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tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: Fast PNP?

SubjectAuthor
* Fast PNP?Phil Hobbs
+* Re: Fast PNP?jlarkin
|`* Re: Fast PNP?Phil Hobbs
| `* Re: Fast PNP?Gerhard Hoffmann
|  `- Re: Fast PNP?Phil Hobbs
+* Re: Fast PNP?jlarkin
|`* Re: Fast PNP?Phil Hobbs
| `- Re: Fast PNP?John Larkin
`* Re: Fast PNP?piglet
 `- Re: Fast PNP?Phil Hobbs

1
Fast PNP?

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From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Fast PNP?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 10:20:56 -0400
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Tue, 10 May 2022 14:20 UTC

Hi, all,

A couple of years ago the last mainstream maker (NXP) stopped making the
last fast PNP--the 5-GHz BFT92--thus depriving some of us of valuable
design space, e.g. for improving the transconductance of FET bootstraps
by wrapping a much faster PNP around it.

A BF862 or CPH3910 with a BFT92 wraparound makes a 750-MHz FET with 10x
the transconductance but about the same noise. Magic.

I have ~9k BFT92s in stock, so I'm set for anything I might want to do
myself, but for customer designs it's more of a worry. Not too long
ago, the NTE2403 was announced, but stock seems to be, *ahem*, thin.

I ran across this datasheet:
<http://www.unisonic.com.tw/datasheet/2SA1977.pdf>, which is marked
"preliminary" and dated 2021. It's apparently a closeish second source
for the long lost Renesas/NEC 2SA1977, which was even faster than the
BFT92 (8 GHz f_T).

Anybody know anything about this outfit? I've never heard of them.

Thanks

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: Fast PNP?

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From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Fast PNP?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 07:33:03 -0700
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Tue, 10 May 2022 14:33 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 10:20:56 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>Hi, all,
>
>A couple of years ago the last mainstream maker (NXP) stopped making the
>last fast PNP--the 5-GHz BFT92--thus depriving some of us of valuable
>design space, e.g. for improving the transconductance of FET bootstraps
>by wrapping a much faster PNP around it.
>
>A BF862 or CPH3910 with a BFT92 wraparound makes a 750-MHz FET with 10x
>the transconductance but about the same noise. Magic.
>
>I have ~9k BFT92s in stock, so I'm set for anything I might want to do
>myself, but for customer designs it's more of a worry. Not too long
>ago, the NTE2403 was announced, but stock seems to be, *ahem*, thin.
>
>I ran across this datasheet:
><http://www.unisonic.com.tw/datasheet/2SA1977.pdf>, which is marked
>"preliminary" and dated 2021. It's apparently a closeish second source
>for the long lost Renesas/NEC 2SA1977, which was even faster than the
>BFT92 (8 GHz f_T).
>
>Anybody know anything about this outfit? I've never heard of them.
>
>Thanks
>
>Phil Hobbs

Here too:

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/renesas-electronics-america-inc/2SA1977-T1B-A/11550285

I've had to redesign a few products that used fast pnp's in SOT-89.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Fast PNP?

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From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Fast PNP?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 08:33:14 -0700
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Tue, 10 May 2022 15:33 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 10:20:56 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>Hi, all,
>
>A couple of years ago the last mainstream maker (NXP) stopped making the
>last fast PNP--the 5-GHz BFT92--thus depriving some of us of valuable
>design space, e.g. for improving the transconductance of FET bootstraps
>by wrapping a much faster PNP around it.
>
>A BF862 or CPH3910 with a BFT92 wraparound makes a 750-MHz FET with 10x
>the transconductance but about the same noise. Magic.
>
>I have ~9k BFT92s in stock, so I'm set for anything I might want to do
>myself, but for customer designs it's more of a worry. Not too long
>ago, the NTE2403 was announced, but stock seems to be, *ahem*, thin.
>
>I ran across this datasheet:
><http://www.unisonic.com.tw/datasheet/2SA1977.pdf>, which is marked
>"preliminary" and dated 2021. It's apparently a closeish second source
>for the long lost Renesas/NEC 2SA1977, which was even faster than the
>BFT92 (8 GHz f_T).
>
>Anybody know anything about this outfit? I've never heard of them.
>
>Thanks
>
>Phil Hobbs

Here's the output stage of our P400 pulse/delay generator, the one you
have.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gj5252vstfiw9gw/P400_Output_A.pdf?dl=0

It's packed with obsolete parts. I replaced it with the GaN fet
mouse-bite thing for the next generation.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Fast PNP?

