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tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?Ricky
`* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?Commander Kinsey
 +* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?whit3rd
 |`* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?Commander Kinsey
 | `* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?whit3rd
 |  `* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?Commander Kinsey
 |   `- Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?whit3rd
 `* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?piglet
  +* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?Ricky
  |+- Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?piglet
  |`* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?Commander Kinsey
  | `* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?piglet
  |  +- Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?Phil Hobbs
  |  `- Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?Commander Kinsey
  `* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?Commander Kinsey
   `* Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?piglet
    `- Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?Commander Kinsey

1
Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<6d9bdfa0-01bc-4559-b6d4-da01180de04dn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Ricky)
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 by: Ricky - Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:45 UTC

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
> >> >
> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
> >> >>
> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C#
> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
> >> >> Z80 board.
> >> >
> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
> >> >
> >> > soldering....
> >> > :-)
> >
> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
> >
> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.

It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare your ignorance for all to see.

It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done according to the guidelines.

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<op.1kt8h5gxmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=94905&group=sci.electronics.design#94905

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
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 by: Commander Kinsey - Mon, 18 Apr 2022 20:28 UTC

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
>> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened rbowman
>> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language 'python' or so?
>> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is C/C++/C#
>> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when I get
>> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a working
>> >> >> Z80 board.
>> >> >
>> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
>> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>> >> >
>> >> > soldering....
>> >> > :-)
>> >
>> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
>> >
>> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
>
> It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare your ignorance for all to see.
>
> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done according to the guidelines.

Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<8d9d5913-c12d-4e1c-b15c-9c4980613598n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 02:51 UTC

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 1:28:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

> >> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
> >> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
> >
> > It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare your ignorance for all to see.
> >
> > It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done according to the guidelines.
> Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

Wrong. Crimping and welding are both entirely acceptable for high reliability,
with solder just a little behind. Wire-wrap is a variable entity, because there's lots of
wire and lots of posts, and some combinations are just dandy, like crimping.

A PC power supply is always two or more circuit boards, because the required
components aren't reliably joined under ONE solder temperature profile, you gotta
use two or more different soldering methods to mass produce 'em. Solder,
when it works, is cheap, not excessively reliable.

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<t3lil0$d1u$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
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 by: piglet - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 05:51 UTC

On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
>>> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
>>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
>>> rbowman
>>> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
>>> 'python' or so?
>>> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
>>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
>>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
>>> C/C++/C#
>>> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
>>> I get
>>> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
>>> working
>>> >> >> Z80 board.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
>>> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>> >> >
>>> >> > soldering....
>>> >> > :-)
>>> >
>>> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
>>> >
>>> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things
>>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
>>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
>>
>> It is one thing to be ignorant.  It is another to publicly declare
>> your ignorance for all to see.
>>
>> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
>> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
>> according to the guidelines.
>
> Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.

Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
after.

piglet

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<338ca3e3-a1cd-4a29-9784-9a0e3c13b7can@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Ricky)
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 by: Ricky - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:11 UTC

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
> > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
> >>> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
> >>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
> >>> rbowman
> >>> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >>> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
> >>> 'python' or so?
> >>> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
> >>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
> >>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
> >>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
> >>> >> >>
> >>> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
> >>> C/C++/C#
> >>> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
> >>> I get
> >>> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
> >>> working
> >>> >> >> Z80 board.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
> >>> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > soldering....
> >>> >> > :-)
> >>> >
> >>> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
> >>> >
> >>> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
> >>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things
> >>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
> >>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
> >>
> >> It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
> >> your ignorance for all to see.
> >>
> >> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
> >> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
> >> according to the guidelines.
> >
> > Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
> Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
> tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
> and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
> wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
> after.

Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions? While wire wrap is a solid connection on earth, I would be surprised that it survived the vibration tests. I suppose a couple turns of insulation would prevent the first bite into the wire from braking. I've seen that happen on wire wrap when the wire was not inserted in the tool properly. The whole thing is pretty heavy too. I've got an old wire wrap board from one of the big name prototype board makers (I can't recall the name). It has a bunch of pins for mounting 16 pin chips (and a few 14 pin I think) with power and ground already connected. I don't recall if they had bypass caps or not. The board is rather thick to hold the pins solidly. Between the pins and the board, it weighs a ton.

