People who live in in the wild in wintry environments spend all summer cutting and stockpiling wood. Then they let it dry for a year. More commonly, in modern times, they buy enough dry firewood for the whole winter from someone that cuts wood for a living.

You cannot collect what you need every day. If you have a simple camp fire, you will need a pile of wood which is about 3 meters long...

On 11.5.2021. 6:38, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
>
> People who live in in the wild in wintry environments spend all summer cutting and stockpiling wood. Then they let it dry for a year. More commonly, in modern times, they buy enough dry firewood for the whole winter from someone that cuts wood for a living.
>
> You cannot collect what you need every day. If you have a simple camp fire, you will need a pile of wood which is about 3 meters long...

And I doubt that you will collect all this wood by breaking off
branches from a tree. No, you will need to cut the whole tree. And you
cannot do this with a hand axe, only with a proper stone axe.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On 11.5.2021. 9:08, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 11.5.2021. 6:38, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
>>
>> People who live in in the wild in wintry environments spend all summer
>> cutting and stockpiling wood. Then they let it dry for a year. More
>> commonly, in modern times, they buy enough dry firewood for the whole
>> winter from someone that cuts wood for a living.
>>
>> You cannot collect what you need every day. If you have a simple camp
>> fire, you will need a pile of wood which is about 3 meters long...
>
>         And I doubt that you will collect all this wood by breaking off
> branches from a tree. No, you will need to cut the whole tree. And you
> cannot do this with a hand axe, only with a proper stone axe.

https://youtu.be/tAY78SQ0wHc

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On Tuesday 11 May 2021 at 08:18:35 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

>>> People who live in in the wild in wintry environments spend all summer
>>> cutting and stockpiling wood. Then they let it dry for a year. More
>>> commonly, in modern times, they buy enough dry firewood for the whole
>>> winter from someone that cuts wood for a living.
>>>
>>> You cannot collect what you need every day. If you have a simple camp
>>> fire, you will need a pile of wood which is about 3 meters long...
>>
>> And I doubt that you will collect all this wood by breaking off
>> branches from a tree. No, you will need to cut the whole tree. And you
>> cannot do this with a hand axe, only with a proper stone axe.

Every house in this country (and I'm sure in
most others) kept a fire going permanently.
It was never put out, being needed for
cooking, etc., as well as warmth in the
winter.

The collection of firewood, and storing it
in a dry place, was a chore. But hardly an
excessive one. When the population grew
dense -- as in South-East England, after
~1600, there were often minor conflicts
about the peasantry collecting firewood
from the forests and woodlands of the
aristocrats and other rich. Then coal was
brought down from Newcastle for the
cities.

Likewise, every known "stone-age" human
society (e.g. Australian aborigines, North
American Indians, Papua New Guinea
Highlanders) kept fires going, without the
use of metal saws or axes.

"Pollarding" used to be common in these
islands, keeping branches down to a
manageable size -- so they could be cut
with a stone cleaver. Maybe that was
routine generally.

Being a chore and a low-grade activity,
it's not written about much, but that's
what the peasantry and slaves were for
-- "hewers of wood and drawers of
water" (Joshua 9:21).

"I’ll fish for thee and get thee wood enough.
A plague upon the tyrant that I serve!
I’ll bear him no more sticks . . "
Caliban in The Tempest

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

> People who live in in the wild in wintry environments spend all summer cutting and stockpiling
> wood. Then they let it dry for a year. More commonly, in modern times, they buy enough dry
> firewood for the whole winter from someone that cuts wood for a living.
>
> You cannot collect what you need every day. If you have a simple camp fire, you will need a
> pile of wood which is about 3 meters long...

A cord of firewood has approximately the same energy (BTUs) as 20 gallons of diesel fuel.
But the diesel fuel in a modern use is *Vastly* more efficient. Most of the energy from the
firewood is lost where you don't need it, like straight up in the air.

But you're speaking about heating. Like a house/cabin. It's not very efficient. If you instead
want to talk about cooking then it's a whole different ball park.

With bedding, and some sort of shelter, you could probably get away with taking large stones
from the campfire and using it to warm things up under your covers. The trapped body heat
can take things from there.

The point of the stones is to keep you from losing body heat. You pre warm the bedding,
saving most of the work...

For cooking it's the embers that really matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ember

Wood for cooking is far more efficient than wood for heating a space.

Wood, btw, emits more CO2 than any fossil fuel, including coal. It's a horrible fuel even
today! It can take decades to grow a tree while you can easily burn dozens. Think of
this:

Even if you only burned 10 trees a year and it only took 25 years to grow a tree...

That means you burned 250 trees before your new ones can grow!

Now add any kind of population growth -- increase in tree demand -- and you see the
planet running out of trees after not very long.

Trees for heating are AWFUL! I've seen any numbers worked out on trees for
transportation -- steam power?

