Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

Logic is the chastity belt of the mind!


tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

SubjectAuthor
* BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
+- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelswhit3rd
+* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
|+* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
||+* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
|||`* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
||| `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
|||  `- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsbitrex
||`* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsHul Tytus
|| `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelspiglet
||  +- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsHul Tytus
||  +- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
||  +- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn S
||  +* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
||  |`* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelspiglet
||  | `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
||  |  `- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
||  `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
||   `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelswhit3rd
||    `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
||     +- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
||     +* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelswhit3rd
||     |`* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Walliker
||     | +* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
||     | |`* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Walliker
||     | | `- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
||     | `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
||     |  +* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Walliker
||     |  |`- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
||     |  `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
||     |   `- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
||     +* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
||     |`* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
||     | `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
||     |  `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
||     |   `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
||     |    +* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
||     |    |`- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
||     |    `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelske...@kjwdesigns.com
||     |     `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
||     |      `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
||     |       `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
||     |        `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
||     |         `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
||     |          `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
||     |           `- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
||     `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelspiglet
||      `- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
|`- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJan Panteltje
`* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
 `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
  +* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
  |+* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsArie de Muijnck
  ||+* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
  |||`* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
  ||| `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
  |||  `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
  |||   +* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelswhit3rd
  |||   |`- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
  |||   +* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
  |||   |`* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
  |||   | `- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
  |||   `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn S
  |||    `- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin
  ||`* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsDon
  || `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
  ||  `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsDon
  ||   `- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPhil Hobbs
  |+- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsMartin Brown
  |`- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelswhit3rd
  `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsJohn Larkin
   `* Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsPiotr Wyderski
    `- Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levelsjlarkin

Pages:123
Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96759&group=sci.electronics.design#96759

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 15:19:59 -0500
From: jlar...@highland_atwork_technology.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:19:59 -0700
Organization: Highland Tech
Reply-To: xx@yy.com
Message-ID: <2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <2f703776-6d09-acb0-1e93-f8734fd2e87a@electrooptical.net> <t5hacu$tq1i$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <2qdo7hha3hgfif8apt3vn0j3t2c8bgf723@4ax.com> <t5ica9$ero$1@dont-email.me> <b519aab8-7f43-d8c9-e822-d0cdbff757ab@electrooptical.net> <7lfq7h15e72jdass4hct9pq5m8i2449742@4ax.com> <t5jlhk$1fg0$1@gioia.aioe.org>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 56
X-Trace: sv3-stb9Kz2LB4Y/GTggY9aHE57oSueMaQI2nkOfqIsy1AHhQwIMOkVoFTHcQAaejfyCJHBXCPrAkLdTCi/!3fLrJZtVzh2OHSsEHuY8FxVa0HqhIV9/4XWOG64o5ka77KjGowWFHJDkDR9MpSpqJEz4++raAPPE!SKInAA==
X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3375
 by: John Larkin - Thu, 12 May 2022 20:19 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 15:01:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 10:43:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Arie de Muijnck wrote:
>>>> On 2022-05-12 00:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I conjecture (ie guess) that base current makes collector current down
>>>>> at the single-electron level. 1 pA is just 6 milion electrons per
>>>>> second.
>>>>
>>>> AFAIK, it's not the base current but base voltage that controls the
>>>> collector current. The base current is just an unfortunate side effect.
>>>> The relation between them happens to be rather constant, hence the idea
>>>> that hfe is the main factor. Ideally, the base 'leakage' could be so low
>>>> that base current electrons can be counted. In that case, would the much
>>>> higher collector current come in packets?
>>>>
>>>> Arie
>>>
>>> Yup, a BJT is a transconductance device with a loss mechanism
>>> (recombination in the base region) that produces leakage current. IIRC
>>> Mikko Kiviranta or somebody said that the beta of a BFP650 goes up to
>>> above 10000 at low temperature.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> A transistor has c-b leakage, Is of the c-b diode, so turns itself on
>> with the base open. Spice at least suggests that any amount of added
>> base current increases collector current.
>>
>> That said, I don't understand this:
><snip>
>
>I went into the control panel and set chgtol and absolute current
>tolerance to 1E-18, and it works fine.
>
>Hopefully JT is smiling indulgently somewhere. ;)
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

What I don't understand is why the sine wave current source doesn't
make a sine wave of current.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<d99226fe-c8f4-450a-9a27-e36d92ffb17an@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96760&group=sci.electronics.design#96760

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
X-Received: by 2002:a0c:b312:0:b0:45a:a8d7:ecd6 with SMTP id s18-20020a0cb312000000b0045aa8d7ecd6mr1548372qve.100.1652387667709;
Thu, 12 May 2022 13:34:27 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a81:4b8a:0:b0:2fb:2b30:ea30 with SMTP id
y132-20020a814b8a000000b002fb2b30ea30mr2080416ywa.294.1652387667582; Thu, 12
May 2022 13:34:27 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 13:34:27 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=209.221.140.126; posting-account=vKQm_QoAAADOaDCYsqOFDAW8NJ8sFHoE
NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.221.140.126
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <2f703776-6d09-acb0-1e93-f8734fd2e87a@electrooptical.net>
<t5hacu$tq1i$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <2qdo7hha3hgfif8apt3vn0j3t2c8bgf723@4ax.com>
<t5ica9$ero$1@dont-email.me> <b519aab8-7f43-d8c9-e822-d0cdbff757ab@electrooptical.net>
<7lfq7h15e72jdass4hct9pq5m8i2449742@4ax.com> <t5jlhk$1fg0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <d99226fe-c8f4-450a-9a27-e36d92ffb17an@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
Injection-Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 20:34:27 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 2052
 by: whit3rd - Thu, 12 May 2022 20:34 UTC

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 1:20:11 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

> >John Larkin wrote:

> >> A transistor has c-b leakage, Is of the c-b diode, so turns itself on
> >> with the base open. Spice at least suggests that any amount of added
> >> base current increases collector current.

> What I don't understand is why the sine wave current source doesn't
> make a sine wave of current.

The base sees leakage plus a sinewave. How could that sum be
proportional to a sinewave, when your applied signal is a sine,
but leakage is a non-negligible constant?

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<b5ba7dc3-da94-a927-14bf-a60734d3d38e@electrooptical.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96761&group=sci.electronics.design#96761

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 16:41:47 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <b5ba7dc3-da94-a927-14bf-a60734d3d38e@electrooptical.net>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<2f703776-6d09-acb0-1e93-f8734fd2e87a@electrooptical.net>
<t5hacu$tq1i$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<2qdo7hha3hgfif8apt3vn0j3t2c8bgf723@4ax.com> <t5ica9$ero$1@dont-email.me>
<b519aab8-7f43-d8c9-e822-d0cdbff757ab@electrooptical.net>
<7lfq7h15e72jdass4hct9pq5m8i2449742@4ax.com> <t5jlhk$1fg0$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="366c696c9f9364916cb107cbacc3a943";
logging-data="15910"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19pTM93P8V8yeoaaTO2o8t7"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:wsGiDctByO/OOQf7SQ2zowCpyzc=
In-Reply-To: <2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com>
 by: Phil Hobbs - Thu, 12 May 2022 20:41 UTC

John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 15:01:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 10:43:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Arie de Muijnck wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-05-12 00:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I conjecture (ie guess) that base current makes collector current down
>>>>>> at the single-electron level. 1 pA is just 6 milion electrons per
>>>>>> second.
>>>>>
>>>>> AFAIK, it's not the base current but base voltage that controls the
>>>>> collector current. The base current is just an unfortunate side effect.
>>>>> The relation between them happens to be rather constant, hence the idea
>>>>> that hfe is the main factor. Ideally, the base 'leakage' could be so low
>>>>> that base current electrons can be counted. In that case, would the much
>>>>> higher collector current come in packets?
>>>>>
>>>>> Arie
>>>>
>>>> Yup, a BJT is a transconductance device with a loss mechanism
>>>> (recombination in the base region) that produces leakage current. IIRC
>>>> Mikko Kiviranta or somebody said that the beta of a BFP650 goes up to
>>>> above 10000 at low temperature.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>>> A transistor has c-b leakage, Is of the c-b diode, so turns itself on
>>> with the base open. Spice at least suggests that any amount of added
>>> base current increases collector current.
>>>
>>> That said, I don't understand this:
>> <snip>
>>
>> I went into the control panel and set chgtol and absolute current
>> tolerance to 1E-18, and it works fine.
>>
>> Hopefully JT is smiling indulgently somewhere. ;)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> What I don't understand is why the sine wave current source doesn't
> make a sine wave of current.
>

Right, but if you hack at the control panel as above, it does.