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<t3llqb$upj$1@dont-email.me>

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From: erichpwa...@hotmail.com (piglet)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:45:28 +0100
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 by: piglet - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:45 UTC

On 19/04/2022 07:11, Ricky wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
>>> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
>>>>>> Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
>>>>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
>>>>> rbowman
>>>>>>>> <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
>>>>> 'python' or so?
>>>>>>>>>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
>>>>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
>>>>>>>>>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>>>>>>>>>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
>>>>> C/C++/C#
>>>>>>>>> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
>>>>> I get
>>>>>>>>> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>> Z80 board.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
>>>>>>>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> soldering....
>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>>>>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things
>>>>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
>>>>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
>>>>
>>>> It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
>>>> your ignorance for all to see.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
>>>> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
>>>> according to the guidelines.
>>>
>>> Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
>> Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
>> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
>> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
>> tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
>> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
>> and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
>> wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
>> after.
>
> Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions? While wire wrap is a solid connection on earth, I would be surprised that it survived the vibration tests. I suppose a couple turns of insulation would prevent the first bite into the wire from braking. I've seen that happen on wire wrap when the wire was not inserted in the tool properly. The whole thing is pretty heavy too. I've got an old wire wrap board from one of the big name prototype board makers (I can't recall the name). It has a bunch of pins for mounting 16 pin chips (and a few 14 pin I think) with power and ground already connected. I don't recall if they had bypass caps or not. The board is rather thick to hold the pins solidly. Between the pins and the board, it weighs a ton.
>

Yep, for example the Apollo Guidance Computer backplanes. I saw a
magazine article circa 1972-3 on the deep space interplantery missions,
eg. mariner,pioneer,voyager and there was a photo of the ww-boards
undergoing final visual inspection.

Of course modified wrap was used, never seen regular wrap in real life
for exactly the reasons you gave.

piglet

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<op.1kvsz2sdmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 16:49 UTC

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 03:51:35 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 1:28:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> >> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>> >> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
>> >
>> > It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare your ignorance for all to see.
>> >
>> > It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done according to the guidelines.
>> Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
>
> Wrong. Crimping and welding are both entirely acceptable for high reliability,
> with solder just a little behind. Wire-wrap is a variable entity, because there's lots of
> wire and lots of posts, and some combinations are just dandy, like crimping.

You have to hope those two pieces of metal are always in contact. I don't with solder, because they are "the same" piece of metal.

Plus if you get a bit of corrosion, you get a voltage drop. You even get that in high current plugs - a 13A mains plug or a 30A GPU power plug.

> A PC power supply is always two or more circuit boards, because the required
> components aren't reliably joined under ONE solder temperature profile, you gotta
> use two or more different soldering methods to mass produce 'em. Solder,
> when it works, is cheap, not excessively reliable.

Just had a look inside one, just one circuit board. Only the odd large component isn't on the board and is soldered on by wires.

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<op.1kvtdyqnmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
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 by: Commander Kinsey - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 16:57 UTC

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:11:53 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
>> > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
>> >>> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
>> >>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
>> >>> rbowman
>> >>> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> >>> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
>> >>> 'python' or so?
>> >>> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
>> >>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
>> >>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>> >>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>> >>> >> >>
>> >>> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
>> >>> C/C++/C#
>> >>> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
>> >>> I get
>> >>> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
>> >>> working
>> >>> >> >> Z80 board.
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
>> >>> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>> >>> >> >
>> >>> >> > soldering....
>> >>> >> > :-)
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>> >>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things
>> >>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
>> >>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
>> >>
>> >> It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
>> >> your ignorance for all to see.
>> >>
>> >> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
>> >> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
>> >> according to the guidelines.
>> >
>> > Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
>> Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
>> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
>> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
>> tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
>> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
>> and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
>> wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
>> after.
>
> Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions?

Only because soldering hadn't been invented. Look in your stereo, now look in one from 40 years ago. They wouldn't change if it wasn't better.

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<op.1kvtfhlnmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 16:58 UTC

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:51:25 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
>>>> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
>>>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
>>>> rbowman
>>>> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
>>>> 'python' or so?
>>>> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
>>>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
>>>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>>>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
>>>> C/C++/C#
>>>> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
>>>> I get
>>>> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
>>>> working
>>>> >> >> Z80 board.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
>>>> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > soldering....
>>>> >> > :-)
>>>> >
>>>> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
>>>> >
>>>> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>>>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things
>>>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
>>>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
>>>
>>> It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
>>> your ignorance for all to see.
>>>
>>> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
>>> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
>>> according to the guidelines.

And very time consuming.

>> Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
>
> Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
> tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
> and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
> wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
> after.

And you just hope they don't waggle loose or change size a bit under temperature and lose that tension.