<114df4ba-1d48-6f27-9b51-b68f7314e481@electrooptical.net>

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From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Fast PNP?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 11:35:13 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 58
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Tue, 10 May 2022 15:35 UTC

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2022 10:20:56 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi, all,
>>
>> A couple of years ago the last mainstream maker (NXP) stopped
>> making the last fast PNP--the 5-GHz BFT92--thus depriving some of
>> us of valuable design space, e.g. for improving the
>> transconductance of FET bootstraps by wrapping a much faster PNP
>> around it.
>>
>> A BF862 or CPH3910 with a BFT92 wraparound makes a 750-MHz FET with
>> 10x the transconductance but about the same noise. Magic.
>>
>> I have ~9k BFT92s in stock, so I'm set for anything I might want to
>> do myself, but for customer designs it's more of a worry. Not too
>> long ago, the NTE2403 was announced, but stock seems to be, *ahem*,
>> thin.
>>
>> I ran across this datasheet:
>> <http://www.unisonic.com.tw/datasheet/2SA1977.pdf>, which is
>> marked "preliminary" and dated 2021. It's apparently a closeish
>> second source for the long lost Renesas/NEC 2SA1977, which was even
>> faster than the BFT92 (8 GHz f_T).
>>
>> Anybody know anything about this outfit? I've never heard of
>> them.

>
> Here too:
>
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/renesas-electronics-america-inc/2SA1977-T1B-A/11550285
>
>
Yeah, there are a fair amount of NOS Renesas ones out there, apparently.
For licensed designs it would be more comforting to be able to point to
current production.

> I've had to redesign a few products that used fast pnp's in SOT-89.

I have a reel of BFG31s too. (That's only a thousand pieces, of
course.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: Fast PNP?

<78c5e019-0ff3-f939-1b2f-c520f609527d@electrooptical.net>

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From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Fast PNP?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 11:40:07 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Tue, 10 May 2022 15:40 UTC

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2022 10:20:56 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi, all,
>>
>> A couple of years ago the last mainstream maker (NXP) stopped making the
>> last fast PNP--the 5-GHz BFT92--thus depriving some of us of valuable
>> design space, e.g. for improving the transconductance of FET bootstraps
>> by wrapping a much faster PNP around it.
>>
>> A BF862 or CPH3910 with a BFT92 wraparound makes a 750-MHz FET with 10x
>> the transconductance but about the same noise. Magic.
>>
>> I have ~9k BFT92s in stock, so I'm set for anything I might want to do
>> myself, but for customer designs it's more of a worry. Not too long
>> ago, the NTE2403 was announced, but stock seems to be, *ahem*, thin.
>>
>> I ran across this datasheet:
>> <http://www.unisonic.com.tw/datasheet/2SA1977.pdf>, which is marked
>> "preliminary" and dated 2021. It's apparently a closeish second source
>> for the long lost Renesas/NEC 2SA1977, which was even faster than the
>> BFT92 (8 GHz f_T).
>>
>> Anybody know anything about this outfit? I've never heard of them.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> Here's the output stage of our P400 pulse/delay generator, the one you
> have.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/gj5252vstfiw9gw/P400_Output_A.pdf?dl=0
>
> It's packed with obsolete parts. I replaced it with the GaN fet
> mouse-bite thing for the next generation.

Nice gizmo, though.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: Fast PNP?

<t5e32u$b29u$1@solani.org>

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From: dk4...@arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Fast PNP?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 18:15:26 +0200
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 by: Gerhard Hoffmann - Tue, 10 May 2022 16:15 UTC

Am 10.05.22 um 17:35 schrieb Phil Hobbs:
> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 10:20:56 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, all,
>>>
>>> A couple of years ago the last mainstream maker (NXP) stopped
>>> making the last fast PNP--the 5-GHz BFT92--thus depriving some of
>>> us of valuable design space, e.g. for improving the
>>> transconductance of FET bootstraps by wrapping a much faster PNP
>>> around it.
>>>
>>> A BF862 or CPH3910 with a BFT92 wraparound makes a 750-MHz FET with
>>> 10x the transconductance but about the same noise.  Magic.
>>>
>>> I have ~9k BFT92s in stock, so I'm set for anything I might want to
>>> do myself, but for customer designs it's more of a worry.  Not too
>>> long ago, the NTE2403 was announced, but stock seems to be, *ahem*,
>>> thin.
>>>
>>> I ran across this datasheet:
>>> <http://www.unisonic.com.tw/datasheet/2SA1977.pdf>, which is
>>> marked "preliminary" and dated 2021.  It's apparently a closeish
>>> second source for the long lost Renesas/NEC 2SA1977, which was even
>>> faster than the BFT92 (8 GHz f_T).
>>>
>>> Anybody know anything about this outfit?  I've never heard of
>>> them.

