On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
>Israel are free and happy and getting rich.

Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
rich.

>Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
>their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.

Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
<https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
"Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"

There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
(parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
>> Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
>
> Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
> When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
> Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> rich.
>
Indeed with the various Israel wars the Palestinians arguably where a
justification than a reason in of themselves and so on. Yom Kippur War
seems to be mostly about getting some military pride back, mainly Egypt.
Who absolutely did not want Gaza back!

>> Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
>> their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
>
> Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
>
> There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
>
>
>
>

Roger Merriman

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 3:08:55 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
>>>> Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
>>>
>>> Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
>>> Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
>>> were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
>>> that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
>>> country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
>>> Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
>>> in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
>>> When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
>>> lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
>>> refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
>>> Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
>>> they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
>>> rich.
>>>
>> Indeed with the various Israel wars the Palestinians arguably where a
>> justification than a reason in of themselves and so on. Yom Kippur War
>> seems to be mostly about getting some military pride back, mainly Egypt.
>> Who absolutely did not want Gaza back!
>>>> Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
>>>> their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
>>>
>>> Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
>>> citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
>>> <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
>>> "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
>>> elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
>>>
>>> There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
>>> (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
>>> The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
>>> Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
>>> 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Roger Merriman
> Most of the Palestinians that are rich live in Israel and Liebermann
> tells you that it ain't so. He wants you to believe because they all
> aren't rich they are as sick and unhappy as he is. The worse off are
> living on welfare just like Liebermann is. A pitiful nobody trying to
> convince the world that they really screwed up not hiring a useless twit
> like him. Well, most people understand that the world knows what it is doing.
>
More the Arab states note Qatar involvement as a 3rd party for the exchange
of hostages/prisoners as number of the Hamas leadership live there.

Roger Merriman

On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 15:37:53 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Most of the Palestinians that are rich live in Israel and Liebermann tells you that it ain't so. He wants you to believe because they all aren't rich they are as sick and unhappy as he is. The worse off are living on welfare just like Liebermann is. A pitiful nobody trying to convince the world that they really screwed up not hiring a useless twit like him. Well, most people understand that the world knows what it is doing.

I think I understand a little more about how Tom functions. Tom wants
to be an authority or expert on everything. A key characteristic of
an expert is that readers usually accept their claims as authoritative
without much question. Given a proving track record of getting things
right, such an expert can make claims that are assumed to be correct
and which do not need to be verified, substantiated, fact checked, or
otherwise questioned. I'm not an expert and therefore provide links
to references that backup my claims. Tom is wants to be an expert and
therefore provides no proof, substantiation or even links to his
sources.

The problem is that Tom has it backwards. One must be declared an
expert BEFORE they can indulge in the luxury of not needing to prove
one's claims. Tom seems to assume that if he doesn't substantiate his
claims, and experts usually don't need to substantiate their claims,
he must be an expert.

Sorry Tom, it doesn't work that way. You don't know anything about
the middle east and are certainly not an expert. I'm also not an
expert on middle east politics, but I have slightly more experience, I
have relatives in Israel, and have the benefit of using various search
engines to substantiate my claims. Not providing proof does to make
you an expert or authority on anything.

Old business and change of topic:

What is the location of the location (on Google Earth) showing your
"deep mud" filled Cull Canyon lagoon? Posting a recent photo would be
helpful.

You haven't posted a photo of your "Keep Out, Deep Mud" sign near the
muddy lagoon.

You previously claimed to be driving a (2007, 2008, 2009 or 2012) Ford
Taurus or Taurus X. I don't believe you. Could you post a photo of
the vehicle in front of your house?

There are more unsubstantiated claims, but these are recent claims
which I find most most interesting.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 10:43:50 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
> >Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
> Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
> When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
> Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> rich.
>
> >Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
> >their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
> Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
>
> There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
"The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
>
Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.
>
The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere. They were squatters on land held in mandate from the League of Nations by the British, and before that squatters on land in the Ottoman Empire so worthless that it wasn't worth collecting taxes there. The various aliya of Jewish Immigration, starting before WW1 and continuing in the interwar years, accelerating after the Holocaust, consisted of smallish numbers of Jews who bought pieces of land from the squatters, who were Arabs, Druze, and all kinds of odds and sods; the world didn't mind giving Palestine to the Jews because it was the dump of all the hopeless trash of the world; they weren't so keen on the Zionists! There was no Palestinian "state" as the boosters of Hamas terrorist and rapists -- and you, Liebermann -- claim. They all belonged to the British, who provided administration and security at least for commerce. The Palestinians didn't have the gumption to fight the British for the land but the Zionists did.The Jews have by far the best claim to the land as the survivors of the original inhabitants, thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Arabs, specifically the Islamists, are johnny-come-latelies; their religion, and with it their claim to the land arises because even later still they built one of their most important mosques on the site of the Hebrew Temple, wasn't even founded until the seventh century AD (what the politically correct idiots call the "common era" with a certain unintended irony). The other Arabs were actually happy to have the Palestinians in 1948 but the Palestinians soon proved themselves treacherous to their hosts and tried to take over their countries. King Hussein proved that he wasn't a limp dishcloth by riding in the first tank that went in to eject the Palestinians from what's now called Jordan, over the river into Israel. Arabs relish treachery when it succeeds but they're merciless to traitors who fail, and the Palestinians are iterative treacherous failures. Memories are long, so none of the other Arabs want the Palestinians. Even the Egyptians don't want Gaza, which Israel took from Egypt in one of the silly Arab wars on them to be a buffer zone, returned to them if they have to take the Palestinians with the land. The most effective fence around the Palestinians isn't the porous border between Israel and Gaza, but the armed fence the Egyptians put up to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. The Palestinians are pariahs because they've made themselves into pariah's. Sooner rather than later, they will stab Hizbollah and the Iranian fascist clerics in the back, too. If you have a beef with any of this, which all informed and educated people know, prove it..
>
Andre Jute
It's embarrassing to have to explain these simple, obvious matters of incontrovertible history to American Jews over and over and over again.
>

On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 10:43:50 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
> > >Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
> > Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> > were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> > that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> > country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> > Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> > in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
> > When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> > lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> > refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
> > Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> > they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> > rich.
> >
> > >Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
> > >their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
> > Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> > citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> > <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> > "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> > elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
> >
> > There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> > (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> > The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> > Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> > 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> >
> This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
> "The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
> >
> Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.
> >
> The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere. They were squatters on land held in mandate from the League of Nations by the British, and before that squatters on land in the Ottoman Empire so worthless that it wasn't worth collecting taxes there. The various aliya of Jewish Immigration, starting before WW1 and continuing in the interwar years, accelerating after the Holocaust, consisted of smallish numbers of Jews who bought pieces of land from the squatters, who were Arabs, Druze, and all kinds of odds and sods; the world didn't mind giving Palestine to the Jews because it was the dump of all the hopeless trash of the world; they weren't so keen on the Zionists! There was no Palestinian "state" as the boosters of Hamas terrorist and rapists -- and you, Liebermann -- claim. They all belonged to the British, who provided administration and security at least for commerce. The Palestinians didn't have the gumption to fight the British for the land but the Zionists did.The Jews have by far the best claim to the land as the survivors of the original inhabitants, thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Arabs, specifically the Islamists, are johnny-come-latelies; their religion, and with it their claim to the land arises because even later still they built one of their most important mosques on the site of the Hebrew Temple, wasn't even founded until the seventh century AD (what the politically correct idiots call the "common era" with a certain unintended irony). The other Arabs were actually happy to have the Palestinians in 1948 but the Palestinians soon proved themselves treacherous to their hosts and tried to take over their countries. King Hussein proved that he wasn't a limp dishcloth by riding in the first tank that went in to eject the Palestinians from what's now called Jordan, over the river into Israel. Arabs relish treachery when it succeeds but they're merciless to traitors who fail, and the Palestinians are iterative treacherous failures. Memories are long, so none of the other Arabs want the Palestinians. Even the Egyptians don't want Gaza, which Israel took from Egypt in one of the silly Arab wars on them to be a buffer zone, returned to them if they have to take the Palestinians with the land. The most effective fence around the Palestinians isn't the porous border between Israel and Gaza, but the armed fence the Egyptians put up to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. The Palestinians are pariahs because they've made themselves into pariah's. Sooner rather than later, they will stab Hizbollah and the Iranian fascist clerics in the back, too. If you have a beef with any of this, which all informed and educated people know, prove it.
> >
> Andre Jute
> It's embarrassing to have to explain these simple, obvious matters of incontrovertible history to American Jews over and over and over again.
> >

The people most audibly against the Jewish presence in the Holy Land are American Jews who do not practice their religion and hate those who do. I wonder it is now that they know that they are headed straight for hell because they have made the choice of not following the rather complex laws laid down to them by God. Certainly Liebermann is headed for eternal agony.

