I recently ran into a major problem.

I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the
problem. None of them worked.

I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls
between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I
disabled it.

A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to
reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
itself.

I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
help.

I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the
problem.

But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would
conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
have found it by now.

I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any
information disappears when power is turned off.

I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64
bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.

The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo
and behold, the problem disappeard.

1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard
ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the
keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you
can turn off NumLock during boot.

2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It
completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary
component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
up when there was no keyboard connected!

Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was
using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on
line.

Recommendations:

1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
2. Turn on Windows firewall.
3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

Good Luck.

--
MRM

Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

[...]

> But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would
> conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
> have found it by now.

trillions of power supplies delivered

S and D keys are too close

--
MRM

On 4/17/2022 5:55 PM, Mike Monett wrote:
> The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo
> and behold, the problem disappeard.

Have you tried RE-plugging the keyboard to see if that causes the problem
to RE-appear? Are you sure the problem wasn't transient?

> 1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard
> ROM?

Possible? Sure. Likely? I'd have a better chance of winning the lottery
WITHOUT buying a ticket!

> There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the
> keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you
> can turn off NumLock during boot.

That's usually handled in the PC.

> 2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It
> completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary
> component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
> up when there was no keyboard connected!

That's the case with any (every?) machine. It's a standing joke for those
of us that run headless boxes... (machine won't boot? attach a monitor
and see a complaint about CNOS battery "Press F2 to continue" -- "Crap!
Now I've got to drag out a keyboard...")

> Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was
> using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
> not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on
> line.
>
> Recommendations:
>
> 1. Keep a spare keyboard available.

Keep a spare *monitor* available (so when your monitor craps out,
you'll be able to navigate an orderly shutdown)

Configure boot order to allow network boot (assuming you have the
skillset to make that happen) so you can get the machine "up"
even with a bad disk.

Keep a bootable USB and CD-ROM on hand (also good for "resetting"
forgotten passwords)

> 2. Turn on Windows firewall.
> 3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

Don't have valuable "stuff" on an exposed computer. So, *if* you are
ever a victim (or suspect that to be the case), you can simply restore
the ORIGINAL DISK IMAGE (that you took time to save when you built the
computer) -- which takes just a few minutes.

[The machine that I use as "console" for my cold archive just experienced
a disk failure. It took longer to get it disassembled -- to remove/replace
the hard disk -- than it took to restore the original disk image!]

> Good Luck.

A "common" boot problem is having a USB storage device installed at
boot time AND the boot order configured to query it as a potential
boot source. (you can likely alter your boot order to eliminate this
problem; ditto with optical media that happen to remain in the drive
at boot time)

It's possible that your keyboard was responding to the boot query with
enough "garbage" to confuse the system (think "buggy implementation").

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 00:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
wrote:

>I recently ran into a major problem.
>
>I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
>cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the
>problem. None of them worked.
>
>I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls
>between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I
>disabled it.
>
>A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to
>reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
>itself.
>
>I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
>help.
>
>I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the
>problem.
>
>But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would
>conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
>have found it by now.
>
>I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any
>information disappears when power is turned off.
>
>I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64
>bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.
>
>The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo
>and behold, the problem disappeard.
>
>1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard
>ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the
>keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you
>can turn off NumLock during boot.
>
>2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It
>completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary
>component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
>up when there was no keyboard connected!
>
>Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was
>using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
>not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on
>line.
>
>Recommendations:
>
>1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
>2. Turn on Windows firewall.
>3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.
>
>Good Luck.

So you had the same problem with the new back-up HDD?

I've had situations where unscheduled and unexplained power-downs
eventually killed sectors in a HDD, making it unbootable.

I also replaced a lot of hardware before the HDD eventually failed.
This included motherboard and PSU.

A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).

neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.

Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
'went out'.

RL

legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 00:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I recently ran into a major problem.
>>
>>I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
>>cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve
>>the problem. None of them worked.
>>
>>I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT
>>firewalls between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not
>>necessary and I disabled it.
>>
>>A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to
>>reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
>>itself.
>>
>>I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
>>help.
>>
>>I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause
>>the problem.
>>
>>But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would
>>conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
>>have found it by now.
>>
>>I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any
>>information disappears when power is turned off.
>>
>>I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains
>>64 bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.
>>
>>The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and
>>lo and behold, the problem disappeard.
>>
>>1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the
>>keyboard ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to
>>map all the keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable
>>memory since you can turn off NumLock during boot.
>>
>>2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly.
>>It completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary
>>component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It
>>showed up when there was no keyboard connected!
>>
>>Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I
>>was using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it
>>would not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get
>>back on line.
>>
>>Recommendations:
>>
>>1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
>>2. Turn on Windows firewall.
>>3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.
>>
>>Good Luck.
>
> So you had the same problem with the new back-up HDD?
>
> I've had situations where unscheduled and unexplained power-downs
> eventually killed sectors in a HDD, making it unbootable.
>
> I also replaced a lot of hardware before the HDD eventually failed.
> This included motherboard and PSU.
>
> A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
> power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).
>
> neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.
>
> Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
> 'went out'.
>
> RL

Thanks. I know how to power down my computer.

The problems started before I rebooted. The computer behaved very
strangely. Using the down cursor would cause an endless loop where the only
solution was to power off the computer. When I powered up, it would go back
into the endless loop.

I run Win7 on VirtualBox. I have numerous backup files on a separate ssd.
These show up as .VDI files, which I organise by date.

Changing the motherboard and loading the most recent backup solved the
problem and allowed me to get back online.

--
MRM

On 4/17/2022 7:02 PM, legg wrote:
> So you had the same problem with the new back-up HDD?
>
> I've had situations where unscheduled and unexplained power-downs
> eventually killed sectors in a HDD, making it unbootable.

Have a look through the logs? I'm always amused that folks don't take
the first steps to see what the *software* managed to observe (and record)
in a problem situation! This is particularly valuable as it will often
give you a picture into the recent past from which you might be able
to see a failure starting to develop...

> I also replaced a lot of hardware before the HDD eventually failed.
> This included motherboard and PSU.

Duplicate disk. Replace. See if problem persists (you have the original
disk -- in whatever state it happened to have degraded -- to return to).

The disks can be removed from most of my machines pretty easily (removable
carriers) -- except the AiO's (PITA). A USB dock (or, external USB disk
that's been gutted) lets you mount the removed disk and examine/retrieve
it from a fresh disk.