See <https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/JLpuzzle.png>.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<8cbr7h5l99p9qithcc9pjjhj3ufqjpbdqb@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96768&group=sci.electronics.design#96768

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!3.us.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 20:00:57 -0500
From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 18:00:59 -0700
Message-ID: <8cbr7h5l99p9qithcc9pjjhj3ufqjpbdqb@4ax.com>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <2f703776-6d09-acb0-1e93-f8734fd2e87a@electrooptical.net> <t5hacu$tq1i$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <2qdo7hha3hgfif8apt3vn0j3t2c8bgf723@4ax.com> <t5ica9$ero$1@dont-email.me> <b519aab8-7f43-d8c9-e822-d0cdbff757ab@electrooptical.net> <7lfq7h15e72jdass4hct9pq5m8i2449742@4ax.com> <t5jlhk$1fg0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com> <d99226fe-c8f4-450a-9a27-e36d92ffb17an@googlegroups.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
X-Trace: sv3-z6S4akqYoDuYbxiYDjL+ouijrFq/1CENn/8uckfnWB/ZlQCFbSn5HCrSftQaUPxVXN9yBC0IA3wt/5G!hV0KmGnSgvALR5LkQPicaUg5ExbGxTaLVvZlviOUJUaDtKGdnfM0CPwNFz1p27QyfYgjW//NpYi3!/C626Q==
X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 2285
 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Fri, 13 May 2022 01:00 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 13:34:27 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 1:20:11 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> >John Larkin wrote:
>
>> >> A transistor has c-b leakage, Is of the c-b diode, so turns itself on
>> >> with the base open. Spice at least suggests that any amount of added
>> >> base current increases collector current.
>
>> What I don't understand is why the sine wave current source doesn't
>> make a sine wave of current.
>
>The base sees leakage plus a sinewave. How could that sum be
>proportional to a sinewave, when your applied signal is a sine,
>but leakage is a non-negligible constant?

A current source shouldn't care about its load. It should make its
programmed current.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<5ocr7h9nainutpevcd7mcq6akn03jj4sfb@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96778&group=sci.electronics.design#96778

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 09:26:31 -0500
From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 07:26:32 -0700
Message-ID: <5ocr7h9nainutpevcd7mcq6akn03jj4sfb@4ax.com>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <2f703776-6d09-acb0-1e93-f8734fd2e87a@electrooptical.net> <t5hacu$tq1i$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <2qdo7hha3hgfif8apt3vn0j3t2c8bgf723@4ax.com> <t5ica9$ero$1@dont-email.me> <b519aab8-7f43-d8c9-e822-d0cdbff757ab@electrooptical.net> <7lfq7h15e72jdass4hct9pq5m8i2449742@4ax.com> <t5jlhk$1fg0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com> <b5ba7dc3-da94-a927-14bf-a60734d3d38e@electrooptical.net>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 78
X-Trace: sv3-tN9Qu8qL+VN71p4JZqEzS0Jcb/aFjls1C4wIdbtC683hdyYdtUXA4f+2Bq4GGvQZA9WPD1MBjCXdaEk!nzXOiGhasI+c8kPyTcsHJxcELp5cZIsb8Scb2SuXPrjzTfWUjStC5gZhjpEXYaN1vFtHwOxiq5aW!avf0mg==
X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3955
 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Fri, 13 May 2022 14:26 UTC

On Thu, 12 May 2022 16:41:47 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 15:01:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 10:43:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Arie de Muijnck wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-05-12 00:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I conjecture (ie guess) that base current makes collector current down
>>>>>>> at the single-electron level. 1 pA is just 6 milion electrons per
>>>>>>> second.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AFAIK, it's not the base current but base voltage that controls the
>>>>>> collector current. The base current is just an unfortunate side effect.
>>>>>> The relation between them happens to be rather constant, hence the idea
>>>>>> that hfe is the main factor. Ideally, the base 'leakage' could be so low
>>>>>> that base current electrons can be counted. In that case, would the much
>>>>>> higher collector current come in packets?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arie
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup, a BJT is a transconductance device with a loss mechanism
>>>>> (recombination in the base region) that produces leakage current. IIRC
>>>>> Mikko Kiviranta or somebody said that the beta of a BFP650 goes up to
>>>>> above 10000 at low temperature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>>> A transistor has c-b leakage, Is of the c-b diode, so turns itself on
>>>> with the base open. Spice at least suggests that any amount of added
>>>> base current increases collector current.
>>>>
>>>> That said, I don't understand this:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> I went into the control panel and set chgtol and absolute current
>>> tolerance to 1E-18, and it works fine.
>>>
>>> Hopefully JT is smiling indulgently somewhere. ;)
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> What I don't understand is why the sine wave current source doesn't
>> make a sine wave of current.
>>
>
>Right, but if you hack at the control panel as above, it does.
>
>See <https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/JLpuzzle.png>.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

I can get the current source to make a sine wave if I skip the initial
operating point solution, uic, with your spice settings, but the
collector current is goofy, a 250 Hz triangle.

One issue is maybe the roughly negative 1 gigavolt swing on the base.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<fb2f9488-15f4-4e34-6d52-78f86708999f@electrooptical.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96781&group=sci.electronics.design#96781

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 10:38:14 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <fb2f9488-15f4-4e34-6d52-78f86708999f@electrooptical.net>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<2f703776-6d09-acb0-1e93-f8734fd2e87a@electrooptical.net>
<t5hacu$tq1i$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<2qdo7hha3hgfif8apt3vn0j3t2c8bgf723@4ax.com> <t5ica9$ero$1@dont-email.me>
<b519aab8-7f43-d8c9-e822-d0cdbff757ab@electrooptical.net>
<7lfq7h15e72jdass4hct9pq5m8i2449742@4ax.com> <t5jlhk$1fg0$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com>
<b5ba7dc3-da94-a927-14bf-a60734d3d38e@electrooptical.net>
<5ocr7h9nainutpevcd7mcq6akn03jj4sfb@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="59793de41780d9831a4a79e22805dde7";
logging-data="9243"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+bNw2+JG5GgfPN2NNUfQU7"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:V4IIZh8eZaYzIKKlELqk1/avPRY=
In-Reply-To: <5ocr7h9nainutpevcd7mcq6akn03jj4sfb@4ax.com>
 by: Phil Hobbs - Fri, 13 May 2022 14:38 UTC

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 16:41:47 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 15:01:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 10:43:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Arie de Muijnck wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-05-12 00:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I conjecture (ie guess) that base current makes collector current down
>>>>>>>> at the single-electron level. 1 pA is just 6 milion electrons per
>>>>>>>> second.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AFAIK, it's not the base current but base voltage that controls the
>>>>>>> collector current. The base current is just an unfortunate side effect.
>>>>>>> The relation between them happens to be rather constant, hence the idea
>>>>>>> that hfe is the main factor. Ideally, the base 'leakage' could be so low
>>>>>>> that base current electrons can be counted. In that case, would the much
>>>>>>> higher collector current come in packets?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Arie
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup, a BJT is a transconductance device with a loss mechanism
>>>>>> (recombination in the base region) that produces leakage current. IIRC
>>>>>> Mikko Kiviranta or somebody said that the beta of a BFP650 goes up to
>>>>>> above 10000 at low temperature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>>
>>>>> A transistor has c-b leakage, Is of the c-b diode, so turns itself on
>>>>> with the base open. Spice at least suggests that any amount of added
>>>>> base current increases collector current.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, I don't understand this:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> I went into the control panel and set chgtol and absolute current
>>>> tolerance to 1E-18, and it works fine.
>>>>
>>>> Hopefully JT is smiling indulgently somewhere. ;)

>>>
>>> What I don't understand is why the sine wave current source doesn't
>>> make a sine wave of current.
>>>
>>
>> Right, but if you hack at the control panel as above, it does.
>>
>> See <https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/JLpuzzle.png>.

