
>> If rs is connected wrong, the supply can go bonkers or we could fry
>> the 50 ohm resistors.
>>
>> Sounds like we need current limiters and maybe diodes and maybe FPGA
>> logic.
>
>remote sense is not paralelling.

I didn't think it was. But power supplies can be parelleled, in which
case we'd only use one remote sense pair.

>No idea where the FPGA logic is needed.

The FPGA will input from the voltage and current sense delta-sigma
ADCs and generates the gate drives to the isolated forward converter.
It closes the feedback loops and reports the voltage and current to
the system. It will do safety shutdowns too.

We'll do cv, cc, programmed impedance, and programmed coordinated slew
rates. Things like that. It can manage paralleling two supplies too.

>
>Got any old Condor or Power-One catalogs laying around?

No. I was hoping somebody would have some ps schematics with
approaches to remote sense.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

Re: remote sense supply

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Subject: Re: remote sense supply
From: langw...@fonz.dk (Lasse Langwadt Christensen)
Injection-Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 21:51:51 +0000
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 by: Lasse Langwadt Chris - Mon, 4 Apr 2022 21:51 UTC

mandag den 4. april 2022 kl. 23.13.29 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:58:52 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>
> >John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
> >> We're designing a biggish dual power supply, and the customer wants
> >> remote sense. We'd add a small D9 connector or something for the four
> >> sense inputs.
> >>
> >> This seems non-trivial. The supply should work normally if the rs pins
> >> are not connected. We could put 50 ohm or somesuch resistors from the
> >> main outputs to the rs pins, and then drive a high-z feedback circuit.
> >>
> >> If the two supplies are paralleled, the customer would use just two
> >> sense wires.
> >>
> >> If rs is connected wrong, the supply can go bonkers or we could fry
> >> the 50 ohm resistors.
> >>
> >> Sounds like we need current limiters and maybe diodes and maybe FPGA
> >> logic.
> >
> >remote sense is not paralelling.
> I didn't think it was. But power supplies can be parelleled, in which
> case we'd only use one remote sense pair.
> >No idea where the FPGA logic is needed.
> The FPGA will input from the voltage and current sense delta-sigma
> ADCs and generates the gate drives to the isolated forward converter.
> It closes the feedback loops and reports the voltage and current to
> the system. It will do safety shutdowns too.
>
> We'll do cv, cc, programmed impedance, and programmed coordinated slew
> rates. Things like that. It can manage paralleling two supplies too.
> >
> >Got any old Condor or Power-One catalogs laying around?
> No. I was hoping somebody would have some ps schematics with
> approaches to remote sense.

http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf

Re: remote sense supply

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From: jlar...@highland_atwork_technology.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:28:03 -0700
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 by: John Larkin - Mon, 4 Apr 2022 22:28 UTC

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>mandag den 4. april 2022 kl. 23.13.29 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:58:52 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>>
>> >John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>> >> We're designing a biggish dual power supply, and the customer wants
>> >> remote sense. We'd add a small D9 connector or something for the four
>> >> sense inputs.
>> >>
>> >> This seems non-trivial. The supply should work normally if the rs pins
>> >> are not connected. We could put 50 ohm or somesuch resistors from the
>> >> main outputs to the rs pins, and then drive a high-z feedback circuit.
>> >>
>> >> If the two supplies are paralleled, the customer would use just two
>> >> sense wires.
>> >>
>> >> If rs is connected wrong, the supply can go bonkers or we could fry
>> >> the 50 ohm resistors.
>> >>
>> >> Sounds like we need current limiters and maybe diodes and maybe FPGA
>> >> logic.
>> >
>> >remote sense is not paralelling.
>> I didn't think it was. But power supplies can be parelleled, in which
>> case we'd only use one remote sense pair.
>> >No idea where the FPGA logic is needed.
>> The FPGA will input from the voltage and current sense delta-sigma
>> ADCs and generates the gate drives to the isolated forward converter.
>> It closes the feedback loops and reports the voltage and current to
>> the system. It will do safety shutdowns too.
>>
>> We'll do cv, cc, programmed impedance, and programmed coordinated slew
>> rates. Things like that. It can manage paralleling two supplies too.
>> >
>> >Got any old Condor or Power-One catalogs laying around?
>> No. I was hoping somebody would have some ps schematics with
>> approaches to remote sense.
>
>http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf

About all that the text says about remote sense is that it has it.

