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tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: How much current to kill an insect?

SubjectAuthor
* How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
+* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Mike Coon
|+* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
||`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Mike Coon
|| `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
|`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?g_wolf
| +* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Mike Coon
| |`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?jlarkin
| | +* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
| | |`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Mike Coon
| | | `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
| | `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Mike Coon
| `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?John S
|  `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Mike Coon
`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?jlarkin
 +* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 |`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?John Larkin
 | +* Re: How much current to kill an insect?John Walliker
 | |+* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Phil Hobbs
 | ||+- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | ||`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?John Larkin
 | || +* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | || |+* Re: How much current to kill an insect?John Larkin
 | || ||`- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | || |`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Mike Coon
 | || | `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | || |  `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Mike Coon
 | || |   `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | || `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Phil Hobbs
 | |+* Re: How much current to kill an insect?John Larkin
 | ||`- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | |+* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | ||+* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Phil Hobbs
 | |||`- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | ||`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | || `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Ed Lee
 | ||  `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | ||   `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Ed Lee
 | ||    `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | ||     `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Ed Lee
 | ||      `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | ||       `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Ed Lee
 | ||        `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | ||         `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Ed Lee
 | ||          `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | ||           `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Ed Lee
 | |+- Re: How much current to kill an insect?DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
 | |`- Re: How much current to kill an insect?John S
 | +* Re: How much current to kill an insect?whit3rd
 | |`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?John Larkin
 | | +* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | | |+* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Lasse Langwadt Christensen
 | | ||`- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | | |`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?jlarkin
 | | | `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | | `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Jan Panteltje
 | +- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | +- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Phil Allison
 | +* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Martin Brown
 | |`* Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | | `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?bitrex
 | |  `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 | `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?John S
 |  `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey
 +- Re: How much current to kill an insect?DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
 `* Re: How much current to kill an insect?John S
  `- Re: How much current to kill an insect?Commander Kinsey

Pages:123
Re: How much current to kill an insect?

<t54hu8$46c$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: Decadent...@decadence.org
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 01:27:37 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Decadent...@decadence.org - Sat, 7 May 2022 01:27 UTC

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:epha7h51vj4dlf31dhoui1tvt7di4qoem1@4ax.com:

> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes
>>2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have
>>measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying
>>wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action
>>yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much
>>current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to
>>kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects
>>the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I
>>could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I
>>don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start
>>with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
>>continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives
>>out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn
>>it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which
>>may draw a bit).
>
> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>
> The cap charging current is likely microamps.

It is the fact that an arc went through the insect. It does not
matter how much juice. ANY amount capable of arcing through the
'flesh' of the insect is enough to 'zap' it. If it is generated, not
electrostatic,it is enough. even a static zap kills them if they are
part of the path.

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

<t54ink$ffj$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: Decadent...@decadence.org
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 01:41:08 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Decadent...@decadence.org - Sat, 7 May 2022 01:41 UTC

John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote in
news:e03541ea-d7d2-417a-a8af-0eef526f9432n@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100,
>> ><jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com>
> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>> >> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which
>> >>> makes 200
> 0V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured
> those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I
> haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and
> I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is
> required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a
> human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the
> death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could
> connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't
> want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with.
> The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't
> continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives
> out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn
> it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which
> may draw a bit).
>> >>
>> >> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>> >>
>> >> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
>> >
>> >Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0
>> >instantly, I do
> ubt there's a cap in it.
>> It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.
>> >
>> >The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly
>> >connected to
> the rails.
>> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
>>
>> One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
>> threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a
>> mosquito.
>>
> These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a
> capacitor into the insect. This is no longer considered a good
> idea because if the insect explodes too violently the
> bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed over a wide area. It is
> much better just to cook them without fragmentation. I did once
> come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find
> it. John

Bug zappers had no caps. They discharged into bugs because bug
completed the path for the HV potential which was sitting on the
rails. The zap sound is because the bug made a momentary complete
circuit for the voltage to arc across the gap... through the bug.

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

<f4nb7h1j9kgmko5hc3me5tsium4cuikdk0@4ax.com>

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From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 19:46:05 -0700
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sat, 7 May 2022 02:46 UTC

On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:54:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
<CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:07:32 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [about a bug zapper]
>>>
>>>> >The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
>>>
>>>> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
>>>
>>> The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
>>> in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal
>>> power transformer.
>>
>> Any 60 Hz
>
>50, I live in the modern world.
>
>> transformer that makes kilovolts is going to be huge. Loose
>> coupling and potting make them huger.
>
>Only huge if high power. Mine is about 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches.
>
>> The old neon sign transformers were huge; the modern one are high
>> frequency oscillators. The old ones looked nicer for some reason.
>
>The light output or the circuit looked nicer?