>
> I can get the current source to make a sine wave if I skip the initial
> operating point solution, uic, with your spice settings, but the
> collector current is goofy, a 250 Hz triangle.
>
> One issue is maybe the roughly negative 1 gigavolt swing on the base.

Nice and well-behaved for me, just tightening up all the tolerances
(including some on the compression page of the control panel, which
isn't shown on the screen shots).

<https://electrooptical.net/www/sed/JLpuzzle2.png>

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<t5n53q$ibp$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96803&group=sci.electronics.design#96803

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Soph...@invalid.org (John S)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 21:45:10 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 119
Message-ID: <t5n53q$ibp$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<2f703776-6d09-acb0-1e93-f8734fd2e87a@electrooptical.net>
<t5hacu$tq1i$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<2qdo7hha3hgfif8apt3vn0j3t2c8bgf723@4ax.com> <t5ica9$ero$1@dont-email.me>
<b519aab8-7f43-d8c9-e822-d0cdbff757ab@electrooptical.net>
<7lfq7h15e72jdass4hct9pq5m8i2449742@4ax.com> <t5jlhk$1fg0$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 02:45:14 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="a7ebb4ba2299066103a733eaf2bf5447";
logging-data="18809"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/y+1SvoD5ov4aBKo+25qyU"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:T9NsFt+30LUPY5cjGJNX6XLCnBk=
In-Reply-To: <2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: John S - Sat, 14 May 2022 02:45 UTC

On 5/12/2022 3:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 12 May 2022 15:01:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 10:43:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Arie de Muijnck wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-05-12 00:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I conjecture (ie guess) that base current makes collector current down
>>>>>> at the single-electron level. 1 pA is just 6 milion electrons per
>>>>>> second.
>>>>>
>>>>> AFAIK, it's not the base current but base voltage that controls the
>>>>> collector current. The base current is just an unfortunate side effect.
>>>>> The relation between them happens to be rather constant, hence the idea
>>>>> that hfe is the main factor. Ideally, the base 'leakage' could be so low
>>>>> that base current electrons can be counted. In that case, would the much
>>>>> higher collector current come in packets?
>>>>>
>>>>> Arie
>>>>
>>>> Yup, a BJT is a transconductance device with a loss mechanism
>>>> (recombination in the base region) that produces leakage current. IIRC
>>>> Mikko Kiviranta or somebody said that the beta of a BFP650 goes up to
>>>> above 10000 at low temperature.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>>> A transistor has c-b leakage, Is of the c-b diode, so turns itself on
>>> with the base open. Spice at least suggests that any amount of added
>>> base current increases collector current.
>>>
>>> That said, I don't understand this:
>> <snip>
>>
>> I went into the control panel and set chgtol and absolute current
>> tolerance to 1E-18, and it works fine.
>>
>> Hopefully JT is smiling indulgently somewhere. ;)
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> What I don't understand is why the sine wave current source doesn't
> make a sine wave of current.
>

Works great!

Version 4
SHEET 1 880 680
WIRE -96 64 -176 64
WIRE 288 80 272 80
WIRE 304 80 288 80
WIRE 416 80 384 80
WIRE -176 128 -176 64
WIRE -96 128 -96 64
WIRE 272 128 272 80
WIRE 416 144 416 80
WIRE 176 176 144 176
WIRE 208 176 176 176
WIRE 144 208 144 176
WIRE -176 224 -176 208
WIRE -96 224 -96 208
WIRE 272 288 272 224
WIRE 416 288 416 224
WIRE 144 320 144 288
FLAG 272 288 0
FLAG 416 288 0
FLAG 144 320 0
FLAG 176 176 B
FLAG 288 80 C
FLAG -176 224 0
FLAG -96 224 0
SYMBOL npn 208 128 R0
WINDOW 0 83 28 Left 2
WINDOW 3 56 54 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName Q1
SYMATTR Value 2N5550
SYMBOL voltage 416 128 R0
WINDOW 0 49 37 Left 2
WINDOW 3 54 64 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 5
SYMBOL current 144 288 R180
WINDOW 0 54 35 Left 2
WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 2
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName I1
SYMATTR Value SINE(0 100f 1)
SYMBOL res 400 64 R90
WINDOW 0 -8 51 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 1
SYMBOL current -176 208 R180
WINDOW 0 54 35 Left 2
WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 2
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName I2
SYMATTR Value SINE(0 100f 1)
SYMBOL res -112 112 R0
SYMATTR InstName R2
SYMATTR Value 1g
TEXT 56 144 Left 2 !.tran 2
TEXT 528 184 Left 2 !.op abstol 1e-18
TEXT 528 216 Left 2 !.op gmin 1e-18
TEXT 0 56 Left 2 ;Low current NPN test
TEXT 32 88 Left 2 ;JL May 12 2022

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96812&group=sci.electronics.design#96812

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!panix!.POSTED.panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail
From: ht...@panix.com (Hul Tytus)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 06:04:39 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com> <t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
Injection-Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 06:04:39 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader1.panix.com; posting-host="panix2.panix.com:166.84.1.2";
logging-data="23182"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@panix.com"
 by: Hul Tytus - Sat, 14 May 2022 06:04 UTC

Piotr you might look at the hc cmos series. They will operate in
the 1 volt range with the expected lower current. One maker spoke
of characterizing their devices at one something volts.
I experimented with those supply voltages for devices
working in the 100k cps area and all seemed pheasable.

Hul

Piotr Wyderski <bombald@protonmail.com> wrote:
> John Larkin wrote:

> > There is a niche of building oscillators that run at very low supply
> > voltages, ballpark 10 mV. I think jfets do pretty good.

> Yes, there are several interesting examples. The lowest voltage I know
> of is 20mV. But in this off-time research application related to the
> recent CeraCharge purchase I am trying to minimize current consumption,
> not voltage. It can stop oscillating at 1.2V, no problem with that. But
> if the current could be as low as 20nA, that would be something.