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 4:51:00 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 10:43:50 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
> > > >Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
> > > Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> > > were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> > > that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> > > country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> > > Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> > > in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
> > > When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> > > lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> > > refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
> > > Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> > > they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> > > rich.
> > >
> > > >Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
> > > >their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
> > > Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> > > citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> > > <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> > > "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> > > elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
> > >
> > > There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> > > (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> > > The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> > > Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> > > 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > >
> > This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
> > "The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
> > >
> > Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.
> > >
> > The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere. They were squatters on land held in mandate from the League of Nations by the British, and before that squatters on land in the Ottoman Empire so worthless that it wasn't worth collecting taxes there. The various aliya of Jewish Immigration, starting before WW1 and continuing in the interwar years, accelerating after the Holocaust, consisted of smallish numbers of Jews who bought pieces of land from the squatters, who were Arabs, Druze, and all kinds of odds and sods; the world didn't mind giving Palestine to the Jews because it was the dump of all the hopeless trash of the world; they weren't so keen on the Zionists! There was no Palestinian "state" as the boosters of Hamas terrorist and rapists -- and you, Liebermann -- claim. They all belonged to the British, who provided administration and security at least for commerce. The Palestinians didn't have the gumption to fight the British for the land but the Zionists did.The Jews have by far the best claim to the land as the survivors of the original inhabitants, thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Arabs, specifically the Islamists, are johnny-come-latelies; their religion, and with it their claim to the land arises because even later still they built one of their most important mosques on the site of the Hebrew Temple, wasn't even founded until the seventh century AD (what the politically correct idiots call the "common era" with a certain unintended irony). The other Arabs were actually happy to have the Palestinians in 1948 but the Palestinians soon proved themselves treacherous to their hosts and tried to take over their countries. King Hussein proved that he wasn't a limp dishcloth by riding in the first tank that went in to eject the Palestinians from what's now called Jordan, over the river into Israel. Arabs relish treachery when it succeeds but they're merciless to traitors who fail, and the Palestinians are iterative treacherous failures. Memories are long, so none of the other Arabs want the Palestinians. Even the Egyptians don't want Gaza, which Israel took from Egypt in one of the silly Arab wars on them to be a buffer zone, returned to them if they have to take the Palestinians with the land. The most effective fence around the Palestinians isn't the porous border between Israel and Gaza, but the armed fence the Egyptians put up to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. The Palestinians are pariahs because they've made themselves into pariah's. Sooner rather than later, they will stab Hizbollah and the Iranian fascist clerics in the back, too. If you have a beef with any of this, which all informed and educated people know, prove it.
> > >
> > Andre Jute
> > It's embarrassing to have to explain these simple, obvious matters of incontrovertible history to American Jews over and over and over again.
> > >
> The people most audibly against the Jewish presence in the Holy Land are American Jews who do not practice their religion and hate those who do. I wonder it is now that they know that they are headed straight for hell because they have made the choice of not following the rather complex laws laid down to them by God. Certainly Liebermann is headed for eternal agony.
If you believe in this fear mongering I'd be worried.

Lou

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 9:36:12 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 4:51:00 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 10:43:50 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
> > > > >Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
> > > > Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> > > > were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> > > > that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> > > > country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> > > > Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> > > > in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
> > > > When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> > > > lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> > > > refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people..
> > > > Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> > > > they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> > > > rich.
> > > >
> > > > >Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
> > > > >their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
> > > > Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> > > > citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> > > > <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> > > > "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> > > > elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
> > > >
> > > > There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> > > > (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> > > > The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> > > > Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> > > > 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > > >
> > > This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
> > > "The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
> > > >
> > > Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.
> > > >
> > > The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere. They were squatters on land held in mandate from the League of Nations by the British, and before that squatters on land in the Ottoman Empire so worthless that it wasn't worth collecting taxes there. The various aliya of Jewish Immigration, starting before WW1 and continuing in the interwar years, accelerating after the Holocaust, consisted of smallish numbers of Jews who bought pieces of land from the squatters, who were Arabs, Druze, and all kinds of odds and sods; the world didn't mind giving Palestine to the Jews because it was the dump of all the hopeless trash of the world; they weren't so keen on the Zionists! There was no Palestinian "state" as the boosters of Hamas terrorist and rapists -- and you, Liebermann -- claim. They all belonged to the British, who provided administration and security at least for commerce. The Palestinians didn't have the gumption to fight the British for the land but the Zionists did.The Jews have by far the best claim to the land as the survivors of the original inhabitants, thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Arabs, specifically the Islamists, are johnny-come-latelies; their religion, and with it their claim to the land arises because even later still they built one of their most important mosques on the site of the Hebrew Temple, wasn't even founded until the seventh century AD (what the politically correct idiots call the "common era" with a certain unintended irony). The other Arabs were actually happy to have the Palestinians in 1948 but the Palestinians soon proved themselves treacherous to their hosts and tried to take over their countries. King Hussein proved that he wasn't a limp dishcloth by riding in the first tank that went in to eject the Palestinians from what's now called Jordan, over the river into Israel. Arabs relish treachery when it succeeds but they're merciless to traitors who fail, and the Palestinians are iterative treacherous failures. Memories are long, so none of the other Arabs want the Palestinians. Even the Egyptians don't want Gaza, which Israel took from Egypt in one of the silly Arab wars on them to be a buffer zone, returned to them if they have to take the Palestinians with the land. The most effective fence around the Palestinians isn't the porous border between Israel and Gaza, but the armed fence the Egyptians put up to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. The Palestinians are pariahs because they've made themselves into pariah's. Sooner rather than later, they will stab Hizbollah and the Iranian fascist clerics in the back, too. If you have a beef with any of this, which all informed and educated people know, prove it.
> > > >
> > > Andre Jute
> > > It's embarrassing to have to explain these simple, obvious matters of incontrovertible history to American Jews over and over and over again.
> > > >
> > The people most audibly against the Jewish presence in the Holy Land are American Jews who do not practice their religion and hate those who do. I wonder it is now that they know that they are headed straight for hell because they have made the choice of not following the rather complex laws laid down to them by God. Certainly Liebermann is headed for eternal agony.
> If you believe in this fear mongering I'd be worried.
>
> Lou

Lou, this isn't "fear mongering". We see it now almost every day and many of the young people in this anti-Israeli-pro Palestinian protestors are Jews themselves believing that the FACT that their parents are Jewish somehow gives their false grievances validity. https://www.jta.org/2023/10/20/united-states/from-grief-to-rage-american-jews-are-struggling-with-how-to-feel-about-the-conflict-in-israel

Out of sight out of mind and the Dutch people were "cleansed" of the "Jewish problem a few years ago so you can pretend that it was solved and that the assault on Israel and the probable overreaction of Israel was not warranted by Hamas.