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/650852701230514176

On 11.5.2021. 11:56, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Tuesday 11 May 2021 at 08:18:35 UTC+1, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
>>>> People who live in in the wild in wintry environments spend all summer
>>>> cutting and stockpiling wood. Then they let it dry for a year. More
>>>> commonly, in modern times, they buy enough dry firewood for the whole
>>>> winter from someone that cuts wood for a living.
>>>>
>>>> You cannot collect what you need every day. If you have a simple camp
>>>> fire, you will need a pile of wood which is about 3 meters long...
>>>
>>> And I doubt that you will collect all this wood by breaking off
>>> branches from a tree. No, you will need to cut the whole tree. And you
>>> cannot do this with a hand axe, only with a proper stone axe.
>
> Every house in this country (and I'm sure in
> most others) kept a fire going permanently.
> It was never put out, being needed for
> cooking, etc., as well as warmth in the
> winter.
>
> The collection of firewood, and storing it
> in a dry place, was a chore. But hardly an
> excessive one. When the population grew
> dense -- as in South-East England, after
> ~1600, there were often minor conflicts
> about the peasantry collecting firewood
> from the forests and woodlands of the
> aristocrats and other rich. Then coal was
> brought down from Newcastle for the
> cities.
>
> Likewise, every known "stone-age" human
> society (e.g. Australian aborigines, North
> American Indians, Papua New Guinea
> Highlanders) kept fires going, without the
> use of metal saws or axes.
>
> "Pollarding" used to be common in these
> islands, keeping branches down to a
> manageable size -- so they could be cut
> with a stone cleaver. Maybe that was
> routine generally.
>
> Being a chore and a low-grade activity,
> it's not written about much, but that's
> what the peasantry and slaves were for
> -- "hewers of wood and drawers of
> water" (Joshua 9:21).
>
> "I’ll fish for thee and get thee wood enough.
> A plague upon the tyrant that I serve!
> I’ll bear him no more sticks . . "
> Caliban in The Tempest

That's all perfectly fine. But, people have spread north in the middle
of Ice Age, and immediately after they started to use ground stone
technology.
BTW, I didn't know that you are a Brit (I thought that you are Ozzie).
Can you tell me if you are familiar with the word "gey", and in which
context? I thought that "gey" isn't the same as "gay" (this isn't a joke).

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On 11.5.2021. 12:53, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> It can take decades to grow a tree while you can easily burn dozens. Think of
> this:
>
> Even if you only burned 10 trees a year and it only took 25 years to grow a tree...
>
> That means you burned 250 trees before your new ones can grow!
>
> Now add any kind of population growth -- increase in tree demand -- and you see the
> planet running out of trees after not very long.

This is called "deforestation", and this happened right when bipedals
emerged on this planet.
BTW, the "trick" for the above puzzle is that you burn one tree after
the other. It may be true that it takes 25 years for a tree to grow, but
hey, 250 trees (actually, 250,000 trees, also) can grow in a matter of
25 years, if they don't grow one after the other, :) .

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 12:33:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 11.5.2021. 12:53, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> > It can take decades to grow a tree while you can easily burn dozens. Think of
> > this:
> >
> > Even if you only burned 10 trees a year and it only took 25 years to grow a tree...
> >
> > That means you burned 250 trees before your new ones can grow!
> >
> > Now add any kind of population growth -- increase in tree demand -- and you see the
> > planet running out of trees after not very long.
> This is called "deforestation", and this happened right when bipedals
> emerged on this planet.
> BTW, the "trick" for the above puzzle is that you burn one tree after
> the other. It may be true that it takes 25 years for a tree to grow, but
> hey, 250 trees (actually, 250,000 trees, also) can grow in a matter of
> 25 years, if they don't grow one after the other, :) .
>
> --
> https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
> human-e...@googlegroups.com

Australian fire calligraphy: small cool fires after rainy season managed the dry hot vegetaion & fauna best.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100083720?utm_campaign=news-article-share-desktop-0&utm_content=twitter&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web&__twitter_impression=true

Painting of Homo erectus utilizing a prairie fire.

http://jay-matternes.com/Hominids.html

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 5:03:24 PM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 12:33:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> > On 11.5.2021. 12:53, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> > > It can take decades to grow a tree while you can easily burn dozens. Think of
> > > this:
> > >
> > > Even if you only burned 10 trees a year and it only took 25 years to grow a tree...
> > >
> > > That means you burned 250 trees before your new ones can grow!
> > >
> > > Now add any kind of population growth -- increase in tree demand -- and you see the
> > > planet running out of trees after not very long.
> > This is called "deforestation", and this happened right when bipedals
> > emerged on this planet.
> > BTW, the "trick" for the above puzzle is that you burn one tree after
> > the other. It may be true that it takes 25 years for a tree to grow, but
> > hey, 250 trees (actually, 250,000 trees, also) can grow in a matter of
> > 25 years, if they don't grow one after the other, :) .
> >
> > --
> > https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
> > human-e...@googlegroups.com
> Australian fire calligraphy: small cool fires after rainy season managed the dry hot vegetaion & fauna best.
>
> https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100083720?utm_campaign=news-article-share-desktop-0&utm_content=twitter&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web&__twitter_impression=true
>
> Painting of Homo erectus utilizing a prairie fire.
>
> http://jay-matternes.com/Hominids.html

For (lazy) Mario, here's the text-only article.

https://www.abc.net.au/news

Rare aerial photos intended to help open up the outback to mining following World War II instead deliver a lesson from the last generation of Indigenous people to live in the Great Sandy Desert on how to protect life and country.

The strange patterns overlaying desert dunes in black-and-white images taken in 1947 are like a letter written to Braedan Taylor by his great-grandparents.