[Also handy to have other bootable media -- optical, USB -- that you can use
to examine a disk before removing it]

I've never replaced a PSU, motherboard or RAM (40 years of PCs). And,
only 3 disk drives. But, the disk is much easier to swap out
(or, replace with an externally mounted drive) than anything else!

> A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
> power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).
>
> neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.
>
> Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
> 'went out'.

Perhaps because it was seeing "inexplicable activities" (GIGO)
and assumed they were the result of an "illegal actor"
having corrupted the system in an unforseeable way?

Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

> I recently ran into a major problem.
>
> I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
> cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the
> problem. None of them worked.
>
> I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls
> between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I
> disabled it.
>
> A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to
> reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
> itself.
>
> I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
> help.
>
> I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the
> problem.
>
> But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would
> conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
> have found it by now.
>
> I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any
> information disappears when power is turned off.
>
> I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64
> bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.
>
> The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo
> and behold, the problem disappeard.

Sounds like a faulty keyboard.
Perhaps that was already mentioned.

Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:

[...]

> Changing the motherboard and loading the most recent backup solved the
> problem and allowed me to get back online.

Changing the motherboard showed the problem was not with the system. Changing
the keyboard solved the problem. Can you write into the keyboard prom?

--
MRM

On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
> I recently ran into a major problem.
>
> I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
> cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the
> problem. None of them worked.
>
> I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls
> between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I
> disabled it.
>
> A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to
> reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
> itself.
>
> I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
> help.
>
> I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the
> problem.
>
> But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would
> conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
> have found it by now.
>
> I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any
> information disappears when power is turned off.
>
> I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64
> bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.
>
> The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo
> and behold, the problem disappeard.
>
> 1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard
> ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the
> keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you
> can turn off NumLock during boot.
>
> 2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It
> completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary
> component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
> up when there was no keyboard connected!
>
> Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was
> using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
> not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on
> line.
>
> Recommendations:
>
> 1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
> 2. Turn on Windows firewall.
> 3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.
>
> Good Luck.
>
>
>
are you related to Skybuck ?

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
> I recently ran into a major problem.
>
> I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
> cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the
> problem. None of them worked.

This may have been a warning that something hardware related was amiss.

I have seen CPU cores go to 100% usage doing nothing in a browser but
only when the old MS IE got itself into a stupid crazy state.

The other one was a portable where after a while a keyboard or mouse
would stop working and then all keys including the on off button would
cease responding. This was a pure hardware fault - race condition since
it occurred originally on Windows but was exactly reproducible (except
with different diagnostic reports) from a Linux bootable CD.

Booting from a Linux CD isn't a bad way to proceed if you think a PC has
been badly compromised. Very few viruses can damage a physical CD. There
are bootable AV CD ROM images available for this sort of battle.

Likewise with tools to detect obvious hardware glitched. Most common is
spurious interrupts generated by a design fault/race condition.

Faults which appear in both Windows and an independent Linux
implementation are usually hardware related.

Bad capacitors around the memory PSU is my first suspicion for
unexplained BSODs - at rakish angles if they are on their last legs.

> Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was
> using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
> not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on
> line.
>
> Recommendations:
>
> 1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
> 2. Turn on Windows firewall.
> 3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.

Having a spare keyboard and mouse is always handy.
I would never rely on Windows Firewall for anything.

Most people these days have at least one previous computer still in
working condition and/or a portable or tablet or smartphone.

Granted Usenet support on some of these is less than stellar.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
>> I recently ran into a major problem.
>>
>> I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
>> cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve
>> the problem. None of them worked.
>
> This may have been a warning that something hardware related was amiss.
>
> I have seen CPU cores go to 100% usage doing nothing in a browser but
> only when the old MS IE got itself into a stupid crazy state.
>
> The other one was a portable where after a while a keyboard or mouse
> would stop working and then all keys including the on off button would
> cease responding. This was a pure hardware fault - race condition since
> it occurred originally on Windows but was exactly reproducible (except
> with different diagnostic reports) from a Linux bootable CD.
>
> Booting from a Linux CD isn't a bad way to proceed if you think a PC has
> been badly compromised. Very few viruses can damage a physical CD. There
> are bootable AV CD ROM images available for this sort of battle.
>
> Likewise with tools to detect obvious hardware glitched. Most common is
> spurious interrupts generated by a design fault/race condition.
>
> Faults which appear in both Windows and an independent Linux
> implementation are usually hardware related.

This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

> Bad capacitors around the memory PSU is my first suspicion for
> unexplained BSODs - at rakish angles if they are on their last legs.

The power supply is fine. I am running on it now.

I have the Ubuntu installation cd. I would try it except I wouldn't know
how to interpret the results. I'd be happy to send the keyboard to anyone
who has the tools to analyze the problem.

--
MRM

Mike Monett wrote:
> I recently ran into a major problem.
>
> I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
> cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the
> problem. None of them worked.
>
> I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls
> between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I
> disabled it.
>
> A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to
> reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
> itself.
>
> I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
> help.
>
> I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the
> problem.
>
> But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would
> conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
> have found it by now.
>
> I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any
> information disappears when power is turned off.
>
> I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64
> bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.
>
> The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo
> and behold, the problem disappeard.
>
> 1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard
> ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the
> keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you
> can turn off NumLock during boot.
>
> 2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It
> completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary
> component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
> up when there was no keyboard connected!
>
> Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was
> using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
> not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on
> line.
>
> Recommendations:
>
> 1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
> 2. Turn on Windows firewall.
> 3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.
>
> Good Luck.
>
>
>
0. Use a PS2-style keyboard.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Le 18/04/2022 à 02:55, Mike Monett a écrit :
> I recently ran into a major problem.
>
> I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
> cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve the
> problem. None of them worked.
>
> I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT firewalls
> between my computer and the internet, I felt this was not necessary and I
> disabled it.
>
> A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I tried to
> reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and continually reboot
> itself.
>
> I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This did not
> help.
>
> I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could cause the
> problem.
>
> But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered, you would
> conclude if there was a problem with the power on signal, someone would
> have found it by now.
>
> I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since any
> information disappears when power is turned off.
>
> I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only contains 64
> bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This did not help.
>
> The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced it, and lo
> and behold, the problem disappeard.
>
> 1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the keyboard
> ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to map all the
> keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of writeable memory since you
> can turn off NumLock during boot.
>
> 2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be deadly. It
> completly disables any computer, since it attacks the most elementary
> component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of the DOS days? It showed
> up when there was no keyboard connected!
>
> Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd drive I was
> using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on the drive and it would
> not boot. I replaced it with a backup and this enabled me to get back on
> line.
>
> Recommendations:
>
> 1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
> 2. Turn on Windows firewall.
> 3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.
>
> Good Luck.
>
>
>
That is exactly the kind of problem you have when there is
a resistive default between line and column in the keyboard matrix.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:21:29 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 4/17/2022 7:02 PM, legg wrote:
>> So you had the same problem with the new back-up HDD?
>>
>> I've had situations where unscheduled and unexplained power-downs
>> eventually killed sectors in a HDD, making it unbootable.
>
>Have a look through the logs? I'm always amused that folks don't take
>the first steps to see what the *software* managed to observe (and record)
>in a problem situation! This is particularly valuable as it will often
>give you a picture into the recent past from which you might be able
>to see a failure starting to develop...