> Best regards, Piotr

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<5nev7hpphkfj2ou7lmbl41e76ho5k4pv2g@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96819&group=sci.electronics.design#96819

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 09:22:36 -0500
From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 07:22:37 -0700
Message-ID: <5nev7hpphkfj2ou7lmbl41e76ho5k4pv2g@4ax.com>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <2f703776-6d09-acb0-1e93-f8734fd2e87a@electrooptical.net> <t5hacu$tq1i$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <2qdo7hha3hgfif8apt3vn0j3t2c8bgf723@4ax.com> <t5ica9$ero$1@dont-email.me> <b519aab8-7f43-d8c9-e822-d0cdbff757ab@electrooptical.net> <7lfq7h15e72jdass4hct9pq5m8i2449742@4ax.com> <t5jlhk$1fg0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <2tqq7h5t1ot85113js80c83u9mqlqb6u88@4ax.com> <t5n53q$ibp$1@dont-email.me>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 135
X-Trace: sv3-aQLiwo1KS0Us9pBzCThoRQmgFInMKcAUQlZBgMEVGLOapjhUcqErg513rUPlc3IQ2p2aGjOkRpEJCBL!H2EiREdrF5f/LMrFhAf6LDjudemAs3hcm8XcH9FLfBPz5cHDJ0VuRfiPIfGtGpcvppezNOkQh0Dx!tdT2Jg==
X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 5125
 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sat, 14 May 2022 14:22 UTC

On Fri, 13 May 2022 21:45:10 -0500, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org>
wrote:

>On 5/12/2022 3:19 PM, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 15:01:06 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 May 2022 10:43:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Arie de Muijnck wrote:
>>>>>> On 2022-05-12 00:30, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I conjecture (ie guess) that base current makes collector current down
>>>>>>> at the single-electron level. 1 pA is just 6 milion electrons per
>>>>>>> second.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AFAIK, it's not the base current but base voltage that controls the
>>>>>> collector current. The base current is just an unfortunate side effect.
>>>>>> The relation between them happens to be rather constant, hence the idea
>>>>>> that hfe is the main factor. Ideally, the base 'leakage' could be so low
>>>>>> that base current electrons can be counted. In that case, would the much
>>>>>> higher collector current come in packets?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arie
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup, a BJT is a transconductance device with a loss mechanism
>>>>> (recombination in the base region) that produces leakage current. IIRC
>>>>> Mikko Kiviranta or somebody said that the beta of a BFP650 goes up to
>>>>> above 10000 at low temperature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>>> A transistor has c-b leakage, Is of the c-b diode, so turns itself on
>>>> with the base open. Spice at least suggests that any amount of added
>>>> base current increases collector current.
>>>>
>>>> That said, I don't understand this:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> I went into the control panel and set chgtol and absolute current
>>> tolerance to 1E-18, and it works fine.
>>>
>>> Hopefully JT is smiling indulgently somewhere. ;)
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> What I don't understand is why the sine wave current source doesn't
>> make a sine wave of current.
>>
>
>
>Works great!

Not really. If yoy disconnect the base, the current source still
swings +- 100 mv. That depends on some Spice settings.

>
>Version 4
>SHEET 1 880 680
>WIRE -96 64 -176 64
>WIRE 288 80 272 80
>WIRE 304 80 288 80
>WIRE 416 80 384 80
>WIRE -176 128 -176 64
>WIRE -96 128 -96 64
>WIRE 272 128 272 80
>WIRE 416 144 416 80
>WIRE 176 176 144 176
>WIRE 208 176 176 176
>WIRE 144 208 144 176
>WIRE -176 224 -176 208
>WIRE -96 224 -96 208
>WIRE 272 288 272 224
>WIRE 416 288 416 224
>WIRE 144 320 144 288
>FLAG 272 288 0
>FLAG 416 288 0
>FLAG 144 320 0
>FLAG 176 176 B
>FLAG 288 80 C
>FLAG -176 224 0
>FLAG -96 224 0
>SYMBOL npn 208 128 R0
>WINDOW 0 83 28 Left 2
>WINDOW 3 56 54 Left 2
>SYMATTR InstName Q1
>SYMATTR Value 2N5550
>SYMBOL voltage 416 128 R0
>WINDOW 0 49 37 Left 2
>WINDOW 3 54 64 Left 2
>SYMATTR InstName V1
>SYMATTR Value 5
>SYMBOL current 144 288 R180
>WINDOW 0 54 35 Left 2
>WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 2
>WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
>WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
>SYMATTR InstName I1
>SYMATTR Value SINE(0 100f 1)
>SYMBOL res 400 64 R90
>WINDOW 0 -8 51 VBottom 2
>WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
>SYMATTR InstName R1
>SYMATTR Value 1
>SYMBOL current -176 208 R180
>WINDOW 0 54 35 Left 2
>WINDOW 3 24 0 Left 2
>WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
>WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
>SYMATTR InstName I2
>SYMATTR Value SINE(0 100f 1)
>SYMBOL res -112 112 R0
>SYMATTR InstName R2
>SYMATTR Value 1g
>TEXT 56 144 Left 2 !.tran 2
>TEXT 528 184 Left 2 !.op abstol 1e-18
>TEXT 528 216 Left 2 !.op gmin 1e-18
>TEXT 0 56 Left 2 ;Low current NPN test
>TEXT 32 88 Left 2 ;JL May 12 2022

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96837&group=sci.electronics.design#96837

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: erichpwa...@hotmail.com (piglet)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 19:03:40 +0100
Organization: A noisome patent Spinner
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 18:03:41 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="7160ce55685dfd2e20c06ff351a5e34e";
logging-data="21268"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+Y8ti1+KG2HtiVEaQDdWYQ"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.3.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:G+i5NaNgKH/vCXAAbY1l53r0jv8=
In-Reply-To: <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: piglet - Sat, 14 May 2022 18:03 UTC

On 14/05/2022 07:04, Hul Tytus wrote:
> Piotr you might look at the hc cmos series. They will operate in
> the 1 volt range with the expected lower current. One maker spoke
> of characterizing their devices at one something volts.
> I experimented with those supply voltages for devices
> working in the 100k cps area and all seemed pheasable.
>
> Hul
>

Yes, I actually experienced HC cmos retaining stored latch states down
into tens of millivolts region. However to make any kind of oscillator
means passing slowly through a linear region and current consumption
will shoot up. To make an oscillator a discrete design with high value
series resistors might be better, this draws an average 10nA to make
narrow pulses every 8-9 secs...

Version 4
SHEET 1 1160 680
WIRE 32 -640 -208 -640
WIRE 336 -640 32 -640
WIRE 864 -640 336 -640
WIRE 336 -592 336 -640
WIRE 32 -544 32 -640
WIRE 864 -464 864 -640
WIRE 336 -432 336 -512
WIRE 576 -432 336 -432
WIRE 336 -368 336 -432
WIRE 32 -320 32 -464
WIRE 272 -320 32 -320
WIRE 576 -304 576 -432
WIRE 32 -240 32 -320
WIRE 336 -192 336 -272
WIRE 576 -144 576 -240
WIRE 576 -144 400 -144
WIRE 576 -80 576 -144
WIRE 32 -16 32 -176
WIRE 336 -16 336 -96
WIRE 336 -16 32 -16
WIRE 864 32 864 -384
WIRE -208 64 -208 -640
WIRE 336 80 336 -16
WIRE 432 80 336 80
WIRE 800 80 512 80
WIRE 336 176 336 80
WIRE -208 288 -208 144
WIRE 336 288 336 256
WIRE 336 288 -208 288
WIRE 576 288 576 0
WIRE 576 288 336 288
WIRE 864 288 864 128
WIRE 864 288 576 288
WIRE -208 320 -208 288
FLAG -208 320 0
SYMBOL voltage -208 48 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 1.3
SYMBOL pnp 400 -96 R180
SYMATTR InstName Q1
SYMATTR Value 2N3906
SYMBOL npn 272 -368 R0
SYMATTR InstName Q2
SYMATTR Value 2N3904
SYMBOL res 320 -608 R0
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 10Meg
SYMBOL res 560 -96 R0
SYMATTR InstName R3
SYMATTR Value 100Meg
SYMBOL res 16 -560 R0
SYMATTR InstName R4
SYMATTR Value 100Meg
SYMBOL cap 16 -240 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value 100n
SYMBOL cap 560 -304 R0
SYMATTR InstName C2
SYMATTR Value 100n
SYMBOL npn 800 32 R0
SYMATTR InstName Q3
SYMATTR Value 2N3904
SYMBOL res 848 -480 R0
SYMATTR InstName R5
SYMATTR Value 10Meg
SYMBOL res 320 160 R0
SYMATTR InstName R6
SYMATTR Value 10Meg
SYMBOL res 528 64 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R2
SYMATTR Value 10Meg
TEXT -242 360 Left 2 !.tran 100
TEXT 928 336 Left 2 ;EPW SED MAY 2022
TEXT 928 288 Left 2 ;Nano power pulser

piglet

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<t5p4g8$g72$1@reader1.panix.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96840&group=sci.electronics.design#96840

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!panix!.POSTED.panix2.panix.com!not-for-mail
From: ht...@panix.com (Hul Tytus)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 20:47:04 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <t5p4g8$g72$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com> <t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com> <t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 20:47:04 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader1.panix.com; posting-host="panix2.panix.com:166.84.1.2";
logging-data="16610"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@panix.com"
 by: Hul Tytus - Sat, 14 May 2022 20:47 UTC

Good point for an osicilator. The 10's of millivolts range you mention
is an interesting area.