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 7:10:44 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 9:36:12 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 4:51:00 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 10:43:50 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
> > > > > >Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
> > > > > Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> > > > > were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> > > > > that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> > > > > country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> > > > > Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> > > > > in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost..
> > > > > When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> > > > > lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> > > > > refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
> > > > > Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> > > > > they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> > > > > rich.
> > > > >
> > > > > >Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
> > > > > >their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority..
> > > > > Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> > > > > citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> > > > > <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> > > > > "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> > > > > elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
> > > > >
> > > > > There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> > > > > (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> > > > > The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> > > > > Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> > > > > 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > > > >
> > > > This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
> > > > "The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
> > > > >
> > > > Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.
> > > > >
> > > > The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere. They were squatters on land held in mandate from the League of Nations by the British, and before that squatters on land in the Ottoman Empire so worthless that it wasn't worth collecting taxes there. The various aliya of Jewish Immigration, starting before WW1 and continuing in the interwar years, accelerating after the Holocaust, consisted of smallish numbers of Jews who bought pieces of land from the squatters, who were Arabs, Druze, and all kinds of odds and sods; the world didn't mind giving Palestine to the Jews because it was the dump of all the hopeless trash of the world; they weren't so keen on the Zionists! There was no Palestinian "state" as the boosters of Hamas terrorist and rapists -- and you, Liebermann -- claim. They all belonged to the British, who provided administration and security at least for commerce. The Palestinians didn't have the gumption to fight the British for the land but the Zionists did.The Jews have by far the best claim to the land as the survivors of the original inhabitants, thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Arabs, specifically the Islamists, are johnny-come-latelies; their religion, and with it their claim to the land arises because even later still they built one of their most important mosques on the site of the Hebrew Temple, wasn't even founded until the seventh century AD (what the politically correct idiots call the "common era" with a certain unintended irony). The other Arabs were actually happy to have the Palestinians in 1948 but the Palestinians soon proved themselves treacherous to their hosts and tried to take over their countries. King Hussein proved that he wasn't a limp dishcloth by riding in the first tank that went in to eject the Palestinians from what's now called Jordan, over the river into Israel. Arabs relish treachery when it succeeds but they're merciless to traitors who fail, and the Palestinians are iterative treacherous failures. Memories are long, so none of the other Arabs want the Palestinians. Even the Egyptians don't want Gaza, which Israel took from Egypt in one of the silly Arab wars on them to be a buffer zone, returned to them if they have to take the Palestinians with the land. The most effective fence around the Palestinians isn't the porous border between Israel and Gaza, but the armed fence the Egyptians put up to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. The Palestinians are pariahs because they've made themselves into pariah's. Sooner rather than later, they will stab Hizbollah and the Iranian fascist clerics in the back, too. If you have a beef with any of this, which all informed and educated people know, prove it.
> > > > >
> > > > Andre Jute
> > > > It's embarrassing to have to explain these simple, obvious matters of incontrovertible history to American Jews over and over and over again.
> > > > >
> > > The people most audibly against the Jewish presence in the Holy Land are American Jews who do not practice their religion and hate those who do. I wonder it is now that they know that they are headed straight for hell because they have made the choice of not following the rather complex laws laid down to them by God. Certainly Liebermann is headed for eternal agony.
> > If you believe in this fear mongering I'd be worried.
> >
> > Lou
> Lou, this isn't "fear mongering". We see it now almost every day and many of the young people in this anti-Israeli-pro Palestinian protestors are Jews themselves believing that the FACT that their parents are Jewish somehow gives their false grievances validity. https://www.jta.org/2023/10/20/united-states/from-grief-to-rage-american-jews-are-struggling-with-how-to-feel-about-the-conflict-in-israel
>
> Out of sight out of mind and the Dutch people were "cleansed" of the "Jewish problem a few years ago so you can pretend that it was solved and that the assault on Israel and the probable overreaction of Israel was not warranted by Hamas.

All I can say is that there is enormous amount of ‘collateral’ damage.

Lou

On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 22:16:53 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
<fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
>"The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
>> Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
>>
>Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.

Between 1918 and 1948, the residents of what was then called
Palestine, were a mix of nationalities mostly consisting of those left
over from the Ottoman Empire. Palestine was a British colony and was
called Palestine for convenience. After the UN partition, it was
called Israel by the UN and the supporters of Israel, and continued to
be called Palestine by most everyone else. When the Arab residents of
Israel made the mistake of leaving Israel for a vacation in the
neighboring countries, they continued to call it Palestine even though
they were officially residents of Israel. When Israel refused to let
them return to Israel, they became displaced people and continued to
call themselves Palestinians.

>The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere.

One is not a citizen of a place. One is considered a citizen of a
country and a government. For simplicity, I consider a country to be
something recognized by the UN as being a country. The Palestinian
state did not exist until 1988, when it declared itself to be a
country:
<https://www.un.org/unispal/history/>

Incidentally, neither Israel or Egypt want Gaza.
<https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/gaza-strip-israel-hamas-war-demographics>
"Israel, with the support of Egypt, imposed a land, sea and air
blockade of Gaza in 2007 after Hamas took control of the enclave.
Because of the blockade, Gaza is still considered occupied by Israel,
according to the UN."

In 1967 Israel took the entire Sinai Peninsula which was part of
Egypt. In 1978, as part of the Camp David accords, Israel agreed to
give back the Sinai Peninsula which included Gaza. Egypt refused the
offer declaring that Gaza was never part of Egypt. See map:
<https://www.the-map-as-history.com/History-of-Middle-East-20th-century/continuation-of-the-israeli-arab-conflict>
"...after 6 days of war, the Israeli troops had taken control of the
Golan Heights in Syria, the West Bank, Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula."

The rest of your rant (below), I mostly agree with your comments. I
need to read it in detail, extract the irrelevant flowery language and
concentrate on the few facts that are left. I have some paying work,
a chipped tooth and some house repair that needs to be done before I
can continue. I'll be back on Weds or Thurs.

