OWM/ape split (± 25 Ma? = incipient Red Sea?):
early-Miocene “apes” colonized flooded/coastal forests –> aquarboreal:
large body, broad sternum-thorax-pelvis, central=vertical spine, tail loss, long arms, thick enamel...

Lesser/great ape split (± 20 Ma? Red Sea?):
hylobatids went East along the Indian Ocean –> SE.Asia.

Hominid/pongid split (± 15 Ma? = Mesopotamian Seaway closure?):
- pongids went East along the Indian Ocean –> S.Asia sivapiths, Pongo...
- hominids went West along the Mediterranean=Tethys Sea, rivers, lakes:
dryopiths, Trachilos, Oreopithecus ...

Hominids also colonized the Red Sea & Gulf, and split (± 8 Ma?):
Gorilla followed the Rift –> Praeanthropus afarensis–boisei....
from aquarboreal to tropical forest herbivore:
iliac elongation, knuckle-walking, thinner enamel, longer canines...
Homo–Pan split (± 5 Ma?) in the Gulf or E.African coast into
- Pan –> Australopith.africanus–robustus... in S-Africa
from aquarboreal to tropical forest frugivore, partly // Gorilla:
higher pelvis, KWing, very long arms,
- Homo along the Indian Ocean –> littoral (± 2 Ma?): diving for shellfish:
closed tooth-row, incisiform canines, pachyosteosclerosis, ear exostoses, platycephaly, platymeria, island fossils, stone tools...

Op zondag 23 mei 2021 om 15:17:14 UTC+2 schreef littor...@gmail.com:

(sorry, posted too early: corrected version)

OWM/ape split (± 25 Ma? = incipient Red Sea?):
early-Miocene "apes" colonized flooded/coastal forests, wading bipedally & climbing arms overhead, google "aquarboreal":
large body, long arms, central=vertical spine, very broad sternum-thorax-pelvis, tail loss, thick enamel...

Lesser/great ape split (± 20 Ma? Red Sea?):
hylobatids went East along the Indian Ocean to SE.Asia, later became smaller & faster brachiating gibbons & siamang.

Hominid/pongid split (± 15 Ma? = Mesopotamian Seaway closure?):
- pongids went East along the Indian Ocean to S.Asia: sivapiths, Pongo orangutans...
- hominids went West along the Medit.=Tethys Sea, rivers, lakes: dryopiths, Trachilos, Oreopithecus ...

Hominids in the Red Sea or Gulf split (± 8 Ma?) into Gorilla & Homo-Pan:
Gorilla followed the Rift –> Praeanthropus afarensis–boisei....
evolved from aquarboreal predom.herbivore (sedges...) to tropical forest:
iliac elongation, knuckle-walking, thinner enamel, longer canines...
-Hum.Evol.9:121-139, 1994 "Australopithecines: ancestors of the African apes?"
-Hum.Evol.11:35-41, 1996 "Morphological distance between australopithecine, human and ape skulls"
(google "ape human evolution made easy PPT").
Homo & Pan split (± 5 Ma?) in the Gulf or E.African coast into
- Pan –> Australopith.africanus–robustus... in S-Africa (see Hum.Evol.papers):
evolved from aquarboreal (waterlilies...) to tropical forest frugivore, partly // Gorilla:
higher pelvis, KWing, very long arms, longer canines...
- Homo along the Indian Ocean became littoral (± 2 Ma?): diving for shellfish:
hyoidal descent, shorter muzzle, closed tooth-row & incisiform canines (suction feeding), platycephaly, platymeria, pachy-osteo-sclerosis & ear exostoses (slow-shallow diving), very large brain, island fossils (Flores...), stone tools...
Archaic Homo evolved mid/later-Pleistocene into wading-walking H.sapiens:
loss of POS, very long legs, loss of supra-orbital torus, high forehead, smaller piriform aperture...

Conclusions:
(1) the details (when exactly, where exactly) of my scenario may be wrong,
but the general lines are probably +-correct,
(2) in any case, only complete idiots believe their early-Pleistocene ancestors ran after antelopes.