Do you understand the rs in the schematic, sheet 121? I don't. Seems
like the diffamp gain changes when the rs is connected. That would be
inelegant. Those giant diodes look ugly too.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

Re: remote sense supply

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Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2022 20:55:58 -0400
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 by: Joe Gwinn - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 00:55 UTC

On Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:28:03 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
><langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
>>mandag den 4. april 2022 kl. 23.13.29 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
>>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:58:52 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>> >> We're designing a biggish dual power supply, and the customer wants
>>> >> remote sense. We'd add a small D9 connector or something for the four
>>> >> sense inputs.
>>> >>
>>> >> This seems non-trivial. The supply should work normally if the rs pins
>>> >> are not connected. We could put 50 ohm or somesuch resistors from the
>>> >> main outputs to the rs pins, and then drive a high-z feedback circuit.
>>> >>
>>> >> If the two supplies are paralleled, the customer would use just two
>>> >> sense wires.
>>> >>
>>> >> If rs is connected wrong, the supply can go bonkers or we could fry
>>> >> the 50 ohm resistors.
>>> >>
>>> >> Sounds like we need current limiters and maybe diodes and maybe FPGA
>>> >> logic.
>>> >
>>> >remote sense is not paralelling.
>>> I didn't think it was. But power supplies can be parelleled, in which
>>> case we'd only use one remote sense pair.
>>> >No idea where the FPGA logic is needed.
>>> The FPGA will input from the voltage and current sense delta-sigma
>>> ADCs and generates the gate drives to the isolated forward converter.
>>> It closes the feedback loops and reports the voltage and current to
>>> the system. It will do safety shutdowns too.
>>>
>>> We'll do cv, cc, programmed impedance, and programmed coordinated slew
>>> rates. Things like that. It can manage paralleling two supplies too.
>>> >
>>> >Got any old Condor or Power-One catalogs laying around?
>>> No. I was hoping somebody would have some ps schematics with
>>> approaches to remote sense.
>>
>>http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf
>
>About all that the text says about remote sense is that it has it.
>
>Do you understand the rs in the schematic, sheet 121? I don't. Seems
>like the diffamp gain changes when the rs is connected. That would be
>inelegant. Those giant diodes look ugly too.

The usual place to look for such details was the HP Journal; these are
all online and freely available these days, at the Agilent or Keysight
web sites.

The other classic source was US Patents. Usually, the names of the HP
Journal article had much overlap with the list of patentees. So,
given a patent, one can search the HP Journal.

Joe Gwinn

Re: remote sense supply

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Subject: Re: remote sense supply
From: danluste...@gmail.com (sea moss)
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 by: sea moss - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 01:52 UTC

> >http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf
> About all that the text says about remote sense is that it has it.
>
> Do you understand the rs in the schematic, sheet 121? I don't. Seems
> like the diffamp gain changes when the rs is connected. That would be
> inelegant. Those giant diodes look ugly too.

You could swap out the diff amp for an instrumentation amplifier, so you wouldn't lose any precision. Then the resistors between the outputs and the remote sense pins could be even bigger values and you wouldn't have to worry about them blowing up. There should be some instrumentation amplifiers with 42V common-mode range.

And what are those "RV" components at the output? MOVs?

Re: remote sense supply

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 by: Jan Panteltje - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 06:44 UTC

On a sunny day (Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse
Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
<3227d09d-48df-4f7c-bb2e-c4ac9d71c73cn@googlegroups.com>:

>http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf

page 101:
Interesting big thyristor as over voltage protection across the output.
Maybe John L. also needs one?

