Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.

Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?

I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -

--
Rich

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>
> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>
> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -

For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.

RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>
> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>
> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>
> --
> Rich

electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.

onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >
> > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> >
> > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.

And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term

On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>
>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>
>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>
>> --
>> Rich
>
> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.

Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
for niche applications e.g.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>

Basically a city bus on rails.

The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
service design it seems:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>

When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
locomotives were pretty cool-looking:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > >
> > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > >
> > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term

I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.

torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > >
> > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > >
> > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.

trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 3:44:19 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...

Going uphill, some trucks have trouble keeping up with 55. Distributed motors might help. Also better handling going down hill.

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 3:44:19 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> > > onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> > > > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> > > > > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > > > > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > > > > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> > > > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> > > And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> > I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...

And yes, i think we need at last 500kWhr or 7500 lbs. Assuming 1 mi/kWhr and 15 lbs per kWhr.

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD
<r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.

When they are not in line to get to a charging station.

>The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.

Some people enjoy alternating between max accel and max decel.

--

I yam what I yam - Popeye

bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
> On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>
>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>
>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rich
>>
>> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
>> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
>> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
>> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
>> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
>
> Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
> for niche applications e.g.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>
>
> Basically a city bus on rails.
>
> The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
> service design it seems:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>

What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in Ireland about 15 years ago.
They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in Korea. For the intended
use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The north american train
standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so the entire concept of a
fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially passenger trains have to survive
a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, heaviest railcars. They will
obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia.

> When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
> locomotives were pretty cool-looking:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>

Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way they made large motors
back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors with long skinny rotors at
all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key?

On 4/13/2022 8:57 PM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT), RichD
> <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>
> When they are not in line to get to a charging station.
>
>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>
> Some people enjoy alternating between max accel and max decel.
>
>
>

Can't recall ever lining up for one. Mostly around here they're not used
very much, not that there's a shortage of EVs but most people charge at
home.

Businesses and public parking lots and state parks etc. often have them
but don't tend to be able to figure out how to set the pricing on them
or particularly care to they tend to be set at like $0 or 50 cents a
kWh, depending, totally divorced from the price of gas or electricity
for that matter.

I think they tend to install them because they get a tax credit or
legislation mandates it in the case of public facilities but nobody
really understands the tech once it's installed or knows how to make any
money off it or cares to figure out how, only Tesla's network seems to
have accomplished that in a meaningful way.

On 14/4/22 8:43 am, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
>>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
>> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
>
> trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
>

Someone should tell <https://www.januselectric.com.au/>

<https://bigrigs.com.au/index.php/2021/04/26/sydney-to-brisbane-for-525-in-electric-converted-prime-mover/>

Granted it's a limited roll-out, but you have to start somewhere.
They can convert an existing prime mover in under a week.

CH

RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:7abd9443-de36-42ca-8e8a-1eb0430058b5n@googlegroups.com:

> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>
> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight
> calculation?
>
> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>
> --
> Rich
>

Just wait until battery tech gets better.
You'll see 0 to 60 times of less than 2 seconds. Except now we are
heading into the "no longer connected to the pavement" area.

They will need an optical sensor that looks at the road and at the
wheel spin and keeps the car from breaking the tires loose at max
acceleration. Need a big 100 foot long plate of hot rubber ensconsed
dragway surface too.

Has anyone fashioned a Tesla motor powered dragster yet? Carbon
fiber.

Remember the first corbon comp hulls and Kevlar sails in the
America's Cup Race? It was also a ground breaking shift.

Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote in
news:a42b2143-d5b6-4eec-a2a1-da348c1ee3aen@googlegroups.com:

> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>
>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight
>> calculation?
>>
>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>
> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors.
> For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per
> wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
>
>

For one thing you are being presumptuous... again. Not very
bright.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjhGSy5pCJA>

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 8:34:47 PM UTC-7, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:a42b2143-d5b6-4eec...@googlegroups.com:
> > On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> >> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> >> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >>
> >> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> >> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight
> >> calculation?
> >>
> >> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> >
> > For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors.
> > For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per
> > wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> >
> >
> For one thing you are being presumptuous... again. Not very
> bright.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjhGSy5pCJA>

If there is a will, there is a way. Well, but that's not it. The point of multiple motors is to be close to the wheels, without energy lost in transmission.

On 4/13/2022 3:52 PM, RichD wrote:
> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.

Biggest engine is always better than anything there's no replacement for
displacement.

> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>
> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -

NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT VRRRRRROOMM BRRRRRRR

> --
> Rich

torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 03.16.52 UTC+2 skrev Clifford Heath:
> On 14/4/22 8:43 am, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 00.38.16 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> >> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 2:52:18 PM UTC-7, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> >>> onsdag den 13. april 2022 kl. 23.02.08 UTC+2 skrev Ed Lee:
> >>>> On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 12:52:45 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
> >>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> >>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> >>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> >>>> For one thing, it's easier to install and control multiple motors. For maximum performance, you can put one (or more) motor per wheel, which is hard to do with ICE.
> >>> And electric motors can usually handle quite a lot of extra power short term
> >> I am thinking in terms of trucking. Perhaps 18 motors for 18 wheelers. Smaller distributed motors might work better for heavy cargo.
> >
> > trucks are not fast, and most of the cargo is going to be batteries ...
> >
> Someone should tell <https://www.januselectric.com.au/>
>
> <https://bigrigs.com.au/index.php/2021/04/26/sydney-to-brisbane-for-525-in-electric-converted-prime-mover/>
>
> Granted it's a limited roll-out, but you have to start somewhere.
> They can convert an existing prime mover in under a week.

why not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Corporation

torsdag den 14. april 2022 kl. 05.26.39 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:7abd9443-de36-42ca...@googlegroups.com:
> > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >
> > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight
> > calculation?
> >
> > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> >
> > --
> > Rich
> >
> Just wait until battery tech gets better.
> You'll see 0 to 60 times of less than 2 seconds. Except now we are
> heading into the "no longer connected to the pavement" area.
>
> They will need an optical sensor that looks at the road and at the
> wheel spin and keeps the car from breaking the tires loose at max
> acceleration. Need a big 100 foot long plate of hot rubber ensconsed
> dragway surface too.
>
> Has anyone fashioned a Tesla motor powered dragster yet? Carbon
> fiber.

sure they make electric dragsters, https://youtu.be/9bxwQeKhYXQ?t=111

still twice the time and half the speed of ICE dragster records from nearly 40 years ago

On 4/13/2022 9:15 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>> On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>> RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>>
>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>>
>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Rich
>>>
>>> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
>>> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
>>> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
>>> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
>>> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
>>
>> Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
>> for niche applications e.g.
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>
>>
>> Basically a city bus on rails.
>>
>> The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
>> service design it seems:
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>
>
> What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in Ireland about 15 years ago.
> They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in Korea. For the intended
> use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The north american train
> standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so the entire concept of a
> fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially passenger trains have to survive
> a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, heaviest railcars. They will
> obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia.

The FRA imposed some big-time regulation on passenger rail vehicle
strength after WW2, yeah. I think those are _maybe_ getting finally
relaxed a bit as of the past couple years? Not sure with respect to
diesel rail cars on freight lines maybe I'm thinking of something else.

It's too bad as light weight DRCs that could run alongside freight
equipment would open up possibility of service on under-served routes
like e.g. Worcester MA -> Providence, RI and Boston -> Nashua, NH (just
as local examples I know of) where there's some demand but hard to make
the numbers work either as a public service or commercial venture with
heavy rail.

>> When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
>> locomotives were pretty cool-looking:
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>
>
> Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way they made large motors
> back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors with long skinny rotors at
> all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key?

Maybe, there were some DC motors that fit between the wheels then. The
shafts on those in the pic are huge though, I think at the time around
the turn of the century engineers were very conservative with this new
technology and their main concern was ensuring they had enough torque
hence the giant shafts. But there were many improvements in insulation,
core material, bearings etc. from 1910-30 and the AC motor size
decreased rapidly

On 4/14/2022 9:36 AM, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/13/2022 9:15 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>> bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
>>> On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>>> RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
>>>>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
>>>>> that this would be the case?  Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Rich
>>>>
>>>> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why
>>>> train
>>>> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
>>>> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast,
>>>> there's
>>>> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
>>>> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
>>>
>>> Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
>>> for niche applications e.g.
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>
>>>
>>> Basically a city bus on rails.
>>>
>>> The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
>>> service design it seems:
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>
>>
>> What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in
>> Ireland about 15 years ago.
>> They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in
>> Korea. For the intended
>> use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The
>> north american train
>> standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so
>> the entire concept of a
>> fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially
>> passenger trains have to survive
>> a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest,
>> heaviest railcars. They will
>> obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia.
>
> The FRA imposed some big-time regulation on passenger rail vehicle
> strength after WW2, yeah. I think those are _maybe_ getting finally
> relaxed a bit as of the past couple years? Not sure with respect to
> diesel rail cars on freight lines maybe I'm thinking of something else.
>
> It's too bad as light weight DRCs that could run alongside freight
> equipment would open up possibility of service on under-served routes
> like e.g. Worcester MA -> Providence, RI and Boston -> Nashua, NH (just
> as local examples I know of) where there's some demand but hard to make
> the numbers work either as a public service or commercial venture with
> heavy rail.
>
>
>>> When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
>>> locomotives were pretty cool-looking:
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>
>>>
>>
>> Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way
>> they made large motors
>> back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors
>> with long skinny rotors at
>> all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key?
>
> Maybe, there were some DC motors that fit between the wheels then. The
> shafts on those in the pic are huge though, I think at the time around
> the turn of the century engineers were very conservative with this new
> technology and their main concern was ensuring they had enough torque
> hence the giant shafts. But there were many improvements in insulation,
> core material, bearings etc. from 1910-30 and the AC motor size
> decreased rapidly