Like them, Braedan, better known locally as Bayo, uses fire to manage the huge Indigenous Protected Area that came as a result of the Karajarri native title determination.

Taking a break from his work as the head Karajarri ranger, Bayo looks at crumpled printouts of the old photos and admires the skill of his ancestors.

"It shows me the region, focusing on the areas that we really want to burn, how we want to burn."

Fire calligraphy for block
What looks like giant Japanese calligraphy painted in white across the landscape is actually fire scars left in desert vegetation from the traditional burning of Karajarri people living off the land.

For those who know how fire burns across a dry landscape, the intricate patterns show the work of masters of fire.

"When I first saw the old photograph I thought these old people probably did a better job because they were on foot, they used to live out in the desert and light fires and break up the country."

The big picture
Broome and other towns in Western Australia's north-west had been evacuated in 1942 as Japanese aircraft bombed and strafed virtually at will.

At war's end the fears of Japanese invasion were replaced with a renewed drive to develop the north, to populate or perish.

Part of the push was a massive program of aerial photography in 1947.

A black and white image of a military plane with two propellers.
A Royal Australia Air Force Mosquito aircraft in flight.(Supplied: Australian War Memorial)
Recruited for the task were Royal Australian Air Force Mosquito fast bombers — aircraft that had proven themselves as versatile and reliable during the war but were rapidly becoming redundant in peace time.

The aim was to provide detailed photographs of the landscape with a known scale that could assist with the development of mining and pastoralism.

Crews flew back and forwards photographing vast areas of Australia, including some of the most remote desert regions.

The 1950s were imminent and the country was on the verge of a post-war boom..

A black and white aerial image of sand dunes and fire scars.
An aerial photograph of the Great Sandy Desert taken in 1947 showing a complex pattern of white fire scars where Karajarri people still living on the land burnt desert vegetation.(Supplied: Commonwealth Of Australia (Geoscience Australia))
The photographs taken over the western Great Sandy Desert attest to the fact that life for many Karajarri people had not changed for tens of thousands of years.

Fire-stick farming
At the Karajarri ranger camp on an abandoned mining airstrip, the still air pulsates with baking heat.

A ranger snores on a stretcher crammed into the limited shade, surrounded by chairs, tables and everyone else swatting flies and waiting for the sun to drop.

Even a thin trail of smoke from the smouldering campfire struggles to rise across the oppressively hot clearing in the scrub.

But it doesn't stop the eldest of the rangers, Kulu, from jumping up and telling us to "come and get smoked".

A vehicle with an Indigenous Protected Area sign parked near a helicopter.
The Karajarri rangers use helicopters to drop incendiaries to ignite fires at the end of the wet season when they burn smaller areas at cooler temperatures.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
Two men driving a car.
Karajarri rangers Braedan "Bayo" Taylor and Kamahl Bangu driving through the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
Flowers in front of a desert camp.
Dawn at the Karajarri rangers' camp in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
With as much fanfare as perhaps the making of a cup of tea, Kulu buries some green foliage in the coals and instructs us to stand in the path of the thickening column of smoke, saying it will help rid us of any bad spirits.

The chattels of fire are all around the camp, from the sooty cast-iron dinner pots to the boxes of incendiaries waiting to be dropped from helicopters to ignite controlled burns.

Bayo explains that fire has always been a part of everyday Karajarri life, and the work of rangers is the modern version of what can be deciphered from the complex patterns in the old photos.

"I think they are just showing me how they used to burn smaller areas that they used to break up the country.

"They would have been hunting, gathering, using fire for breaking up the area for them, maybe to set up a camp and probably smoking ceremonies.

"It makes me feel like I'm doing the same thing they were doing for years, and still going to be doing."

From the ashes
After millennia of Karajarri people shaping the desert with fire and the wildlife found there, a time came when the people vanished.

Karajarri land and sea manager Ewan Noakes says that without people, the desert was profoundly changed.

A man holding a small lizard.
Ewan Noakes with a legless lizard caught as part of research into the impacts of fire on wildlife.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
"Since the Karajarri people left the desert — it would have been up until the 1950s or '60s there still would have been people out here — there hasn't been any fire management being conducted.

"So what we were seeing were big late-season fires, whether that was from someone lighting a fire or a lightning strike, were just decimating the desert."

Rather than a crosshatch of small fire scars like those captured in the 1947 photographs, massive slabs of desert acacia and spinifex country burnt in scorchingly hot fires along with the animals that lived there.

"We were losing 36 to 50 per cent of 24,000 square kilometres of desert to just a couple of fires every year."

It wasn't until native title led to the formation of the Karajarri rangers, and an Indigenous Protected Area around one-third the size of Tasmania was established, that people returned to care for the desert.

"The rangers get out every year and conduct early-season burning, and we've been doing that in the desert with the ranger program since 2014," Ewan says.

"The rangers have spent quite a bit of time and effort doing ground burning and also getting in aircraft doing aerial burning."

Fire starters
The work produced immediate results, with a virtual halt to the hot late-season fires that could burn across hundreds of kilometres.

Signs of wildlife including bilby burrows were discovered with increasing frequency — all indications were that the work of the Indigenous rangers was a success.

