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tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: more gold FR4

SubjectAuthor
* more gold FR4John Larkin
`* Re:more gold FR4Martin Rid
 +* Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
 |`- Re: more gold FR4Ricky
 +- Re: more gold FR4rbowman
 `* Re: more gold FR4Jasen Betts
  +* Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  |`* Re: more gold FR4Jan Panteltje
  | +* Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  | |+* Re: more gold FR4Jeroen Belleman
  | ||`- Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  | |+- Re: more gold FR4Jan Panteltje
  | |`* Re: more gold FR4rbowman
  | | +* Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  | | |`* Re: more gold FR4rbowman
  | | | `* Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  | | |  `* Re: more gold FR4Mike Monett
  | | |   `* Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  | | |    +- Re: more gold FR4Mike Monett
  | | |    +- Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  | | |    `- Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  | | `* Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  | |  `* Re: more gold FR4Joe Gwinn
  | |   +* Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  | |   |`* Re: more gold FR4Joe Gwinn
  | |   | `* Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  | |   |  `* Re: more gold FR4rbowman
  | |   |   `* Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  | |   |    `- Re: more gold FR4John Doe
  | |   +* Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  | |   |+* Re: more gold FR4John Miles, KE5FX
  | |   ||`* Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  | |   || `* Re: more gold FR4John Miles, KE5FX
  | |   ||  `- Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  | |   |+* Re: more gold FR4Joe Gwinn
  | |   ||`* Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  | |   || `* Re: more gold FR4Joe Gwinn
  | |   ||  `* Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  | |   ||   `* Re: more gold FR4rbowman
  | |   ||    `* Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  | |   ||     `- Re: more gold FR4rbowman
  | |   |`* Re: more gold FR4whit3rd
  | |   | `- Re: more gold FR4rbowman
  | |   +* Re: more gold FR4Jan Panteltje
  | |   |`- Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  | |   `- Re: more gold FR4Jan Panteltje
  | `* Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  |  +* Re: more gold FR4Rich S
  |  |+* Re: more gold FR4John Larkin
  |  ||`* Re: more gold FR4Gerhard Hoffmann
  |  || `* Re: more gold FR4John Larkin
  |  ||  `* Re: more gold FR4Gerhard Hoffmann
  |  ||   `- Re: more gold FR4John Larkin
  |  |+* Re: more gold FR4Gerhard Hoffmann
  |  ||`* Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  |  || `- Re: more gold FR4jlarkin
  |  |`* Re: more gold FR4whit3rd
  |  | `- Re: more gold FR4Phil Hobbs
  |  `- Re: more gold FR4Lasse Langwadt Christensen
  `* Re: more gold FR4John Walliker
   `- Re: more gold FR4jlarkin

Pages:123
Re: more gold FR4

<t5ajtj$81f$3@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96601&group=sci.electronics.design#96601

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From: always.l...@message.header (John Doe)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: more gold FR4
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 08:38:12 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: John Doe - Mon, 9 May 2022 08:38 UTC

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Jasen Betts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Larkin Wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was almost out of the ENIG gold-plated FR4 that I dremel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for protocircuits, so we had Cirexx make us some more. This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is 1/2 oz copper,which dremels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nicely.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/wgzr56dx43z14rp/Gold_FR4_3x.jpg?raw=1

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Min order was 3 square feet, which is maybe a 10
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year supply.-- If a man will begin with certainties, he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shall end with doubts, but if he will be content to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.Francis Bacon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Certainly better than tin plate. Has anyone tried to etch
>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold plated boards with ferric chloride?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Gold is fairly inert, but Mercury will dissolve it. the
>>>>>>>>>>>> nickel can probably then be plated off leaving the copper
>>>>>>>>>>>> which can them be etched chemically.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Seems kind of messy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why dissolve it? The gold plating cost $150 a square foot.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If I want an ENIG etched PCB, I can just buy one, with vias
>>>>>>>>>>> and solder mask and all that. The big slabs of gold plated FR4
>>>>>>>>>>> are for quick dermeled prototypes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/yd19osiwz1z74s4/HV_Proto_2.JPG?raw=1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/pa9mu4ehtrjei8m/Z384_1.JPG?raw=1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/zaftysxtgclxj82/Z412_Proto.JPG?raw=1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The big question is: What difference does it make for those
>>>>>>>>>> small proto boards if it is gold plated? else it is just show.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It solders beautifully and doesn't tarnish. Plain copper will
>>>>>>>>> show etched fingerprints and grunge in a couple of weeks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ejbuveodplo5m61/BreadBoards.jpg?raw=1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Beautiful things work better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Solder it and spray on the conformal coating of your choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No thanks. I like the gold.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As engineers, don't we need to come up with a pseudo technical
>>>>>> reason, like a gold surface is smoother and keeps its low surface
>>>>>> resistivity despite sweaty palms and caustic looks?