I think Renesas is the sum of NEC semi, Hitachi, Harris, Intersil.

There is still the HFA3096, a transistor array, Si on isolator.
Some members of this family have 5.5 GHz PNPs, still active.
It was easy to get them space qualified a few years ago
for a dual slope time stretcher. In a ceramic flatpack where
nobody dared to shorten the extra long leads. :-)

<
https://www.digikey.de/de/products/filter/transistoren-bipolar-bjt-hf/283?s=N4IgTCBcDaIBYDMCGBmADATgGwgLoF8g
>

>> Here too:
>>
>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/renesas-electronics-america-inc/2SA1977-T1B-A/11550285
>>
>>
>>
> Yeah, there are a fair amount of NOS Renesas ones out there, apparently.
>  For licensed designs it would be more comforting to be able to point to
> current production.
>
>> I've had to redesign a few products that used fast pnp's in SOT-89.
>
> I have a reel of BFG31s too. (That's only a thousand pieces, of
> course.)

#me too. Ask me if you are desperate. I don't need production quantities.

Is quantitties a word? It should be. Sugestive as hell. :-)

cheers, Gerhard

Re: Fast PNP?

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 by: Phil Hobbs - Tue, 10 May 2022 16:47 UTC

Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
> Am 10.05.22 um 17:35 schrieb Phil Hobbs:
>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 10:20:56 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, all,
>>>>
>>>> A couple of years ago the last mainstream maker (NXP) stopped
>>>> making the last fast PNP--the 5-GHz BFT92--thus depriving some of
>>>> us of valuable design space, e.g. for improving the
>>>> transconductance of FET bootstraps by wrapping a much faster PNP
>>>> around it.
>>>>
>>>> A BF862 or CPH3910 with a BFT92 wraparound makes a 750-MHz FET with
>>>> 10x the transconductance but about the same noise.  Magic.
>>>>
>>>> I have ~9k BFT92s in stock, so I'm set for anything I might want to
>>>> do myself, but for customer designs it's more of a worry.  Not too
>>>> long ago, the NTE2403 was announced, but stock seems to be, *ahem*,
>>>> thin.
>>>>
>>>> I ran across this datasheet:
>>>> <http://www.unisonic.com.tw/datasheet/2SA1977.pdf>, which is
>>>> marked "preliminary" and dated 2021.  It's apparently a closeish
>>>> second source for the long lost Renesas/NEC 2SA1977, which was even
>>>> faster than the BFT92 (8 GHz f_T).
>>>>
>>>> Anybody know anything about this outfit?  I've never heard of
>>>> them.
>
> I think Renesas is the sum of NEC semi, Hitachi, Harris, Intersil.
>
> There is still the HFA3096, a transistor array, Si on isolator.
> Some members of this family have 5.5 GHz PNPs, still active.
> It was easy to get them space qualified a few years ago
> for a dual slope time stretcher. In a ceramic flatpack where
> nobody dared to shorten the extra long leads.  :-)

Yeah, the package parasitics and especially the R_ee' are pretty
disappointing. I looked at them carefully for laser noise canceller
use, but they weren't much use. A pity.

> <
> https://www.digikey.de/de/products/filter/transistoren-bipolar-bjt-hf/283?s=N4IgTCBcDaIBYDMCGBmADATgGwgLoF8g
> >
>
>>> Here too:
>>>
>>> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/renesas-electronics-america-inc/2SA1977-T1B-A/11550285
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Yeah, there are a fair amount of NOS Renesas ones out there, apparently.
>>   For licensed designs it would be more comforting to be able to point to
>> current production.
>>
>>> I've had to redesign a few products that used fast pnp's in SOT-89.
>>
>> I have a reel of BFG31s too. (That's only a thousand pieces, of
>> course.)
>
> #me too. Ask me if you are desperate. I don't need production quantities.
>
> Is quantitties a word? It should be. Sugestive as hell.   :-)
>
> cheers, Gerhard

You need to get out more. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: Fast PNP?