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<t3mtqj$9lh$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=95002&group=sci.electronics.design#95002

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
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From: erichpwa...@hotmail.com (piglet)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:08:17 +0100
Organization: A patent noisesome spinner
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 by: piglet - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:08 UTC

On 19/04/2022 17:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:51:25 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
>>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
>>>>> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
>>>>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
>>>>> rbowman
>>>>> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
>>>>> 'python' or so?
>>>>> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
>>>>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
>>>>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>>>>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
>>>>> C/C++/C#
>>>>> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
>>>>> I get
>>>>> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
>>>>> working
>>>>> >> >> Z80 board.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
>>>>> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > soldering....
>>>>> >> > :-)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>>>>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things
>>>>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
>>>>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
>>>>
>>>> It is one thing to be ignorant.  It is another to publicly declare
>>>> your ignorance for all to see.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
>>>> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
>>>> according to the guidelines.
>
> And very time consuming.
>
>>> Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
>>
>> Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
>> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
>> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
>> tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
>> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
>> and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
>> wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
>> after.
>
> And you just hope they don't waggle loose or change size a bit under
> temperature and lose that tension.

Very true however solder joint fatigue and cracking over extreme
temperature cycling was an even more serious problem. Back in the day
many studies placed wire wrap well ahead of solder for reliability. One
of the (few) benefits of RoHS is that lead free solders tend to perform
better over extreme thermal cycling.

piglet

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<t3mugq$eto$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=95003&group=sci.electronics.design#95003

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From: erichpwa...@hotmail.com (piglet)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:20:10 +0100
Organization: A patent noisesome spinner
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 by: piglet - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:20 UTC

On 19/04/2022 17:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:11:53 +0100, Ricky
> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com
>> wrote:
>>> On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
>>> > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey
>>> wrote:
>>> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
>>> >>> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> >>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
>>> >>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
>>> >>> rbowman
>>> >>> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> >>> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
>>> >>> 'python' or so?
>>> >>> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a
>>> lot
>>> >>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
>>> >>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>>> >>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>>> >>> >> >>
>>> >>> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day
>>> job is
>>> >>> C/C++/C#
>>> >>> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but
>>> when
>>> >>> I get
>>> >>> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
>>> >>> working
>>> >>> >> >> Z80 board.
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
>>> >>> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>> >>> >> >
>>> >>> >> > soldering....
>>> >>> >> > :-)
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>>> >>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two
>>> things
>>> >>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
>>> >>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
>>> >>
>>> >> It is one thing to be ignorant.  It is another to publicly declare
>>> >> your ignorance for all to see.
>>> >>
>>> >> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research
>>> and
>>> >> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
>>> >> according to the guidelines.
>>> >
>>> > Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
>>> Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
>>> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
>>> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
>>> tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
>>> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
>>> and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
>>> wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
>>> after.
>>
>> Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions?
>
> Only because soldering hadn't been invented.  Look in your stereo, now
> look in one from 40 years ago.  They wouldn't change if it wasn't better.

There is no mass wrapping system like there is flow or wave soldering so
wrapping was always a niche technique not much seen in the mass market.

piglet

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<9c6d27a6-c73e-e11b-cfaf-328e9833d2f0@electrooptical.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=95013&group=sci.electronics.design#95013

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:21:19 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:21 UTC

piglet wrote:
> On 19/04/2022 17:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:11:53 +0100, Ricky
>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
>>>> > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles
>>>> <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
>>>> >>> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
>>>> >>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
>>>> >>> rbowman
>>>> >>> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>> >>> >> >
>>>> >>> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> >>> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake
>>>> language
>>>> >>> 'python' or so?
>>>> >>> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is
>>>> a lot
>>>> >>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
>>>> >>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>>>> >>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>>>> >>> >> >>
>>>> >>> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day
>>>> job is
>>>> >>> C/C++/C#
>>>> >>> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but
>>>> when
>>>> >>> I get
>>>> >>> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap
>>>> up a
>>>> >>> working
>>>> >>> >> >> Z80 board.
>>>> >>> >> >
>>>> >>> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
>>>> >>> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>> >>> >> >
>>>> >>> >> > soldering....
>>>> >>> >> > :-)
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>>>> >>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two
>>>> things
>>>> >>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's
>>>> the
>>>> >>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the
>>>> best.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It is one thing to be ignorant.  It is another to publicly declare
>>>> >> your ignorance for all to see.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little
>>>> research and
>>>> >> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
>>>> >> according to the guidelines.
>>>> >
>>>> > Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
>>>> Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
>>>> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
>>>> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
>>>> tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
>>>> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
>>>> and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
>>>> wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
>>>> after.
>>>
>>> Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions?
>>
>> Only because soldering hadn't been invented.  Look in your stereo, now
>> look in one from 40 years ago.  They wouldn't change if it wasn't better.
>
> There is no mass wrapping system like there is flow or wave soldering so
> wrapping was always a niche technique not much seen in the mass market.
>
> piglet
>