Er, DC motor size rather the DD1 was DC-powered. Both AC and DC motors
decreased in size over that time though for similar reasons I think

On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 5:11:45 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >
> > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> >
> > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> >
> > --
> > Rich
> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.

Locomotives don't give a durn about "pickup speed fast". The generator/traction motor is all about avoiding the complication of a gearbox and clutch which is harder to do at such power levels with good reliability. If you've ever seen a locomotive or locomotives pull a mile long freight train from a dead stop, you would realize "fast" doesn't enter into the equation and that a clutch would be toast very quickly. Even a hydraulic clutch would need to be very large and dissipate a lot of heat.

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Rick C.

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On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 6:05:25 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> > RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> >> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >>
> >> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> >> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> >>
> >> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> >>
> >> --
> >> Rich
> >
> > electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
> > locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
> > generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
> > nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
> > there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
> Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
> for niche applications e.g.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>
>
> Basically a city bus on rails.
>
> The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
> service design it seems:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>
>
> When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
> locomotives were pretty cool-looking:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>

My dad was a dispatcher on the CSX railroad and complained about the unreliable Budd cars. Seems they often broke down and the headache of a blocked track was his. They were used for commuter trains because they could be configured into different sizes easily with one driver and could even driven by one car if the others broke down, which was not uncommon according to my dad. Some failures did not allow for any operation though.

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Rick C.

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On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:15:50 PM UTC-4, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
> > On 4/13/2022 5:11 PM, Cydrome Leader wrote:
> >> RichD <r_dela...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> >>> The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> >>>
> >>> Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> >>> that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> >>>
> >>> I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Rich
> >>
> >> electric motors have a far more useful torque curve too. That's why train
> >> locomotives are not direct drive in the civilized world but run a
> >> generator and traction motors. If you want to pickup speed fast, there's
> >> nothing better. If you're hauling freight, and need starting torque,
> >> there's also still nothing better than an electric motor.
> >
> > Incidentally there were some torque-converter driven trainsets in the US
> > for niche applications e.g.
> >
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_Rail_Diesel_Car#Design>
> >
> > Basically a city bus on rails.
> >
> > The later SPV-2000 was similar but an unreliable and difficult to
> > service design it seems:
> >
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budd_SPV-2000>
> What odd machines. I recall diesel operated light duty railcars in Ireland about 15 years ago.
> They made strangest sounds when operating. I think they were made in Korea. For the intended
> use of moving light weight trains around, I guess the worked fine. The north american train
> standard are unlike anywhere else in the world except maybe russia, so the entire concept of a
> fast light weight train just isn't happening here. Essentially passenger trains have to survive
> a very small crash with a freight train, and we have the biggest, heaviest railcars. They will
> obliterate any trains made anywhere with the exception of russia.
> > When AC traction motors were still quite large jackshaft-driven
> > locomotives were pretty cool-looking:
> >
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackshaft_(locomotive)#/media/File:PRR_DD1_running_gear.jpg>
> Ha, never seen that before, but it makes sense as that's the only way they made large motors
> back then. I'm not completely sure why though. Were there no motors with long skinny rotors at
> all, sort of like a modern servo motor where minimal inertia is key?

The motor turns at the RPM of the wheels. Even for an electric motor that is slow. So to get adequate torque at low speed the motor needs a large diameter. Compare to BEVs today where the motor is very compact, but turns at 9x the wheel rate which is much faster than the locomotive wheel rate. Some of the old steam engines had wheels tall as a man.

--

Rick C.

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On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 12:27:52 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
> On 4/13/2022 3:52 PM, RichD wrote:
> > Today the electric cars are the quickest on the road.
> > The classic petrol muscle cars are vying for the silver medal.
> Biggest engine is always better than anything there's no replacement for
> displacement.
> > Was it obvious to the designers, from day one,
> > that this would be the case? Is it simply a power/weight calculation?
> >
> > I'm congenitally leery of simple explanations -
> NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT VRRRRRROOMM BRRRRRRR

I think you missed the "silver" medal point. For cars on the road, you have to go to extreme lengths to find a faster accelerating car than BEVs.

--

Rick C.

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