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 by: John Larkin - Tue, 10 May 2022 16:58 UTC

On Tue, 10 May 2022 11:40:07 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 May 2022 10:20:56 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, all,
>>>
>>> A couple of years ago the last mainstream maker (NXP) stopped making the
>>> last fast PNP--the 5-GHz BFT92--thus depriving some of us of valuable
>>> design space, e.g. for improving the transconductance of FET bootstraps
>>> by wrapping a much faster PNP around it.
>>>
>>> A BF862 or CPH3910 with a BFT92 wraparound makes a 750-MHz FET with 10x
>>> the transconductance but about the same noise. Magic.
>>>
>>> I have ~9k BFT92s in stock, so I'm set for anything I might want to do
>>> myself, but for customer designs it's more of a worry. Not too long
>>> ago, the NTE2403 was announced, but stock seems to be, *ahem*, thin.
>>>
>>> I ran across this datasheet:
>>> <http://www.unisonic.com.tw/datasheet/2SA1977.pdf>, which is marked
>>> "preliminary" and dated 2021. It's apparently a closeish second source
>>> for the long lost Renesas/NEC 2SA1977, which was even faster than the
>>> BFT92 (8 GHz f_T).
>>>
>>> Anybody know anything about this outfit? I've never heard of them.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> Here's the output stage of our P400 pulse/delay generator, the one you
>> have.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/gj5252vstfiw9gw/P400_Output_A.pdf?dl=0
>>
>> It's packed with obsolete parts. I replaced it with the GaN fet
>> mouse-bite thing for the next generation.
>
>Nice gizmo, though.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

Everybody should have one.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

Re: Fast PNP?

<t5ebdn$mqk$1@dont-email.me>

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From: erichpwa...@hotmail.com (piglet)
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Subject: Re: Fast PNP?
Date: Tue, 10 May 2022 19:37:41 +0100
Organization: A noisesome patent Spinner
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 by: piglet - Tue, 10 May 2022 18:37 UTC

On 10/05/2022 3:20 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> A couple of years ago the last mainstream maker (NXP) stopped making the
> last fast PNP--the 5-GHz BFT92--thus depriving some of us of valuable
> design space, e.g. for improving the transconductance of FET bootstraps
> by wrapping a much faster PNP around it.
>
> A BF862 or CPH3910 with a BFT92 wraparound makes a 750-MHz FET with 10x
> the transconductance but about the same noise.  Magic.
>
> I have ~9k BFT92s in stock, so I'm set for anything I might want to do
> myself, but for customer designs it's more of a worry.  Not too long
> ago, the NTE2403 was announced, but stock seems to be, *ahem*, thin.
>
> I ran across this datasheet:
> <http://www.unisonic.com.tw/datasheet/2SA1977.pdf>, which is marked
> "preliminary" and dated 2021.  It's apparently a closeish second source
> for the long lost Renesas/NEC 2SA1977, which was even faster than the
> BFT92 (8 GHz f_T).
>
> Anybody know anything about this outfit?  I've never heard of them.
>
> Thanks
>
> Phil Hobbs
>

Well I have heard of Unisonic and seen their parts in other gear but
have no direct experience.

There is still the 2SA1669 at 3GHz?

piglet

Re: Fast PNP?

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Subject: Re: Fast PNP?
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Tue, 10 May 2022 18:45 UTC

piglet wrote:
> On 10/05/2022 3:20 pm, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Hi, all,
>>
>> A couple of years ago the last mainstream maker (NXP) stopped making
>> the last fast PNP--the 5-GHz BFT92--thus depriving some of us of
>> valuable design space, e.g. for improving the transconductance of FET
>> bootstraps by wrapping a much faster PNP around it.
>>
>> A BF862 or CPH3910 with a BFT92 wraparound makes a 750-MHz FET with
>> 10x the transconductance but about the same noise.  Magic.
>>
>> I have ~9k BFT92s in stock, so I'm set for anything I might want to do
>> myself, but for customer designs it's more of a worry.  Not too long
>> ago, the NTE2403 was announced, but stock seems to be, *ahem*, thin.
>>
>> I ran across this datasheet:
>> <http://www.unisonic.com.tw/datasheet/2SA1977.pdf>, which is marked
>> "preliminary" and dated 2021.  It's apparently a closeish second
>> source for the long lost Renesas/NEC 2SA1977, which was even faster
>> than the BFT92 (8 GHz f_T).
>>
>> Anybody know anything about this outfit?  I've never heard of them.

>>
>
> Well I have heard of Unisonic and seen their parts in other gear but
> have no direct experience.
>
> There is still the 2SA1669 at 3GHz?

Just from brokers--no current production.

As I say, I have three reels of BFT92s, from which I can probably build
$10M worth of TIAs if need be. (Just ask!) ;)

The issue is licensed designs, for which customers naturally ask
questions about long term parts availability.

Maybe Unisonic will come through where NTE apparently whiffed.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

1
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