>>>>> I only need to please myself.
>>>>>
>>>>> And of course sell things. I built this and brought it into a
>>>>> meeting with a potential customer. They were very impressed.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nlnyna48107t0km/AADzQiRs7zww682eL_swPFONa?dl=0?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a Pockels Cell driver. The production version is water cooled
>>>>> and makes 1200 volt pulses at 5 MHz.
>>>>
>>>> It's very pretty, and works even: nice Gaussian pulse.
>>>>
>>>> But how many prototypes did it take to be able to make those
>>>> scalloped dremel line freehand?

>>> That one, just one. But I've had a lot of practice.

>>https://www.tinaja.com/flut01.shtml
>>
>>Now what you do first is build an x/y axis milling machine and program
>>it in PostScript...
>
> We have a Tormach n/c milling machine that can do PCBs. And I was toying
> with a pantogtraph-Dremel thing. But freehand is a lot faster than
> either.

Did you get any use out of the dirt-cheap mini tablesaw?

Re: more gold FR4

<66197e19-de3f-47fd-146e-3e5aa6b9de1c@electrooptical.net>

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Subject: Re: more gold FR4
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From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Message-ID: <66197e19-de3f-47fd-146e-3e5aa6b9de1c@electrooptical.net>
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Mon, 9 May 2022 15:05 UTC

rbowman wrote:
> On 05/08/2022 04:42 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Nope, just me. There were a few parts involved, some late nights,
>> and of course the statutory minimum quantity of JB Weld. ;) It was
>> neatly trimmed and painted flat black to make it less obvious.
>>
>
> Was it a one-off or did your client intend to go into production?

It was a POC, not a production proto. I did a feasibility calculation
to show that it could work, then a POC demo to show that it did in fact
work.

The idea was for the founder to use those data to raise some more dough,
which he did, and then hire a CE firm with biomed experience to make a
solid product, which they did not--they ran through what I discover was
actually nearly $1.5E6 and produced, um, something apparently from their
lower back.

I posted a link to the whole story upthread.

>
> I did a project for a woman who was interested in Kirlian
> photography. My non-professional opinion was she was nuttier than a
> fruitcake but her money spend as well as any and she was happy with
> the outcome.

Some Kirlian photos are pretty cool-looking--nothing wrong with making
those. It's when people start getting into partly-baked spiritualism
and stuff that they really start circling the drain. (Spiritualism is a
dangerous delusion if you don't believe in the supernatural world, and
even more dangerous if you do.)

>
> At times I took a pass when I knew I couldn't deliver. For example
> one person wanted to develop a PPG heart rate monitor. It was a
> perfectly valid idea as evidenced by the number of devices on the
> market today but wasn't feasible in the '80s, at least not at the
> level of miniaturization for a consumer product.

Sure, nobody likes failures. I turned down one gig with a surgical
instruments company who wanted to put RFID tags inside stainless steel
surgical instruments, to reduce errors.

Would have been great, except that to get approved, the RFID tag would
have had to be inside the metal. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: more gold FR4

<t5bcen$16oi$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: more gold FR4
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 11:36:53 -0400
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Mon, 9 May 2022 15:36 UTC

whit3rd wrote:
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 10:56:23 AM UTC-7, Rich S wrote:
>
>> ...I remember long ago a former
>> co worker (who once ran elec assy lines at GE, Schenectady, NY)
>> mention something called "Stay Bright" -- when ordering bare
>> non-plated etched PCBs. Searching for that now turns up
>> other unrelated things.
>
> Yeah, I recall that stuff; it just rubs on, and by electroless plating puts a bit
> of silver on a copper surface. Don't see any suppliers, but this shows up
> on a web search
> <https://www.protext.com//Metals/SilverChloridePlating1.htm>
>

It's sold as "Cool Amp", intended for improving high-current bolted
connections.

https://www.cool-amp.com/cool-amp

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: more gold FR4

<sjhi7hhqarguvv3g28h65sh1da9jcnio2b@4ax.com>

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From: jlar...@highland_atwork_technology.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: more gold FR4
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 09:53:19 -0700
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 by: John Larkin - Mon, 9 May 2022 16:53 UTC