Re: remote sense supply

<m5jo4hpvv7s4bn1naroq2f3vvdv1fqc79k@4ax.com>

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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 14:08 UTC

On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 06:44:25 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse
>Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
><3227d09d-48df-4f7c-bb2e-c4ac9d71c73cn@googlegroups.com>:
>
>>http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf
>
>page 101:
>Interesting big thyristor as over voltage protection across the output.
>Maybe John L. also needs one?

Probably not. An isolated switcher can be cut off several less
dramatic ways if the voltage goes too high. It doesn't have the
failure modes of a linear supply. For example, a shorted mosfet
doesn't make the output go up, it makes it zero.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

Re: remote sense supply

<t2hj8k$qo7$1@dont-email.me>

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From: pNaonStp...@yahoo.com (Jan Panteltje)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 14:20:26 GMT
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 by: Jan Panteltje - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 14:20 UTC

On a sunny day (Tue, 05 Apr 2022 07:08:32 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<m5jo4hpvv7s4bn1naroq2f3vvdv1fqc79k@4ax.com>:

>On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 06:44:25 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse
>>Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
>><3227d09d-48df-4f7c-bb2e-c4ac9d71c73cn@googlegroups.com>:
>>
>>>http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf
>>
>>page 101:
>>Interesting big thyristor as over voltage protection across the output.
>>Maybe John L. also needs one?
>
>Probably not. An isolated switcher can be cut off several less
>dramatic ways if the voltage goes too high. It doesn't have the
>failure modes of a linear supply. For example, a shorted mosfet
>doesn't make the output go up, it makes it zero.

True, but I have seen other things go wrong
reference voltage for example.
And if you control it digitally with an FPGA or whatever programmable device
anything can happen.
It is a case of the value or danger of what is connected to it,
in case of a spacecraft if it blows up something essential for survival.

>I yam Popeye

I know :-)

Re: remote sense supply

<k5lo4hhneb5ancs8918fn67h8f8n5rp2m3@4ax.com>

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Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 07:51:00 -0700
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 14:51 UTC

On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 14:20:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Tue, 05 Apr 2022 07:08:32 -0700) it happened
>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
><m5jo4hpvv7s4bn1naroq2f3vvdv1fqc79k@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 06:44:25 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse
>>>Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
>>><3227d09d-48df-4f7c-bb2e-c4ac9d71c73cn@googlegroups.com>:
>>>
>>>>http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf
>>>
>>>page 101:
>>>Interesting big thyristor as over voltage protection across the output.
>>>Maybe John L. also needs one?
>>
>>Probably not. An isolated switcher can be cut off several less
>>dramatic ways if the voltage goes too high. It doesn't have the
>>failure modes of a linear supply. For example, a shorted mosfet
>>doesn't make the output go up, it makes it zero.
>
>True, but I have seen other things go wrong
>reference voltage for example.
>And if you control it digitally with an FPGA or whatever programmable device
>anything can happen.

But we can build in a lot of crosschecks that wouldn't be practical in
an analog supply. A crude redundant output voltage measurement
wouldn't hurt.

FPGAs don't seem to have random logic failures, like a board full of
discretes can. They seem to work or they don't.

>It is a case of the value or danger of what is connected to it,
>in case of a spacecraft if it blows up something essential for survival.

We'll mostly be testing aerospace stuff, which is the only reason we
want to make power supplies. I might design the supply so it can't
possibly make more than 36 volts, which is the danger limit for a lot
of this stuff.

>
>>I yam Popeye
>
>I know :-)

Popeys's statement is important and profound. Everybdy has to figure
out what they are and be content with it.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

Re: remote sense supply

<t2hqgb$l4u$2@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=93810&group=sci.electronics.design#93810

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: spamj...@blueyonder.co.uk (Tom Gardner)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 17:24:43 +0100
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 by: Tom Gardner - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 16:24 UTC

On 05/04/22 15:51, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> Popeys's statement is important and profound. Everybdy has to figure
> out what they are and be content with it.

Yes, provided that isn't used as a justification for
not bothering to improve oneself where improvement
could reasonably be made.