The light in the neon tubes looked better with 60 Hz HV AC, sharper.
The RF ones look fake and fuzzy.

>
>> When I was a kid I had an infinite supply of used neon sign
>> transformers. Fun. The double-ended 18 KV was my favorite, but it must
>> have weighed 20 pounds.
>
>How many friends did you torture with it?

Darn, I clean forgot to do that.

>
>> The old oil-filled car ignition transformers were cool too, driven
>> from an oil cap through a thyratron. 3" sparks.
>
>Could you kill someone with those? I've been told that contrary to popular belief, the "modern" ones from the 90s (pre electronic ignition) didn't have enough current to kill you. I heard of one mechanic grabbing one, he couldn't let go but he was unharmed.

A car spark is roughly 50 millijoules per shot. Painful but not
deadly.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

<t5511a$ks$1@dont-email.me>

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From: pNaonStp...@yahoo.com (Jan Panteltje)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 05:45:13 GMT
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 by: Jan Panteltje - Sat, 7 May 2022 05:45 UTC

On a sunny day (Fri, 06 May 2022 15:07:32 -0700) it happened John Larkin
<jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
<sj6b7hd88904ik2u3dibpdm167o752td4g@4ax.com>:

>On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>[about a bug zapper]
>>
>>> >The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
>>
>>> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
>>
>>The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
>>in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal
>>power transformer.
>>
>
>Any 60 Hz transformer that makes kilovolts is going to be huge. Loose
>coupling and potting make them huger.
>
>The old neon sign transformers were huge; the modern one are high
>frequency oscillators. The old ones looked nicer for some reason.
>
>When I was a kid I had an infinite supply of used neon sign
>transformers. Fun. The double-ended 18 KV was my favorite, but it must
>have weighed 20 pounds.
>
>The old oil-filled car ignition transformers were cool too, driven
>from an oil cap through a thyratron. 3" sparks.

I have a blue light bug killer, it is just a small voltage multiplier (small value caps)
feeding 2 parallel wires about a few mm apart wound around a blue lightbulb.
The caps discharge kills the bug (you can short the wires with a screwdriver and see the sparks).
The small value of the caps (few hundred nF) limits the current at 50 Hz.
Very simple thing, quite effective, was cheap.
As usual curiosity had me open it up an look at the circuit.
Been working fine for about years.

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

<6080e8f4-3472-4ddd-9505-849caab519f8n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
From: palliso...@gmail.com (Phil Allison)
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 by: Phil Allison - Sat, 7 May 2022 06:16 UTC

John Larkin wrote:

================
>
> One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
> threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.
>

** But can you kill a millipede with milliamps ?

https://a-z-animals.com/blog/giant-african-millipede-the-pros-and-cons-of-this-exotic-pet/

...... Phil

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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 by: g_wolf - Sat, 7 May 2022 07:05 UTC

On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
> In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
> requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>
> Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
> not a current.
>
> BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
> offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she
> swoops and bites...

Cool ! What kinda spider you got. :-)

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 08:57:01 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Sat, 7 May 2022 07:57 UTC

On 06/05/2022 19:43, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>>>
>>> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>>>
>>> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
>>
>> Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
>
> It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.
>
>>
>> The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
>
> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.

They are potentially. But the safety interlocks are quite good to stop
humans whilst still allowing flies and insects free access.

A stately home come country house hotel was seriously damaged by an
accumulation of dead flies in such a device a couple of years back.

You can smell burning insect it it gets a particularly big moth. UV
fluoro light trap and HT bars - looks to me like a neon driver
transformer soa couple of mA at a fairly high voltage.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-29702125

We have them in our VH. Emptying the dead fly trays was moved up the
important routine checks list after that fire.
>
> One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
> threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.

It is the heavier insects that smell the worst and sometimes catch fire.
Wings of moths seem to be the most dodgy for that.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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From: grav...@mjcoon.plus.com (Mike Coon)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 10:36:21 +0100
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 by: Mike Coon - Sat, 7 May 2022 09:36 UTC

In article <op.1lrt7ibcmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
>
> I live in Scotland. If you don't, you don't know what a mosquito is.

I'm waiting for a Scot to invent a small dirigible modelled on a basking
shark crossed with a Dyson vacuum. It would patrol up and down hoovering
up the midges into a net...