A dwarf bearded dragon caught by the Karajarri Rangers as a part of their research into the impacts of fire on wildlife in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
Harmless with striking looks, this desert banded snake was caught as part of Karajarri Ranger research on the impacts of fire on wildlife in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
And that's when the old aerial photos were discovered to have captured the traditional burning practices when Karajarri people still lived in the desert, showing how much more work was needed.

"Fire researcher Ed Blackwood was able to get his hands on the photos and through GIS (Geographic Information Systems) he was able to stitch them all together," Ewan says.

"What it showed was that the average patch size burnt then was a hell of a lot smaller than the average patch size burnt now."

On 11.5.2021. 23:12, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 5:03:24 PM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 12:33:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> On 11.5.2021. 12:53, I Envy JTEM wrote:
>>>> It can take decades to grow a tree while you can easily burn dozens. Think of
>>>> this:
>>>>
>>>> Even if you only burned 10 trees a year and it only took 25 years to grow a tree...
>>>>
>>>> That means you burned 250 trees before your new ones can grow!
>>>>
>>>> Now add any kind of population growth -- increase in tree demand -- and you see the
>>>> planet running out of trees after not very long.
>>> This is called "deforestation", and this happened right when bipedals
>>> emerged on this planet.
>>> BTW, the "trick" for the above puzzle is that you burn one tree after
>>> the other. It may be true that it takes 25 years for a tree to grow, but
>>> hey, 250 trees (actually, 250,000 trees, also) can grow in a matter of
>>> 25 years, if they don't grow one after the other, :) .
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
>>> human-e...@googlegroups.com
>> Australian fire calligraphy: small cool fires after rainy season managed the dry hot vegetaion & fauna best.
>>
>> https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100083720?utm_campaign=news-article-share-desktop-0&utm_content=twitter&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web&__twitter_impression=true
>>
>> Painting of Homo erectus utilizing a prairie fire.
>>
>> http://jay-matternes.com/Hominids.html
>
> For (lazy) Mario, here's the text-only article.
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news
>
> Rare aerial photos intended to help open up the outback to mining following World War II instead deliver a lesson from the last generation of Indigenous people to live in the Great Sandy Desert on how to protect life and country.
>
> The strange patterns overlaying desert dunes in black-and-white images taken in 1947 are like a letter written to Braedan Taylor by his great-grandparents.
>
> Like them, Braedan, better known locally as Bayo, uses fire to manage the huge Indigenous Protected Area that came as a result of the Karajarri native title determination.
>
> Taking a break from his work as the head Karajarri ranger, Bayo looks at crumpled printouts of the old photos and admires the skill of his ancestors.
>
> "It shows me the region, focusing on the areas that we really want to burn, how we want to burn."
>
>
> Fire calligraphy for block
> What looks like giant Japanese calligraphy painted in white across the landscape is actually fire scars left in desert vegetation from the traditional burning of Karajarri people living off the land.
>
> For those who know how fire burns across a dry landscape, the intricate patterns show the work of masters of fire.
>
> "When I first saw the old photograph I thought these old people probably did a better job because they were on foot, they used to live out in the desert and light fires and break up the country."
>
> The big picture
> Broome and other towns in Western Australia's north-west had been evacuated in 1942 as Japanese aircraft bombed and strafed virtually at will.
>
> At war's end the fears of Japanese invasion were replaced with a renewed drive to develop the north, to populate or perish.
>
> Part of the push was a massive program of aerial photography in 1947.
>
> A black and white image of a military plane with two propellers.
> A Royal Australia Air Force Mosquito aircraft in flight.(Supplied: Australian War Memorial)
> Recruited for the task were Royal Australian Air Force Mosquito fast bombers — aircraft that had proven themselves as versatile and reliable during the war but were rapidly becoming redundant in peace time.
>
> The aim was to provide detailed photographs of the landscape with a known scale that could assist with the development of mining and pastoralism.
>
> Crews flew back and forwards photographing vast areas of Australia, including some of the most remote desert regions.
>
> The 1950s were imminent and the country was on the verge of a post-war boom.
>
> A black and white aerial image of sand dunes and fire scars.
> An aerial photograph of the Great Sandy Desert taken in 1947 showing a complex pattern of white fire scars where Karajarri people still living on the land burnt desert vegetation.(Supplied: Commonwealth Of Australia (Geoscience Australia))
> The photographs taken over the western Great Sandy Desert attest to the fact that life for many Karajarri people had not changed for tens of thousands of years.
>
> Fire-stick farming
> At the Karajarri ranger camp on an abandoned mining airstrip, the still air pulsates with baking heat.
>
> A ranger snores on a stretcher crammed into the limited shade, surrounded by chairs, tables and everyone else swatting flies and waiting for the sun to drop.
>
> Even a thin trail of smoke from the smouldering campfire struggles to rise across the oppressively hot clearing in the scrub.
>
> But it doesn't stop the eldest of the rangers, Kulu, from jumping up and telling us to "come and get smoked".
>
> A vehicle with an Indigenous Protected Area sign parked near a helicopter.
> The Karajarri rangers use helicopters to drop incendiaries to ignite fires at the end of the wet season when they burn smaller areas at cooler temperatures.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> Two men driving a car.
> Karajarri rangers Braedan "Bayo" Taylor and Kamahl Bangu driving through the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> Flowers in front of a desert camp.
> Dawn at the Karajarri rangers' camp in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> With as much fanfare as perhaps the making of a cup of tea, Kulu buries some green foliage in the coals and instructs us to stand in the path of the thickening column of smoke, saying it will help rid us of any bad spirits.
>