As with a many English laws, I leave it to the "man
on the Clapham omnibus" to define "reasonable".

Re: remote sense supply

<t2hqs1$ssc$1@dont-email.me>

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From: pNaonStp...@yahoo.com (Jan Panteltje)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 16:30:16 GMT
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 by: Jan Panteltje - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 16:30 UTC

On a sunny day (Tue, 05 Apr 2022 07:51:00 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<k5lo4hhneb5ancs8918fn67h8f8n5rp2m3@4ax.com>:

>On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 14:20:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Tue, 05 Apr 2022 07:08:32 -0700) it happened
>>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
>><m5jo4hpvv7s4bn1naroq2f3vvdv1fqc79k@4ax.com>:
>>
>>>On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 06:44:25 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse
>>>>Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
>>>><3227d09d-48df-4f7c-bb2e-c4ac9d71c73cn@googlegroups.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf
>>>>
>>>>page 101:
>>>>Interesting big thyristor as over voltage protection across the output.
>>>>Maybe John L. also needs one?
>>>
>>>Probably not. An isolated switcher can be cut off several less
>>>dramatic ways if the voltage goes too high. It doesn't have the
>>>failure modes of a linear supply. For example, a shorted mosfet
>>>doesn't make the output go up, it makes it zero.
>>
>>True, but I have seen other things go wrong
>>reference voltage for example.
>>And if you control it digitally with an FPGA or whatever programmable device
>>anything can happen.
>
>But we can build in a lot of crosschecks that wouldn't be practical in
>an analog supply. A crude redundant output voltage measurement
>wouldn't hurt.
>
>FPGAs don't seem to have random logic failures, like a board full of
>discretes can. They seem to work or they don't.
>
>>It is a case of the value or danger of what is connected to it,
>>in case of a spacecraft if it blows up something essential for survival.
>
>We'll mostly be testing aerospace stuff, which is the only reason we
>want to make power supplies. I might design the supply so it can't
>possibly make more than 36 volts, which is the danger limit for a lot
>of this stuff.

Digital can be hacked.

Re: remote sense supply

<5oro4h1ui3bq5gilnf48mccgq8vl68qv23@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: remote sense supply
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 16:34 UTC

On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 17:24:43 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>On 05/04/22 15:51, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> Popeys's statement is important and profound. Everybdy has to figure
>> out what they are and be content with it.
>
>Yes, provided that isn't used as a justification for
>not bothering to improve oneself where improvement
>could reasonably be made.

Sure. But a short fat clumsy kid is not going to be a pro basketball
star.

>
>As with a many English laws, I leave it to the "man
>on the Clapham omnibus" to define "reasonable".

Common sense is not common enough, especially among experts.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

Re: remote sense supply

<feuo4hpunk7285maud5i5dr3urma335mgk@4ax.com>

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From: jlar...@highland_atwork_technology.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 10:19:00 -0700
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 by: John Larkin - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 17:19 UTC

On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 16:30:16 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Tue, 05 Apr 2022 07:51:00 -0700) it happened
>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
><k5lo4hhneb5ancs8918fn67h8f8n5rp2m3@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 14:20:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Tue, 05 Apr 2022 07:08:32 -0700) it happened
>>>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
>>><m5jo4hpvv7s4bn1naroq2f3vvdv1fqc79k@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 06:44:25 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>>>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse
>>>>>Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
>>>>><3227d09d-48df-4f7c-bb2e-c4ac9d71c73cn@googlegroups.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>page 101:
>>>>>Interesting big thyristor as over voltage protection across the output.
>>>>>Maybe John L. also needs one?
>>>>
>>>>Probably not. An isolated switcher can be cut off several less
>>>>dramatic ways if the voltage goes too high. It doesn't have the
>>>>failure modes of a linear supply. For example, a shorted mosfet
>>>>doesn't make the output go up, it makes it zero.
>>>
>>>True, but I have seen other things go wrong
>>>reference voltage for example.
>>>And if you control it digitally with an FPGA or whatever programmable device
>>>anything can happen.
>>
>>But we can build in a lot of crosschecks that wouldn't be practical in
>>an analog supply. A crude redundant output voltage measurement
>>wouldn't hurt.
>>
>>FPGAs don't seem to have random logic failures, like a board full of
>>discretes can. They seem to work or they don't.
>>
>>>It is a case of the value or danger of what is connected to it,
>>>in case of a spacecraft if it blows up something essential for survival.
>>
>>We'll mostly be testing aerospace stuff, which is the only reason we
>>want to make power supplies. I might design the supply so it can't
>>possibly make more than 36 volts, which is the danger limit for a lot
>>of this stuff.
>
>
>Digital can be hacked.