>They were squatters on land held in mandate from the League of Nations by the British, and before that squatters on land in the Ottoman Empire so worthless that it wasn't worth collecting taxes there. The various aliya of Jewish Immigration, starting before WW1 and continuing in the interwar years, accelerating after the Holocaust, consisted of smallish numbers of Jews who bought pieces of land from the squatters, who were Arabs, Druze, and all kinds of odds and sods; the world didn't mind giving Palestine to the Jews because it was the dump of all the hopeless trash of the world; they weren't so keen on the Zionists! There was no Palestinian "state" as the boosters of Hamas terrorist and rapists -- and you, Liebermann -- claim. They all belonged to the British, who provided administration and security at least for commerce. The Palestinians didn't have the gumption to fight the British for the land but the Zionists did.The Jews have
>by far the best claim to the land as the survivors of the original inhabitants, thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Arabs, specifically the Islamists, are johnny-come-latelies; their religion, and with it their claim to the land arises because even later still they built one of their most important mosques on the site of the Hebrew Temple, wasn't even founded until the seventh century AD (what the politically correct idiots call the "common era" with a certain unintended irony). The other Arabs were actually happy to have the Palestinians in 1948 but the Palestinians soon proved themselves treacherous to their hosts and tried to take over their countries. King Hussein proved that he wasn't a limp dishcloth by riding in the first tank that went in to eject the Palestinians from what's now called Jordan, over the river into Israel. Arabs relish treachery when it succeeds but they're merciless to traitors who fail, and the Palestinians are iterative treacherous failures.
>Memories are long, so none of the other Arabs want the Palestinians. Even the Egyptians don't want Gaza, which Israel took from Egypt in one of the silly Arab wars on them to be a buffer zone, returned to them if they have to take the Palestinians with the land. The most effective fence around the Palestinians isn't the porous border between Israel and Gaza, but the armed fence the Egyptians put up to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. The Palestinians are pariahs because they've made themselves into pariah's. Sooner rather than later, they will stab Hizbollah and the Iranian fascist clerics in the back, too. If you have a beef with any of this, which all informed and educated people know, prove it.
>>
>Andre Jute
>It's embarrassing to have to explain these simple, obvious matters of incontrovertible history to American Jews over and over and over again.
>>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 11:30:16 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 7:10:44 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 9:36:12 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 4:51:00 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 10:43:50 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > > > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
> > > > > > >Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
> > > > > > Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> > > > > > were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> > > > > > that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> > > > > > country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> > > > > > Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> > > > > > in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
> > > > > > When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> > > > > > lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> > > > > > refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
> > > > > > Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> > > > > > they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> > > > > > rich.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
> > > > > > >their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
> > > > > > Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> > > > > > citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> > > > > > <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> > > > > > "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> > > > > > elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> > > > > > (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> > > > > > The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> > > > > > Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> > > > > > 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > > > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > > > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > > > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > > > > >
> > > > > This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
> > > > > "The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
> > > > > >
> > > > > Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.
> > > > > >
> > > > > The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere. They were squatters on land held in mandate from the League of Nations by the British, and before that squatters on land in the Ottoman Empire so worthless that it wasn't worth collecting taxes there. The various aliya of Jewish Immigration, starting before WW1 and continuing in the interwar years, accelerating after the Holocaust, consisted of smallish numbers of Jews who bought pieces of land from the squatters, who were Arabs, Druze, and all kinds of odds and sods; the world didn't mind giving Palestine to the Jews because it was the dump of all the hopeless trash of the world; they weren't so keen on the Zionists! There was no Palestinian "state" as the boosters of Hamas terrorist and rapists -- and you, Liebermann -- claim. They all belonged to the British, who provided administration and security at least for commerce. The Palestinians didn't have the gumption to fight the British for the land but the Zionists did.The Jews have by far the best claim to the land as the survivors of the original inhabitants, thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Arabs, specifically the Islamists, are johnny-come-latelies; their religion, and with it their claim to the land arises because even later still they built one of their most important mosques on the site of the Hebrew Temple, wasn't even founded until the seventh century AD (what the politically correct idiots call the "common era" with a certain unintended irony).. The other Arabs were actually happy to have the Palestinians in 1948 but the Palestinians soon proved themselves treacherous to their hosts and tried to take over their countries. King Hussein proved that he wasn't a limp dishcloth by riding in the first tank that went in to eject the Palestinians from what's now called Jordan, over the river into Israel. Arabs relish treachery when it succeeds but they're merciless to traitors who fail, and the Palestinians are iterative treacherous failures. Memories are long, so none of the other Arabs want the Palestinians. Even the Egyptians don't want Gaza, which Israel took from Egypt in one of the silly Arab wars on them to be a buffer zone, returned to them if they have to take the Palestinians with the land. The most effective fence around the Palestinians isn't the porous border between Israel and Gaza, but the armed fence the Egyptians put up to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. The Palestinians are pariahs because they've made themselves into pariah's. Sooner rather than later, they will stab Hizbollah and the Iranian fascist clerics in the back, too. If you have a beef with any of this, which all informed and educated people know, prove it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Andre Jute
> > > > > It's embarrassing to have to explain these simple, obvious matters of incontrovertible history to American Jews over and over and over again..
> > > > > >
> > > > The people most audibly against the Jewish presence in the Holy Land are American Jews who do not practice their religion and hate those who do. I wonder it is now that they know that they are headed straight for hell because they have made the choice of not following the rather complex laws laid down to them by God. Certainly Liebermann is headed for eternal agony..
> > > If you believe in this fear mongering I'd be worried.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Lou, this isn't "fear mongering". We see it now almost every day and many of the young people in this anti-Israeli-pro Palestinian protestors are Jews themselves believing that the FACT that their parents are Jewish somehow gives their false grievances validity. https://www.jta.org/2023/10/20/united-states/from-grief-to-rage-american-jews-are-struggling-with-how-to-feel-about-the-conflict-in-israel
> >
> > Out of sight out of mind and the Dutch people were "cleansed" of the "Jewish problem a few years ago so you can pretend that it was solved and that the assault on Israel and the probable overreaction of Israel was not warranted by Hamas.
> All I can say is that there is enormous amount of ‘collateral’ damage.
>
> Lou

Well, every couple of months Hamas has be shooting missiles into Israel. Israel has been attempting do as little as possible because "Iron Dome" has stopped most of these Hamas Missiles. But when they actually invaded Israel and killed a couple thousand men, women and children that was a declaration of war. So while the Israeli reaction might seem an overreaction it is due to the continuous attacks for years - almost from the return of the People to the holy land.