Accessing the logs was the power-off trigger for the final two
successful Linux re-starts. Sector errors reported on next boot
attempt.
>
>> I also replaced a lot of hardware before the HDD eventually failed.
>> This included motherboard and PSU.
>
>Duplicate disk. Replace. See if problem persists (you have the original
>disk -- in whatever state it happened to have degraded -- to return to).

Fairly simple matter for a single OS/disk. I'm at sea after Linux
reformats/repartitions the disk for dual boot.
>
>The disks can be removed from most of my machines pretty easily (removable
>carriers) -- except the AiO's (PITA). A USB dock (or, external USB disk
>that's been gutted) lets you mount the removed disk and examine/retrieve
>it from a fresh disk.

I stopped using carriers for bootable OS about ten years ago, greatly
reducing the number of dead/scrambled OS/HDD events.
>
>[Also handy to have other bootable media -- optical, USB -- that you can use
>to examine a disk before removing it]
'neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.'
This was an option I never got around to doing while OS ran -
the HDD was scarcely 8mo old.
>
>I've never replaced a PSU, motherboard or RAM (40 years of PCs). And,
>only 3 disk drives. But, the disk is much easier to swap out
>(or, replace with an externally mounted drive) than anything else!

I suppose I'm more used to a lower quality hardware.

Motherboards regularly require cap replacement (2-3yrs) in both
Dell and ECS motherboards (symptom is 'no boot' with bulging
caps). I've replaced those in the Dell Optiplexes two or
three times with the best-to-be-had, as well as some inside
their custom PSUs.

Motherboards were replaced in three instances in various machines;
when USB connex became unpredictable,
when a video processor chip developed an open crater in its body,
and in the final case - this unexplained power-off.

I would have done it also, if I couldn't get keyboards to act
predictably (after doing the usual driver reinstall) as in your
case, though you don't actually mention changing keyboards (?).

Motherboards are obviously subject to insertion wear and static
damage on user accessible hardware.
>
>> A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
>> power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).
>>
>> neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.
>>
>> Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
>> 'went out'.
>
>Perhaps because it was seeing "inexplicable activities" (GIGO)
>and assumed they were the result of an "illegal actor"
>having corrupted the system in an unforseeable way?

Linux advisor was humint 'LXLE' while trying to get venerable
deskjet to print. All connections made, gui's successfully
engaged - printer queue reporting - just no printing on LTP1.
Other OS had no issues with the same hardware. So; OT

RL

On 4/18/2022 9:03 AM, legg wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 20:21:29 -0700, Don Y
> <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 4/17/2022 7:02 PM, legg wrote:
>>> So you had the same problem with the new back-up HDD?
>>>
>>> I've had situations where unscheduled and unexplained power-downs
>>> eventually killed sectors in a HDD, making it unbootable.
>>
>> Have a look through the logs? I'm always amused that folks don't take
>> the first steps to see what the *software* managed to observe (and record)
>> in a problem situation! This is particularly valuable as it will often
>> give you a picture into the recent past from which you might be able
>> to see a failure starting to develop...
>
> Accessing the logs was the power-off trigger for the final two
> successful Linux re-starts. Sector errors reported on next boot
> attempt.

Ah. Most (Windows) folks seem to be ignorant of the fact that they even exist!
*BSD (ditto Linux) are considerably easier to access/grep/preserve/etc.

>>> I also replaced a lot of hardware before the HDD eventually failed.
>>> This included motherboard and PSU.
>>
>> Duplicate disk. Replace. See if problem persists (you have the original
>> disk -- in whatever state it happened to have degraded -- to return to).
>
> Fairly simple matter for a single OS/disk. I'm at sea after Linux
> reformats/repartitions the disk for dual boot.

I don't understand why that would be the case?

Make a literal copy (while the disk is still bootable) and
try that, in place of the "suspect" disk. If problem goes
away, put suspect disk back in place and verify problem
*returns*.

I.e., the contents of the disks are identical so any
difference in bahavior is related to physical/mechanical
issues.

{reinstalling the suspect component is essential to
verify the fault follows it. Otherwise, things may
have "magically" improved -- because of a cable that
got jiggled in the process, because something had a
chance to cool down, because a different memory frame
is hosting a particular part of the code, etc.)

>> The disks can be removed from most of my machines pretty easily (removable
>> carriers) -- except the AiO's (PITA). A USB dock (or, external USB disk
>> that's been gutted) lets you mount the removed disk and examine/retrieve
>> it from a fresh disk.
>
> I stopped using carriers for bootable OS about ten years ago, greatly
> reducing the number of dead/scrambled OS/HDD events.

??? Huh? The carrier is a part of the computer -- like having the
right "mounting rails" was decades back. The disk fits in the
carrier and the carrier fits *inside* the computer. For my HPs:

<https://cdn.verk.net/images/73/2_338504-1500x1046.jpeg>

For my Sun boxen:

<https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XcYAAOSwq6VcLoFp/s-l300.jpg>

For my Dell boxen:

<https://allmarket.ge/u/11/28/63/FnBalhgLEk-KrOoiWc9-OA/e139435a-2bd9-4db6-9eb8-c873cfc9123d.jpg>

Perhaps you are thinking more in terms of:

<http://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/media/products/gallery_large/DRW110SATBK.E.jpg>

>> [Also handy to have other bootable media -- optical, USB -- that you can use
>> to examine a disk before removing it]
> 'neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.'
> This was an option I never got around to doing while OS ran -
> the HDD was scarcely 8mo old.

I incrementally build an image of the disk as I am building the original.
Install OS, take image. Install first few aps, take image on a SECOND
medium (so first image is still available as a fallback if you later decide
to roll back to "just after OS install"). Install next group of apps,
take image (overwriting/supplementing first image).