An FPGA loaded from a flash chip? Unlikely.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

Re: remote sense supply

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From: prese...@MUNGEpanix.com (Cydrome Leader)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2022 17:38:27 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Cydrome Leader - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 17:38 UTC

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:58:52 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
> <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>
>>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>> We're designing a biggish dual power supply, and the customer wants
>>> remote sense. We'd add a small D9 connector or something for the four
>>> sense inputs.
>>>
>>> This seems non-trivial. The supply should work normally if the rs pins
>>> are not connected. We could put 50 ohm or somesuch resistors from the
>>> main outputs to the rs pins, and then drive a high-z feedback circuit.
>>>
>>> If the two supplies are paralleled, the customer would use just two
>>> sense wires.
>>>
>>> If rs is connected wrong, the supply can go bonkers or we could fry
>>> the 50 ohm resistors.
>>>
>>> Sounds like we need current limiters and maybe diodes and maybe FPGA
>>> logic.
>>
>>remote sense is not paralelling.
>
> I didn't think it was. But power supplies can be parelleled, in which
> case we'd only use one remote sense pair.
>
>>No idea where the FPGA logic is needed.
>
> The FPGA will input from the voltage and current sense delta-sigma
> ADCs and generates the gate drives to the isolated forward converter.
> It closes the feedback loops and reports the voltage and current to
> the system. It will do safety shutdowns too.
>
> We'll do cv, cc, programmed impedance, and programmed coordinated slew
> rates. Things like that. It can manage paralleling two supplies too.
>
>>
>>Got any old Condor or Power-One catalogs laying around?
>
> No. I was hoping somebody would have some ps schematics with
> approaches to remote sense.

Seems like two different things going on here. One is to make the most
complex power supply in the world, and the second is to add some 1970s
linear power supply remote sense terminals. Not sure why both are needed.

Sounds like you need Don Y for this project.

Re: remote sense supply

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From: pNaonStp...@yahoo.com (Jan Panteltje)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 17:48:22 GMT
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 by: Jan Panteltje - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 17:48 UTC

On a sunny day (Tue, 05 Apr 2022 10:19:00 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
<feuo4hpunk7285maud5i5dr3urma335mgk@4ax.com>:

>On Tue, 05 Apr 2022 16:30:16 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>Digital can be hacked.
>
>An FPGA loaded from a flash chip? Unlikely.

Depends, if it has any thing like a net connection
or remote control...

One of the Usenet groups I read is sci.crypt.
Bit quiet lately, but in the past there have been papers about cool
hacks of all sorts,
Google 'hacking FPGA' finds all sorts of opinions,
but for example also this for Xilinx:
https://thehackernews.com/2020/04/fpga-chip-vulnerability.html

Never under-estimate the enemy.