Hul

piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 07:04, Hul Tytus wrote:
> > Piotr you might look at the hc cmos series. They will operate in
> > the 1 volt range with the expected lower current. One maker spoke
> > of characterizing their devices at one something volts.
> > I experimented with those supply voltages for devices
> > working in the 100k cps area and all seemed pheasable.
> >
> > Hul
> >

> Yes, I actually experienced HC cmos retaining stored latch states down
> into tens of millivolts region. However to make any kind of oscillator
> means passing slowly through a linear region and current consumption
> will shoot up. To make an oscillator a discrete design with high value
> series resistors might be better, this draws an average 10nA to make
> narrow pulses every 8-9 secs...

> Version 4
> SHEET 1 1160 680
> WIRE 32 -640 -208 -640
> WIRE 336 -640 32 -640
> WIRE 864 -640 336 -640
> WIRE 336 -592 336 -640
> WIRE 32 -544 32 -640
> WIRE 864 -464 864 -640
> WIRE 336 -432 336 -512
> WIRE 576 -432 336 -432
> WIRE 336 -368 336 -432
> WIRE 32 -320 32 -464
> WIRE 272 -320 32 -320
> WIRE 576 -304 576 -432
> WIRE 32 -240 32 -320
> WIRE 336 -192 336 -272
> WIRE 576 -144 576 -240
> WIRE 576 -144 400 -144
> WIRE 576 -80 576 -144
> WIRE 32 -16 32 -176
> WIRE 336 -16 336 -96
> WIRE 336 -16 32 -16
> WIRE 864 32 864 -384
> WIRE -208 64 -208 -640
> WIRE 336 80 336 -16
> WIRE 432 80 336 80
> WIRE 800 80 512 80
> WIRE 336 176 336 80
> WIRE -208 288 -208 144
> WIRE 336 288 336 256
> WIRE 336 288 -208 288
> WIRE 576 288 576 0
> WIRE 576 288 336 288
> WIRE 864 288 864 128
> WIRE 864 288 576 288
> WIRE -208 320 -208 288
> FLAG -208 320 0
> SYMBOL voltage -208 48 R0
> WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
> WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
> SYMATTR InstName V1
> SYMATTR Value 1.3
> SYMBOL pnp 400 -96 R180
> SYMATTR InstName Q1
> SYMATTR Value 2N3906
> SYMBOL npn 272 -368 R0
> SYMATTR InstName Q2
> SYMATTR Value 2N3904
> SYMBOL res 320 -608 R0
> SYMATTR InstName R1
> SYMATTR Value 10Meg
> SYMBOL res 560 -96 R0
> SYMATTR InstName R3
> SYMATTR Value 100Meg
> SYMBOL res 16 -560 R0
> SYMATTR InstName R4
> SYMATTR Value 100Meg
> SYMBOL cap 16 -240 R0
> SYMATTR InstName C1
> SYMATTR Value 100n
> SYMBOL cap 560 -304 R0
> SYMATTR InstName C2
> SYMATTR Value 100n
> SYMBOL npn 800 32 R0
> SYMATTR InstName Q3
> SYMATTR Value 2N3904
> SYMBOL res 848 -480 R0
> SYMATTR InstName R5
> SYMATTR Value 10Meg
> SYMBOL res 320 160 R0
> SYMATTR InstName R6
> SYMATTR Value 10Meg
> SYMBOL res 528 64 R90
> WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
> WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
> SYMATTR InstName R2
> SYMATTR Value 10Meg
> TEXT -242 360 Left 2 !.tran 100
> TEXT 928 336 Left 2 ;EPW SED MAY 2022
> TEXT 928 288 Left 2 ;Nano power pulser

> piglet

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<t5p597$3spe6$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96841&group=sci.electronics.design#96841

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.uzoreto.com!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer01.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!newsfeed.neostrada.pl!unt-exc-01.news.neostrada.pl!wsisiz.edu.pl!.POSTED.h82-143-146-166-static.e-wro.net.pl!not-for-mail
From: bomb...@protonmail.com (Piotr Wyderski)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 23:00:12 +0200
Organization: http://www.wit.edu.pl
Message-ID: <t5p597$3spe6$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 21:00:23 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl; posting-host="h82-143-146-166-static.e-wro.net.pl:82.143.146.166";
logging-data="4089286"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@wsisiz.edu.pl"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me>
X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 220514-4, 5/14/2022), Outbound message
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Received-Bytes: 4595
 by: Piotr Wyderski - Sat, 14 May 2022 21:00 UTC

piglet wrote:

> Yes, I actually experienced HC cmos retaining stored latch states down
> into tens of millivolts region. However to make any kind of oscillator
> means passing slowly through a linear region and current consumption
> will shoot up. To make an oscillator a discrete design with high value
> series resistors might be better, this draws an average 10nA to make
> narrow pulses every 8-9 secs...

Nice, your edges are super sharp. Here is mine, sort of 1us pulses at
14Hz with 30nA average at 3V. The perhaps interesting part is the narrow
pulse generator: the pulse duration is limited by the energy stored in
C2, as the discharging cycle itself is orders of magnitude longer. With
R7 I can specify any reasonable duration and it comes at no additional
energy cost, as the energy to be dissipated has already come through R4.

On the downside, I got stuck here: no idea how to transform the 100mV
V_OUT pulses into the full VDD swing without a fancy 100mV Vth
transistor and still keep the average power consumption low. The bias
network for a differential amplifier or a common base stage will burn
hundreds of times more power than the oscillator. Inductors don't seem
to help here.

Best regards, Piotr

Version 4
SHEET 1 880 680
WIRE -176 -336 -256 -336
WIRE -48 -336 -96 -336
WIRE 0 -336 -48 -336
WIRE 192 -336 80 -336
WIRE 368 -336 192 -336
WIRE 576 -336 368 -336
WIRE -48 -320 -48 -336
WIRE 368 -272 368 -336
WIRE -48 -240 -48 -256
WIRE 192 -224 192 -336
WIRE 576 -192 576 -336
WIRE 368 -176 368 -192
WIRE 528 -176 368 -176
WIRE -256 -160 -256 -336
WIRE 368 -160 368 -176
WIRE 192 -80 192 -144
WIRE 192 -80 144 -80
WIRE 288 -80 192 -80
WIRE 320 -80 288 -80
WIRE 576 -80 576 -96
WIRE 688 -80 576 -80
WIRE -256 -64 -256 -80
WIRE 576 -64 576 -80
WIRE 192 -48 192 -80
WIRE 288 -32 288 -80
WIRE 192 32 192 16
WIRE 368 32 368 -64
WIRE 576 32 576 16
WIRE 288 80 288 48
WIRE 688 160 688 -80
WIRE 688 160 336 160
WIRE 288 192 288 176
WIRE 288 192 144 192
WIRE 288 208 288 192
WIRE 288 304 288 288
FLAG -256 -64 0
FLAG -48 -240 0
FLAG 368 32 0
FLAG 576 32 0
FLAG 192 32 0
FLAG 144 -80 V_C2
FLAG 288 304 0
FLAG 144 192 V_OUT
SYMBOL voltage -256 -176 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 0
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 3v
SYMBOL res -16 -320 R270
WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 2
WINDOW 3 0 56 VBottom 2
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 1m
SYMBOL cap -64 -320 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1
SYMATTR Value 100n
SYMBOL res -192 -320 R270
WINDOW 0 32 56 VTop 2
WINDOW 3 0 56 VBottom 2
SYMATTR InstName R2
SYMATTR Value 1m
SYMBOL nmos 320 -160 R0
SYMATTR InstName M1
SYMATTR Value BSS123
SYMBOL res 352 -288 R0
SYMATTR InstName R3
SYMATTR Value 47Meg
SYMBOL res 176 -240 R0
SYMATTR InstName R4
SYMATTR Value 200Meg
SYMBOL pmos 528 -96 M180
SYMATTR InstName M2
SYMATTR Value BSS84
SYMBOL res 560 -80 R0
SYMATTR InstName R5
SYMATTR Value 15Meg
SYMBOL cap 176 -48 R0
SYMATTR InstName C2
SYMATTR Value 470p
SYMBOL nmos 336 80 M0
SYMATTR InstName M3
SYMATTR Value BSS123
SYMBOL res 272 -48 R0
SYMATTR InstName R6
SYMATTR Value 1m
SYMBOL res 272 192 R0
SYMATTR InstName R7
SYMATTR Value 330
TEXT -280 16 Left 2 !.ic V(V_C2)=0
TEXT -290 328 Left 2 !.tran 1