On Sat, 7 May 2022 04:39:26 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
wrote:

>Am 06.05.22 um 20:54 schrieb John Larkin:
>
>> There is some liquid that you can dip copperclad into that plates it
>> with tin. It's not any better than bare copper.
>
>
>This one is good and much better than copper:
>
><
>https://www.buerklin.com/de/Zinnpulver-f%C3%BCr-Glanzzinn-B%C3%A4der-Seno-3211/p/13L217
> >
>
>The Cu surface must be _absolutely_ clean. They have a special
>eraser rubber for it, quite abrasive. "Poliblock"
>
>For me. it works best to put the etched Bungard presensitized
>board without photo mask under UV again and then use the NaOH
>developper to remove the photo resist.
>
>cheers, Gerhard

What does that do?

Linecard. Services. News. Image Coming Soon. Service-Hotline. It's
half English already.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

Re: more gold FR4

<t5bp9j$ako5$1@solani.org>

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From: dk4...@arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: more gold FR4
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 21:16:03 +0200
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 by: Gerhard Hoffmann - Mon, 9 May 2022 19:16 UTC

Am 09.05.22 um 18:53 schrieb John Larkin:
> On Sat, 7 May 2022 04:39:26 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
> wrote:
>
>> Am 06.05.22 um 20:54 schrieb John Larkin:
>>
>>> There is some liquid that you can dip copperclad into that plates it
>>> with tin. It's not any better than bare copper.
>>
>>
>> This one is good and much better than copper:
>>
>> <
>> https://www.buerklin.com/de/Zinnpulver-f%C3%BCr-Glanzzinn-B%C3%A4der-Seno-3211/p/13L217
>> >
>>
>> The Cu surface must be _absolutely_ clean. They have a special
>> eraser rubber for it, quite abrasive. "Poliblock"
>>
>> For me. it works best to put the etched Bungard presensitized
>> board without photo mask under UV again and then use the NaOH
>> developper to remove the photo resist.
>>
>> cheers, Gerhard
>
> What does that do?
>
> Linecard. Services. News. Image Coming Soon. Service-Hotline. It's
> half English already.

The web site takes forever to load, it has an English section, too.
But I sit in the glass house regarding my own site.
I better don't throw rocks. :-(

Product name: SENO 3211

The bottle contains powder for 1 liter of a tin solution.
It is dissolved in warm water, can be used at room temp.
The bath creates a tin layer that is shiny, scratch proof,
good enough for edge contacts. Simply place the copper board
into the solution. An hour should do. The longer, the thicker.
Manufacturer claims up to 5 um.

Ordinary FR4 board, tin-plated maybe 5 years ago, laying open
in a plastic drawer:

<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/52061042842/in/dateposted-public/
>

This is the manufacturer:
< https://www.seno.de/seno-3211-glanzzinn >

I also have a silver solution. It contains mostly KCN and AgCN.
The little bottle probably has enough to kill all your fiends.

<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/52062322254/in/dateposted-public/
>

Works fine, too.

Cheers, Gerhard

Re: more gold FR4

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From: jlar...@highland_atwork_technology.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: more gold FR4
Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 12:27:22 -0700
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 by: John Larkin - Mon, 9 May 2022 19:27 UTC

On Mon, 9 May 2022 21:16:03 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
wrote:

>Am 09.05.22 um 18:53 schrieb John Larkin:
>> On Sat, 7 May 2022 04:39:26 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 06.05.22 um 20:54 schrieb John Larkin:
>>>
>>>> There is some liquid that you can dip copperclad into that plates it
>>>> with tin. It's not any better than bare copper.
>>>
>>>
>>> This one is good and much better than copper:
>>>
>>> <
>>> https://www.buerklin.com/de/Zinnpulver-f%C3%BCr-Glanzzinn-B%C3%A4der-Seno-3211/p/13L217
>>> >
>>>
>>> The Cu surface must be _absolutely_ clean. They have a special
>>> eraser rubber for it, quite abrasive. "Poliblock"
>>>
>>> For me. it works best to put the etched Bungard presensitized
>>> board without photo mask under UV again and then use the NaOH
>>> developper to remove the photo resist.
>>>
>>> cheers, Gerhard
>>
>> What does that do?
>>
>> Linecard. Services. News. Image Coming Soon. Service-Hotline. It's
>> half English already.
>
>
>
>The web site takes forever to load, it has an English section, too.
>But I sit in the glass house regarding my own site.
>I better don't throw rocks. :-(

Oh, I see that now. The little pull-down thing in the corner.