Re: remote sense supply

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From: jlar...@highland_atwork_technology.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 12:01:43 -0700
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 by: John Larkin - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 19:01 UTC

On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 17:38:27 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
<presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 18:58:52 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>> <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>>
>>>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>> We're designing a biggish dual power supply, and the customer wants
>>>> remote sense. We'd add a small D9 connector or something for the four
>>>> sense inputs.
>>>>
>>>> This seems non-trivial. The supply should work normally if the rs pins
>>>> are not connected. We could put 50 ohm or somesuch resistors from the
>>>> main outputs to the rs pins, and then drive a high-z feedback circuit.
>>>>
>>>> If the two supplies are paralleled, the customer would use just two
>>>> sense wires.
>>>>
>>>> If rs is connected wrong, the supply can go bonkers or we could fry
>>>> the 50 ohm resistors.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like we need current limiters and maybe diodes and maybe FPGA
>>>> logic.
>>>
>>>remote sense is not paralelling.
>>
>> I didn't think it was. But power supplies can be parelleled, in which
>> case we'd only use one remote sense pair.
>>
>>>No idea where the FPGA logic is needed.
>>
>> The FPGA will input from the voltage and current sense delta-sigma
>> ADCs and generates the gate drives to the isolated forward converter.
>> It closes the feedback loops and reports the voltage and current to
>> the system. It will do safety shutdowns too.
>>
>> We'll do cv, cc, programmed impedance, and programmed coordinated slew
>> rates. Things like that. It can manage paralleling two supplies too.
>>
>>>
>>>Got any old Condor or Power-One catalogs laying around?
>>
>> No. I was hoping somebody would have some ps schematics with
>> approaches to remote sense.
>
>Seems like two different things going on here. One is to make the most
>complex power supply in the world, and the second is to add some 1970s
>linear power supply remote sense terminals. Not sure why both are needed.
>

The customers want this stuff. Sometimes they run long cables out to a
jet engine or something. It's good to have customers.

Besides, once all the controls are in an FPGA, features are free.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

Re: remote sense supply

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From: joegw...@comcast.net (Joe Gwinn)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2022 17:18:48 -0400
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 by: Joe Gwinn - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 21:18 UTC

On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 00:07:07 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
wrote:

>On 4/3/2022 23:12, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Apr 2022 01:06:24 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/2/2022 23:50, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 22:15:00 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/2/2022 21:51, Joe Gwinn wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 21:38:30 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/2/2022 20:47, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 20:33:11 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 4/2/2022 19:52, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 18:54:50 +0300, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/2/2022 1:37, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1 Apr 2022 22:28:41 GMT, Uwe Bonnes
>>>>>>>>>>>> <bon@hertz.ikp.physik.tu-darmstadt.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We're designing a biggish dual power supply, and the customer wants
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remote sense. We'd add a small D9 connector or something for the four
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense inputs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This seems non-trivial. The supply should work normally if the rs pins
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are not connected. We could put 50 ohm or somesuch resistors from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> main outputs to the rs pins, and then drive a high-z feedback circuit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the two supplies are paralleled, the customer would use just two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense wires.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If rs is connected wrong, the supply can go bonkers or we could fry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 50 ohm resistors.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like we need current limiters and maybe diodes and maybe FPGA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> logic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why FPGA? Why not some uC?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Every plugin board in this box has an FPGA. We need to do a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>> signal processing. The isolated ADCs are ADUM7703 delta-sigmas with a
>>>>>>>>>>>> 20 MHz bit rate, which need a heap of decimation processing. We'll do
>>>>>>>>>>>> some 100 Mbit communications with the motherboard too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The little Trion FPGAs are about $10. We could even run a riscV
>>>>>>>>>>>> processor inside.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for mentioning these Trion FPGA-s, they look very interesting
>>>>>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have any impression on their software licensing? I saw they
>>>>>>>>>>> sell it at $35 but does it turn into yet another subscription
>>>>>>>>>>> after some time?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'll ask my FPGA guy. I get the impression that it's not bad.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They look cool. They are simple, with no ADC or high-end serdes or
>>>>>>>>>> things like that. They do have a dram controller (I think), lvds i/o,
>>>>>>>>>> schmitts, and a soft core riscV. 1Mbit of sram.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We're about to make a test board that includes the T20F256C4. We plan
>>>>>>>>>> to measure a lot of stuff: pin-pin delays, Fmax on counters, LVDS
>>>>>>>>>> common-mode levels, delay-vs-Vcore and temperature, jitter, drive
>>>>>>>>>> strengths, things like that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We asked their support people about some details of using the LVDS
>>>>>>>>>> receivers at other levels, and they said "don't do that."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I might make an ADC using an LVDS receiver as a comparator. The
>>>>>>>>>> minimal ADC would use three fpga pins and one external RC. That could
>>>>>>>>>> be v-to-f, pwm, delta-sigma, or single-slope. Fun.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We've designed a flash manager with bootstrap and field upgrade and
>>>>>>>>>> such.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am only after standard functions, and if their lvds will do for
>>>>>>>>> hdmi video out I'll be happy.
>>>>>>>>> What I feel nervous about are their design tools, looks like they
>>>>>>>>> are just $35 for now but how quickly can they become prohibitive
>>>>>>>>> for someone who does not sell millions of units.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I never understood why FPGA vendors should charge for tools or use
>>>>>>>> insane licensing stuff. Makes more sense to just give it away, maybe
>>>>>>>> charge for support.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For many years - >20 - the electronica industry has been closing things
>>>>>>> down so only "politburo members" can do real development. Probably this
>>>>>>> is part of the same effort, FPGA vendors are interested in selling more
>>>>>>> chips but their large customers likely give them contracts against
>>>>>>> guarantees the tools will not be available to everybody.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd bet it's an attempt to lock their customers in forever.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could be if it is a one time fee. Not sure what is in at the moment.
>>>>> But it started a long time ago so it is more likely to be the work
>>>>> of some 'visionary' to prevent the spread of knowledge which would
>>>>> cost them zillions. Look at how they closed down all things wifi,
>>>>> the first - prism or something - was documented etc. until it got
>>>>> bought out and hidden from there on. Even T10 started selling their
>>>>> documents many years ago... So far the rfc-s are not hidden, but for
>>>>> how long. Some Sauron seems to be be lurking in the shadows :-).
>>>>
>>>> A common problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> A have MS Word 2016. Now MS Updater nags me to convert to Word365,
>>>>>> which is only by subscription. Strangely, Word 2016 is now developing
>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if the $35 tool one can buy now will work on a PC with
>>>>>>> no internet connection. Guess I have only one way to know for sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Very good question. And companies who want to protect their critical
>>>>>> computers and networks from ransomware attacks et al may well have an
>>>>>> air-gapped system.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not concerned about our design critical stuff, it is all under
>>>>> dps. They got a foot in when xilinx bought the coolrunner some 20 years
>>>>> ago, we had a logic compiler I had written; the cpld-s we have now
>>>>> use an old xilinx tool, old enough to work with no internet.
>>>>
>>>> dps? Maybe Texas DPS?
>>>
>>> No, it is the OS run here, written/built on over the years by me.
>>>
>>> Just did a shot of what my screen can look like (usually not as
>>> cluttered):
>>> http://tgi-sci.com/misc/dps.gif
>>
>> Ahh. That looks suspiciously like assembly code. The horror!
>
>It sort of is - but is meant to not be tied to a specific architecture.
>And it lets me do a lot of things I haven't seen done elsewhere (so I
>implemented them into my tool when I needed them).
>Has my life been/is it "the horror"? Probably.
>
>>
>>>>> Guess I'll try some of these (too?) new fpga-s out, once I have a
>>>>> working logic as I need it I typically don't need to change it for
>>>>> many years. They seem new enough to be yet preoccupied with how
>>>>> to change one time sales into subscription, guess we'll see.
>>>>> Their fpga-s look really good on paper for what I am after.
>>>>
>>>> I'd say that my system of the future is air-gapped, as it's too hard
>>>> to keep up with the threat of the day, so all Internet-dependent tools
>>>> are excluded from consideration, and see what happens. You may need
>>>> to stop talking to the sales droids to convince them that you mean it.
>>>
>>> I don't have the muscle to make them change policy so I try - have been
>>> doing if for nearly 30 years now - to just be independent on software
>>> written by anyone but me.
>>
>> There are lots of customers with air-gapped systems. The point of the
>> query is to force the sales droid to tell you how to get that option,
>> or admit (through clenched teeth) that they do not support that
>> option.
>>
>>
>>> The one thing in our products we cannot
>>> reproduce without a wintel PC is a jedec file for a coolrunner CPLD,
>>> xilinx would not disclose its insides (we had a tool for it while
>>> it was Philips). Now I guess I'll settle for using someone else's
>>> fpga tool... Once I have the binary and a supply of silicon - which
>>> in our case it not large at all to be even a lifetime supply - I'll
>>> still have things under control I guess.
>>
>> Hmm. War story: Twenty years ago, I worked with a small company
>> whose chief designer had been a cryptographer at NSA.
>>
>> The FPGA design program (don't recall which one) did not allow one to
>> fix the identity and location of the I/O pins, so every FPGA program
>> spin randomly scrambled the pins, which raised havoc with the PC board
>> layout, and so on. The FPGA design program had closed file formats,
>> so the designer could not manually force things.
>>
>> So the designer's inner cryptographer came out - he cracked the file
>> format, if I recall using differential cryptanalysis methods, and then
>> he could manually edit the files to maintain pin locations from spin
>> to spin.
>>
>> .<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_cryptanalysis>
>
>I had a similar wartime story some 20+ years ago for the
>Philips coolrunner.
>I thught I had all the data to write the logic compiler for it so I
>designed it in. Then discovered they had not given me the multiplexor
>data... good luck doing it without that.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: remote sense supply

