Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

$8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.

On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in
<5e7e0c8b-f242-4373-bcab-0e347e7056a7n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
>> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
>
>$8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.

They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
And some Xray stuff cannot be that hard, cost is mostly profit..

With ever more sanctions US is forcing other countries to make their own stuff, share their innovations.
Take for example ARM, Russia could under these circumstances just say 'we no longer recognize your patents' HINT!!
and build their own chips based on the ARM architecture.
In the same way as the US robs Russia these days of about everything they can.
Big US, very small place compared to the rest on my globe.

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
> <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
> >> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
> >
> >$8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
> They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
> Good chance they have all the drawings etc.

According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation technologies. Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.

On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in
<7111b360-f332-4548-a43e-8b6e3e3e07b7n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
>>
><edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
>> <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
>> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
>> >> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
>>
>>
>> >$8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more.
>ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
>> They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
>> Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
>
>According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation technologies.
> Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
>can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild
>a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.

Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale.
After the anti Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their
own chips on a big scale.

Then all that is left is N Korea taking control of S Korea..

Not sure there will be any 'tronics working after the WW3 nuke exchanges
but old tube radios may survive if the glass does not break.

When archaeologists dig up those cellphones they wonder
'how did they ever make those small chips in the 20th century?'

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:21:46 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
> <7111b360-f332-4548...@googlegroups.com>:
> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
> >>
> ><edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
> >> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> >> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
> >> >> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
> >>
> >>
> >> >$8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more.
> >ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
> >> They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
> >> Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
> >
> >According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation technologies.
> > Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
> >can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild
> >a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.
> Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
> China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale.
> After the anti Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their
> own chips on a big scale.

Yes, after hiring group of TSMC engineers (don't think many of them left). SMIC manages to make some 65nm chips, good enough for cheap auto, but not for advanced Su-4x (or whatever number Russian have). By the way, Russia can also make 65nm chip, likely imported technologies from China.

On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 06:43:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in
<183796e4-4352-4abc-b3e1-85a0f73f52f9n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:21:46 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
>>
><edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
>> <7111b360-f332-4548...@googlegroups.com>:
>> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
>>
>>>
>> ><edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >> <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
>> >> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >> >> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
>> >> >> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
>>
>>>
>> >>
>> >> >$8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot
>more.
>> >ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
>> >> They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
>> >> Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
>> >
>> >According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation
>technologies.
>> > Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
>> >can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild
>>
>>a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.
>>
>Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
>> China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale.
>> After the anti Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their
>> own chips on a big scale.
>
>Yes, after hiring group of TSMC engineers (don't think many of them left).
>SMIC manages to make some 65nm chips, good enough for cheap auto, but not for
>advanced Su-4x (or whatever number Russian have).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-34
2 engines, poor F35

>By the way, Russia can
>also make 65nm chip, likely imported technologies from China.

Do not underestimate Russia
Seen it way ahead in some things at times.

On Fri, 08 Apr 2022 10:14:07 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech

$8M is about a tenth of a percent of what ASML and Gigaphoton invested
in EUV. Looks like ASML won.

Nobody needs xrays to get 28 nm features. DUV laser light is fine, and
a heap easier to make.

People played with nm-range synchrotrons and plasma sources ages ago,
but the power was too low for production. So far, only tin droplets
work.

I doubt that the russkies have the resources to make nm ic's.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
>> <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
>> <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
>> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
>> >> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
>> >
>> >$8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
>> They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
>> Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
>
>According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation technologies. Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.

I wonder what they mean by "maskless lithographic machine". The only
one I know of is direct e-beam, which is used to make masks but is too
slow for ic production.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

On Fri, 08 Apr 2022 14:35:47 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 06:43:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
><edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in
><183796e4-4352-4abc-b3e1-85a0f73f52f9n@googlegroups.com>:
>
>>On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:21:46 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
>>>
>><edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> <7111b360-f332-4548...@googlegroups.com>:
>>> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> >> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
>>>
>>>>
>>> ><edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> >> <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
>>> >> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> >> >> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
>>> >> >> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
>>>
>>>>
>>> >>
>>> >> >$8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot
>>more.
>>> >ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
>>> >> They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
>>> >> Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
>>> >
>>> >According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation
>>technologies.
>>> > Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
>>> >can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild
>>>
>>>a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.
>>>
>>Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
>>> China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale.
>>> After the anti Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their
>>> own chips on a big scale.
>>
>>Yes, after hiring group of TSMC engineers (don't think many of them left).
>>SMIC manages to make some 65nm chips, good enough for cheap auto, but not for
>>advanced Su-4x (or whatever number Russian have).
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-34
> 2 engines, poor F35
>
>

Manned jet fighters with two engines and armored cockpits are
expensive relics of the glorious dogfighting divebombing past. A cheap
smart missile or a pilotless plane will take one out. They are
antiques, like battleships and tanks.