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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From: grav...@mjcoon.plus.com (Mike Coon)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 10:41:01 +0100
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 by: Mike Coon - Sat, 7 May 2022 09:41 UTC

In article <2TodK.6666$t72a.1025@fx10.iad>, g_wolf@howl.com says...
>
> On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
> > In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
> > requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
> >
> > Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
> > not a current.
> >
> > BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
> > offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she
> > swoops and bites...
>
> Cool ! What kinda spider you got. :-)

It's called a noble false widow
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatoda_nobilis). Not native to the UK
but spreading. When they have egg sacs that hatch into armies of
spiderlings that is when they get hoovered up...

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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From: Soph...@invalid.org (John S)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 06:19:37 -0500
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 by: John S - Sat, 7 May 2022 11:19 UTC

On 5/7/2022 2:05 AM, g_wolf wrote:
> On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
>> In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
>> requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart.  I could connect a
>> milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break
>> the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with.  The USB one states
>> 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA,
>> unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from
>> 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic
>> voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>>
>> Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
>> not a current.
>>
>> BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
>> offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she
>> swoops and bites...
>
> Cool ! What kinda  spider you got. :-)

Wolf spider?

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
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 by: John S - Sat, 7 May 2022 11:21 UTC

On 5/6/2022 11:06 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>
> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>
> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
>

Sure. Try killing a spider with 1J at 1V.

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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From: Soph...@invalid.org (John S)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 06:23:16 -0500
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 by: John S - Sat, 7 May 2022 11:23 UTC

On 5/6/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>>>
>>> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>>>
>>> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
>>
>> Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
>
> It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.
>
>>
>> The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
>
> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
>
> One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
> threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.
>

....if the voltage is high enough.

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
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 by: John S - Sat, 7 May 2022 11:24 UTC

On 5/6/2022 2:02 PM, John Walliker wrote:
> On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>>>>
>>>> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>>>>
>>>> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
>>>
>>> Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
>> It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.
>>>
>>> The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
>> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
>>
>> One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
>> threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.
>>
> These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
> into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the
> insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
> over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without fragmentation.
> I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I can find it.
> John

Oh, pretty please. It would be fun to read it.

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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From: grav...@mjcoon.plus.com (Mike Coon)
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Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:07:52 +0100
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 by: Mike Coon - Sat, 7 May 2022 13:07 UTC

In article <t55kki$ae$1@dont-email.me>, Sophi.2@invalid.org says...
>
> On 5/7/2022 2:05 AM, g_wolf wrote:
> > On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
> >> In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
> >> requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart.  I could connect a
> >> milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break
> >> the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with.  The USB one states
> >> 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA,
> >> unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from
> >> 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic
> >> voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
> >>
> >> Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
> >> not a current.
> >>
> >> BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
> >> offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she
> >> swoops and bites...
> >
> > Cool ! What kinda  spider you got. :-)
>
>
> Wolf spider?

No. But in season I know where to find Wasp Spiders. But I don't take
them home!

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sat, 7 May 2022 14:32 UTC

On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:41:01 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com>
wrote:

>In article <2TodK.6666$t72a.1025@fx10.iad>, g_wolf@howl.com says...
>>
>> On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
>> > In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
>> > requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>> >
>> > Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
>> > not a current.
>> >
>> > BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
>> > offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she
>> > swoops and bites...
>>
>> Cool ! What kinda spider you got. :-)
>
>It's called a noble false widow
>(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatoda_nobilis). Not native to the UK
>but spreading. When they have egg sacs that hatch into armies of
>spiderlings that is when they get hoovered up...

I wonder what this is:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/e7q18eo1al8n3x4/Take-out.jpg?raw=1

We have almost no insects inside. The few spiders eat all the rest.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:38 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 01:29:19 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 07 May 2022 00:58:20 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 07 May 2022 00:56:42 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:43:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bacteria-laden fragments over a wide area? From a mosquito whose total
>>>> mass is a few milligrams?
>>>>
>>>> Sure must be peaceful where you live, if that's the biggest worry. ;)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>>> Speak for yourself. Where I grew up, the mosquitoes were as big as
>>> chickens.
>>
>> I live in Scotland. If you don't, you don't know what a mosquito is.
>
> We hunted them with shotguns.