> The chattels of fire are all around the camp, from the sooty cast-iron dinner pots to the boxes of incendiaries waiting to be dropped from helicopters to ignite controlled burns.
>
> Bayo explains that fire has always been a part of everyday Karajarri life, and the work of rangers is the modern version of what can be deciphered from the complex patterns in the old photos.
>
> "I think they are just showing me how they used to burn smaller areas that they used to break up the country.
>
> "They would have been hunting, gathering, using fire for breaking up the area for them, maybe to set up a camp and probably smoking ceremonies.
>
> "It makes me feel like I'm doing the same thing they were doing for years, and still going to be doing."
>
> From the ashes
> After millennia of Karajarri people shaping the desert with fire and the wildlife found there, a time came when the people vanished.
>
> Karajarri land and sea manager Ewan Noakes says that without people, the desert was profoundly changed.
>
> A man holding a small lizard.
> Ewan Noakes with a legless lizard caught as part of research into the impacts of fire on wildlife.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> "Since the Karajarri people left the desert — it would have been up until the 1950s or '60s there still would have been people out here — there hasn't been any fire management being conducted.
>
> "So what we were seeing were big late-season fires, whether that was from someone lighting a fire or a lightning strike, were just decimating the desert."
>
> Rather than a crosshatch of small fire scars like those captured in the 1947 photographs, massive slabs of desert acacia and spinifex country burnt in scorchingly hot fires along with the animals that lived there.
>
> "We were losing 36 to 50 per cent of 24,000 square kilometres of desert to just a couple of fires every year."
>
> It wasn't until native title led to the formation of the Karajarri rangers, and an Indigenous Protected Area around one-third the size of Tasmania was established, that people returned to care for the desert.
>
> "The rangers get out every year and conduct early-season burning, and we've been doing that in the desert with the ranger program since 2014," Ewan says.
>
> "The rangers have spent quite a bit of time and effort doing ground burning and also getting in aircraft doing aerial burning."
>
> Fire starters
> The work produced immediate results, with a virtual halt to the hot late-season fires that could burn across hundreds of kilometres.
>
> Signs of wildlife including bilby burrows were discovered with increasing frequency — all indications were that the work of the Indigenous rangers was a success.
>
> A dwarf bearded dragon caught by the Karajarri Rangers as a part of their research into the impacts of fire on wildlife in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> Harmless with striking looks, this desert banded snake was caught as part of Karajarri Ranger research on the impacts of fire on wildlife in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> And that's when the old aerial photos were discovered to have captured the traditional burning practices when Karajarri people still lived in the desert, showing how much more work was needed.
>
> "Fire researcher Ed Blackwood was able to get his hands on the photos and through GIS (Geographic Information Systems) he was able to stitch them all together," Ewan says.
>
> "What it showed was that the average patch size burnt then was a hell of a lot smaller than the average patch size burnt now."
>
> The aerial photos were analysed to better understand the complex patterns of traditional burning.(Supplied: Ed Blackwood)
> The 70-year-old photos of traditional Indigenous burning were a revelation for Mr Blackwood and his research into the use of fire to best conserve Australian wildlife.
>
> "It's an extremely intense level of fire management; it's people living on this country every single day, burning pretty much every single day so they could get food, and looking after their cultural sites," he says.
>
> "There is nowhere else in Australia or probably the world where we've got this first-hand look at what fire scars were like from this perspective, when traditional people were still living on country."
>
> Karajarri Rangers carefully plan controlled burning across their Indigenous Protected Area in the Great Sandy Desert which is one third the size of Tasmania.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> The rare snapshot of traditional burning showed the Karajarri rangers that their work of controlled burning to reduce wildfires — from thousands of square kilometres to just hundreds — was just the beginning.
>
> Karajarri Rangers light fires at the end of the wet season in the Great Sandy Desert, which burn smaller areas at cooler temperatures than fires ignited at the end of the dry season.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> They needed to shrink these down by another order of magnitude.
>
> At the end of the wet season fire snakes through the Great Sandy Desert's vegetation, leaving patches burnt and unburnt.(ABC Kimberley: Andrew Seabourne)
> "We need to break up the older fuels as much as we can, and we're slowly just cutting those patches of four-year, five-year, six-year fuels, cutting them with fire, slicing them up into little chunks," Ewan says.
>
> Pyro-diversity
> Acacia branches overhanging the desert track bash arrhythmically on the windscreen of the four-wheel drive, jarring with the heavy back beat of the pumping reggae track.
>
> It's dawn and Bayo and his offsider Kamahl Bangu sing along happily as they drive out to check wildlife traps.
>
> Braedan Taylor and Kamahl Bangu check traps in the Great Sandy Desert as a part of the Karajarri Rangers' fauna survey.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> "We are studying the sites to see how it is affecting the animals with the fire and how many we'll be getting in one area compared to another," Bayo says.
>
> "It's good two-way learning from scientists and traditional knowledge and the effect of fire on the biodiversity."
>
> Red sand dunes on the western edge of the Great Sandy Desert are almost obscured by vegetation.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> A feral camel on the Karajarri Indigenous Protected Area in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> We are only 100 kilometres from the Indian Ocean and despite its name, the Great Sandy Desert here is densely vegetated in patches, almost obscuring the rolling red sand dunes.
>
> Pulling up where a piece of pink tape tied to a branch flaps in the easterly breeze, Environs Kimberley ecologist Hamsini Bijlani is already checking a line of pit and funnel traps dug into the sand.
>