The russians are losing planes and helicopters to shoulder-fired
weapons because they fly low to drop dumb bombs visually. They are
trying to fight WWII again.

>>By the way, Russia can
>>also make 65nm chip, likely imported technologies from China.
>
>Do not underestimate Russia
>Seen it way ahead in some things at times.

Barbarism, mostly. With a great amount of luck, the Ukraine fiasco
will shake things up and pull russia into the modern civilized world;
sadly unlikely.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
> <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in
> <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373-bcab-0e347e7056a7n@googlegroups.com>:
>
>> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
>>> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
>>
>> $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
>
> They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
> Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
> And some Xray stuff cannot be that hard, cost is mostly profit..
>
> With ever more sanctions US is forcing other countries to make their own stuff, share their innovations.
> Take for example ARM, Russia could under these circumstances just say 'we no longer recognize your patents' HINT!!
> and build their own chips based on the ARM architecture.
> In the same way as the US robs Russia these days of about everything they can.
> Big US, very small place compared to the rest on my globe.
>

The issues in XUV are (1) photoresist, and (2) brightness, i.e. wafers
per hour. The issues in sub-32-nm litho are many--besides being
incredibly expensive and precise beasts, wafer scanners have a zillion
simultaneous measurements and adjustments of image quality running
continuously.

Nobody is going to be making the equivalent of a late-model ASML or
Nikon scanner from a standing start in a year or two.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On a sunny day (Fri, 08 Apr 2022 08:00:12 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<fui05h504otn75fsoi4esk9vknsq30uabm@4ax.com>:

>On Fri, 08 Apr 2022 14:35:47 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 06:43:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
>><edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in
>><183796e4-4352-4abc-b3e1-85a0f73f52f9n@googlegroups.com>:
>>
>>>On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 6:21:46 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 05:34:30 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
>>>>
>>><edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> <7111b360-f332-4548...@googlegroups.com>:
>>>> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 5:17:16 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> >> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ><edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
>>>> >> <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373...@googlegroups.com>:
>>>> >> >On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> >> >> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
>>>> >> >> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> >$8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot
>>>more.
>>>> >ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
>>>> >> They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
>>>> >> Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
>>>> >
>>>> >According to the article, Russian scientists contribute to some radiation
>>>technologies.
>>>> > Having technologies is not the same as production. Even if they
>>>> >can build the perfect machines, without costly clean rooms, they mght yeild
>>>>
>>>>a few chips for $8.5m. Far cheap to smuggle a few chips and call it home-grown.
>>>>
>>>Oh, and there is the relation US with China.
>>>> China has the ability to make things in a short time on a large scale.
>>>> After the anti Huawei plot by the US China will love to make their
>>>> own chips on a big scale.
>>>
>>>Yes, after hiring group of TSMC engineers (don't think many of them left).
>>>SMIC manages to make some 65nm chips, good enough for cheap auto, but not for
>>>advanced Su-4x (or whatever number Russian have).
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-34
>> 2 engines, poor F35
>>
>>
>
>Manned jet fighters with two engines and armored cockpits are
>expensive relics of the glorious dogfighting divebombing past. A cheap
>smart missile or a pilotless plane will take one out. They are
>antiques, like battleships and tanks.

Well, that F35 was making its VERY NOISY turn just above my head today,
really low, any sound-seeking missile could have downed it.
The thing is a joke really, even visual with a webcam I can do that in a few days coding,
But 'stealth sells' like snake oil.

>The russians are losing planes and helicopters to shoulder-fired
>weapons because they fly low to drop dumb bombs visually. They are
>trying to fight WWII again.
>
>>>By the way, Russia can
>>>also make 65nm chip, likely imported technologies from China.
>>
>>Do not underestimate Russia
>>Seen it way ahead in some things at times.
>
>Barbarism, mostly. With a great amount of luck, the Ukraine fiasco
>will shake things up and pull russia into the modern civilized world;
>sadly unlikely.