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<t5r7r0$p8m$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96908&group=sci.electronics.design#96908

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Soph...@invalid.org (John S)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 10:56:16 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <t5r7r0$p8m$1@dont-email.me>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 15:56:16 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="3f3bc610baa1b360114f55d452e9536d";
logging-data="25878"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+Xowl+s7p7L2SHZ76wQR+L"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:m66kqmgbRbp6gqcXuRyxoAi6TWI=
In-Reply-To: <t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: John S - Sun, 15 May 2022 15:56 UTC

On 5/14/2022 1:03 PM, piglet wrote:
> On 14/05/2022 07:04, Hul Tytus wrote:
>> Piotr  you might look at the hc cmos series. They will operate in
>> the 1 volt range with the expected lower current. One maker spoke
>> of characterizing their devices at one something volts.
>>     I experimented with those supply voltages for devices
>> working in the 100k cps area and all seemed pheasable.
>>
>> Hul
>>
>
> Yes, I actually experienced HC cmos retaining stored latch states down
> into tens of millivolts region. However to make any kind of oscillator
> means passing slowly through a linear region and current consumption
> will shoot up. To make an oscillator a discrete design with high value
> series resistors might be better, this draws an average 10nA to make
> narrow pulses every 8-9 secs...
>
> Version 4
[Snip SPICE listing]
> piglet

Keep everything clean while building!

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<t6dvk0$3qv14$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97457&group=sci.electronics.design#97457

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!newsfeed.neostrada.pl!unt-exc-02.news.neostrada.pl!wsisiz.edu.pl!.POSTED.h82-143-146-166-static.e-wro.net.pl!not-for-mail
From: bomb...@protonmail.com (Piotr Wyderski)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 20:32:20 +0200
Organization: http://www.wit.edu.pl
Message-ID: <t6dvk0$3qv14$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 18:32:32 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl; posting-host="h82-143-146-166-static.e-wro.net.pl:82.143.146.166";
logging-data="4029476"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@wsisiz.edu.pl"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me>
X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 220522-0, 5/22/2022), Outbound message
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Received-Bytes: 1782
 by: Piotr Wyderski - Sun, 22 May 2022 18:32 UTC

piglet wrote:

> To make an oscillator a discrete design with high value
> series resistors might be better, this draws an average 10nA to make
> narrow pulses every 8-9 secs...

After some prototyping I can confirm, your UJT-emulating circuit wins
hands down. I removed R6, R2, Q3 and R5, changed C1 and C2 to 470p and
coupled to the C2 discharge energy via a small transformer, getting
beautiful 1us spikes @28Hz. Thank you, Piglet!

Best regards, Piotr

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97537&group=sci.electronics.design#97537

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 12:19:19 -0500
From: jlar...@highland_atwork_technology.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 10:19:18 -0700
Organization: Highland Tech
Reply-To: xx@yy.com
Message-ID: <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com> <t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com> <t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 33
X-Trace: sv3-pDBdchwhezAwEm1U0Pu9n8lvxgw2h3uXbg9xHg8QiLSENW0/xpNF/NjTOsb7kR4+fpgbOrYdpWkmVoD!4UG4PQuXs2pPJMum9/rKagS95iJztNA7FtdqzKN0pt4JLMz/OSg26khC/C6Z7tGN722eKxdkfjzA!7iY31w==
X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 2633
 by: John Larkin - Mon, 23 May 2022 17:19 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 19:03:40 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 14/05/2022 07:04, Hul Tytus wrote:
>> Piotr you might look at the hc cmos series. They will operate in
>> the 1 volt range with the expected lower current. One maker spoke
>> of characterizing their devices at one something volts.
>> I experimented with those supply voltages for devices
>> working in the 100k cps area and all seemed pheasable.
>>
>> Hul
>>
>
>Yes, I actually experienced HC cmos retaining stored latch states down
>into tens of millivolts region. However to make any kind of oscillator
>means passing slowly through a linear region and current consumption
>will shoot up. To make an oscillator a discrete design with high value
>series resistors might be better, this draws an average 10nA to make
>narrow pulses every 8-9 secs...
>

I want an LED blinker to show that a high-voltage power supply is
still dangerous. It should discharge the supply at some low current
and blink from, say, 1400 volts down to maybe 40.

A variant of your circuit might work. Charge a cap through a string of
depletion fets and modify your thing with a zener between emitters.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97540&group=sci.electronics.design#97540

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:58b4:0:b0:461:ca02:7577 with SMTP id ea20-20020ad458b4000000b00461ca027577mr17903716qvb.71.1653329161121;
Mon, 23 May 2022 11:06:01 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a5b:105:0:b0:64e:22e5:52b3 with SMTP id
5-20020a5b0105000000b0064e22e552b3mr24437032ybx.349.1653329160927; Mon, 23
May 2022 11:06:00 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 11:06:00 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=209.221.140.126; posting-account=vKQm_QoAAADOaDCYsqOFDAW8NJ8sFHoE
NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.221.140.126
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me> <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
Injection-Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 18:06:01 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 1766
 by: whit3rd - Mon, 23 May 2022 18:06 UTC

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 10:19:30 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

> I want an LED blinker to show that a high-voltage power supply is
> still dangerous. It should discharge the supply at some low current
> and blink from, say, 1400 volts down to maybe 40.

So, a series string of fifteen current-limit diodes running a capacitor-
diac-LED blinkielight? S-272 seems suitable

<https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/362/P22-23-CRD-1729293.pdf>

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97551&group=sci.electronics.design#97551

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 17:28:59 -0500
From: jlar...@highland_atwork_technology.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 15:28:59 -0700
Organization: Highland Tech
Reply-To: xx@yy.com
Message-ID: <qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com> <t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com> <t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me> <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com> <10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 27
X-Trace: sv3-1CzVSCdZb0FJGORrf1XPGl/dz1pmJjbvOxtJOS9kQ1lcgJ7BW60OnNBlXkMiKQBeg7uheHSV0XrT7aI!D+0Ao4JGnOtSLko0q8NYXIoQMHEISUvIi8LvobOBpueG48IHi3azHnHPSMUWCgPJ1eEuoGDFL48W!u5YWiQ==
X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 2352
X-Received-Bytes: 2443
 by: John Larkin - Mon, 23 May 2022 22:28 UTC

On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:06:00 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 10:19:30 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> I want an LED blinker to show that a high-voltage power supply is
>> still dangerous. It should discharge the supply at some low current
>> and blink from, say, 1400 volts down to maybe 40.
>
>So, a series string of fifteen current-limit diodes running a capacitor-
>diac-LED blinkielight? S-272 seems suitable
>
><https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/362/P22-23-CRD-1729293.pdf>

The Supertex LND150 is a 500 volt depletion fet. A source resistor
will program the current, and they can apparently be strung in series
without problems.