> OWM/ape split (± 25 Ma? = incipient Red Sea?):
> early-Miocene "apes" colonized flooded/coastal forests, wading bipedally & climbing arms overhead, google "aquarboreal":
> large body, long arms, central=vertical spine, very broad sternum-thorax-pelvis, tail loss, thick enamel...
> Lesser/great ape split (± 20 Ma? Red Sea?):
> hylobatids went East along the Indian Ocean to SE.Asia, later became smaller & faster brachiating gibbons & siamang.
> Hominid/pongid split (± 15 Ma? = Mesopotamian Seaway closure?):
> - pongids went East along the Indian Ocean to S.Asia: sivapiths, Pongo orangutans...
> - hominids went West along the Medit.=Tethys Sea, rivers, lakes: dryopiths, Trachilos, Oreopithecus ...
>
> Hominids in the Red Sea or Gulf split (± 8 Ma?) into Gorilla & Homo-Pan:
> Gorilla followed the Rift –> Praeanthropus afarensis–boisei...
> evolved from aquarboreal predom.herbivore (sedges...) to tropical forest:
> iliac elongation, knuckle-walking, thinner enamel, longer canines...
> -Hum.Evol.9:121-139, 1994 "Australopithecines: ancestors of the African apes?"
> -Hum.Evol.11:35-41, 1996 "Morphological distance between australopithecine, human and ape skulls"
> (google "ape human evolution made easy PPT").
>
> Homo & Pan split (± 5 Ma?) in the Gulf or E.African coast into
> - Pan –> Australopith.africanus–robustus... in S-Africa (see Hum.Evol.papers):
> evolved from aquarboreal (waterlilies...) to tropical forest frugivore, partly // Gorilla:
> higher pelvis, KWing, very long arms, longer canines...
> - Homo along the Indian Ocean became littoral (± 2 Ma?): diving for shellfish:
> hyoidal descent, shorter muzzle, closed tooth-row & incisiform canines (suction feeding), platycephaly, platymeria, pachy-osteo-sclerosis & ear exostoses (slow-shallow diving), very large brain, island fossils (Flores...), stone tools...
> Archaic Homo evolved mid/later-Pleistocene into wading-walking H.sapiens:
> loss of POS, very long legs, loss of supra-orbital torus, high forehead, smaller piriform aperture...

On Sunday 23 May 2021 at 14:49:52 UTC+1, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> OWM/ape split (± 25 Ma? = incipient Red Sea?):
> early-Miocene "apes" colonized flooded/coastal forests,

There was no reason for them to be near
water -- anymore than there is for apes
today.

> wading bipedally & climbing arms overhead, google "aquarboreal":
> large body, long arms, central=vertical spine, very broad sternum-
> thorax-pelvis, tail loss, thick enamel...

Apes split from monkeys. So they would,
almost certainly, have started off small.
The most obvious niche for them to fill
first is that of the gibbon. That's when
they lost their tails, developed a central
and vertical spine, broad sternum, etc.

This is the most parsimonious account.
Adaptations involving drastic changes in
anatomy occur only when the reasons
are compelling, and the same changes
rarely occur twice, or independently To
occupy their remarkably stable and
extensive niche, gibbons needed to lose
their tails and needed the long central
vertical spine. It's most unlikely that
their ancestors would have evolved these
features for other relatively minor
reasons.

> Lesser/great ape split (± 20 Ma? Red Sea?):
> hylobatids went East along the Indian Ocean to SE.Asia, later became
> smaller & faster brachiating gibbons & siamang.

Larger 'gibbons' evolved from smaller
ones. Extra size is often an advantage.
We can see that process in operation
with the Siamang gibbon. It shares its
territory with smaller gibbons, showing
that it does not compete directly. The
great apes (e.g. pongids) split off from the
lesser ones and some went West -- away
from S.E. Asia, which probably was (as it
still is) the only perfect gibbon territory.