When I was a grad student at Ginzton Lab, Grinnell Systems donated a
brand new video processor to our group. It was about a 5-foot rack,
with an all-wirewrap backplane. Pretty impressive monstrosity at the
time (1984ish).

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<op.1kvz8nk9mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=95015&group=sci.electronics.design#95015

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
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 by: Commander Kinsey - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:25 UTC

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:08:17 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 19/04/2022 17:58, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 06:51:25 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
>>>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
>>>>>> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
>>>>>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
>>>>>> rbowman
>>>>>> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
>>>>>> 'python' or so?
>>>>>> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a lot
>>>>>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
>>>>>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>>>>>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day job is
>>>>>> C/C++/C#
>>>>>> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but when
>>>>>> I get
>>>>>> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
>>>>>> working
>>>>>> >> >> Z80 board.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
>>>>>> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > soldering....
>>>>>> >> > :-)
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>>>>>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two things
>>>>>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
>>>>>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
>>>>> your ignorance for all to see.
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research and
>>>>> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
>>>>> according to the guidelines.
>>
>> And very time consuming.
>>
>>>> Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
>>>
>>> Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
>>> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
>>> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
>>> tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
>>> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
>>> and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
>>> wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
>>> after.
>>
>> And you just hope they don't waggle loose or change size a bit under
>> temperature and lose that tension.
>
> Very true however solder joint fatigue and cracking over extreme
> temperature cycling was an even more serious problem. Back in the day
> many studies placed wire wrap well ahead of solder for reliability. One
> of the (few) benefits of RoHS is that lead free solders tend to perform
> better over extreme thermal cycling.

If you have something in the centre of the sun, maybe so. Still, why not wrap then solder?

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<op.1kvz9xc4mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
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 by: Commander Kinsey - Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:26 UTC

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:20:10 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 19/04/2022 17:57, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 07:11:53 +0100, Ricky
>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-4, erichp...@hotmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 18/04/2022 21:28, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 18:45:36 +0100, Ricky
>>>> > <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 12:27:14 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 17:02:18 +0100, charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> > In article <op.1kts3...@ryzen.lan>,
>>>> >>> > Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:02:11 +0100, Jan Panteltje
>>>> >>> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >> > On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2022 14:08:22 -0600) it happened
>>>> >>> rbowman
>>>> >>> >> > <bow...@montana.com> wrote in <jc3adk...@mid.individual.net>:
>>>> >>> >> >
>>>> >>> >> >> On 04/17/2022 10:51 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>> >>> >> >>> What's a modern programmer? One that uses that snake language
>>>> >>> 'python' or so?
>>>> >>> >> >>> I like to code in asm for Microchip PIC micros, there is a
>>>> lot
>>>> >>> you can do with 256 bytes RAM and 16 kB ROM.
>>>> >>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/scope_pic/
>>>> >>> >> >>> http://panteltje.com/panteltje/pic/index.html
>>>> >>> >> >>
>>>> >>> >> >> While I prefer the AVR series I definitely agree. My day
>>>> job is
>>>> >>> C/C++/C#
>>>> >>> >> >> and increasingly JavaScript with a new Angular product but
>>>> when
>>>> >>> I get
>>>> >>> >> >> home I like to keep in simple like when I could wire-wrap up a
>>>> >>> working
>>>> >>> >> >> Z80 board.
>>>> >>> >> >
>>>> >>> >> > Have dot doen wirewrap in ages...
>>>> >>> >> > http://panteltje.com/panteltje/raspberry_pi_dvb-s_transmitter/
>>>> >>> >> >
>>>> >>> >> > soldering....
>>>> >>> >> > :-)
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >> Isn't wirewrap what amateurs do that can't solder?
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Wirewrap used to be the standard for GPO wiring blocks.
>>>> >>> Which is why they went wrong so often. Yeah lets just hope two
>>>> things
>>>> >>> touching with no solder or pressure just happen to conduct. It's the
>>>> >>> way kids make stuff. Twist the wires together and hope for the best.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It is one thing to be ignorant. It is another to publicly declare
>>>> >> your ignorance for all to see.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It doesn't take much effort at all for you to do a little research
>>>> and
>>>> >> find that wirewrap is actually a highly reliable technique if done
>>>> >> according to the guidelines.
>>>> >
>>>> > Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
>>>> Except wire wrap isn't just touching. The posts are square and the wire
>>>> wrapped under tension so the post corners bite deeply into the wire and
>>>> the torque built up in the post maintains constant high pressure gas
>>>> tight cold weld contacts. Dozens of them all in parallel. Wire wrapping
>>>> can be more reliable than soldering over temperature cycling. Voyager
>>>> and Apollo used a lot of wire wrap. And it is very quick - I used to
>>>> wire wrap prototypes faster than I could solder and needs no defluxing
>>>> after.
>>>
>>> Are you saying NASA flew wire wrap in space missions?
>>
>> Only because soldering hadn't been invented. Look in your stereo, now
>> look in one from 40 years ago. They wouldn't change if it wasn't better.
>
> There is no mass wrapping system like there is flow or wave soldering so
> wrapping was always a niche technique not much seen in the mass market.