Three of them would do. They are around 30 cents each.

A spin on Piglet's circuit might to the blinker.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<t6hnkd$1p74g$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97566&group=sci.electronics.design#97566

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!newsfeed.neostrada.pl!unt-exc-02.news.neostrada.pl!wsisiz.edu.pl!.POSTED.h82-143-146-166-static.e-wro.net.pl!not-for-mail
From: bomb...@protonmail.com (Piotr Wyderski)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 06:40:33 +0200
Organization: http://www.wit.edu.pl
Message-ID: <t6hnkd$1p74g$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me> <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>
<10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com>
<qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 04:40:45 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl; posting-host="h82-143-146-166-static.e-wro.net.pl:82.143.146.166";
logging-data="1875088"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@wsisiz.edu.pl"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.9.0
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 220523-6, 5/23/2022), Outbound message
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
X-Received-Bytes: 1866
 by: Piotr Wyderski - Tue, 24 May 2022 04:40 UTC

John Larkin wrote:

> A spin on Piglet's circuit might to the blinker.

It might, but Piglet's circuit excels at low power. This is not what you
want to discharge a capacitor. Just power a 3V3-12V zener through your
DMOS at the highest possible current limited by its thermal SOA and
power any blinker from that zener. Plenty of free milliwatts to burn.

Best regards, Piotr

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<fb3851e3-cb41-4850-a38e-a66ab8e9ce0cn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97583&group=sci.electronics.design#97583

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:208:b0:461:d511:c170 with SMTP id i8-20020a056214020800b00461d511c170mr19982491qvt.44.1653379697426;
Tue, 24 May 2022 01:08:17 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:3a1:b0:2ff:1377:3b9 with SMTP id
bh33-20020a05690c03a100b002ff137703b9mr27164396ywb.340.1653379697216; Tue, 24
May 2022 01:08:17 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 01:08:17 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=209.221.140.126; posting-account=vKQm_QoAAADOaDCYsqOFDAW8NJ8sFHoE
NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.221.140.126
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me> <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>
<10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com> <qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <fb3851e3-cb41-4850-a38e-a66ab8e9ce0cn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
Injection-Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 08:08:17 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: whit3rd - Tue, 24 May 2022 08:08 UTC

On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 3:29:10 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:06:00 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 10:19:30 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> >
> >> I want an LED blinker to show that a high-voltage power supply is
> >> still dangerous. It should discharge the supply at some low current
> >> and blink from, say, 1400 volts down to maybe 40.
> >
> >So, a series string of fifteen current-limit diodes running a capacitor-
> >diac-LED blinkielight? S-272 seems suitable
> >
> ><https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/362/P22-23-CRD-1729293.pdf>
> The Supertex LND150 is a 500 volt depletion fet. A source resistor
> will program the current, and they can apparently be strung in series
> without problems.

Yeah, and a 'current-limit diode' is also a depletion FET. With a zener
limit specified (I'm not sure about LND150). Multiples only share
the voltage with such a matching zener specification.

A resistor would work, too, but the alarm blinkie would change frequency
dramatically.

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<2797a3ac-fc3b-44d3-8ec6-ffeb62310b88n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97596&group=sci.electronics.design#97596

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:27cd:b0:6a3:756f:8267 with SMTP id i13-20020a05620a27cd00b006a3756f8267mr7681323qkp.374.1653396782954;
Tue, 24 May 2022 05:53:02 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:c803:0:b0:654:f985:9bbb with SMTP id
y3-20020a25c803000000b00654f9859bbbmr1171207ybf.267.1653396782705; Tue, 24
May 2022 05:53:02 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 05:53:02 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <fb3851e3-cb41-4850-a38e-a66ab8e9ce0cn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:8b0:fb4e:0:8286:f2ff:fe6b:6c87;
posting-account=de11ZAoAAACBQRb2jWnaIkHYK2q9mRvs
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:8b0:fb4e:0:8286:f2ff:fe6b:6c87
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me> <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>
<10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com> <qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
<fb3851e3-cb41-4850-a38e-a66ab8e9ce0cn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <2797a3ac-fc3b-44d3-8ec6-ffeb62310b88n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
From: jrwalli...@gmail.com (John Walliker)
Injection-Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 12:53:02 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 2892
 by: John Walliker - Tue, 24 May 2022 12:53 UTC

On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 09:08:21 UTC+1, whit3rd wrote:
> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 3:29:10 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> > On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:06:00 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 10:19:30 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> > >
> > >> I want an LED blinker to show that a high-voltage power supply is
> > >> still dangerous. It should discharge the supply at some low current
> > >> and blink from, say, 1400 volts down to maybe 40.
> > >
> > >So, a series string of fifteen current-limit diodes running a capacitor-
> > >diac-LED blinkielight? S-272 seems suitable
> > >
> > ><https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/362/P22-23-CRD-1729293.pdf>
> > The Supertex LND150 is a 500 volt depletion fet. A source resistor
> > will program the current, and they can apparently be strung in series
> > without problems.
> Yeah, and a 'current-limit diode' is also a depletion FET. With a zener
> limit specified (I'm not sure about LND150). Multiples only share
> the voltage with such a matching zener specification.
>
> A resistor would work, too, but the alarm blinkie would change frequency
> dramatically.

Does anyone actually sell surface mount LND150s at the moment? All
the usual suppliers seem to be out of stock for at least several months.

John

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<q6pp8h5gfsmj3uuvqjov52pii2ginknfun@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97597&group=sci.electronics.design#97597

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 09:05:19 -0500
From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 07:05:19 -0700
Message-ID: <q6pp8h5gfsmj3uuvqjov52pii2ginknfun@4ax.com>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com> <t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com> <t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me> <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com> <10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com> <qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com> <fb3851e3-cb41-4850-a38e-a66ab8e9ce0cn@googlegroups.com> <2797a3ac-fc3b-44d3-8ec6-ffeb62310b88n@googlegroups.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.1/32.783
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 49
X-Trace: sv3-aLFsQkm0JEkm2yesBDGFd9nD8pH9YwpwyzufdiRQ35RLbLbErKIo4PqI95pwMAtnotGYs2FJi4VuHjP!mFMTXql+pb3mq66qG7NDzIxKDWczy7dwsrqpkvbC3oA1aJ+nnTMB2cu/3DtkoKzNTyey0XRV2I89!vRDELQ==
X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3285
 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Tue, 24 May 2022 14:05 UTC

On Tue, 24 May 2022 05:53:02 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
<jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 09:08:21 UTC+1, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 3:29:10 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>> > On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:06:00 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 10:19:30 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> I want an LED blinker to show that a high-voltage power supply is
>> > >> still dangerous. It should discharge the supply at some low current
>> > >> and blink from, say, 1400 volts down to maybe 40.
>> > >
>> > >So, a series string of fifteen current-limit diodes running a capacitor-
>> > >diac-LED blinkielight? S-272 seems suitable
>> > >
>> > ><https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/362/P22-23-CRD-1729293.pdf>
>> > The Supertex LND150 is a 500 volt depletion fet. A source resistor
>> > will program the current, and they can apparently be strung in series
>> > without problems.
>> Yeah, and a 'current-limit diode' is also a depletion FET. With a zener
>> limit specified (I'm not sure about LND150). Multiples only share
>> the voltage with such a matching zener specification.
>>
>> A resistor would work, too, but the alarm blinkie would change frequency
>> dramatically.
>
>Does anyone actually sell surface mount LND150s at the moment? All
>the usual suppliers seem to be out of stock for at least several months.
>
>John

Mouser has LND250s, basically the same part.

A current sink is a great way to discharge a power supply. No long
exponential tail.