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 7:30:16 PM UTC, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 7:10:44 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 9:36:12 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 4:51:00 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 10:43:50 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > > > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
> > > > > > >Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
> > > > > > Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> > > > > > were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> > > > > > that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> > > > > > country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> > > > > > Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> > > > > > in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
> > > > > > When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> > > > > > lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> > > > > > refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
> > > > > > Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> > > > > > they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> > > > > > rich.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
> > > > > > >their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
> > > > > > Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> > > > > > citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> > > > > > <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> > > > > > "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> > > > > > elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> > > > > > (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> > > > > > The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> > > > > > Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> > > > > > 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > > > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > > > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > > > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > > > > >
> > > > > This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
> > > > > "The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
> > > > > >
> > > > > Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.
> > > > > >
> > > > > The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere. They were squatters on land held in mandate from the League of Nations by the British, and before that squatters on land in the Ottoman Empire so worthless that it wasn't worth collecting taxes there. The various aliya of Jewish Immigration, starting before WW1 and continuing in the interwar years, accelerating after the Holocaust, consisted of smallish numbers of Jews who bought pieces of land from the squatters, who were Arabs, Druze, and all kinds of odds and sods; the world didn't mind giving Palestine to the Jews because it was the dump of all the hopeless trash of the world; they weren't so keen on the Zionists! There was no Palestinian "state" as the boosters of Hamas terrorist and rapists -- and you, Liebermann -- claim. They all belonged to the British, who provided administration and security at least for commerce. The Palestinians didn't have the gumption to fight the British for the land but the Zionists did.The Jews have by far the best claim to the land as the survivors of the original inhabitants, thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Arabs, specifically the Islamists, are johnny-come-latelies; their religion, and with it their claim to the land arises because even later still they built one of their most important mosques on the site of the Hebrew Temple, wasn't even founded until the seventh century AD (what the politically correct idiots call the "common era" with a certain unintended irony).. The other Arabs were actually happy to have the Palestinians in 1948 but the Palestinians soon proved themselves treacherous to their hosts and tried to take over their countries. King Hussein proved that he wasn't a limp dishcloth by riding in the first tank that went in to eject the Palestinians from what's now called Jordan, over the river into Israel. Arabs relish treachery when it succeeds but they're merciless to traitors who fail, and the Palestinians are iterative treacherous failures. Memories are long, so none of the other Arabs want the Palestinians. Even the Egyptians don't want Gaza, which Israel took from Egypt in one of the silly Arab wars on them to be a buffer zone, returned to them if they have to take the Palestinians with the land. The most effective fence around the Palestinians isn't the porous border between Israel and Gaza, but the armed fence the Egyptians put up to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. The Palestinians are pariahs because they've made themselves into pariah's. Sooner rather than later, they will stab Hizbollah and the Iranian fascist clerics in the back, too. If you have a beef with any of this, which all informed and educated people know, prove it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Andre Jute
> > > > > It's embarrassing to have to explain these simple, obvious matters of incontrovertible history to American Jews over and over and over again..
> > > > > >
> > > > The people most audibly against the Jewish presence in the Holy Land are American Jews who do not practice their religion and hate those who do. I wonder it is now that they know that they are headed straight for hell because they have made the choice of not following the rather complex laws laid down to them by God. Certainly Liebermann is headed for eternal agony..
> > > If you believe in this fear mongering I'd be worried.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Lou, this isn't "fear mongering". We see it now almost every day and many of the young people in this anti-Israeli-pro Palestinian protestors are Jews themselves believing that the FACT that their parents are Jewish somehow gives their false grievances validity. https://www.jta.org/2023/10/20/united-states/from-grief-to-rage-american-jews-are-struggling-with-how-to-feel-about-the-conflict-in-israel
> >
> > Out of sight out of mind and the Dutch people were "cleansed" of the "Jewish problem a few years ago so you can pretend that it was solved and that the assault on Israel and the probable overreaction of Israel was not warranted by Hamas.
>
> All I can say is that there is enormous amount of ‘collateral’ damage.
>
> Lou
>
I'm glad someone on RBT is calling attention to the crimes of Hamas, virtually all of which are crimes against civilians, what Lou calls "collateral damage". Here's a much truncated list, covering just the last six weeks:
>
1. On October 7th 2023 alone:
-- Hamas deliberately aimed countless rockets at civilians and at hospitals, schools and other gathering places of civilian gathering. This is a War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- Hamas in breach of a previous ceasefire invaded Israel. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- The Hamas terrorists were under specific instructions to attack the maximum numbers of civilians. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- The Hamas terrorists were under specific orders from their leadership to kill, maim, rape and burn alive as many civilians as possible. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- The Hamas invaders did kill, maim, rape and burn alive civilians including babies, some put alive in ovens to be cooked. War Crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- Hamas "fighters" (against unarmed civilians) were instructed to torture some before killing them. They cut a pregnant woman's womb open, and before her dashed her baby's head against a wall, then killed her. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- The Hamas invaders took 150 hostages, mainly civilians, and including citizens of many non-combatant nations. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
>
2. Since October 7th, Hamas has intentionally caused the greatest possible number of Palestinians (their own people!) to die as "collateral damage" to put pressure on "useful idiots" (Lenin) among their fellow-travellers in the West to call for ceasefires and an end to the war so Hamas rearm. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949. Here's an abbreviated list:
__ Hamas deliberate built their headquarters and defensive positions under hospitals, schools, mosques. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- Hamas stopped the populace leaving the war zone. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- Hamas murdered some among those who t5ried to leave and turned the rest back to serve as shields and eventual "martyrs". War Crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- Hamas murdered some of the hostages. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- Hamas has continued rocket attacks specifically aimed at hospitals in Israel. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
-- Hamas uses Red Cross ambulances and other medically marked vehicles to transport their terrorists safely. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
>
There's much are many more classes of war crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949 constantly committed by Hamas, it's Iranian backers and Hezbulla, but those will suffice to draw a contrast with Israel's humanitarian efforts to minimise loss of non-Hamas lives even in the middle of an existential war started by Hamas.
>
Israeli soldiers act under strict discipline not to shoot at civilians who do not threaten them. Israel consistently give away the benefit of surprise -- extremely valuable in any war and particularly in an urban guerrilla war, which well describes the cleaning out of the barbarians in Gaza. It is the civilians who heeded Israel's warnings --delivered by radio and television and the internet, even by personally addressed e-mail -- and tried to leave the city who Hamas turned back the survivors to serve as shields and "martyrs" for the barbaric "cause" of killing jews, after first killing enough to serve as an example for anyone else contemplating doing the human thing, running from a war zone. Israel's jet jockeys have given endless examples of calling off bombing runs at the very last moment when the presence of Hamas' "martyrs" was confirmed.
>
I salute you, Lou, for seeing, amidst all the hullaballoo from your terrorist-friendly to antisemitic local media, that Israel is a principled war fighter, and Hamas is a scum of degenerate deliberate war criminals, responsible among other War Crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949, for the "collateral damage" among their own people.
>
The sooner Israel clears the inhuman warmongers of Hamas out of Gaza, preferably dead so this saga can end forever, the sooner the world will regain some sanity and decency.
>
Andre Jute
The bell tolls for Hamas.
>

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 3:22:40 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 7:30:16 PM UTC, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 7:10:44 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 9:36:12 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 4:51:00 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 10:43:50 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > > > > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > > > > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
> > > > > > > >Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
> > > > > > > Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> > > > > > > were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> > > > > > > that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> > > > > > > country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> > > > > > > Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> > > > > > > in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
> > > > > > > When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> > > > > > > lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> > > > > > > refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
> > > > > > > Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> > > > > > > they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> > > > > > > rich.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
> > > > > > > >their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
> > > > > > > Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> > > > > > > citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> > > > > > > <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> > > > > > > "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> > > > > > > elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> > > > > > > (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> > > > > > > The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> > > > > > > Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> > > > > > > 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > > > > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > > > > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > > > > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
> > > > > > "The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere. They were squatters on land held in mandate from the League of Nations by the British, and before that squatters on land in the Ottoman Empire so worthless that it wasn't worth collecting taxes there. The various aliya of Jewish Immigration, starting before WW1 and continuing in the interwar years, accelerating after the Holocaust, consisted of smallish numbers of Jews who bought pieces of land from the squatters, who were Arabs, Druze, and all kinds of odds and sods; the world didn't mind giving Palestine to the Jews because it was the dump of all the hopeless trash of the world; they weren't so keen on the Zionists! There was no Palestinian "state" as the boosters of Hamas terrorist and rapists -- and you, Liebermann -- claim. They all belonged to the British, who provided administration and security at least for commerce. The Palestinians didn't have the gumption to fight the British for the land but the Zionists did.The Jews have by far the best claim to the land as the survivors of the original inhabitants, thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Arabs, specifically the Islamists, are johnny-come-latelies; their religion, and with it their claim to the land arises because even later still they built one of their most important mosques on the site of the Hebrew Temple, wasn't even founded until the seventh century AD (what the politically correct idiots call the "common era" with a certain unintended irony). The other Arabs were actually happy to have the Palestinians in 1948 but the Palestinians soon proved themselves treacherous to their hosts and tried to take over their countries. King Hussein proved that he wasn't a limp dishcloth by riding in the first tank that went in to eject the Palestinians from what's now called Jordan, over the river into Israel. Arabs relish treachery when it succeeds but they're merciless to traitors who fail, and the Palestinians are iterative treacherous failures. Memories are long, so none of the other Arabs want the Palestinians. Even the Egyptians don't want Gaza, which Israel took from Egypt in one of the silly Arab wars on them to be a buffer zone, returned to them if they have to take the Palestinians with the land. The most effective fence around the Palestinians isn't the porous border between Israel and Gaza, but the armed fence the Egyptians put up to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. The Palestinians are pariahs because they've made themselves into pariah's. Sooner rather than later, they will stab Hizbollah and the Iranian fascist clerics in the back, too. If you have a beef with any of this, which all informed and educated people know, prove it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Andre Jute
> > > > > > It's embarrassing to have to explain these simple, obvious matters of incontrovertible history to American Jews over and over and over again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > The people most audibly against the Jewish presence in the Holy Land are American Jews who do not practice their religion and hate those who do. I wonder it is now that they know that they are headed straight for hell because they have made the choice of not following the rather complex laws laid down to them by God. Certainly Liebermann is headed for eternal agony.
> > > > If you believe in this fear mongering I'd be worried.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > Lou, this isn't "fear mongering". We see it now almost every day and many of the young people in this anti-Israeli-pro Palestinian protestors are Jews themselves believing that the FACT that their parents are Jewish somehow gives their false grievances validity. https://www.jta.org/2023/10/20/united-states/from-grief-to-rage-american-jews-are-struggling-with-how-to-feel-about-the-conflict-in-israel
> > >
> > > Out of sight out of mind and the Dutch people were "cleansed" of the "Jewish problem a few years ago so you can pretend that it was solved and that the assault on Israel and the probable overreaction of Israel was not warranted by Hamas.
> >
> > All I can say is that there is enormous amount of ‘collateral’ damage.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> I'm glad someone on RBT is calling attention to the crimes of Hamas, virtually all of which are crimes against civilians, what Lou calls "collateral damage". Here's a much truncated list, covering just the last six weeks:
> >
> 1. On October 7th 2023 alone:
> -- Hamas deliberately aimed countless rockets at civilians and at hospitals, schools and other gathering places of civilian gathering. This is a War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas in breach of a previous ceasefire invaded Israel. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- The Hamas terrorists were under specific instructions to attack the maximum numbers of civilians. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- The Hamas terrorists were under specific orders from their leadership to kill, maim, rape and burn alive as many civilians as possible. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- The Hamas invaders did kill, maim, rape and burn alive civilians including babies, some put alive in ovens to be cooked. War Crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas "fighters" (against unarmed civilians) were instructed to torture some before killing them. They cut a pregnant woman's womb open, and before her dashed her baby's head against a wall, then killed her. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- The Hamas invaders took 150 hostages, mainly civilians, and including citizens of many non-combatant nations. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> >
> 2. Since October 7th, Hamas has intentionally caused the greatest possible number of Palestinians (their own people!) to die as "collateral damage" to put pressure on "useful idiots" (Lenin) among their fellow-travellers in the West to call for ceasefires and an end to the war so Hamas rearm. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949. Here's an abbreviated list:
> __ Hamas deliberate built their headquarters and defensive positions under hospitals, schools, mosques. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas stopped the populace leaving the war zone. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas murdered some among those who t5ried to leave and turned the rest back to serve as shields and eventual "martyrs". War Crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas murdered some of the hostages. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas has continued rocket attacks specifically aimed at hospitals in Israel. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas uses Red Cross ambulances and other medically marked vehicles to transport their terrorists safely. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> >
> There's much are many more classes of war crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949 constantly committed by Hamas, it's Iranian backers and Hezbulla, but those will suffice to draw a contrast with Israel's humanitarian efforts to minimise loss of non-Hamas lives even in the middle of an existential war started by Hamas.
> >
> Israeli soldiers act under strict discipline not to shoot at civilians who do not threaten them. Israel consistently give away the benefit of surprise -- extremely valuable in any war and particularly in an urban guerrilla war, which well describes the cleaning out of the barbarians in Gaza. It is the civilians who heeded Israel's warnings --delivered by radio and television and the internet, even by personally addressed e-mail -- and tried to leave the city who Hamas turned back the survivors to serve as shields and "martyrs" for the barbaric "cause" of killing jews, after first killing enough to serve as an example for anyone else contemplating doing the human thing, running from a war zone. Israel's jet jockeys have given endless examples of calling off bombing runs at the very last moment when the presence of Hamas' "martyrs" was confirmed.
> >
> I salute you, Lou, for seeing, amidst all the hullaballoo from your terrorist-friendly to antisemitic local media, that Israel is a principled war fighter, and Hamas is a scum of degenerate deliberate war criminals, responsible among other War Crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949, for the "collateral damage" among their own people.
> >
> The sooner Israel clears the inhuman warmongers of Hamas out of Gaza, preferably dead so this saga can end forever, the sooner the world will regain some sanity and decency.
> >
> Andre Jute
> The bell tolls for Hamas.
> >
And Liebermann tells us that the Palestinians are poorly treated by Israeli soldiers. He thinks the prisoner exchange isn't a good idea if it doesn't include captured Hamas leaders so that they can repeat their crimes. I have sent many of his posting to the Israeli embassy many times. I wonder how long before they make him public for what he is?