>
>
>Product name: SENO 3211
>
>The bottle contains powder for 1 liter of a tin solution.
>It is dissolved in warm water, can be used at room temp.
>The bath creates a tin layer that is shiny, scratch proof,
>good enough for edge contacts. Simply place the copper board
>into the solution. An hour should do. The longer, the thicker.
>Manufacturer claims up to 5 um.
>

I've used a tin plate solution like that one. Didn't like it.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

Re: more gold FR4

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From: bow...@montana.com (rbowman)
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Subject: Re: more gold FR4
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 by: rbowman - Tue, 10 May 2022 02:09 UTC

On 05/09/2022 09:05 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>
>>
>> I did a project for a woman who was interested in Kirlian
>> photography. My non-professional opinion was she was nuttier than a
>> fruitcake but her money spend as well as any and she was happy with
>> the outcome.
>
> Some Kirlian photos are pretty cool-looking--nothing wrong with making
> those. It's when people start getting into partly-baked spiritualism
> and stuff that they really start circling the drain. (Spiritualism is a
> dangerous delusion if you don't believe in the supernatural world, and
> even more dangerous if you do.)

I did get some nice photos but the woman signing the checks was
definitely into auras. I learned quite a bit about Eastman Kodak's
specialized film and photographic techniques. Nothing I ever used again
but I've always been too curious for my own good.

Re: more gold FR4

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Subject: Re: more gold FR4
From: jmi...@gmail.com (John Miles, KE5FX)
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 by: John Miles, KE5FX - Tue, 10 May 2022 04:30 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 10:42:40 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Au contraire. A nice-looking dead bug gizmo in an aluminum stomp box is
> easy to make and IME really makes the punters take an interest in how
> the gizmo works.

I don't want the customer to think I'm David Copperfield.
I want them to think I'm Gandalf.

("But Gandalf never actually DOES much of anything. He just stands around
stroking his beard and offering advice that nobody dares question." "Exactly.")

-- john, KE5FX

Re: more gold FR4

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Subject: Re: more gold FR4
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Tue, 10 May 2022 14:22 UTC

John Miles, KE5FX wrote:
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 10:42:40 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Au contraire. A nice-looking dead bug gizmo in an aluminum stomp box is
>> easy to make and IME really makes the punters take an interest in how
>> the gizmo works.
>
> I don't want the customer to think I'm David Copperfield.
> I want them to think I'm Gandalf.
>
> ("But Gandalf never actually DOES much of anything. He just stands around
> stroking his beard and offering advice that nobody dares question." "Exactly.")
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>

I'm holding out for Oberon's job from Amber--hanging out in the basement
and casually changing the structure of reality. ;)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: more gold FR4

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 by: whit3rd - Tue, 10 May 2022 19:05 UTC

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 5:10:14 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> Joe Gwinn wrote:

> > As engineers, don't we need to come up with a pseudo technical reason,
> > like a gold surface is smoother and keeps its low surface resistivity
> > despite sweaty palms and caustic looks?

> So something that looks like a Yugo is fine, as long as the mechanicals
> underneath are good?

Well, I'm not sure 'looks like a Yugo' is the apt image; the Yugo, after
all, was a fine Italian design. But, yeah, when the discussion of should-we-buy
happens, you don't want a visible blemish to be part of the discussion.

Science labs are full of lashups-that-work, though.
I kinda like the caveman craftsmanship look, and have spent a great
deal of time admiring vacuum tubes... but don't often buy them.

Re: more gold FR4

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 by: rbowman - Wed, 11 May 2022 01:25 UTC

On 05/10/2022 01:05 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 5:10:14 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Joe Gwinn wrote:
>
>>> As engineers, don't we need to come up with a pseudo technical reason,
>>> like a gold surface is smoother and keeps its low surface resistivity
>>> despite sweaty palms and caustic looks?
>
>> So something that looks like a Yugo is fine, as long as the mechanicals
>> underneath are good?
>
> Well, I'm not sure 'looks like a Yugo' is the apt image; the Yugo, after
> all, was a fine Italian design. But, yeah, when the discussion of should-we-buy
> happens, you don't want a visible blemish to be part of the discussion.

The Fiat 128 was no beauty and translating it to Serbo-Croatian didn't
help. While I was not in favor of the whole fiasco bombing the Zastava
factory was a plus.

I may be a little OCD but while my shop space looks like the aftermath
of a hurricane I always wanted anything produced for public consumption
to look good.

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