Hello all,

I woke up this year to find that most new bicycle frames of all types
(MTB, hybrid, gravel and even road) no longer have V-brake struts but
supports for mounting disc brakes.

As things go, my next bicycle is likely to have disc brakes, so I am
wondering if that will be satisfactory or if I should buy and store a
bike with V-brakes while that still exists. After all, I am quite
satisfied by the effectiveness of properly-maintained V-brakes and
used to maintain them. And I am certainly not used to maintain disc
brakes at all (yet).

It looks like cable-actuated are quite rare and that hydraulic ones
ones, are they not? (If cable-actuated ones are common enough, that will
be one less unusual thing to me, since I am already used to Bowden
cables.)

Do you have insight about the price of disk brakes material:
- discs and calipers, compared to V-brake calipers;
- hydraulic lines, fluid and levers (compared to cable, housing and
mechanical levers);
- disc brake pads, compared to V-brake pads?

I am also wondering about the tooling required to cut, install and fill
hydraulic lines. (Compared to wire-cutting pliers and a hex key.)

And finally, do you know how easy or difficult it is to do more or less
common maintenance:
- replace disc brake pads;
- adjust brake pads spacing and centering;
- replace or shorten hydraulic lines (e.g. because I replaced my
handlebar by one with a different geometry);
- replace hydraulic levers?

Cheers,

--
Tanguy

On 12/6/2023 8:11 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I woke up this year to find that most new bicycle frames of all types
> (MTB, hybrid, gravel and even road) no longer have V-brake struts but
> supports for mounting disc brakes.
>
> As things go, my next bicycle is likely to have disc brakes, so I am
> wondering if that will be satisfactory or if I should buy and store a
> bike with V-brakes while that still exists. After all, I am quite
> satisfied by the effectiveness of properly-maintained V-brakes and
> used to maintain them. And I am certainly not used to maintain disc
> brakes at all (yet).
>
> It looks like cable-actuated are quite rare and that hydraulic ones
> ones, are they not? (If cable-actuated ones are common enough, that will
> be one less unusual thing to me, since I am already used to Bowden
> cables.)
>
> Do you have insight about the price of disk brakes material:
> - discs and calipers, compared to V-brake calipers;
> - hydraulic lines, fluid and levers (compared to cable, housing and
> mechanical levers);
> - disc brake pads, compared to V-brake pads?
>
> I am also wondering about the tooling required to cut, install and fill
> hydraulic lines. (Compared to wire-cutting pliers and a hex key.)
>
> And finally, do you know how easy or difficult it is to do more or less
> common maintenance:
> - replace disc brake pads;
> - adjust brake pads spacing and centering;
> - replace or shorten hydraulic lines (e.g. because I replaced my
> handlebar by one with a different geometry);
> - replace hydraulic levers?
>
> Cheers,
>

IMHO rim brake bicycles are not going away any time soon;
there will be more disc in the near future but probably not
100%.

Disc pad replacement is quick and simple, usually with one
tool and fingers.

Hydraulic line service is probably beyond most consumers but
not impossible. You'll need a service kit with line cutter,
replacement barbs and olives or seals, flare wrench(es), a
press for the end fittings and bleed tools besides the
proper fluid, brake cleaner etc.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi, 2023-12-06 15:40+0100:
> IMHO rim brake bicycles are not going away any time soon;
> there will be more disc in the near future but probably not
> 100%.

Well, I must say it is becoming pretty hard to find a good hybrid bike
with V-brake, or a naked bike frame with V-brake struts. (And by good, I
mostly mean with freehub and cassette.) Hence my worry.

> Disc pad replacement is quick and simple, usually with one
> tool and fingers.

I thought so.

> Hydraulic line service is probably beyond most consumers but
> not impossible. You'll need a service kit with line cutter,
> replacement barbs and olives or seals, flare wrench(es), a
> press for the end fittings and bleed tools besides the
> proper fluid, brake cleaner etc.

Ouch. That level of tooling and expertise clearly rules out hydraulic
lines for me. And I would by no mean renounce to the ability to
self-service my bike. Are cable-actuated disk brakes common enough?