In series with an LED, brigntness is constant until it hits bottom and
winks out. My HV blinker would be similar, constant blink rate all the
way down.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<bdd37e17-f0b4-9e0e-fb44-30ef1d2099e8@electrooptical.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97599&group=sci.electronics.design#97599

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 10:08:29 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <bdd37e17-f0b4-9e0e-fb44-30ef1d2099e8@electrooptical.net>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me> <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>
<10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com>
<qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="ef0b1477615d749dde3bab4f703c0b2a";
logging-data="15792"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/OfBMKdptW6Sd3n/hx8ggh"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:r8b8+Qx8TjY9G2dj8EwQ72+PL2c=
In-Reply-To: <qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
 by: Phil Hobbs - Tue, 24 May 2022 14:08 UTC

John Larkin wrote:
> On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:06:00 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 10:19:30 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>> I want an LED blinker to show that a high-voltage power supply is
>>> still dangerous. It should discharge the supply at some low current
>>> and blink from, say, 1400 volts down to maybe 40.
>>
>> So, a series string of fifteen current-limit diodes running a capacitor-
>> diac-LED blinkielight? S-272 seems suitable
>>
>> <https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/362/P22-23-CRD-1729293.pdf>
>
> The Supertex LND150 is a 500 volt depletion fet. A source resistor
> will program the current, and they can apparently be strung in series
> without problems.
>
> Three of them would do. They are around 30 cents each.
>
> A spin on Piglet's circuit might to the blinker.
>

I'd probably be happier with a gate bias string to force the voltages to
equalize. Of course the resistors would have to be physically quite
large to take the voltage.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<dec803a0-f309-4c13-bbc6-784c007398fdn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97600&group=sci.electronics.design#97600

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1007:b0:2f3:ce52:25cb with SMTP id d7-20020a05622a100700b002f3ce5225cbmr20203218qte.575.1653402320879;
Tue, 24 May 2022 07:25:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a81:2143:0:b0:2fb:1274:247e with SMTP id
h64-20020a812143000000b002fb1274247emr28326113ywh.384.1653402320701; Tue, 24
May 2022 07:25:20 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!feed1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer01.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 07:25:20 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <q6pp8h5gfsmj3uuvqjov52pii2ginknfun@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:8b0:fb4e:0:8286:f2ff:fe6b:6c87;
posting-account=de11ZAoAAACBQRb2jWnaIkHYK2q9mRvs
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:8b0:fb4e:0:8286:f2ff:fe6b:6c87
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me> <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>
<10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com> <qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
<fb3851e3-cb41-4850-a38e-a66ab8e9ce0cn@googlegroups.com> <2797a3ac-fc3b-44d3-8ec6-ffeb62310b88n@googlegroups.com>
<q6pp8h5gfsmj3uuvqjov52pii2ginknfun@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <dec803a0-f309-4c13-bbc6-784c007398fdn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
From: jrwalli...@gmail.com (John Walliker)
Injection-Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 14:25:20 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Received-Bytes: 2017
 by: John Walliker - Tue, 24 May 2022 14:25 UTC

On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 15:05:31 UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2022 05:53:02 -0700 (PDT), John Walliker
> >Does anyone actually sell surface mount LND150s at the moment? All
> >the usual suppliers seem to be out of stock for at least several months.
> >
> >John
> Mouser has LND250s, basically the same part.

Thank you - John

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<b36db536-c850-7990-cdd9-9fb2a902b7b3@electrooptical.net>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97602&group=sci.electronics.design#97602

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 10:43:08 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <b36db536-c850-7990-cdd9-9fb2a902b7b3@electrooptical.net>
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl>
<0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me> <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>
<10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com>
<qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
<fb3851e3-cb41-4850-a38e-a66ab8e9ce0cn@googlegroups.com>
<2797a3ac-fc3b-44d3-8ec6-ffeb62310b88n@googlegroups.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="ef0b1477615d749dde3bab4f703c0b2a";
logging-data="32710"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18mpnH2buxU5lWp3tyJTcGz"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/78.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:c5OwDXCvT7+5XY5w1qB+K3vqjtg=
In-Reply-To: <2797a3ac-fc3b-44d3-8ec6-ffeb62310b88n@googlegroups.com>
 by: Phil Hobbs - Tue, 24 May 2022 14:43 UTC

John Walliker wrote:
> On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 09:08:21 UTC+1, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 3:29:10 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Mon, 23 May 2022 11:06:00 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 10:19:30 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I want an LED blinker to show that a high-voltage power supply is
>>>>> still dangerous. It should discharge the supply at some low current
>>>>> and blink from, say, 1400 volts down to maybe 40.
>>>>
>>>> So, a series string of fifteen current-limit diodes running a capacitor-
>>>> diac-LED blinkielight? S-272 seems suitable
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/362/P22-23-CRD-1729293.pdf>
>>> The Supertex LND150 is a 500 volt depletion fet. A source resistor
>>> will program the current, and they can apparently be strung in series
>>> without problems.
>> Yeah, and a 'current-limit diode' is also a depletion FET. With a zener
>> limit specified (I'm not sure about LND150). Multiples only share
>> the voltage with such a matching zener specification.
>>
>> A resistor would work, too, but the alarm blinkie would change frequency
>> dramatically.
>
> Does anyone actually sell surface mount LND150s at the moment? All
> the usual suppliers seem to be out of stock for at least several months.
>
> John
>
TO-92s are good for the soul.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(Who just designed one into a supply-dictated board spin.) :(

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels

<74d9af48-4fa0-47f7-8802-be61fec1a2c3n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97604&group=sci.electronics.design#97604

 copy link   Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:592:b0:2f9:29ff:daf5 with SMTP id c18-20020a05622a059200b002f929ffdaf5mr13251355qtb.601.1653408455391;
Tue, 24 May 2022 09:07:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a0d:ed41:0:b0:2ff:2f40:3d7b with SMTP id
w62-20020a0ded41000000b002ff2f403d7bmr29546273ywe.143.1653408455151; Tue, 24
May 2022 09:07:35 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!news.szaf.org!fu-berlin.de!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 09:07:34 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <b36db536-c850-7990-cdd9-9fb2a902b7b3@electrooptical.net>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=2001:8b0:fb4e:0:8286:f2ff:fe6b:6c87;
posting-account=de11ZAoAAACBQRb2jWnaIkHYK2q9mRvs
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:8b0:fb4e:0:8286:f2ff:fe6b:6c87
References: <t5gvsq$tatd$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <0n2o7h9e69qdlfnd2j843un2b2ffldj3t4@4ax.com>
<t5h2fl$teok$1@portraits.wsisiz.edu.pl> <t5ngpn$mke$1@reader1.panix.com>
<t5oqtt$kok$1@dont-email.me> <l3gn8hl287g93d60l9j7cvo83li7jkpruh@4ax.com>
<10c77167-de29-473d-9854-0f70d323b9f8n@googlegroups.com> <qv1o8h5iajdasbrcspup75a4o2ft8s5khi@4ax.com>
<fb3851e3-cb41-4850-a38e-a66ab8e9ce0cn@googlegroups.com> <2797a3ac-fc3b-44d3-8ec6-ffeb62310b88n@googlegroups.com>
<b36db536-c850-7990-cdd9-9fb2a902b7b3@electrooptical.net>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <74d9af48-4fa0-47f7-8802-be61fec1a2c3n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: BJT behaviour at ridiculously low current levels
From: jrwalli...@gmail.com (John Walliker)
Injection-Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 16:07:35 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: John Walliker - Tue, 24 May 2022 16:07 UTC

On Tuesday, 24 May 2022 at 15:43:20 UTC+1, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> John Walliker wrote:
> > Does anyone actually sell surface mount LND150s at the moment? All
> > the usual suppliers seem to be out of stock for at least several months.
> >
> > John
> >
> TO-92s are good for the soul.

Maybe I should create a composite SOT-23/TO-92 footprint "just in case".
John

Pages:123
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor