littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> No terrestrial mammal can be more carnivorous than felids.

Um... technically... yes. Yes they can. IF they eat other carnivores.

An argument can be made for this:

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/11/4928

Some studies have claimed that the tell tale isotopic ratios that
identify carnivores were higher in Neanderthals than top level
predators! Now how can that be? Well. Carnivores accumulate
these isotopes from their prey. The plant-eaters get them from
plants, and they collect in their bodies, but then the carnivores eat
many plant-eaters. Right? So if a single plant-eater collects [Blah]
quantity then if you eat 10 plant-eaters you're getting 10x [Blah].

Over simplified, but you see how this works...

Killing predators makes a poop ton of sense. Kill a deer and you've
got some yummy food and some clothing but there's one less
deer in the woods for you to hunt, one less to breed & populate the
earth with more yummy deers. Kill a predator and you've got
yourself some yummy food, some clothing AND you've eliminated
some competition: More deer for you! And you've bought some
protection against attack from said predator, who will find it difficult
to harm you once he's dead.

Kill a cave bear and you've got a cave!

AND THEN there's cannibalism!

Cannibalism was a thing. It was a thing long before Neanderthals,
it was a thing long after Neanderthals and according to many
sources (accusations) it's still a thing today.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/650581897703030784

On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 11:18:42 AM UTC-4, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> littor...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > No terrestrial mammal can be more carnivorous than felids.
> Um... technically... yes. Yes they can. IF they eat other carnivores.
>
> An argument can be made for this:
>
> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/11/4928
>
> Some studies have claimed that the tell tale isotopic ratios that
> identify carnivores were higher in Neanderthals than top level
> predators! Now how can that be? Well. Carnivores accumulate
> these isotopes from their prey. The plant-eaters get them from
> plants, and they collect in their bodies, but then the carnivores eat
> many plant-eaters. Right? So if a single plant-eater collects [Blah]
> quantity then if you eat 10 plant-eaters you're getting 10x [Blah].
>
> Over simplified, but you see how this works...
>
> Killing predators makes a poop ton of sense. Kill a deer and you've
> got some yummy food and some clothing but there's one less
> deer in the woods for you to hunt, one less to breed & populate the
> earth with more yummy deers. Kill a predator and you've got
> yourself some yummy food, some clothing AND you've eliminated
> some competition: More deer for you! And you've bought some
> protection against attack from said predator, who will find it difficult
> to harm you once he's dead.
>
> Kill a cave bear and you've got a cave!
>
> AND THEN there's cannibalism!
>
> Cannibalism was a thing. It was a thing long before Neanderthals,
> it was a thing long after Neanderthals and according to many
> sources (accusations) it's still a thing today.
>
>
>
>
> -- --
>
> https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/650581897703030784

Handaxe as bait trap, kudu fish trap (submerged basket with guts as bait, for fish, coon, turtles, ...), pit traps, snares...
Dogs & pigs in China 8ka domestic waste-eaters eaten.

Op zondag 9 mei 2021 om 17:18:42 UTC+2 schreef I Envy JTEM:

> > No terrestrial mammal can be more carnivorous than felids.

> Um... technically... yes. Yes they can. IF they eat other carnivores.

Yes, the rodeo fantasies... sigh...

The simplest solution is: Hn seasonally followed the river to the coast:
AFAIK, all their fossils were coastal or riverside.
A combination of riverine + littoral foods yields the same C & N isotopes:
no need for exclusively-carnivore hunting or cannibalism.

Ear exostoses (in Hn skulls) are not typical for canivore-hunters:
they're only seen in humans exposed to cold waters.

Incredible: biology & anatomy are obvious:
Hn often dived for shallow-aquatic foods,
yet romantic views still believe Hn were rodeo cowboys...
How stupid can one be??

Google:
"coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT Verhaegen".

_____

> An argument can be made for this
> https://www.pnas.org/content/116/11/4928
> Some studies have claimed that the tell tale isotopic ratios that
> identify carnivores were higher in Neanderthals than top level
> predators! Now how can that be? Well. Carnivores accumulate
> these isotopes from their prey. The plant-eaters get them from
> plants, and they collect in their bodies, but then the carnivores eat
> many plant-eaters. Right? So if a single plant-eater collects [Blah]
> quantity then if you eat 10 plant-eaters you're getting 10x [Blah].
> Over simplified, but you see how this works...
> Killing predators makes a poop ton of sense. Kill a deer and you've
> got some yummy food and some clothing but there's one less
> deer in the woods for you to hunt, one less to breed & populate the
> earth with more yummy deers. Kill a predator and you've got
> yourself some yummy food, some clothing AND you've eliminated
> some competition: More deer for you! And you've bought some
> protection against attack from said predator, who will find it difficult
> to harm you once he's dead.
> Kill a cave bear and you've got a cave!
> AND THEN there's cannibalism!
> Cannibalism was a thing. It was a thing long before Neanderthals,
> it was a thing long after Neanderthals and according to many
> sources (accusations) it's still a thing today.

On Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:36:46 AM UTC-4, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op zondag 9 mei 2021 om 17:18:42 UTC+2 schreef I Envy JTEM:
> > > No terrestrial mammal can be more carnivorous than felids.
>
> > Um... technically... yes. Yes they can. IF they eat other carnivores.
> Yes, the rodeo fantasies... sigh...

Murky didn't bother to read comment, just punched the macro button.

>
> The simplest solution is: Hn seasonally followed the river to the coast:
> AFAIK, all their fossils were coastal or riverside.
> A combination of riverine + littoral foods yields the same C & N isotopes:
> no need for exclusively-carnivore hunting or cannibalism.
>
> Ear exostoses (in Hn skulls) are not typical for canivore-hunters:
> they're only seen in humans exposed to cold waters.
>
> Incredible: biology & anatomy are obvious:
> Hn often dived for shallow-aquatic foods,
> yet romantic views still believe Hn were rodeo cowboys...
> How stupid can one be??
>
> Google:
> "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT Verhaegen".
>
> _____
> > An argument can be made for this
> > https://www.pnas.org/content/116/11/4928
> > Some studies have claimed that the tell tale isotopic ratios that
> > identify carnivores were higher in Neanderthals than top level
> > predators! Now how can that be? Well. Carnivores accumulate
> > these isotopes from their prey. The plant-eaters get them from
> > plants, and they collect in their bodies, but then the carnivores eat
> > many plant-eaters. Right? So if a single plant-eater collects [Blah]
> > quantity then if you eat 10 plant-eaters you're getting 10x [Blah].
> > Over simplified, but you see how this works...
> > Killing predators makes a poop ton of sense. Kill a deer and you've
> > got some yummy food and some clothing but there's one less
> > deer in the woods for you to hunt, one less to breed & populate the
> > earth with more yummy deers. Kill a predator and you've got
> > yourself some yummy food, some clothing AND you've eliminated
> > some competition: More deer for you! And you've bought some
> > protection against attack from said predator, who will find it difficult
> > to harm you once he's dead.
> > Kill a cave bear and you've got a cave!
> > AND THEN there's cannibalism!
> > Cannibalism was a thing. It was a thing long before Neanderthals,
> > it was a thing long after Neanderthals and according to many
> > sources (accusations) it's still a thing today.

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> The simplest solution is: Hn seasonally followed the river to the coast:

Some, no doubt. Maybe even the ones that we our ancestors but not all.
Probably not even most.

And Neanderthals did practice cannibalism. There's plenty of evidence for
it, as there is evidence prior to Neanderthals and following Neanderthals.

Predators were hunted.

> no need for exclusively-carnivore hunting or cannibalism.

No, and there isn't any need. And there's no need to assume that anyone
ever meant there was a need. Predators would have been targets of
opportunity and probably often targets of necessity but it's unlikely that
they could have prioritized them.

Well. Perhaps socially. Like maybe they had to kill a wolf to "Become a
man."

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/650852701230514176

Op woensdag 12 mei 2021 om 07:30:15 UTC+2 schreef I Envy JTEM:

> > The simplest solution is: Hn seasonally followed the river to the coast:

> Some, no doubt. Maybe even the ones that we our ancestors but not all.
> Probably not even most.