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 3:22:40 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 7:30:16 PM UTC, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 7:10:44 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 9:36:12 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 4:51:00 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 10:16:56 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 10:43:50 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > > > > > On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > > > > > > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
> > > > > > > >Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
> > > > > > > Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> > > > > > > were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> > > > > > > that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> > > > > > > country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> > > > > > > Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> > > > > > > in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
> > > > > > > When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> > > > > > > lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> > > > > > > refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
> > > > > > > Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> > > > > > > they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> > > > > > > rich.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
> > > > > > > >their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
> > > > > > > Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> > > > > > > citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> > > > > > > <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> > > > > > > "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> > > > > > > elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> > > > > > > (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> > > > > > > The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> > > > > > > Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> > > > > > > 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> > > > > > > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > > > > > > PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > > > > > > Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> > > > > > > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
> > > > > > "The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > > > > > > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere. They were squatters on land held in mandate from the League of Nations by the British, and before that squatters on land in the Ottoman Empire so worthless that it wasn't worth collecting taxes there. The various aliya of Jewish Immigration, starting before WW1 and continuing in the interwar years, accelerating after the Holocaust, consisted of smallish numbers of Jews who bought pieces of land from the squatters, who were Arabs, Druze, and all kinds of odds and sods; the world didn't mind giving Palestine to the Jews because it was the dump of all the hopeless trash of the world; they weren't so keen on the Zionists! There was no Palestinian "state" as the boosters of Hamas terrorist and rapists -- and you, Liebermann -- claim. They all belonged to the British, who provided administration and security at least for commerce. The Palestinians didn't have the gumption to fight the British for the land but the Zionists did.The Jews have by far the best claim to the land as the survivors of the original inhabitants, thousands of years before Christ arrived. The Arabs, specifically the Islamists, are johnny-come-latelies; their religion, and with it their claim to the land arises because even later still they built one of their most important mosques on the site of the Hebrew Temple, wasn't even founded until the seventh century AD (what the politically correct idiots call the "common era" with a certain unintended irony). The other Arabs were actually happy to have the Palestinians in 1948 but the Palestinians soon proved themselves treacherous to their hosts and tried to take over their countries. King Hussein proved that he wasn't a limp dishcloth by riding in the first tank that went in to eject the Palestinians from what's now called Jordan, over the river into Israel. Arabs relish treachery when it succeeds but they're merciless to traitors who fail, and the Palestinians are iterative treacherous failures. Memories are long, so none of the other Arabs want the Palestinians. Even the Egyptians don't want Gaza, which Israel took from Egypt in one of the silly Arab wars on them to be a buffer zone, returned to them if they have to take the Palestinians with the land. The most effective fence around the Palestinians isn't the porous border between Israel and Gaza, but the armed fence the Egyptians put up to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. The Palestinians are pariahs because they've made themselves into pariah's. Sooner rather than later, they will stab Hizbollah and the Iranian fascist clerics in the back, too. If you have a beef with any of this, which all informed and educated people know, prove it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Andre Jute
> > > > > > It's embarrassing to have to explain these simple, obvious matters of incontrovertible history to American Jews over and over and over again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > The people most audibly against the Jewish presence in the Holy Land are American Jews who do not practice their religion and hate those who do. I wonder it is now that they know that they are headed straight for hell because they have made the choice of not following the rather complex laws laid down to them by God. Certainly Liebermann is headed for eternal agony.
> > > > If you believe in this fear mongering I'd be worried.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > Lou, this isn't "fear mongering". We see it now almost every day and many of the young people in this anti-Israeli-pro Palestinian protestors are Jews themselves believing that the FACT that their parents are Jewish somehow gives their false grievances validity. https://www.jta.org/2023/10/20/united-states/from-grief-to-rage-american-jews-are-struggling-with-how-to-feel-about-the-conflict-in-israel
> > >
> > > Out of sight out of mind and the Dutch people were "cleansed" of the "Jewish problem a few years ago so you can pretend that it was solved and that the assault on Israel and the probable overreaction of Israel was not warranted by Hamas.
> >
> > All I can say is that there is enormous amount of ‘collateral’ damage.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> I'm glad someone on RBT is calling attention to the crimes of Hamas, virtually all of which are crimes against civilians, what Lou calls "collateral damage". Here's a much truncated list, covering just the last six weeks:
> >
> 1. On October 7th 2023 alone:
> -- Hamas deliberately aimed countless rockets at civilians and at hospitals, schools and other gathering places of civilian gathering. This is a War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas in breach of a previous ceasefire invaded Israel. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- The Hamas terrorists were under specific instructions to attack the maximum numbers of civilians. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- The Hamas terrorists were under specific orders from their leadership to kill, maim, rape and burn alive as many civilians as possible. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- The Hamas invaders did kill, maim, rape and burn alive civilians including babies, some put alive in ovens to be cooked. War Crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas "fighters" (against unarmed civilians) were instructed to torture some before killing them. They cut a pregnant woman's womb open, and before her dashed her baby's head against a wall, then killed her. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- The Hamas invaders took 150 hostages, mainly civilians, and including citizens of many non-combatant nations. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> >
> 2. Since October 7th, Hamas has intentionally caused the greatest possible number of Palestinians (their own people!) to die as "collateral damage" to put pressure on "useful idiots" (Lenin) among their fellow-travellers in the West to call for ceasefires and an end to the war so Hamas rearm. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949. Here's an abbreviated list:
> __ Hamas deliberate built their headquarters and defensive positions under hospitals, schools, mosques. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas stopped the populace leaving the war zone. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas murdered some among those who t5ried to leave and turned the rest back to serve as shields and eventual "martyrs". War Crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas murdered some of the hostages. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas has continued rocket attacks specifically aimed at hospitals in Israel. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> -- Hamas uses Red Cross ambulances and other medically marked vehicles to transport their terrorists safely. War Crime under the Geneva Convention of 1949.
> >
> There's much are many more classes of war crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949 constantly committed by Hamas, it's Iranian backers and Hezbulla, but those will suffice to draw a contrast with Israel's humanitarian efforts to minimise loss of non-Hamas lives even in the middle of an existential war started by Hamas.
> >
> Israeli soldiers act under strict discipline not to shoot at civilians who do not threaten them. Israel consistently give away the benefit of surprise -- extremely valuable in any war and particularly in an urban guerrilla war, which well describes the cleaning out of the barbarians in Gaza. It is the civilians who heeded Israel's warnings --delivered by radio and television and the internet, even by personally addressed e-mail -- and tried to leave the city who Hamas turned back the survivors to serve as shields and "martyrs" for the barbaric "cause" of killing jews, after first killing enough to serve as an example for anyone else contemplating doing the human thing, running from a war zone. Israel's jet jockeys have given endless examples of calling off bombing runs at the very last moment when the presence of Hamas' "martyrs" was confirmed.
> >
> I salute you, Lou, for seeing, amidst all the hullaballoo from your terrorist-friendly to antisemitic local media, that Israel is a principled war fighter, and Hamas is a scum of degenerate deliberate war criminals, responsible among other War Crimes under the Geneva Convention of 1949, for the "collateral damage" among their own people.
> >
> The sooner Israel clears the inhuman warmongers of Hamas out of Gaza, preferably dead so this saga can end forever, the sooner the world will regain some sanity and decency.
> >
> Andre Jute
> The bell tolls for Hamas.
> >