> Hominid/pongid split (± 15 Ma? = Mesopotamian Seaway closure?):
> - pongids went East along the Indian Ocean to S.Asia: sivapiths, Pongo
> orangutans... - hominids went West along the Medit.=Tethys Sea,
> rivers, lakes: dryopiths, Trachilos, Oreopithecus ...

Pongid ancestors were big enough to
survive the crossing of territory with few
trees. Once they got to Africa and Europe
they diversified in all manner of ways.
They were probably better able to adapt
to the colder conditions of Europe than
were monkeys.

> Hominids in the Red Sea or Gulf split (± 8 Ma?) into Gorilla & Homo-
> Pan: Gorilla followed the Rift –> Praeanthropus afarensis–boisei...
> evolved from aquarboreal predom.herbivore (sedges...) to tropical
> forest: iliac elongation,

The iliac elongation would have been
completed much earlier, probably soon
after the lesser/great ape split. That of
pongo is even longer than pan, showing
that it needs to be able to climb often
and at speed.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Predictions-about-pelvic-evolution-in-the-Hominidae-made-by-Lovejoy-et-al-2009b-c_fig1_316089080

"Aquarboreal" stuff is all nonsense in any event.

> Homo & Pan split (± 5 Ma?) in the Gulf or E.African coast into - Pan –>
> Australopith.africanus–robustus... in S-Africa (see Hum.Evol.papers):
> evolved from aquarboreal (waterlilies...) to tropical forest frugivore,
> partly // Gorilla: higher pelvis, KWing, very long arms, longer canines.... -

Homo slept on the ground. It was never
viable for its females, their infants and
other young to live and sleep in the
presence of predators, nor in the
presence of competitors like chimps --
anymore than it is today. Child-raising
was only possible where there were no
predators -- i.e. off-shore islands.

> Homo along the Indian Ocean became littoral (± 2 Ma?):

They were 'littoral' from the origin of the
bipedal taxon. The big change was at
2.58 ma when ice-ages began. They then
had to become an awful lot more
adaptable to the constant and drastic
changes in sea-level.

> diving for shellfish: hyoidal descent, shorter muzzle, closed tooth-row &
> incisiform canines

Life on mainland continents generally
suffered massive declines during ice-ages.
Forests turned to savanna, and savanna
changed to desert. Dust-storms were
everywhere. But life in the sea probably
boomed. Iron is the limiting nutrient for
life in much of the oceans. Iron-laden
dust coming from the continents would
have allowed sea-life to thrive. We can
assume that hominins had nets and could
construct fish-traps from an early date.
There's really little need for diving. The
presence of ear exostoses in later
hominins shows that the taxon never
adapted to the conditions that produce
them. Regular swimming in cold water
was the behaviour of such a small
minority that neither its benefits nor its
costs had a selective effect.

> (suction feeding), platycephaly, platymeria, pachy-
> osteo-sclerosis & ear exostoses (slow-shallow diving), very large brain,
> island fossils (Flores...), stone tools... Archaic Homo evolved mid/later-
> Pleistocene into wading-walking H.sapiens: loss of POS, very long legs,
> loss of supra-orbital torus, high forehead, smaller piriform aperture...

Op dinsdag 25 mei 2021 om 17:28:13 UTC+2 schreef Paul Crowley:
> On Sunday 23 May 2021 at 14:49:52 UTC+1, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > OWM/ape split (± 25 Ma? = incipient Red Sea?):
> > early-Miocene "apes" colonized flooded/coastal forests,
> There was no reason for them to be near
> water -- anymore than there is for apes
> today.
> > wading bipedally & climbing arms overhead, google "aquarboreal":
> > large body, long arms, central=vertical spine, very broad sternum-
> > thorax-pelvis, tail loss, thick enamel...
> Apes split from monkeys. So they would,
> almost certainly, have started off small.
> The most obvious niche for them to fill
> first is that of the gibbon. That's when
> they lost their tails, developed a central
> and vertical spine, broad sternum, etc.

:-D Pauly, you're almost as ridiculous as the antelope runners.