> Head Karajarri Ranger Braedan 'Bayo' Taylor and Environs Kimberley ecologist Hamsini Bijlani identify a lizard caught as part of research measuring the impacts of fire on wildlife in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> Hamsini studied ecology in India before completing her training in Australia.
>
> But it was while interning in the Kimberley that she became enthralled by Australia's vast wild places and working with Indigenous people.
>
> Karajarri Ranger Julian Nagomara holds a spiny-tailed gecko, caught for research on the impacts of fire on wildlife in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> "We've had the rangers come through and do cool burns in some of our sites so that we can compare with the areas that have been burnt by large, hot wildfires late in the dry season," she says.
>
> A desert rainbow-skink caught by the Karajarri Rangers in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> "So far, the results of our surveys are showing that different species, to some extent, do prefer vegetation of different fire ages."
>
> After seeing the level of intricate fire scars in the old photographs, it is perhaps unsurprising that the scientists are finding that the many different types of plants and animals prefer different areas depending on how recently they were burnt.
>
> "We're seeing the importance of maintaining a diversity of different fire ages in an area, because some animals really do like that long, unburnt stuff, but some animals might like stuff that was burnt a few years ago," Hamsini says.
>
> "So you don't want to just burn everything; you want to have a diversity of different fire ages, and that's exactly what the Karajarri rangers are working to do."
>
> Large golden orb weaving spiders living on strong webs built between trees are common in the western Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> A fat-tailed gecko runs across the chest of a Karajarri Ranger, caught as part of their research on the impacts of fire on wildlife in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> Desert beauties
> Driving and walking across the landscape you often capture a glimpse of an unidentified creature scuttling under a clump of spinifex or disappearing down a burrow.
>
> But it's only when you see the fine detail of the snakes, lizards, native mice and marsupials in the hand of a ranger that you can appreciate the beauty and diversity of life in the desert.
>
> A leopard skink is measured for Karajarri Rangers' research on the impacts of fire on wildlife in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> "It's called a leopard skink, and you can see plenty of spots on him," Bayo says, measuring a small lizard with red scales, spotted in black and white.
>
> "The ones like this little fella that stay underground, this tells us that they sort of enjoy the fire, they can hide from it and it makes it easier for them for the hunting."
>
> Other members of the desert community are much more challenging to distinguish.
>
> A native delicate mouse, caught by the Karajarri Rangers in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> A delicate mouse can be mistaken for a lesser hairy-footed dunnart, a marsupial, by the uninitiated.
>
> Karajarri head ranger Braedan 'Bayo' Taylor examines a small lizard with a hand lens to identify the species.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> But even Bayo has to use a magnifying lens to check which species of near-legless lizard, called sand sliders, he has caught.
>
> "We're just checking what species we've got here, because it might be a different species," he says.
>
> Legless lizards are more commonly caught than snakes by Karajarri Rangers for their research on the impacts of fire on wildlife in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> "You tell by the scale on the top of the eyelid — if you've got two it's a southern sand slider; if it's just one, it's northern."
>
> Back to country
> Helicopters, incendiaries, vehicle-mounted fire igniters, satellite monitoring and GIS planning.
>
> You might think that with the use of all that that it would be simple for the rangers to replicate the burning patterns produced by Aboriginal people living a traditional life in the desert.
>
> But the reality is that modern technology struggles to reproduce the burning born of an intimate relationship the people living on the land had with fire and the wildlife shaped by it.
>
> The intricate fire scars in the old photographs show vast areas of what is now almost inaccessible country being constantly curated with fire.
>
> A helicopter takes off in the Great Sandy Desert to drop incendiaries as part of a controlled burning program for the Karajarri Rangers.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> Kamahl Bangu and Courtney Brown identify lizards caught as part of the Karajarri Rangers' research on the impacts of fire on wildlife in the Great Sandy Desert.(ABC Kimberley: Ben Collins)
> The rangers' work is only just beginning.(ABC Kimberley: Andrew Seabourne)
> "It's people living on country doing burning every single day as they move along, as opposed to now where people live in set communities and go out to work in certain areas and then have to travel back to their homes," Mr Blackwood says.
>
> "The difference between living styles between then and now make it almost impossible to get back to traditional burning."
>
> While the time of Karajarri people living full time in the Great Sandy Desert may have passed, after just seven years the rangers have shown how modern fire management can begin to protect wildlife and maintain a cultural connection to the land.
>
> And they have provided some scientific evidence of how a continuing connection to country can protect threatened species.
>
> "One of the things we've talked about with rangers and the old people in Bidyadanga is opening up access to the desert, so people can just get in their car and have a reasonably good road," Ewan says.
>
> "Getting more Karajarri people back into the desert with your family to go camping, hunting and enjoy the place.
>
> "Part of everyday life is hunting, and with hunting comes fire."
>
> While the old photographs may show how much more work is needed, Bayo is filled with satisfaction that he and his fellow rangers have made a start on continuing their ancestors' ancient work.
>
> "It's a really good feeling, it just tells me that we're looking after the country all right," he says.
>
> "We're catching our animals and they're looking good, healthy, and got a lot of area to move around — it's just good."
>
> Credits
> Reporter: Ben Collins
>
> Photography: Ben Collins & Andrew Seabourne
>
> Videography: Andrew Seabourne
>
> Digital producer: Daniel Franklin
>
> Connect with ABC News
> ABC Help
> © 2021 ABC
> Get the ABC News app

Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> BTW, the "trick" for the above puzzle is that you burn one tree after
> the other. It may be true that it takes 25 years for a tree to grow, but
> hey, 250 trees (actually, 250,000 trees, also) can grow in a matter of
> 25 years, if they don't grow one after the other, :) .

The problem is that you have them growing all these trees tens of
thousands of years prior to agriculture.

So they can't grow wheat but they can grow trees?

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/650852701230514176

On 12.5.2021. 7:22, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>
>> BTW, the "trick" for the above puzzle is that you burn one tree after
>> the other. It may be true that it takes 25 years for a tree to grow, but
>> hey, 250 trees (actually, 250,000 trees, also) can grow in a matter of
>> 25 years, if they don't grow one after the other, :) .
>
> The problem is that you have them growing all these trees tens of
> thousands of years prior to agriculture.
>
> So they can't grow wheat but they can grow trees?

Wheat is difficult to grow. Trees? My step-nephew's son hit some
walnut from their balcony onto my part of the yard. And look at that,
now I have a walnut tree in my yard. No plowing needed, no need to weed,
no sparge, it just grew, all by itself. I would be surprised if people
didn't grow fruit trees, deliberately, for the last 10 my.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On Wednesday, May 12, 2021 at 3:48:59 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 12.5.2021. 7:22, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> > Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >
> >> BTW, the "trick" for the above puzzle is that you burn one tree after
> >> the other. It may be true that it takes 25 years for a tree to grow, but
> >> hey, 250 trees (actually, 250,000 trees, also) can grow in a matter of
> >> 25 years, if they don't grow one after the other, :) .
> >
> > The problem is that you have them growing all these trees tens of
> > thousands of years prior to agriculture.
> >
> > So they can't grow wheat but they can grow trees?
> Wheat is difficult to grow. Trees? My step-nephew's son hit some
> walnut from their balcony onto my part of the yard. And look at that,
> now I have a walnut tree in my yard. No plowing needed, no need to weed,
> no sparge, it just grew, all by itself. I would be surprised if people
> didn't grow fruit trees, deliberately, for the last 10 my.
>
> --
> https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
> human-e...@googlegroups.com

https://beerandbrewing.com/lautering-and-sparging/
Sparge: sprinkle

On 12.5.2021. 10:09, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 12, 2021 at 3:48:59 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 12.5.2021. 7:22, I Envy JTEM wrote:
>>> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> BTW, the "trick" for the above puzzle is that you burn one tree after
>>>> the other. It may be true that it takes 25 years for a tree to grow, but
>>>> hey, 250 trees (actually, 250,000 trees, also) can grow in a matter of
>>>> 25 years, if they don't grow one after the other, :) .
>>>
>>> The problem is that you have them growing all these trees tens of
>>> thousands of years prior to agriculture.
>>>
>>> So they can't grow wheat but they can grow trees?
>> Wheat is difficult to grow. Trees? My step-nephew's son hit some
>> walnut from their balcony onto my part of the yard. And look at that,
>> now I have a walnut tree in my yard. No plowing needed, no need to weed,
>> no sparge, it just grew, all by itself. I would be surprised if people
>> didn't grow fruit trees, deliberately, for the last 10 my.
>
> https://beerandbrewing.com/lautering-and-sparging/
> Sparge: sprinkle

Ah, thanks.
I will not remember it (or, who knows... ), but thanks, anyway, :) .
I was having trouble to find all those words for those agricultural
works, :) .

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

On Wednesday, May 12, 2021 at 5:24:30 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 12.5.2021. 10:09, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 12, 2021 at 3:48:59 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >> On 12.5.2021. 7:22, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> >>> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> >>>> BTW, the "trick" for the above puzzle is that you burn one tree after
> >>>> the other. It may be true that it takes 25 years for a tree to grow, but
> >>>> hey, 250 trees (actually, 250,000 trees, also) can grow in a matter of
> >>>> 25 years, if they don't grow one after the other, :) .
> >>>
> >>> The problem is that you have them growing all these trees tens of
> >>> thousands of years prior to agriculture.
> >>>
> >>> So they can't grow wheat but they can grow trees?
> >> Wheat is difficult to grow. Trees? My step-nephew's son hit some
> >> walnut from their balcony onto my part of the yard. And look at that,
> >> now I have a walnut tree in my yard. No plowing needed, no need to weed,
> >> no sparge, it just grew, all by itself. I would be surprised if people
> >> didn't grow fruit trees, deliberately, for the last 10 my.
> >
> > https://beerandbrewing.com/lautering-and-sparging/
> > Sparge: sprinkle
>
> Ah, thanks.
> I will not remember it (or, who knows... ), but thanks, anyway, :) .
> I was having trouble to find all those words for those agricultural
> works, :) .
>
> --
> https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
> human-e...@googlegroups.com
-

New word for me, I never heard if it before.