https://youtu.be/BHBbJAIcnBI

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:39 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 01:48:53 +0100, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100,
>>>> <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>> >> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes
>>>> 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured
>>>> those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I
>>>> haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm
>>>> wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required
>>>> to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through
>>>> the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires
>>>> evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a
>>>> milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break
>>>> the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states
>>>> 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA,
>>>> unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from
>>>> 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic
>>>> voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
>>>> >
>>>> >Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly,
>>>> I doubt there's a cap in it.
>>>> It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.
>>>> >
>>>> >The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected
>>>> to the rails.
>>>> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
>>>>
>>>> One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
>>>> threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.
>>>>
>>> These devices used to make a loud noise as they discharged a capacitor
>>> into the insect. This is no longer considered a good idea because if the
>>> insect explodes too violently the bacteria-laden fragments are dispersed
>>> over a wide area. It is much better just to cook them without
>>> fragmentation.
>>> I did once come across a standard for such devices - I will see if I
>>> can find it.
>>> John
>>
>> That would be why the decent one I have fries them gently, while the
>> cheap Chinese USB one uses a capacitor.
>
> Mine give a nice satisfying 120-hertz-plus-harmonics bzzzaaappp.

Girly high frequency. We have the more masculine 100 Hz.

> "Die, mozzie scum!" ;)
>
> They also have mushroom oil (octenol) pads on the bottom.

What? The mosquitoes or the zapper?

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:40 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 03:46:05 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:54:15 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:07:32 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 12:16:10 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 11:44:05 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [about a bug zapper]
>>>>
>>>>> >The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
>>>>
>>>>> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
>>>>
>>>> The 'transformer' may be a potted circuit, with current limits like
>>>> in a neon transformer. It won't be tightly line-coupled like an ideal
>>>> power transformer.
>>>
>>> Any 60 Hz
>>
>> 50, I live in the modern world.
>>
>>> transformer that makes kilovolts is going to be huge. Loose
>>> coupling and potting make them huger.
>>
>> Only huge if high power. Mine is about 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches x 1.5 inches.
>>
>>> The old neon sign transformers were huge; the modern one are high
>>> frequency oscillators. The old ones looked nicer for some reason.
>>
>> The light output or the circuit looked nicer?
>
> The light in the neon tubes looked better with 60 Hz HV AC, sharper.
> The RF ones look fake and fuzzy.

I hate flicker. In the days of CRTs, I always chose 90Hz ones.

>>> When I was a kid I had an infinite supply of used neon sign
>>> transformers. Fun. The double-ended 18 KV was my favorite, but it must
>>> have weighed 20 pounds.
>>
>> How many friends did you torture with it?
>
> Darn, I clean forgot to do that.

How absurd.

>>> The old oil-filled car ignition transformers were cool too, driven
>>> from an oil cap through a thyratron. 3" sparks.
>>
>> Could you kill someone with those? I've been told that contrary to popular belief, the "modern" ones from the 90s (pre electronic ignition) didn't have enough current to kill you. I heard of one mechanic grabbing one, he couldn't let go but he was unharmed.
>
> A car spark is roughly 50 millijoules per shot. Painful but not
> deadly.

What about if you grabbed it for some time?

What if an evil friend revved the engine up?

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:42 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 08:57:01 +0100, Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> On 06/05/2022 19:43, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>>>>
>>>> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>>>>
>>>> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
>>>
>>> Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
>>
>> It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.
>>
>>>
>>> The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
>>
>> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
>
> They are potentially. But the safety interlocks are quite good to stop
> humans whilst still allowing flies and insects free access.
>
> A stately home come country house hotel was seriously damaged by an
> accumulation of dead flies in such a device a couple of years back.
>
> You can smell burning insect it it gets a particularly big moth. UV
> fluoro light trap and HT bars - looks to me like a neon driver
> transformer soa couple of mA at a fairly high voltage.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-29702125
>
> We have them in our VH. Emptying the dead fly trays was moved up the
> important routine checks list after that fire.

I empty mine twice a year, whether it needs it or not.

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:46 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 10:36:21 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:

> In article <op.1lrt7ibcmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
>>
>> I live in Scotland. If you don't, you don't know what a mosquito is.
>
> I'm waiting for a Scot to invent a small dirigible modelled on a basking
> shark crossed with a Dyson vacuum. It would patrol up and down hoovering
> up the midges into a net...

ROFL! Actually there have been many attempts to cull mosquitoes, or midges, can't remember which, in Scotland. Can't find a link since those sort of searches are flooded out with how to stop them getting you on holiday.

I have the answer. Lifesystems Expedition 100+ - a spray you put on your bare flesh. Nothing will land on you. Even works on horses - I recommended it to a horser around here and she tried it! Keeps the flies off them.

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

<op.1ls4wwknmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:47 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 12:21:46 +0100, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:

> On 5/6/2022 11:06 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>>
>> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>>
>> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
>>
>
> Sure. Try killing a spider with 1J at 1V.

Where did 1V come from?