--
Tanguy

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:48:58 PM UTC+1, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> AMuzi, 2023-12-06 15:40+0100:
> > IMHO rim brake bicycles are not going away any time soon;
> > there will be more disc in the near future but probably not
> > 100%.
> Well, I must say it is becoming pretty hard to find a good hybrid bike
> with V-brake, or a naked bike frame with V-brake struts. (And by good, I
> mostly mean with freehub and cassette.) Hence my worry.
> > Disc pad replacement is quick and simple, usually with one
> > tool and fingers.
> I thought so.
> > Hydraulic line service is probably beyond most consumers but
> > not impossible. You'll need a service kit with line cutter,
> > replacement barbs and olives or seals, flare wrench(es), a
> > press for the end fittings and bleed tools besides the
> > proper fluid, brake cleaner etc.
> Ouch. That level of tooling and expertise clearly rules out hydraulic
> lines for me. And I would by no mean renounce to the ability to
> self-service my bike. Are cable-actuated disk brakes common enough?
>
> --
> Tanguy

Installing and maintaining are two different things with hydraulic disc brakes. For maintaining you don't need any special tool besides a bleed kit but they are cheap.

Lou

Lou

Am 06.12.2023 um 15:11 schrieb Tanguy Ortolo:
> Hello all,
>
> I woke up this year to find that most new bicycle frames of all types
> (MTB, hybrid, gravel and even road) no longer have V-brake struts but
> supports for mounting disc brakes.
>
> As things go, my next bicycle is likely to have disc brakes, so I am
> wondering if that will be satisfactory or if I should buy and store a
> bike with V-brakes while that still exists. After all, I am quite
> satisfied by the effectiveness of properly-maintained V-brakes and
> used to maintain them. And I am certainly not used to maintain disc
> brakes at all (yet).
>
> It looks like cable-actuated are quite rare and that hydraulic ones
> ones, are they not? (If cable-actuated ones are common enough, that will
> be one less unusual thing to me, since I am already used to Bowden
> cables.)

Cheap lines are cable-actuated while more expensive lines are hydraulic.

> Do you have insight about the price of disk brakes material:
> - discs and calipers, compared to V-brake calipers;
> - hydraulic lines, fluid and levers (compared to cable, housing and
> mechanical levers);

Never exchanged those

> - disc brake pads, compared to V-brake pads?

€15 for one set of standard pads, can be more expensive for pads with
extra frills (cooling fins etc).

> I am also wondering about the tooling required to cut, install and fill
> hydraulic lines. (Compared to wire-cutting pliers and a hex key.)

I once bought a Mafura filling kit (for hydraulic caliper brakes) some
20 years ago. I used it once and then lost it, not needing it since.

If you only do it once, get a bike shop do it for you.

> And finally, do you know how easy or difficult it is to do more or less
> common maintenance:
> - replace disc brake pads;

typically 3mm hex or a pair of pliers.

> - adjust brake pads spacing and centering;

hydraulic brakes self-adjust. Cable-controlled brakes need a 3mm hex to
adjust.

> - replace or shorten hydraulic lines (e.g. because I replaced my
> handlebar by one with a different geometry);
> - replace hydraulic levers?

Never done.

Lou Holtman <lou.holtman@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:48:58 PM UTC+1, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
>> AMuzi, 2023-12-06 15:40+0100:
>>> IMHO rim brake bicycles are not going away any time soon;
>>> there will be more disc in the near future but probably not
>>> 100%.
>> Well, I must say it is becoming pretty hard to find a good hybrid bike
>> with V-brake, or a naked bike frame with V-brake struts. (And by good, I
>> mostly mean with freehub and cassette.) Hence my worry.
>>> Disc pad replacement is quick and simple, usually with one
>>> tool and fingers.
>> I thought so.
>>> Hydraulic line service is probably beyond most consumers but
>>> not impossible. You'll need a service kit with line cutter,
>>> replacement barbs and olives or seals, flare wrench(es), a
>>> press for the end fittings and bleed tools besides the
>>> proper fluid, brake cleaner etc.
>> Ouch. That level of tooling and expertise clearly rules out hydraulic
>> lines for me. And I would by no mean renounce to the ability to
>> self-service my bike. Are cable-actuated disk brakes common enough?
>>
>> --
>> Tanguy
>
>
> Installing and maintaining are two different things with hydraulic disc
> brakes. For maintaining you don't need any special tool besides a bleed
> kit but they are cheap.
>
> Lou
>
> Lou
>

I’ve never installed a hydraulic disk system nor likely to do so, or bleed
them as seem to last many years, and definitely into infrequent needs tools
so bike shop type of thing.

Pads though are cup of tea and so on job, luckily as the moist weather is
trashing them!

Roger Merriman

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 4:35:34 PM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:48:58 PM UTC+1, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> >> AMuzi, 2023-12-06 15:40+0100:
> >>> IMHO rim brake bicycles are not going away any time soon;
> >>> there will be more disc in the near future but probably not
> >>> 100%.
> >> Well, I must say it is becoming pretty hard to find a good hybrid bike
> >> with V-brake, or a naked bike frame with V-brake struts. (And by good, I
> >> mostly mean with freehub and cassette.) Hence my worry.
> >>> Disc pad replacement is quick and simple, usually with one
> >>> tool and fingers.
> >> I thought so.
> >>> Hydraulic line service is probably beyond most consumers but
> >>> not impossible. You'll need a service kit with line cutter,
> >>> replacement barbs and olives or seals, flare wrench(es), a
> >>> press for the end fittings and bleed tools besides the
> >>> proper fluid, brake cleaner etc.
> >> Ouch. That level of tooling and expertise clearly rules out hydraulic
> >> lines for me. And I would by no mean renounce to the ability to
> >> self-service my bike. Are cable-actuated disk brakes common enough?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Tanguy
> >
> >
> > Installing and maintaining are two different things with hydraulic disc
> > brakes. For maintaining you don't need any special tool besides a bleed
> > kit but they are cheap.
> >
> > Lou
> >
> > Lou
> >
> I’ve never installed a hydraulic disk system nor likely to do so, or bleed
> them as seem to last many years, and definitely into infrequent needs tools
> so bike shop type of thing.
>
> Pads though are cup of tea and so on job, luckily as the moist weather is
> trashing them!
>
> Roger Merriman

It is almost always 'install once and leave them alone' especially nowadays where everything is within the frame. I installed the hydraulic disks of my friend for the experience. Not hard but some extra tools were required/handy that I could borrow from a colleague. On my own bikes I didn't install the brakes, only maintaining. On my 11 years old cross bike I bled the system only once two years ago; never touched the brakes on my 3.5 year old gravel bike. The biggest hassle is bedding in the new brake pads.

Lou

Rolf Mantel, 2023-12-06 16:32+0100:
> hydraulic brakes self-adjust. Cable-controlled brakes need a 3mm hex to
> adjust.

How can that work by the way? And how does it interact when you remove
the wheel or replace the pads?

--
Tanguy

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 6:41:51 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/6/2023 8:11 AM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I woke up this year to find that most new bicycle frames of all types
> > (MTB, hybrid, gravel and even road) no longer have V-brake struts but
> > supports for mounting disc brakes.
> >
> > As things go, my next bicycle is likely to have disc brakes, so I am
> > wondering if that will be satisfactory or if I should buy and store a
> > bike with V-brakes while that still exists. After all, I am quite
> > satisfied by the effectiveness of properly-maintained V-brakes and
> > used to maintain them. And I am certainly not used to maintain disc
> > brakes at all (yet).
> >
> > It looks like cable-actuated are quite rare and that hydraulic ones
> > ones, are they not? (If cable-actuated ones are common enough, that will
> > be one less unusual thing to me, since I am already used to Bowden
> > cables.)
> >
> > Do you have insight about the price of disk brakes material:
> > - discs and calipers, compared to V-brake calipers;
> > - hydraulic lines, fluid and levers (compared to cable, housing and
> > mechanical levers);
> > - disc brake pads, compared to V-brake pads?
> >
> > I am also wondering about the tooling required to cut, install and fill
> > hydraulic lines. (Compared to wire-cutting pliers and a hex key.)
> >
> > And finally, do you know how easy or difficult it is to do more or less
> > common maintenance:
> > - replace disc brake pads;
> > - adjust brake pads spacing and centering;
> > - replace or shorten hydraulic lines (e.g. because I replaced my
> > handlebar by one with a different geometry);
> > - replace hydraulic levers?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> IMHO rim brake bicycles are not going away any time soon;
> there will be more disc in the near future but probably not
> 100%.
>
> Disc pad replacement is quick and simple, usually with one
> tool and fingers.
>
> Hydraulic line service is probably beyond most consumers but
> not impossible. You'll need a service kit with line cutter,
> replacement barbs and olives or seals, flare wrench(es), a
> press for the end fittings and bleed tools besides the
> proper fluid, brake cleaner etc.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
We're in agreement. Changing disc pads is cheap and easy. Bleeding the Shimano hydraulic brakes is so easy it only take the amount of time it requires to set up V-brakes, Because there is so much resistance against disc brakes even amoung professional racers the companies like Trek continue to change the story of why they are using discs rather than standard brakes that anyone can service with a single hex wrench. The latest I heard is that they are used because of wide tires not fitting between V-brakes. Well, I used them with 42 mm tires on a CX bike so I hardly think that a reason. The fact is that they were used on MTB's because there is less traction and you need a stronger brake to hold back a large knobby. And they were used on road bikes because you didn't want to rub brake lines into $1500 carbon rims.

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 8:09:48 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 4:35:34 PM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:48:58 PM UTC+1, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> > >> AMuzi, 2023-12-06 15:40+0100:
> > >>> IMHO rim brake bicycles are not going away any time soon;
> > >>> there will be more disc in the near future but probably not
> > >>> 100%.
> > >> Well, I must say it is becoming pretty hard to find a good hybrid bike
> > >> with V-brake, or a naked bike frame with V-brake struts. (And by good, I
> > >> mostly mean with freehub and cassette.) Hence my worry.
> > >>> Disc pad replacement is quick and simple, usually with one
> > >>> tool and fingers.
> > >> I thought so.
> > >>> Hydraulic line service is probably beyond most consumers but
> > >>> not impossible. You'll need a service kit with line cutter,
> > >>> replacement barbs and olives or seals, flare wrench(es), a
> > >>> press for the end fittings and bleed tools besides the
> > >>> proper fluid, brake cleaner etc.
> > >> Ouch. That level of tooling and expertise clearly rules out hydraulic
> > >> lines for me. And I would by no mean renounce to the ability to
> > >> self-service my bike. Are cable-actuated disk brakes common enough?
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Tanguy
> > >
> > >
> > > Installing and maintaining are two different things with hydraulic disc
> > > brakes. For maintaining you don't need any special tool besides a bleed
> > > kit but they are cheap.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > >
> > > Lou
> > >
> > I’ve never installed a hydraulic disk system nor likely to do so, or bleed
> > them as seem to last many years, and definitely into infrequent needs tools
> > so bike shop type of thing.
> >
> > Pads though are cup of tea and so on job, luckily as the moist weather is
> > trashing them!
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> It is almost always 'install once and leave them alone' especially nowadays where everything is within the frame. I installed the hydraulic disks of my friend for the experience. Not hard but some extra tools were required/handy that I could borrow from a colleague. On my own bikes I didn't install the brakes, only maintaining. On my 11 years old cross bike I bled the system only once two years ago; never touched the brakes on my 3.5 year old gravel bike. The biggest hassle is bedding in the new brake pads.
>
> Lou
I agree with you about Shimano brakes but try that on other company's.

On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 5:29:41 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 8:09:48 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 4:35:34 PM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:48:58 PM UTC+1, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> > > >> AMuzi, 2023-12-06 15:40+0100:
> > > >>> IMHO rim brake bicycles are not going away any time soon;
> > > >>> there will be more disc in the near future but probably not
> > > >>> 100%.
> > > >> Well, I must say it is becoming pretty hard to find a good hybrid bike
> > > >> with V-brake, or a naked bike frame with V-brake struts. (And by good, I
> > > >> mostly mean with freehub and cassette.) Hence my worry.
> > > >>> Disc pad replacement is quick and simple, usually with one
> > > >>> tool and fingers.
> > > >> I thought so.
> > > >>> Hydraulic line service is probably beyond most consumers but
> > > >>> not impossible. You'll need a service kit with line cutter,
> > > >>> replacement barbs and olives or seals, flare wrench(es), a
> > > >>> press for the end fittings and bleed tools besides the
> > > >>> proper fluid, brake cleaner etc.
> > > >> Ouch. That level of tooling and expertise clearly rules out hydraulic
> > > >> lines for me. And I would by no mean renounce to the ability to
> > > >> self-service my bike. Are cable-actuated disk brakes common enough?
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Tanguy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Installing and maintaining are two different things with hydraulic disc
> > > > brakes. For maintaining you don't need any special tool besides a bleed
> > > > kit but they are cheap.
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > >
> > > I’ve never installed a hydraulic disk system nor likely to do so, or bleed
> > > them as seem to last many years, and definitely into infrequent needs tools
> > > so bike shop type of thing.
> > >
> > > Pads though are cup of tea and so on job, luckily as the moist weather is
> > > trashing them!
> > >
> > > Roger Merriman
> > It is almost always 'install once and leave them alone' especially nowadays where everything is within the frame. I installed the hydraulic disks of my friend for the experience. Not hard but some extra tools were required/handy that I could borrow from a colleague. On my own bikes I didn't install the brakes, only maintaining. On my 11 years old cross bike I bled the system only once two years ago; never touched the brakes on my 3.5 year old gravel bike. The biggest hassle is bedding in the new brake pads.
> >
> > Lou
> I agree with you about Shimano brakes but try that on other company's.

Yes I talking about Shimano disk brakes. Why would you mess with that DOT stuff?