So, if I change my mind about installing Application #46 on the machine,
I can restore the image closest to -- but prior to -- application #46's
installation (I don't like uninstalling application on a Windows box as I
don't think it completely removes everything)

[This works fine for reasonably small system disks. Once you get up to
~1TB, then the imaging process becomes time-intensive (do it while
sleeping)]

Once I am happy with the build, I move the image into an offline storage area
and put a label on it. E.g., the machine whose disk recently died required
me to drag out it's image disk to recreate a new disk for the machine. Then,
put the failing (but not yet completely dead) disk in a USB dock and pull
off any files that I may consider "precious" that weren't present in the
image. Then, move the failing disk into the sanitizer before destruction.

>> I've never replaced a PSU, motherboard or RAM (40 years of PCs). And,
>> only 3 disk drives. But, the disk is much easier to swap out
>> (or, replace with an externally mounted drive) than anything else!
>
> I suppose I'm more used to a lower quality hardware.

Dunno. I've been running rescued Dells/HPs/Suns for about 25 years.
I've had to recap a neighbor's IBM machine. And, an old Dell server
with redundant power supplies ~15 years ago.

I haven't noticed any suspect caps in any of my current herd (I open
them up to vacuum the various active heat sinks periodically).

I keep a pile of spare power supplies for those machines that have
oddball power supplies as I'd rather replace than repair (at least
in the short-run). Z800 1100W:
<https://www.laptechtheitstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/hp1-3-1024x768.jpg>

Sun Blade 2000 670W:
<https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-017c0/images/stencil/2560w/products/2617/67373/Sun_300-1357_670W_Power_Supply_2__01878.1628802072.JPG?c=2>

(these are *big*/heavy)

Keyboards regularly develop "faulty keys" and need a good cleaning. So,
I keep a pile (literally!) of them on hand to swap out -- and arrange to
clean the flakey one(s) at my leisure.

Likewise, monitors (I have ~20 "spare" monitors on hand -- a consequence of
having configured workstations to use 4 or 6 monitors, each, in the past).
I remind SWMBO just how *spoiled* she is in that if she has a "problem"
with any of her computers, it's "remedied" in a matter of minutes! (This
is worth doing, periodically, to counter her complaints about all the
shi^H^Htuff that I have! :> )

> Motherboards regularly require cap replacement (2-3yrs) in both
> Dell and ECS motherboards (symptom is 'no boot' with bulging
> caps). I've replaced those in the Dell Optiplexes two or
> three times with the best-to-be-had, as well as some inside
> their custom PSUs.
>
> Motherboards were replaced in three instances in various machines;
> when USB connex became unpredictable,
> when a video processor chip developed an open crater in its body,
> and in the final case - this unexplained power-off.
>
> I would have done it also, if I couldn't get keyboards to act
> predictably (after doing the usual driver reinstall) as in your
> case, though you don't actually mention changing keyboards (?).

I'm not the OP complaining of a bad keyboard :> I *have* swapped out
mice (esp wireless ones) while using them. But, usually the problem
is "low batteries" in the mouse, leading to erratic behavior. Keyboards
just develop bad key (groups).

While most of my primary machines support hot swapping (of nonsystem disk),
I've never been excited to *try* that! :> (OTOH, I do it all the time
on my disk sanitizer -- but, I wrote the code for that so KNOW when the
disk is "safe" -- and, the disk is *wiped* at that point!)

> Motherboards are obviously subject to insertion wear and static
> damage on user accessible hardware.

The memory sockets on many motherboards are also rated for a very low number
of insertion cycles (like "single digits")! One reason I avoid rescued
"beige boxes" -- who knows how often the previous owner dicked with the
memory!

>>> A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
>>> power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).
>>>
>>> neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.
>>>
>>> Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
>>> 'went out'.
>>
>> Perhaps because it was seeing "inexplicable activities" (GIGO)
>> and assumed they were the result of an "illegal actor"
>> having corrupted the system in an unforseeable way?
>
> Linux advisor was humint 'LXLE' while trying to get venerable
> deskjet to print. All connections made, gui's successfully
> engaged - printer queue reporting - just no printing on LTP1.
> Other OS had no issues with the same hardware. So; OT

I've been moving to turn everything into a network appliance so
all a workstation needs is a keyboard, mouse and NIC. E.g.,
I PXE boot USFF boxes and use them as NASs, print over the wire,
serve my SAS and SCSI drives via a SAN, etc. It's a big win when
you have multiple machines that could want to access those resources
(and connector/cable wear-and-tear can become a latent problem)

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:35:13 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
>>> Duplicate disk. Replace. See if problem persists (you have the original
>>> disk -- in whatever state it happened to have degraded -- to return to).
>>
>> Fairly simple matter for a single OS/disk. I'm at sea after Linux
>> reformats/repartitions the disk for dual boot.
>
>I don't understand why that would be the case?
>
>Make a literal copy (while the disk is still bootable) and
>try that, in place of the "suspect" disk. If problem goes
>away, put suspect disk back in place and verify problem
>*returns*.
>
>I.e., the contents of the disks are identical so any
>difference in bahavior is related to physical/mechanical
>issues.
>
>{reinstalling the suspect component is essential to
>verify the fault follows it. Otherwise, things may
>have "magically" improved -- because of a cable that
>got jiggled in the process, because something had a
>chance to cool down, because a different memory frame
>is hosting a particular part of the code, etc.)
>

The HDD is definitely dead. Tried to probe it in a non-OS
slot of a different machine and the bios reported 'smart'
info at start - 'damaged-backup-replace', refusing to boot
with the drive present.

>>> The disks can be removed from most of my machines pretty easily (removable
>>> carriers) -- except the AiO's (PITA). A USB dock (or, external USB disk
>>> that's been gutted) lets you mount the removed disk and examine/retrieve
>>> it from a fresh disk.
>>
>> I stopped using carriers for bootable OS about ten years ago, greatly
>> reducing the number of dead/scrambled OS/HDD events.
>
>??? Huh? The carrier is a part of the computer -- like having the
>right "mounting rails" was decades back. The disk fits in the
>carrier and the carrier fits *inside* the computer. For my HPs:
>
><https://cdn.verk.net/images/73/2_338504-1500x1046.jpeg>
>
>For my Sun boxen:
>
><https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XcYAAOSwq6VcLoFp/s-l300.jpg>
>
>For my Dell boxen:
>
><https://allmarket.ge/u/11/28/63/FnBalhgLEk-KrOoiWc9-OA/e139435a-2bd9-4db6-9eb8-c873cfc9123d.jpg>
>
>Perhaps you are thinking more in terms of:
>
><http://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/media/products/gallery_large/DRW110SATBK.E.jpg>
>
I started with SNT brand hardware - uniformity allowing swaps between
different brands of PC. These were the ones that accompanied most of
my woes. I have some startech hardware now which doesn't seem
immediately to be any better. So there may be an SNT (for IDE) and a
startech (for SATA) in my built boxes.