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

<op.1ls4xlxqmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:47 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 12:23:16 +0100, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:

> On 5/6/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>>>>
>>>> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>>>>
>>>> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
>>>
>>> Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
>>
>> It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.
>>
>>>
>>> The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
>>
>> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
>>
>> One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
>> threshold of death. I'd guess that 1 joule would take out a mosquito.
>>
>
> ...if the voltage is high enough.

It's 1700, I measured it.

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

<op.1ls4y8e1mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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Subject: Re: How much current to kill an insect?
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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:48 UTC

On Sat, 07 May 2022 15:32:27 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 7 May 2022 10:41:01 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>> In article <2TodK.6666$t72a.1025@fx10.iad>, g_wolf@howl.com says...
>>>
>>> On 5/6/2022 10:31 AM, Mike Coon wrote:
>>> > In article <op.1lqyzpe3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>, CK1@nospam.com says...
>>> > requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>>> >
>>> > Is your electrostatic voltmeter leaky? It should only "draw" a charge,
>>> > not a current.
>>> >
>>> > BTW I don't want my wasps fried, because then the spider to which I
>>> > offer them is not interested. They have to wake up and flutter, then she
>>> > swoops and bites...
>>>
>>> Cool ! What kinda spider you got. :-)
>>
>> It's called a noble false widow
>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steatoda_nobilis). Not native to the UK
>> but spreading. When they have egg sacs that hatch into armies of
>> spiderlings that is when they get hoovered up...
>
> I wonder what this is:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/e7q18eo1al8n3x4/Take-out.jpg?raw=1
>
> We have almost no insects inside. The few spiders eat all the rest.

I kill the insects to starve the spiders.

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

<op.1ls5yaq3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 7 May 2022 17:09 UTC

On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:02:40 +0100, Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>> >> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
>>> >>
>>> >> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
>>> >>
>>> >> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
>>> >
>>> >Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
>>> It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.
>>> >
>>> >The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
>>> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
>>>
>>> One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
>>> threshold of death.

Strange way to measure it. If you took 9 joules over a period of 1 hour, it wouldn't kill you. Surely current is a better measure? 80mA stops the heart I believe, which is why breakers trip at 30 or 50.

Re: How much current to kill an insect?

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 by: Ed Lee - Sat, 7 May 2022 18:01 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 10:09:46 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Fri, 06 May 2022 23:02:40 +0100, Commander Kinsey <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 06 May 2022 20:02:11 +0100, John Walliker <jrwal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Friday, 6 May 2022 at 19:44:05 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:40:45 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> >>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> >On Fri, 06 May 2022 17:06:28 +0100, <jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> On Fri, 06 May 2022 13:44:03 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> >>> >> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> I'm talking about the bug zappers. I have a mains one which makes 2000V. I have a USB one which makes 1700V. I can and have measured those. The mains one is very effective, I see it frying wasps. I haven't had the opportunity to see the USB one in action yet and I'm wondering if it will do anything useful. How much current is required to kill the insect? I know 80mA+ is needed to kill a human through the heart, but I get the feeling with insects the death requires evaporation, not just stopping the heart. I could connect a milliammeter across the USB one's output, but I don't want to break the meter if there's a strong pulse to start with. The USB one states 1A 5V input, so the output couldn't continuously exceed only 3mA, unless it drops to 100V and gives out 50mA, and the output drops from 1700V to 0V immediately I turn it off (with an antique electrostatic voltmeter connected which may draw a bit).
> >>> >>
> >>> >> It's energy, from a capacitor, not current that kills bugs.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> The cap charging current is likely microamps.
> >>> >
> >>> >Since when I unplug the USB cord, the voltage drops to 0 instantly, I doubt there's a cap in it.
> >>> It wouldn't be hard to measure. Or google.
> >>> >
> >>> >The mains one is just a 240V to 2000V transformer directly connected to the rails.
> >>> That sounds lethal to bugs and to humans. And a fire hazard.
> >>>
> >>> One outfit that I work with considers 9 joules the be the human
> >>> threshold of death.
> Strange way to measure it. If you took 9 joules over a period of 1 hour, it wouldn't kill you. Surely current is a better measure? 80mA stops the heart I believe, which is why breakers trip at 30 or 50.

Circuit breakers trip at 30A or 50A, right?

So, is 600W (200V 3A) battery safe? I got shocked a few times, especially when my fingers are wet. It wasn't bad enough to kill me, or i would not be posting this.

I plan to have banks of 200V batteries attached to either side of the car door. In addition to better weight distribution, nobody should touch both (400V) at the same time. Furthermore, i can eject the doors in case of fire..

How about 200V 10A, 20A or 30A?

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