Sparge: sprinkle ~ lluvia/shower/sieve, to introduce bubbles to water, from spargere@Ltn
https://beerandbrewing.com/lautering-and-sparging/

Borrowed from Middle French espargier, from Latin spargō (whence English sparse), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)pregʰ- (“to scatter, to jerk”).
Kin: particulates, portion, sparks, spatter, scatter, splash, splatter, disperse; paddle-spade effects

Xyuambuatlachyah (XY)uamB(h)UA(tl)ACHYA? Broadcast\disperse seed sparsely/sparklely, spew, spank

To use hand like a paddle to disperse seeds or splash bubbles in water.

Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> Wheat is difficult to grow. Trees? My step-nephew's son hit some
> walnut from their balcony onto my part of the yard. And look at that,
> now I have a walnut tree in my yard. No plowing needed, no need to weed,
> no sparge, it just grew, all by itself. I would be surprised if people
> didn't grow fruit trees, deliberately, for the last 10 my.

*Sigh*

Kind of pointless discussing anything with a guy who thinks they were
planting orchards in pre history, pre Hss times...

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/650990106268811264

On Wednesday 12 May 2021 at 17:51:30 UTC+1, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> Mario Petrinovic wrote:

>> Wheat is difficult to grow. Trees? My step-nephew's son hit some
>> walnut from their balcony onto my part of the yard. And look at that,
>> now I have a walnut tree in my yard. No plowing needed, no need to weed,
>> no sparge, it just grew, all by itself. I would be surprised if people
>> didn't grow fruit trees, deliberately, for the last 10 my.
>
> *Sigh*
>
> Kind of pointless discussing anything with a guy who thinks they were
> planting orchards in pre history, pre Hss times...

It's easy to plant an orchard around the place
where you live. You do it without thinking.
Eat the fruit, and defecate a short distance
from your abode. Maybe even bury the
faeces. In a few generations, there'll be
mostly fruit trees around the settlement.

On 12.5.2021. 19:42, Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 May 2021 at 17:51:30 UTC+1, I Envy JTEM wrote:
>> Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> Wheat is difficult to grow. Trees? My step-nephew's son hit some
>>> walnut from their balcony onto my part of the yard. And look at that,
>>> now I have a walnut tree in my yard. No plowing needed, no need to weed,
>>> no sparge, it just grew, all by itself. I would be surprised if people
>>> didn't grow fruit trees, deliberately, for the last 10 my.
>>
>> *Sigh*
>>
>> Kind of pointless discussing anything with a guy who thinks they were
>> planting orchards in pre history, pre Hss times...
>
> It's easy to plant an orchard around the place
> where you live. You do it without thinking.
> Eat the fruit, and defecate a short distance
> from your abode. Maybe even bury the
> faeces. In a few generations, there'll be
> mostly fruit trees around the settlement.

Or, take a look at women, and their love for roses and rose color.
Bring your women that flower, she will plant it around where she lives.
Those flowers have thorns. Even today African tribes make similar kind
of fences around their villages to protect them from lions. Ever heard
of a story about lion who had thorn in his paw?
In short, thanks to this love for roses, we probably lived in a rose
garden. Yes, all this isn't just a coincidence, it has sense, and this
sense isn't a coincidence.

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

Paul Crowley wrote:

> It's easy to plant an orchard around the place

Okay. They didn't plant any orchards. The idea is ridiculous.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/650993361501782017

On 13.5.2021. 3:53, I Envy JTEM wrote:
> Paul Crowley wrote:
>> It's easy to plant an orchard around the place
>
> Okay. They didn't plant any orchards. The idea is ridiculous.

Frankly, I am starting to get fed up by you. Whole the time you are
talking about your fairy tales, which are not in tune with any evidence,
and plus, you are claiming that all the evidence is wrong.
Listen now, you have bipedals, us. We have hands (I hope you have), we
take seed (with hands), and we plant it (with hands). The end of story.
We re doing it now, we were doing it before. 10 mya ago we were also
bipedals, we also had hands.
What's so wrong with you (are you a gay, lol?)?

--
https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
human-evolution@googlegroups.com

Mario Petrinovic wrote:

> I Envy JTEM wrote:
> > Okay. They didn't plant any orchards. The idea is ridiculous.

> Frankly, I am starting to get fed up by you.

Okay. They still didn't have any orchards. The idea is patently ridiculous.

We're talking well before the invention of agriculture or settlements!

> Whole the time you are talking about your fairy tales

Well I for one am glad that you said this in defense of orchards, so that
none of the irony was lost...

P.S. "Evidence" is never wrong, assuming it exists, people are. If you need
me to be explicit, though we both know you won't deal with it, it all comes
down to the a-priori assumptions. If you assume Out of Africa purity, if
you assume a linear model for evolution, if you assume all the savanna
nonsense and a molecular clock, it never matters what the evidence is.
You're simply going to interpret it within the context of your ignorance.

Most of my posts are actually addressing this problem, if you're interested
in the subtext... which you are not. When I'm not identifying & attacking an
a-priori assumption I'm expressing ideas that reject them... "Outside the
Box," if you will. If this upsets you in any way then I am glad.

It means I succeeded.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/110584004903