I remember the small Rigonda portable all transistor TVs in the seventies..
https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/kauno_rigonda_m.html
nice job.

US is stuffing that idiot CIA slave shitzensky with ever more weapons so they can sell more weapons as their mission in Afghanistan has ended
same Bil Clignon also arisen from daemon-crates did, war making far from your bed in Europe.
be lucky I am not Putin, preemptive strike has been in my mind.
but maybe I would have turned it around, occupy Donbas etc and make an ultimatum:
One shot at it and I nuke Kiev.
Game over,
Or MAD

Never in history a new weapon has not be used, US hit Japan with nukes twice
So you can wait for the next one
'Build back better' will be 'build back bitter' if anyone left to build or be drafted at all.
US NEEDS a lesson.

>I yam what I yam

Jamming is not good.

On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 12:41:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Fri, 8 Apr 2022 04:28:48 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ed Lee
>> <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in
>> <5e7e0c8b-f242-4373-bcab-0e347e7056a7n@googlegroups.com>:
>>
>>> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 3:15:08 AM UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
>>>> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
>>>
>>> $8.5m? Some more oligarch lunch money? China couldn't do it for a lot more. ASML machines/clean rooms are in billions.
>>
>> They seemed to have worked with ASML in the past.
>> Good chance they have all the drawings etc.
>> And some Xray stuff cannot be that hard, cost is mostly profit..
>>
>> With ever more sanctions US is forcing other countries to make their own stuff, share their innovations.
>> Take for example ARM, Russia could under these circumstances just say 'we no longer recognize your patents' HINT!!
>> and build their own chips based on the ARM architecture.
>> In the same way as the US robs Russia these days of about everything they can.
>> Big US, very small place compared to the rest on my globe.
>>
>
>The issues in XUV are (1) photoresist, and (2) brightness, i.e. wafers
>per hour. The issues in sub-32-nm litho are many--besides being
>incredibly expensive and precise beasts, wafer scanners have a zillion
>simultaneous measurements and adjustments of image quality running
>continuously.
>
>Nobody is going to be making the equivalent of a late-model ASML or
>Nikon scanner from a standing start in a year or two.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
(formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.

And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
tin droplets.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

[...]

> What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
> (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
> continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.
>
> And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
> tin droplets.

Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving
weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving again.
Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.

The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.

Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to Time-Nuts
domain:

https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/

--
MRM

On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 20:31:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
wrote:

>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
>> (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
>> continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.
>>
>> And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
>> tin droplets.
>
>Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving
>weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving again.
>Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.
>
>The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.
>
>Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to Time-Nuts
>domain:
>
>https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/

The lens of an EUV system looks like a diesel engine. Nothing refracts
13 nm light so the lens is a mess of shaped grazing-incidence metal
things with movers and benders. I think Zeiss makes it.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 20:31:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
> wrote:
>
>>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>> What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
>>> (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
>>> continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.
>>>
>>> And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
>>> tin droplets.
>>
>>Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving
>>weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving
>>again. Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.
>>
>>The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.
>>
>>Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to
>>Time-Nuts domain:
>>
>>https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/
>
> The lens of an EUV system looks like a diesel engine. Nothing refracts
> 13 nm light so the lens is a mess of shaped grazing-incidence metal
> things with movers and benders. I think Zeiss makes it.

Apparently the beam is focused and directed by mirrors

How Carl Zeiss Crafts Optics for a $150 Million EUV Machine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__HbVlnICc

The next level is 1nm. I wonder if they use the same method.

1nm chip manufacturing factory! TSMC has once again set a world first!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBqTefFHCio

--
MRM

On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 4:15:55 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 20:31:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>[...]
> >>
> >>> What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
> >>> (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
> >>> continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.
> >>>
> >>> And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
> >>> tin droplets.
> >>
> >>Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving
> >>weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving
> >>again. Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.
> >>
> >>The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.
> >>
> >>Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to
> >>Time-Nuts domain:
> >>
> >>https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/
> >
> > The lens of an EUV system looks like a diesel engine. Nothing refracts
> > 13 nm light so the lens is a mess of shaped grazing-incidence metal
> > things with movers and benders. I think Zeiss makes it.
> Apparently the beam is focused and directed by mirrors
>
> How Carl Zeiss Crafts Optics for a $150 Million EUV Machine
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__HbVlnICc
>
> The next level is 1nm. I wonder if they use the same method.
>
> 1nm chip manufacturing factory! TSMC has once again set a world first!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBqTefFHCio

Someone commented:
"This is a totally fabricated story. TSMC has never announced anything about the 1 nm node."