All carriers add an extra few failure modes. Airflow and fan failure
are pretty common - case grounding another issue, but there are extra
connectors and harnesses that suffer as discs are swapped into and
out of the caddies themselves.

After a while, I expect the MS windows Hardware Abstraction Layer
to start complaining and misbehaving. With linux, I'm at the mercy
of whatever advice/gui is available at the time.

>>> [Also handy to have other bootable media -- optical, USB -- that you can use
>>> to examine a disk before removing it]
>> 'neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.'
>> This was an option I never got around to doing while OS ran -
>> the HDD was scarcely 8mo old.
>
>I incrementally build an image of the disk as I am building the original.
>Install OS, take image. Install first few aps, take image on a SECOND
>medium (so first image is still available as a fallback if you later decide
>to roll back to "just after OS install"). Install next group of apps,
>take image (overwriting/supplementing first image).
>
>So, if I change my mind about installing Application #46 on the machine,
>I can restore the image closest to -- but prior to -- application #46's
>installation (I don't like uninstalling application on a Windows box as I
>don't think it completely removes everything)
>
>[This works fine for reasonably small system disks. Once you get up to
>~1TB, then the imaging process becomes time-intensive (do it while
>sleeping)]
>
>Once I am happy with the build, I move the image into an offline storage area
>and put a label on it. E.g., the machine whose disk recently died required
>me to drag out it's image disk to recreate a new disk for the machine. Then,
>put the failing (but not yet completely dead) disk in a USB dock and pull
>off any files that I may consider "precious" that weren't present in the
>image. Then, move the failing disk into the sanitizer before destruction.

I used to use a ternary back-up system; newest cloned on top of oldest
at regular intervals. With the carriers, I think I did more harm than
good.

Now I just back-up the systems regularly to an external drive, and
replace the internal drive every so often.

I find myself, at present, unable to locate the previous known-good
version of the dead HDD (required to restore the back-up). There's
no place for it to hide. Must be going senile.
>
>>> I've never replaced a PSU, motherboard or RAM (40 years of PCs). And,
>>> only 3 disk drives. But, the disk is much easier to swap out
>>> (or, replace with an externally mounted drive) than anything else!
>>
>> I suppose I'm more used to a lower quality hardware.
>
>Dunno. I've been running rescued Dells/HPs/Suns for about 25 years.
>I've had to recap a neighbor's IBM machine. And, an old Dell server
>with redundant power supplies ~15 years ago.
>
>I haven't noticed any suspect caps in any of my current herd (I open
>them up to vacuum the various active heat sinks periodically).
>

I suspect that I own these models and brands precisely because they
do fail for simple reasons - availability and low price aftermarket.

>I keep a pile of spare power supplies for those machines that have
>oddball power supplies as I'd rather replace than repair (at least
>in the short-run). Z800 1100W:
><https://www.laptechtheitstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/hp1-3-1024x768.jpg>
>
>Sun Blade 2000 670W:
><https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-017c0/images/stencil/2560w/products/2617/67373/Sun_300-1357_670W_Power_Supply_2__01878.1628802072.JPG?c=2>
>
>(these are *big*/heavy)

Power supplies I know, having designed and developed similar stuff
over the years. Seldom saw anything novel or interesting in the
off-shore stuff, for the PC market, regardless of the paint job
or marketing.
>
>Keyboards regularly develop "faulty keys" and need a good cleaning. So,
>I keep a pile (literally!) of them on hand to swap out -- and arrange to
>clean the flakey one(s) at my leisure.
>
>Likewise, monitors (I have ~20 "spare" monitors on hand -- a consequence of
>having configured workstations to use 4 or 6 monitors, each, in the past).
>I remind SWMBO just how *spoiled* she is in that if she has a "problem"
>with any of her computers, it's "remedied" in a matter of minutes! (This
>is worth doing, periodically, to counter her complaints about all the
>shi^H^Htuff that I have! :> )

I've revived my acer monitors twice (dead electrolytics both times).
It's silly.

>
>> Motherboards regularly require cap replacement (2-3yrs) in both
>> Dell and ECS motherboards (symptom is 'no boot' with bulging
>> caps). I've replaced those in the Dell Optiplexes two or
>> three times with the best-to-be-had, as well as some inside
>> their custom PSUs.
>>
>> Motherboards were replaced in three instances in various machines;
>> when USB connex became unpredictable,
>> when a video processor chip developed an open crater in its body,
>> and in the final case - this unexplained power-off.
>>
>> I would have done it also, if I couldn't get keyboards to act
>> predictably (after doing the usual driver reinstall) as in your
>> case, though you don't actually mention changing keyboards (?).
>
>I'm not the OP complaining of a bad keyboard :> I *have* swapped out
>mice (esp wireless ones) while using them. But, usually the problem
>is "low batteries" in the mouse, leading to erratic behavior. Keyboards
>just develop bad key (groups).

My bad. Waiting for OP to change the frigging keyboard.

>
>While most of my primary machines support hot swapping (of nonsystem disk),
>I've never been excited to *try* that! :> (OTOH, I do it all the time
>on my disk sanitizer -- but, I wrote the code for that so KNOW when the
>disk is "safe" -- and, the disk is *wiped* at that point!)
>
>> Motherboards are obviously subject to insertion wear and static
>> damage on user accessible hardware.
>
>The memory sockets on many motherboards are also rated for a very low number
>of insertion cycles (like "single digits")! One reason I avoid rescued
>"beige boxes" -- who knows how often the previous owner dicked with the
>memory!
>
>>>> A dual-boot system, I lost the microsoft OS first (booted into
>>>> power-off), then the Linux install (sector errors).
>>>>
>>>> neither chkdsk or HDD brand tools could access the final HDD.
>>>>
>>>> Linux advisor suggested checking firewall shortly before Linux
>>>> 'went out'.
>>>
>>> Perhaps because it was seeing "inexplicable activities" (GIGO)
>>> and assumed they were the result of an "illegal actor"
>>> having corrupted the system in an unforseeable way?
>>
>> Linux advisor was humint 'LXLE' while trying to get venerable
>> deskjet to print. All connections made, gui's successfully
>> engaged - printer queue reporting - just no printing on LTP1.
>> Other OS had no issues with the same hardware. So; OT
>
>I've been moving to turn everything into a network appliance so
>all a workstation needs is a keyboard, mouse and NIC. E.g.,
>I PXE boot USFF boxes and use them as NASs, print over the wire,
>serve my SAS and SCSI drives via a SAN, etc. It's a big win when
>you have multiple machines that could want to access those resources
>(and connector/cable wear-and-tear can become a latent problem)

On 4/18/2022 11:55 AM, legg wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 10:35:13 -0700, Don Y

> The HDD is definitely dead. Tried to probe it in a non-OS
> slot of a different machine and the bios reported 'smart'
> info at start - 'damaged-backup-replace', refusing to boot
> with the drive present.