Yeah we don't hand carve car chassises any more either.

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Thu, 21 Apr 2022 09:15 UTC

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 9:49:13 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 03:51:35 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 1:28:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:

> >> Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
> >
> > Wrong. Crimping and welding are both entirely acceptable for high reliability,
> > with solder just a little behind. Wire-wrap is a variable entity, because there's lots of
> > wire and lots of posts, and some combinations are just dandy, like crimping.

> You have to hope those two pieces of metal are always in contact. I don't with solder, because they are "the same" piece of metal.

Crimping is done with metals that, unlike solder, don't cold-flow. Mil-spec
crimps don't fail. There's a lot of crimped wiring in an airplane.

> > A PC power supply is always two or more circuit boards, because the required
> > components aren't reliably joined under ONE solder temperature profile, you gotta
> > use two or more different soldering methods to mass produce 'em. Solder,
> > when it works, is cheap, not excessively reliable.

> Just had a look inside one, just one circuit board. Only the odd large component isn't on the board and is soldered on by wires.

Look inside a modern one; bear in mind, only wave solder is suitable for making all the DC power wire
connections, and then only with significant touchup afterward; one generally doesn't wave solder
doublesided or surface mount.

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

<op.1k5knhbwmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 23:24 UTC

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 10:15:33 +0100, whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 9:49:13 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 03:51:35 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 1:28:51 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>
>> >> Touching things cannot be as good as welded together things.
>> >
>> > Wrong. Crimping and welding are both entirely acceptable for high reliability,
>> > with solder just a little behind. Wire-wrap is a variable entity, because there's lots of
>> > wire and lots of posts, and some combinations are just dandy, like crimping.
>
>> You have to hope those two pieces of metal are always in contact. I don't with solder, because they are "the same" piece of metal.
>
> Crimping is done with metals that, unlike solder, don't cold-flow. Mil-spec
> crimps don't fail. There's a lot of crimped wiring in an airplane.

Yeah squeeze it and hope. Why not just use metals that do solder? Only time I've seen non-solderable metal was on a piece of shit overpriced Sennheiser headphones.

>> > A PC power supply is always two or more circuit boards, because the required
>> > components aren't reliably joined under ONE solder temperature profile, you gotta
>> > use two or more different soldering methods to mass produce 'em. Solder,
>> > when it works, is cheap, not excessively reliable.
>
>> Just had a look inside one, just one circuit board. Only the odd large component isn't on the board and is soldered on by wires.
>
> Look inside a modern one;

It is modern.

> bear in mind, only wave solder is suitable for making all the DC power wire connections,

I don't call wires components.

> and then only with significant touchup afterward; one generally doesn't wave solder doublesided or surface mount.

How are computer MBs done then?

Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?

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Subject: Re: Where can I buy a large analogue meter?
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:05 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 4:24:52 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 10:15:33 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > bear in mind, only wave solder is suitable for making all the DC power wire connections,
>
> I don't call wires components.
>
> > and then only with significant touchup afterward; one generally doesn't wave solder doublesided or surface mount.
>
> How are computer MBs done then?

Glue for doublesided, and stencil-printed solder paste, with a toaster-oven to reflow the solder.
And, dozens of variations. Sometimes, high-temp solder creates a subassembly, which is
not disturbed by later low-melting solder heating, so two or more different solder operations is kinda
normal.

1
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rocksolid light 0.9.7
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