On Friday, November 24, 2023 at 3:08:55 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 24 Nov 2023 10:17:18 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> People in Israel, Liebermann likewise. The Palestinians that fled to
> >> Israel are free and happy and getting rich.
> >
> > Wrong. The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> > Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence. The Arabs
> > were so certain that they would win the war and exterminate the Jews
> > that they invited the Arabs living in Israel to temporarily leave the
> > country until the Arabs had taken over. So, most of the Arabs went to
> > Lebanon, Syria and mostly Jordan where they waited for the war to end
> > in numerous refugee camps. Unfortunately for them, the Arabs lost.
> > When the Palestinians asked Israel if they could return and pickup the
> > lives and properties from where they were prior to the war, Israel
> > refused. Thus, the Palestinians became refugees or displaced people.
> > Their "friends" in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt did want them, so
> > they became non-citizens. The Palestinians were hardly free, happy or
> > rich.
> >
> Indeed with the various Israel wars the Palestinians arguably where a
> justification than a reason in of themselves and so on. Yom Kippur War
> seems to be mostly about getting some military pride back, mainly Egypt.
> Who absolutely did not want Gaza back!
> >> Yes, they cannot vote but Israel is not going to give away
> >> their own freedom simply because their opponents have a majority.
> >
> > Wrong. This would be the 2nd time I've mentioned that Palestinian
> > citizens of Israel have voting in Israeli elections since 1949.
> > <https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
> > "Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
> > elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949"
> >
> > There are also several Arab and Palestinian coalitions in the Knesset
> > (parliament). Note the list on the above URL and at:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
> > The United Arab List currently holds 5 seats out of 120 in the
> > Knesset. At one time, the United Arab Joint List held 15 seats out of
> > 120. The Arab coalitions are a mess:
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List>
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Roger Merriman

Palastinian members of the Knesset have strict limitations put on them. They in fact are not free to act as Israeli members are. This is Lieberman's definition of being elected. Any other time he would be decrying this (most of the Palastinian politicians are socialist or outright communist, though not to the extent of giving women's right a hearing) but he said this for one reason - to infer that I was wrong while like the lying sack of shit he is he will lie about how equal the Palestinians are in Israel. Why they even have the right to vote!

On Sunday, November 26, 2023 at 8:16:05 PM UTC, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 22:16:53 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >This from Liebermann is more than just careless and ignorant, it is just another way of saying From the sea to the river...:
> >"The original Palestinians were residents and citizens of
> >> Palestine or Israel prior to the 1948 war of independence."
> >>
> >Where do you get this ignorant shit from, Liebermann? Certainly not from your relatives in Israel, who I bet are disgusted when you claim to be a Jew.
> Between 1918 and 1948, the residents of what was then called
> Palestine, were a mix of nationalities mostly consisting of those left
> over from the Ottoman Empire.
>
What I said. Do you have a point, Liebermann, or are you just rattling on for the sound of your own voice?
>
>Palestine was a British colony and was
> called Palestine for convenience.
>
What I said. Do you have a point, Liebermann, or are you just rattling on for the sound of your own voice?
>
>After the UN partition, it was
> called Israel by the UN and the supporters of Israel, and continued to
> be called Palestine by most everyone else.
>
Irrelevant. Do you have a point, Liebermann, or are you just rattling on for the sound of your own voice?
>
> When the Arab residents of
> Israel made the mistake of leaving Israel for a vacation in the
> neighboring countries, they continued to call it Palestine even though
> they were officially residents of Israel.
>
That's the whole point, that they didn't have proof identifying them as citizens. You're the one trying to make an argument on bureaucratic points, sport, so I'm just answering you in kind.
>
> When Israel refused to let
> them return to Israel,
>
Israel, under threat of overwhelming force from all the Arab nations, had no reason to let in people who had made it clear they were their mortal enemies.