Hn are typically (always?) found at coasts & rivers, and their C & N isotopes were halfway marine & freshwater foods: did they seasonally follow the river (e.g. the Meuse) to the coast, feeding on shellfish (shallow-diving cf ear exostoses, moderate pachyosteoslerosis, platymeria etc.), freshwater plants (collected wading?), salmon trek etc.

Google
"coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT".

> And Neanderthals did practice cannibalism. There's plenty of evidence for
> it, as there is evidence prior to Neanderthals and following Neanderthals..
> Predators were hunted.

> > no need for exclusively-carnivore hunting or cannibalism.

> No, and there isn't any need. And there's no need to assume that anyone
> ever meant there was a need. Predators would have been targets of
> opportunity and probably often targets of necessity but it's unlikely that
> they could have prioritized them.
> Well. Perhaps socially. Like maybe they had to kill a wolf to "Become a
> man."

On Wednesday, May 12, 2021 at 3:33:01 PM UTC-4, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op woensdag 12 mei 2021 om 07:30:15 UTC+2 schreef I Envy JTEM:
> > > The simplest solution is: Hn seasonally followed the river to the coast:
>
> > Some, no doubt. Maybe even the ones that we our ancestors but not all.
> > Probably not even most.
> Hn are typically (always?) found at coasts & rivers, and their C & N isotopes were halfway marine & freshwater foods: did they seasonally follow the river (e.g. the Meuse) to the coast, feeding on shellfish (shallow-diving cf ear exostoses, moderate pachyosteoslerosis, platymeria etc.), freshwater plants (collected wading?), salmon trek etc.
>
> Google
> "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT".
> > And Neanderthals did practice cannibalism. There's plenty of evidence for
> > it, as there is evidence prior to Neanderthals and following Neanderthals.
> > Predators were hunted.
>
> > > no need for exclusively-carnivore hunting or cannibalism.
>
> > No, and there isn't any need. And there's no need to assume that anyone
> > ever meant there was a need. Predators would have been targets of
> > opportunity and probably often targets of necessity but it's unlikely that
> > they could have prioritized them.
> > Well. Perhaps socially. Like maybe they had to kill a wolf to "Become a
> > man."

Paleo-Diet: cooked starch, grasshoppers

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/neanderthals-carb-loaded-helping-grow-their-big-brains

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/piles-ancient-poop-reveal-extinction-event-human-gut-bacteria

Op donderdag 13 mei 2021 om 05:06:20 UTC+2 schreef DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves:

....

> > > > The simplest solution is: Hn seasonally followed the river to the coast:

> > > Some, no doubt. Maybe even the ones that we our ancestors but not all..
> > > Probably not even most.

> > Hn are typically (always?) found at coasts & rivers, and their C & N isotopes were halfway marine & freshwater foods: did they seasonally follow the river (e.g. the Meuse) to the coast, feeding on shellfish (shallow-diving cf ear exostoses, moderate pachyosteoslerosis, platymeria etc.), freshwater plants (collected wading?), salmon trek etc. Google "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT".

> > > And Neanderthals did practice cannibalism. There's plenty of evidence for
> > > it, as there is evidence prior to Neanderthals and following Neanderthals.
> > > Predators were hunted.

> > > > no need for exclusively-carnivore hunting or cannibalism.

> > > No, and there isn't any need. And there's no need to assume that anyone
> > > ever meant there was a need. Predators would have been targets of
> > > opportunity and probably often targets of necessity but it's unlikely that
> > > they could have prioritized them.
> > > Well. Perhaps socially. Like maybe they had to kill a wolf to "Become a
> > > man."

> Paleo-Diet: cooked starch, grasshoppers

Possible, but when? 20 ka? 1 Ma??

> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/neanderthals-carb-loaded-helping-grow-their-big-brains
> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/piles-ancient-poop-reveal-extinction-event-human-gut-bacteria

Yes, this confirms
- supercarnivorous Hn = nonsense,
- C & N isotopes were simply intermediate between marine & freshwater foods:
apparently they seasonally followed the river to the coast (2013 Hum.Evol.28:237-266).