Dead is good -- it limits the effort you'll have to expend on it! :>
(and, if you can't find any backups, that limits *that* effort,
as well!)

>>>> The disks can be removed from most of my machines pretty easily (removable
>>>> carriers) -- except the AiO's (PITA). A USB dock (or, external USB disk
>>>> that's been gutted) lets you mount the removed disk and examine/retrieve
>>>> it from a fresh disk.
>>>
>>> I stopped using carriers for bootable OS about ten years ago, greatly
>>> reducing the number of dead/scrambled OS/HDD events.
>>
>> ??? Huh? The carrier is a part of the computer -- like having the
>> right "mounting rails" was decades back. The disk fits in the
>> carrier and the carrier fits *inside* the computer. For my HPs:
>>
>> <https://cdn.verk.net/images/73/2_338504-1500x1046.jpeg>
>>
>> For my Sun boxen:
>> <https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XcYAAOSwq6VcLoFp/s-l300.jpg>
>>
>> For my Dell boxen:
>> <https://allmarket.ge/u/11/28/63/FnBalhgLEk-KrOoiWc9-OA/e139435a-2bd9-4db6-9eb8-c873cfc9123d.jpg>
>>
>> Perhaps you are thinking more in terms of:
>> <http://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/media/products/gallery_large/DRW110SATBK.E.jpg>
>
> I started with SNT brand hardware - uniformity allowing swaps between
> different brands of PC. These were the ones that accompanied most of
> my woes. I have some startech hardware now which doesn't seem
> immediately to be any better. So there may be an SNT (for IDE) and a
> startech (for SATA) in my built boxes.
>
> All carriers add an extra few failure modes. Airflow and fan failure
> are pretty common - case grounding another issue, but there are extra
> connectors and harnesses that suffer as discs are swapped into and
> out of the caddies themselves.

Mine use the SATA connector on the *drive* to mate to the SATA cable
*in* the PC. So, it's essentially like a non-removable disk installation;
there's no ADDITIONAL intermediate "cable adapter/assembly". The
carrier/sled is just a mechanical convenience (instead of using screws to
fasten the drive to the chassis, you fasten the drive to the carrier/sled)

As the PCs were designed *with* these carriers, they've taken whatever
steps in the rest of the design to ensure adequate air flow, grounding,
etc. -- it's not like an "aftermarket" product that has to try to be
compatible with every PC out there.

> After a while, I expect the MS windows Hardware Abstraction Layer
> to start complaining and misbehaving. With linux, I'm at the mercy
> of whatever advice/gui is available at the time.

The problem with MS is that it tries REALLY HARD to hide errors.
E.g., it will retry operations far more often than *I* would tolerate;
let me know you're having a problem BEFORE it becomes so severe that
you're retries don't save my ass!

I designed my disk sanitizer to monitor the performance of the DUT
throughout the process. I.e., sectors should take *roughly* the same
amount of time (locally) to process. If sector X takes t and sector X+1
takes 1.5t, then I have to wonder if the disk is having a problem and
trying to hide that from me!

>> Once I am happy with the build, I move the image into an offline storage area
>> and put a label on it. E.g., the machine whose disk recently died required
>> me to drag out it's image disk to recreate a new disk for the machine. Then,
>> put the failing (but not yet completely dead) disk in a USB dock and pull
>> off any files that I may consider "precious" that weren't present in the
>> image. Then, move the failing disk into the sanitizer before destruction.
>
> I used to use a ternary back-up system; newest cloned on top of oldest
> at regular intervals. With the carriers, I think I did more harm than
> good.

Drives don't come out of my workstations unless they are being replaced
(upgraded) or fail.

I don't backup the workstations themselves; I can *rebuild* them from
the images created when they were built (for the system disk) and
then reinstall any additional "support files" on the other spindles
(I use 1T system disks and ~4T of additional "support" spindles).
As the support files are usually just copied from original install
media, there is no need to image those spindles -- just "recopy" from
the archived original media.

Any precious "working files" I just push onto some other machine
when the mood strikes. If there are multiple files related to <whatever>
I happen to be working on, I wrap them in an archive (ZIP, ISO, RAR, etc.)
and push *that*.

I have a daemon that watches the various machines and keeps a centralized
database updated so I can find copies of various files regardless of where
they may reside (it looks *into* each archive to see what it contains
so I can search for specific files instead of having to HOPE a particular
archive contains a particular file). Having synchronized time means I can
determine which copy is "most recent" just from timestamps (and, the daemon
computes a hash for each so I can verify that a file/archive is intact at
any time)

[I don't like incremental backups and full backups are too costly
in terms of time and space]

> Now I just back-up the systems regularly to an external drive, and
> replace the internal drive every so often.

Similar except my "external drive" is just some other host that
happens to be "up" when I push the copy across to it.

I tend to be working in reasonably "focused" areas so it's usually
one *type* of (set of) files that I'll be backing up. E.g., if I'm
designing a board, there will be datasheets, schematics, VHDL and
layouts that are all related. If doing an animation, then models,
materials and scripts. etc. It's too hard to try to work in multiple
disciplines simultaneously...

OTOH, one can often get sidetracked before a task is completed so
you need to be able to figure out where you *were* on a particular
task...

> I find myself, at present, unable to locate the previous known-good
> version of the dead HDD (required to restore the back-up). There's
> no place for it to hide. Must be going senile.

Welcome to the club!

The "save ONE image" approach means I can store all of the images
in a single place (I use a large "camera bag") and know where they are.
And, finding specific backups of *files* relies on my "catalog"
(which runs on my "network controller appliance" -- DNS, font server,
PXE server, NTP, etc. -- so it is always available via TELNET)

>>>> I've never replaced a PSU, motherboard or RAM (40 years of PCs). And,
>>>> only 3 disk drives. But, the disk is much easier to swap out
>>>> (or, replace with an externally mounted drive) than anything else!
>>>
>>> I suppose I'm more used to a lower quality hardware.
>>
>> Dunno. I've been running rescued Dells/HPs/Suns for about 25 years.
>> I've had to recap a neighbor's IBM machine. And, an old Dell server
>> with redundant power supplies ~15 years ago.
>>
>> I haven't noticed any suspect caps in any of my current herd (I open
>> them up to vacuum the various active heat sinks periodically).
>
> I suspect that I own these models and brands precisely because they
> do fail for simple reasons - availability and low price aftermarket.

I just rescue "discards". No one wants BIG boxes (e.g., the Z800's weigh
60+ pounds; the SB2000 is over 70!) so they have no "market value", *locally*.
While there may be an eBay value, the cost of shipping makes that awkward.
And, I usually need big boxes for the various add-in cards that I use (SAS
and SCSI HBAs, dual GPUs, etc.) as well as multiple spindles (the Z800s have
4 internal plus 3 exposed bays)

>> I keep a pile of spare power supplies for those machines that have
>> oddball power supplies as I'd rather replace than repair (at least
>> in the short-run). Z800 1100W:
>> <https://www.laptechtheitstore.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/hp1-3-1024x768.jpg>
>>
>> Sun Blade 2000 670W:
>> <https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-017c0/images/stencil/2560w/products/2617/67373/Sun_300-1357_670W_Power_Supply_2__01878.1628802072.JPG?c=2>
>>
>> (these are *big*/heavy)
>
> Power supplies I know, having designed and developed similar stuff
> over the years. Seldom saw anything novel or interesting in the
> off-shore stuff, for the PC market, regardless of the paint job
> or marketing.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 13:04:12 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

<snip>
>> Cloning a previous HDD from 2016 (ouch!) in order to restore last
>> back-up.
>>
>> If this boots the PC into a power-off situation, it will be a
>> stickler.
>
>That;s where windows sucks big time! I can *pull* a disk from a
>*BSD box and install it in another BSD box and not have to worry
>about the "changed hardware" upsetting the kernel.
>
>Likewise with applications; no need to worry about apps that
>weave themselves into the system! "rm -r /app_directory"

Booted into power-off, then powered on into the OS log-in screen
and POWERED OFF AGAIN - within the count of a few chimpanzees.

Trying to figure out if a power button or harness failure can be
responsible. Surely those signals are processed up the wazoo after
they hit the motherboard - can't just shut it down cold?

Vibration around the procesor? Processor itself ? (carried over
to replacement MB) Dirty processor socket?

Wouldn't be surprised if the new HDD is now toast.

RL

On 4/18/2022 3:07 PM, legg wrote:
> Booted into power-off, then powered on into the OS log-in screen
> and POWERED OFF AGAIN - within the count of a few chimpanzees.

But the MB is known good?

Did it seem to deliberately shut itself down? Or, just "die"
(e.g., like a power supply shutting down due to load)?
IIRC, the "4 second shutdown" is (was?) implemented in hardware;
that can be a low-end figure for how long you might expect the
system to stay up, at a minimum.

Remove all loads (disks, PCI/PCIe/etc. cards). Remove *memory*.
EXPECT it to complain about "no memory" when it boots. If this
doesn't happen, then the fundamentals aren't working.

[You can also pull the CPU and some MBs will signal an error
based on that, as well]

> Trying to figure out if a power button or harness failure can be
> responsible. Surely those signals are processed up the wazoo after
> they hit the motherboard - can't just shut it down cold?

If it was at 4 seconds, you could hypothesize the power button
was "stuck"/shorted/miswired (one problem I've seen with generic
MBs is the sheer number of connections that have to be made...
disk activity indicator, power button, reset (sometimes), pigtails
to USB and serial ports, etc.

> Vibration around the procesor? Processor itself ? (carried over
> to replacement MB) Dirty processor socket?

For the hell of it, try removing the processor to see if it alerts.
Or, if the symptoms change.

> Wouldn't be surprised if the new HDD is now toast.

Unplug it for the time being. Easy to check that on another machine
(I prefer a USB enclosure so the disk is isolated from the test machines
power, SATA controller, etc.)

On 2022-04-18, Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
>>> I recently ran into a major problem.
>>>
>>> I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
>>> cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve
>>> the problem. None of them worked.
>>
>> This may have been a warning that something hardware related was amiss.
>>
>> I have seen CPU cores go to 100% usage doing nothing in a browser but
>> only when the old MS IE got itself into a stupid crazy state.
>>
>> The other one was a portable where after a while a keyboard or mouse
>> would stop working and then all keys including the on off button would
>> cease responding. This was a pure hardware fault - race condition since
>> it occurred originally on Windows but was exactly reproducible (except
>> with different diagnostic reports) from a Linux bootable CD.
>>
>> Booting from a Linux CD isn't a bad way to proceed if you think a PC has
>> been badly compromised. Very few viruses can damage a physical CD. There
>> are bootable AV CD ROM images available for this sort of battle.
>>
>> Likewise with tools to detect obvious hardware glitched. Most common is
>> spurious interrupts generated by a design fault/race condition.
>>
>> Faults which appear in both Windows and an independent Linux
>> implementation are usually hardware related.
>
> This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

If you have an expensive one, maybe, I think the cheap ones have a
mask ROM.

--
Jasen.

On 18/04/2022 12:45, Mike Monett wrote:
> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
>>> I recently ran into a major problem.
>>>
>>> I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
>>> cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve
>>> the problem. None of them worked.
>>
>> This may have been a warning that something hardware related was amiss.
>>
>> I have seen CPU cores go to 100% usage doing nothing in a browser but
>> only when the old MS IE got itself into a stupid crazy state.
>>
>> The other one was a portable where after a while a keyboard or mouse
>> would stop working and then all keys including the on off button would
>> cease responding. This was a pure hardware fault - race condition since
>> it occurred originally on Windows but was exactly reproducible (except
>> with different diagnostic reports) from a Linux bootable CD.
>>
>> Booting from a Linux CD isn't a bad way to proceed if you think a PC has
>> been badly compromised. Very few viruses can damage a physical CD. There
>> are bootable AV CD ROM images available for this sort of battle.
>>
>> Likewise with tools to detect obvious hardware glitched. Most common is
>> spurious interrupts generated by a design fault/race condition.
>>
>> Faults which appear in both Windows and an independent Linux
>> implementation are usually hardware related.
>
> This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?

I think a stuck key is a more likely fault and by several orders of
magnitude.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 4/19/2022 5:48 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 12:45, Mike Monett wrote:
>> Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
>>>> I recently ran into a major problem.
>>>>
>>>> I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube. This
>>>> cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try to solve
>>>> the problem. None of them worked.
>>>
>>> This may have been a warning that something hardware related was amiss.
>>>
>>> I have seen CPU cores go to 100% usage doing nothing in a browser but
>>> only when the old MS IE got itself into a stupid crazy state.
>>>
>>> The other one was a portable where after a while a keyboard or mouse
>>> would stop working and then all keys including the on off button would
>>> cease responding. This was a pure hardware fault - race condition since
>>> it occurred originally on Windows but was exactly reproducible (except
>>> with different diagnostic reports) from a Linux bootable CD.
>>>
>>> Booting from a Linux CD isn't a bad way to proceed if you think a PC has
>>> been badly compromised. Very few viruses can damage a physical CD. There
>>> are bootable AV CD ROM images available for this sort of battle.
>>>
>>> Likewise with tools to detect obvious hardware glitched. Most common is
>>> spurious interrupts generated by a design fault/race condition.
>>>
>>> Faults which appear in both Windows and an independent Linux
>>> implementation are usually hardware related.
>>
>> This happened suddenly. Can you write to the keyboard?
>
> I think a stuck key is a more likely fault and by several orders of magnitude.

Or anything else that can generate multiple/spurious events.
I've seen USB devices disconnect and reconnect, repeatedly, without
"human intervention". This could be a problem *in* the device
(intermittent connection, failing power, firmware bug) *or* in the
host (perhaps a lack of resources that cause a repeated attempt
to reconnect after aborting the previous connection).

[I just discarded a thumb drive that behaved in this way. I'm pretty sure
it is a mechanical issue -- broken solder joint? -- as I can make things
better or worse by applying pressure to the device while it is installed
(but I have no desire to keep my finger on a drive just to use it "reliably"]

Surely simple to test if a device *is* the source of a problem (remove,
replace, verify, reinstall) -- though by no means a guarantee given the
number of variables that can come into play in the software.

In article <t3n1nr$8bf$1@dont-email.me>,
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>[I just discarded a thumb drive that behaved in this way. I'm pretty sure
>it is a mechanical issue -- broken solder joint? -- as I can make things
>better or worse by applying pressure to the device while it is installed
>(but I have no desire to keep my finger on a drive just to use it "reliably"]

Finger?

You should be keeping a *thumb* on it. That's why it's called a thumb drive! ;)

--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[-at-]signal11.org.uk | http://www.signal11.org.uk

Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:
> Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Changing the motherboard and loading the most recent backup solved the
>> problem and allowed me to get back online.
>
> Changing the motherboard showed the problem was not with the system. Changing
> the keyboard solved the problem. Can you write into the keyboard prom?

You can "write" or send data to any USB device. reading and writing data
is required for USB to work, period. Negotiation is required unlike
something more passive like RS-232 where you could just start sending data
out of the blue in 3 wire mode.

Do keyboards have a nonvolatile memory you can write to? I haven't seen
one you can write to, but there's nothing stopping you from making one
that is writable. You could probably collected data on the keyboard
with some crafty use of the scroll lock indicator, since this is set on
the computer itself.

Unless it has a hub or enumerates at some other device, it will still just
be a keyboard, or any weird flavot of a HID.

If you really want to test for a stuck key or other brokenness, boot a
runtime linux and run the "showkey --scancodes" command. It will show what
the keyboard is sending. Scan codes are completely different for USB than
for PS/2 keyboards.

FWIW, the way linux and windows handle USB keyboards is different in odd
ways. I've written keyboard emulators that worked fine with windows, but
needed timing adjustments to work with linux. There are also variations in
how various keyboards send data. Windows is real tolerant so there's no
effective difference unless you're really looking for it.

TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> wrote in
news:t3j7hd$h2v$1@dont-email.me:

> On 18/04/2022 01:55, Mike Monett wrote:
>> I recently ran into a major problem.
>>
>> I have been having problems with 100% cpu overload on Youtube.
>> This cripples the video playback. I tried numerous methods to try
>> to solve the problem. None of them worked.
>>
>> I then looked at the Window firewall. Since I have numerous NAT
>> firewalls between my computer and the internet, I felt this was
>> not necessary and I disabled it.
>>
>> A short while later, I ran into very serious problems. When I
>> tried to reboot, the screen would go absolutely crazy, and
>> continually reboot itself.
>>
>> I tried to diagnose the problem. I switched motherboards. This
>> did not help.
>>
>> I next examined the power supply to see if faulty voltages could
>> cause the problem.
>>
>> But after 3 decades and trillions of power supplied delivered,
>> you would conclude if there was a problem with the power on
>> signal, someone would have found it by now.
>>
>> I examined the onboard memory. You can't do much with this since
>> any information disappears when power is turned off.
>>
>> I examined the cmos ram. This is not much help, since it only
>> contains 64 bytes of memory. Even so, I removed the battery. This
>> did not help.
>>
>> The only thing left after all this was the keyboard. I replaced
>> it, and lo and behold, the problem disappeard.
>>
>> 1. Is it possible that some kind of virus could be written to the
>> keyboard ROM? There is plenty of memory available since it has to
>> map all the keypresses to USB. And it does have some sort of
>> writeable memory since you can turn off NumLock during boot.
>>
>> 2. If there is some kind of new virus coming around, it could be
>> deadly. It completly disables any computer, since it attacks the
>> most elementary component. Remember the "Press F2 to continue" of
>> the DOS days? It showed up when there was no keyboard connected!
>>
>> Whatever the source, the problem completely obliterated the ssd
>> drive I was using at the time. ChkDsk found numerous errors on
>> the drive and it would not boot. I replaced it with a backup and
>> this enabled me to get back on line.
>>
>> Recommendations:
>>
>> 1. Keep a spare keyboard available.
>> 2. Turn on Windows firewall.
>> 3. Keep a backup computer updated and available at all times.
>>
>> Good Luck.
>>
>>
>>
> are you related to Skybuck ?
>
>

Brilliant.

And oh... that was a troll post.
IF a "ChkDsk finds "problems" on an SSD...

The SSD is blown. Probably from stupid use of ChkDsk way too many
times or even an idiot "defragging" his drive. Neither of which is
needed on an SSD. Ever.