I agree. 3nm is more likely.

On 4/8/22 7:33 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 4:15:55 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
>> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 20:31:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>> What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
>>>>> (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
>>>>> continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.
>>>>>
>>>>> And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
>>>>> tin droplets.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving
>>>> weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving
>>>> again. Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.
>>>>
>>>> The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.
>>>>
>>>> Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to
>>>> Time-Nuts domain:
>>>>
>>>> https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/
>>>
>>> The lens of an EUV system looks like a diesel engine. Nothing refracts
>>> 13 nm light so the lens is a mess of shaped grazing-incidence metal
>>> things with movers and benders. I think Zeiss makes it.
>> Apparently the beam is focused and directed by mirrors
>>
>> How Carl Zeiss Crafts Optics for a $150 Million EUV Machine
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__HbVlnICc
>>
>> The next level is 1nm. I wonder if they use the same method.
>>
>> 1nm chip manufacturing factory! TSMC has once again set a world first!
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBqTefFHCio
>
> Someone commented:
> "This is a totally fabricated story. TSMC has never announced anything about the 1 nm node."
>
> I agree. 3nm is more likely.
>

Too bad. It'll be great when we reach 0 nm--infinite computing power!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
https://hobbs-eo.com

On Sat, 9 Apr 2022 13:55:57 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>On 4/8/22 7:33 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
>> On Friday, April 8, 2022 at 4:15:55 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
>>> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 20:31:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spa...@not.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>> What stuns me is that the various parts of a modern wafer scanner
>>>>>> (formerly called a stepper) like mask, lens, and wafer, are in
>>>>>> continuous motion during exposure. To sub-nm precision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And euv is not even coherent light, just an emission line from blasted
>>>>>> tin droplets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks. I often wondered how they could start and stop a massive moving
>>>>> weight, then wait for the vibrations to cease, expose and start moving
>>>>> again. Repeat every 5nm. That is not going to work.
>>>>>
>>>>> The solution is don't stop. Why didn't I think of that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now you need femtosecond accuracy in the clocks. That brings it to
>>>>> Time-Nuts domain:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts_lists.febo.com/
>>>>
>>>> The lens of an EUV system looks like a diesel engine. Nothing refracts
>>>> 13 nm light so the lens is a mess of shaped grazing-incidence metal
>>>> things with movers and benders. I think Zeiss makes it.
>>> Apparently the beam is focused and directed by mirrors
>>>
>>> How Carl Zeiss Crafts Optics for a $150 Million EUV Machine
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V__HbVlnICc
>>>
>>> The next level is 1nm. I wonder if they use the same method.
>>>
>>> 1nm chip manufacturing factory! TSMC has once again set a world first!
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBqTefFHCio
>>
>> Someone commented:
>> "This is a totally fabricated story. TSMC has never announced anything about the 1 nm node."
>>
>> I agree. 3nm is more likely.
>>
>
>Too bad. It'll be great when we reach 0 nm--infinite computing power!
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

That would improve Spice some.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

On Fri, 08 Apr 2022 07:44:36 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

>On Fri, 08 Apr 2022 10:14:07 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Russia Invests in Home Grown X-Ray Lithography Tech
>> https://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-invests-in-home-grown-x-ray-lithography-tech
>
>$8M is about a tenth of a percent of what ASML and Gigaphoton invested
>in EUV. Looks like ASML won.
>
>Nobody needs xrays to get 28 nm features. DUV laser light is fine, and
>a heap easier to make.
>
>People played with nm-range synchrotrons and plasma sources ages ago,
>but the power was too low for production. So far, only tin droplets
>work.
>
>I doubt that the russkies have the resources to make nm ic's.

Mostly true. As Ed Lee said before, 65 nm is about it so far anyway.

Why Russia Can’t Replace TSMC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_4R4X7AWtU

boB