Lou

On 12/6/2023 9:23 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:48:58 PM UTC+1, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
>> AMuzi, 2023-12-06 15:40+0100:
>>> IMHO rim brake bicycles are not going away any time soon;
>>> there will be more disc in the near future but probably not
>>> 100%.
>> Well, I must say it is becoming pretty hard to find a good hybrid bike
>> with V-brake, or a naked bike frame with V-brake struts. (And by good, I
>> mostly mean with freehub and cassette.) Hence my worry.
>>> Disc pad replacement is quick and simple, usually with one
>>> tool and fingers.
>> I thought so.
>>> Hydraulic line service is probably beyond most consumers but
>>> not impossible. You'll need a service kit with line cutter,
>>> replacement barbs and olives or seals, flare wrench(es), a
>>> press for the end fittings and bleed tools besides the
>>> proper fluid, brake cleaner etc.
>> Ouch. That level of tooling and expertise clearly rules out hydraulic
>> lines for me. And I would by no mean renounce to the ability to
>> self-service my bike. Are cable-actuated disk brakes common enough?
>>
>> --
>> Tanguy
>
>
> Installing and maintaining are two different things with hydraulic disc brakes. For maintaining you don't need any special tool besides a bleed kit but they are cheap.
>
> Lou
>
> Lou

Agreed. OP made it complex by asking about changing line
lengths, which is indeed different from 'normal consumer
maintenance'.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/6/2023 10:29 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 8:09:48 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 4:35:34 PM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Lou Holtman <lou.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, December 6, 2023 at 3:48:58 PM UTC+1, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
>>>>> AMuzi, 2023-12-06 15:40+0100:
>>>>>> IMHO rim brake bicycles are not going away any time soon;
>>>>>> there will be more disc in the near future but probably not
>>>>>> 100%.
>>>>> Well, I must say it is becoming pretty hard to find a good hybrid bike
>>>>> with V-brake, or a naked bike frame with V-brake struts. (And by good, I
>>>>> mostly mean with freehub and cassette.) Hence my worry.
>>>>>> Disc pad replacement is quick and simple, usually with one
>>>>>> tool and fingers.
>>>>> I thought so.
>>>>>> Hydraulic line service is probably beyond most consumers but
>>>>>> not impossible. You'll need a service kit with line cutter,
>>>>>> replacement barbs and olives or seals, flare wrench(es), a
>>>>>> press for the end fittings and bleed tools besides the
>>>>>> proper fluid, brake cleaner etc.
>>>>> Ouch. That level of tooling and expertise clearly rules out hydraulic
>>>>> lines for me. And I would by no mean renounce to the ability to
>>>>> self-service my bike. Are cable-actuated disk brakes common enough?
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Tanguy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Installing and maintaining are two different things with hydraulic disc
>>>> brakes. For maintaining you don't need any special tool besides a bleed
>>>> kit but they are cheap.
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>> I’ve never installed a hydraulic disk system nor likely to do so, or bleed
>>> them as seem to last many years, and definitely into infrequent needs tools
>>> so bike shop type of thing.
>>>
>>> Pads though are cup of tea and so on job, luckily as the moist weather is
>>> trashing them!
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>> It is almost always 'install once and leave them alone' especially nowadays where everything is within the frame. I installed the hydraulic disks of my friend for the experience. Not hard but some extra tools were required/handy that I could borrow from a colleague. On my own bikes I didn't install the brakes, only maintaining. On my 11 years old cross bike I bled the system only once two years ago; never touched the brakes on my 3.5 year old gravel bike. The biggest hassle is bedding in the new brake pads.
>>
>> Lou
> I agree with you about Shimano brakes but try that on other company's.

Campagnolo disc system is also quite simple and straightforward.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi, 2023-12-06 17:52+0100:
> Agreed. OP made it complex by asking about changing line
> lengths, which is indeed different from 'normal consumer
> maintenance'.

Yes, I did, because I just had to change my trigger shifters, and latest
ones from Shimano were not compatible with my handlebar, which I
therefore had to change too, and the result needed less cable housing
length.

Well, with cable-actuated brakes, that was no trouble. As I understand
it, with a hydraulic circuit, it would.

But it goes beyond that, I am simply used to be able to maintain my bike
on my own. Having a part of it that I am not able to service, at least
not without extensive equipment, it simply not acceptable.

But as long as cable-actuated disc brakes are available, this could be
okay for me.

--
Tanguy

On 12/6/2023 12:13 PM, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
> I am simply used to be able to maintain my bike
> on my own. Having a part of it that I am not able to service, at least
> not without extensive equipment, it simply not acceptable.

I strongly agree.

--
- Frank Krygowski