>they became displaced people and continued to
> call themselves Palestinians.
>
How was whatever they called themselves relevant to anything? Where are their passports, their Foreign Office? Do you have a point, Liebermann, or are you just rattling on for the sound of your own voice?
>
> >The Palestinians were not "citizens" of anywhere.
> One is not a citizen of a place.
>
Crap. I was a passport less refugee for several years, sport. I know all about passports and other identity papers and the concepts behind them. You don't know what you're talking about.
>
>One is considered a citizen of a
> country and a government.
>
What I said. Do you have a point, Liebermann, or are you just rattling on for the sound of your own voice?
>
>For simplicity, I consider a country to be
> something recognized by the UN as being a country.
>
Dumb but, worse, pointless.
>
>The Palestinian
> state did not exist until 1988, when it declared itself to be a
> country:
> <https://www.un.org/unispal/history/
>
Exactly.
>
So now can Palestinians be refugees if they are citizens of a state and they are in the state? Riddle me that. You're wasting my time, Liebermann.
>
> Incidentally, neither Israel or Egypt want Gaza.
> <https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/gaza-strip-israel-hamas-war-demographics>
> "Israel, with the support of Egypt, imposed a land, sea and air
> blockade of Gaza in 2007 after Hamas took control of the enclave.
> Because of the blockade, Gaza is still considered occupied by Israel,
> according to the UN."
>
> In 1967 Israel took the entire Sinai Peninsula which was part of
> Egypt. In 1978, as part of the Camp David accords, Israel agreed to
> give back the Sinai Peninsula which included Gaza. Egypt refused the
> offer declaring that Gaza was never part of Egypt. See map:
> <https://www.the-map-as-history.com/History-of-Middle-East-20th-century/continuation-of-the-israeli-arab-conflict>
> "...after 6 days of war, the Israeli troops had taken control of the
> Golan Heights in Syria, the West Bank, Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula."
>
The Palestinians brought their woes on themselves, with a little help from Arab nations who liked to have the "poor Palestinians" as a flail to whip the Western conscience. For three quarters of a century, instead of making a home for themselves, as Israel did and would have been delighted to help the Palestinians do for themselves, the Palestinian no-hopers have spent the world's largesse on trying to kill Jews.
>
> The rest of your rant (below), I mostly agree with your comments. I
> need to read it in detail, extract the irrelevant flowery language and
> concentrate on the few facts that are left.
>
Snip of more pointlessly argumentative crap. You do your thing, Liebermann, and I'll do something useful rather than reading more transparent efforts at scoring a point by rephrasing what I already said.
>
Andre Jute
What a waste of time Liebermann is.

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 15:39:50 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>And Liebermann tells us that the Palestinians are poorly treated by Israeli soldiers. He thinks the prisoner exchange isn't a good idea if it doesn't include captured Hamas leaders so that they can repeat their crimes. I have sent many of his posting to the Israeli embassy many times. I wonder how long before they make him public for what he is?

Looks like you're might be in need of additional attention. That
should be easy to fix.

I previously mentioned that I might understand why almost everything
you post is wrong:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/Rt6jXZ29RFI/m/J4PZ5ylGAQAJ>
You want to pretend to be and recognized as an authority and an expert
on many topics. However, with the Gaza problem, you now demonstrate
that you are going against the consensus. All you want to do is argue
and attract the most attention. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks
as long as you can announce that you've taken an opposing view.

Don't you find it odd that Andre and I have very similar opinions
about Hamas, Gaza and perhaps Israel? By vilifying me, do you plan to
also do the same to Andre? Are you going to send his postings to the
Israeli embassy? Do you really care if your credibility is
sufficiently bad that nobody will believe anything you write (as long
as you can attract attention)? Or are you trying to goad me into
writing something I might later regret?

Anyway, please let me know how writing to the Israeli embassy works
for you. This might help:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_serum>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 16:08:36 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Palastinian members of the Knesset have strict limitations put on them. They in fact are not free to act as Israeli members are.

I can usually tell when you're lying. You ALWAYS add the word "fact"
to your allegations.
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=fact+author%3ATom+author%3AKunich>

So, what are these strict limitations on the Palestinian members of
the Knesset?

Incidentally, it's Palestinian, not Palastinian.

>This is Lieberman's definition of being elected.

I'm not running for office.

>Any other time he would be decrying this (most of the Palastinian
>politicians are socialist or outright communist,

Amazing. Would it help if I mention that Israel was a socialist
country for a time? So was the United Kingdom and India. The main
socialist party in Israel was Mapai until it merged with the Labor
party in 1968. As far as I know, the only socialist party with seats
in the Knesset is Labor Party:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel>
Actually, they're the "social democrats and labor Zionist" party.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Labor_Party>
Support for the Labor Party and their socialist agenda isn't doing
well:
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Israeli_Labor_seat_decline.png>

>though not to
>the extent of giving women's right a hearing) but he said this
>for one reason - to infer that I was wrong while like the lying sack of shit he is he will lie about how equal the Palestinians are in Israel. Why they even have the right to vote!

You're lying, as usual. Do you have any quotes where I said anything
about women's rights in RBT? Good luck finding anything. I know
little about women's rights issues in Israel.

I suspect you might be trying write something profound in the above
paragraph, but I can't determine what it might be.

Am I reading this correctly? You're searching for "victims" so that
you can join them and claim that you've been exploited in some manner?
I don't think that will work very well. There's little benefit to
being a victim.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 16:36:37 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 15:39:50 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>And Liebermann tells us that the Palestinians are poorly
treated by Israeli soldiers. He thinks the prisoner exchange isn't a
good idea if it doesn't include captured Hamas leaders so that they
can repeat their crimes. I have sent many of his posting to the
Israeli embassy many times. I wonder how long before they make him
public for what he is?
>
>Looks like you're might be in need of additional attention. That
>should be easy to fix.
>
>I previously mentioned that I might understand why almost everything
>you post is wrong:
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/Rt6jXZ29RFI/m/J4PZ5ylGAQAJ>
>You want to pretend to be and recognized as an authority and an expert
>on many topics. However, with the Gaza problem, you now demonstrate
>that you are going against the consensus. All you want to do is argue
>and attract the most attention. It doesn't matter what anyone thinks
>as long as you can announce that you've taken an opposing view.
>
>Don't you find it odd that Andre and I have very similar opinions
>about Hamas, Gaza and perhaps Israel? By vilifying me, do you plan to
>also do the same to Andre? Are you going to send his postings to the
>Israeli embassy? Do you really care if your credibility is
>sufficiently bad that nobody will believe anything you write (as long
>as you can attract attention)? Or are you trying to goad me into
>writing something I might later regret?
>
>Anyway, please let me know how writing to the Israeli embassy works
>for you. This might help:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_serum>

Gee... I wasn't aware the Israeli Embassy "makes people public". What
do they do? Send a report back to Jerusalem? Or would that be
"Jerusalem, New York"?

Tom, you ARE getting worse. See your psychiatrists! Right away!
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 09:21:19 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Gee... I wasn't aware the Israeli Embassy "makes people public". What
>do they do? Send a report back to Jerusalem? Or would that be
>"Jerusalem, New York"?

I thought Tom meant "make my writings public" or something similar.
Making my writings public won't do much because everything on Usenet
is already public.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/26/2023 7:36 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> It doesn't matter what anyone thinks
> as long as you can announce that you've taken an opposing view.

That does seem to be a big part of Tom's psychology.

--
- Frank Krygowski

> >Gee... I wasn't aware the Israeli Embassy "makes people public". What
> >do they do? Send a report back to Jerusalem? Or would that be
> >"Jerusalem, New York"?
> I thought Tom meant "make my writings public" or something similar.
> Making my writings public won't do much because everything on Usenet
> is already public.

Maybe the word psychiatrist got dropped and it should have read "make people's psychiatrist public" (or psychiatristS in Slocomb's case)

On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 4:28:10 AM UTC, Doug Landau wrote:
> > >Gee... I wasn't aware the Israeli Embassy "makes people public". What
> > >do they do? Send a report back to Jerusalem? Or would that be
> > >"Jerusalem, New York"?
> > I thought Tom meant "make my writings public" or something similar.
> > Making my writings public won't do much because everything on Usenet
> > is already public.
> Maybe the word psychiatrist got dropped and it should have read "make people's psychiatrist public" (or psychiatristS in Slocomb's case)
>
Mmm. I've never practiced on individuals (I practiced mass motivation in advertising instead), but I can easily see that any perfectly normal person attending more than one psychiatrist simultaneously would soon emerge perfectly schizophrenic! -- AJ
>