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From: dp...@tgi-sci.com (Dimiter_Popoff)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
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 by: Dimiter_Popoff - Tue, 5 Apr 2022 21:41 UTC

On 4/6/2022 0:18, Joe Gwinn wrote:
> ...
>
>> I think I still have that mux decode data online, let me see...
>> I do, <http://tgi-sci.com/misc/ziarev.txt>.
>> And one of the coolrunners I did with my logic compiler using it
>> back then: <http://tgi-sci.com/misc/mb2ata.txt>
>
> Trans Galactic. There's gotta be a warp drive in there somewhere.

Hah, never lose hope :-).
I made up the name back in 1979 I think, this was deep behind the
iron curtain, start talingk of your own company and someone might
have called an ambulance... So the name was perhaps the least
fictional part of the endeavour, was more a smile than anything
else.
Once it was possible to register a company I got back (had "defected"
to W. Germany) and late in 1992 did register... under the same name.
Had grown used to it and well, who said I am not the most stubborn
person on Earth :).

======================================================
Dimiter Popoff, TGI http://www.tgi-sci.com
======================================================
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/

Re: remote sense supply

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Subject: Re: remote sense supply
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 by: whit3rd - Wed, 6 Apr 2022 02:10 UTC

On Tuesday, April 5, 2022 at 12:01:54 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 17:38:27 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

> >Seems like two different things going on here. One is to make the most
> >complex power supply in the world, and the second is to add some 1970s
> >linear power supply remote sense terminals. Not sure why both are needed.

> The customers want this stuff. Sometimes they run long cables out to a
> jet engine or something. It's good to have customers.

Sometime between the 70s and today, POL regulation became the new normal.
For anything on a long cord use sense lines too, but that
needn't be the only level at which regulation is implemented.

Re: remote sense supply

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From: prese...@MUNGEpanix.com (Cydrome Leader)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: remote sense supply
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2022 23:05:40 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Cydrome Leader - Thu, 7 Apr 2022 23:05 UTC

Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On a sunny day (Mon, 4 Apr 2022 14:51:51 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Lasse
> Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
> <3227d09d-48df-4f7c-bb2e-c4ac9d71c73cn@googlegroups.com>:
>
>>http://ridl.cfd.rit.edu/products/manuals/Agilent/power%20supplies/CD1/Service/E3632ser.pdf
>
> page 101:
> Interesting big thyristor as over voltage protection across the output.
> Maybe John L. also needs one?

Could use fuzzy-logic and a DSP to fire off the crowbar circuit.

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