On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
>> >> >> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
>> >> >
>> >> > It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
>> >> It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.
>> >
>> > You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
>> I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.
>
> I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?

Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

>> > I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
>> You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.
>
> LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by

https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328

> aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.

If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.

>> > As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
>> Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.
>>
>> Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.
>
> Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!

Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.

> What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.

Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
> >> >> >> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
> >> >> It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.
> >> >
> >> > You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
> >> I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.
> >
> > I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
> Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.

> >> > I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
> >> You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.
> >
> > LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
> https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
> > aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
> If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.

You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there's no reason to cool further.

> >> > As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
> >> Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.
> >>
> >> Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.
> >
> > Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
> Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
> > What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
> Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

As I expected. No point at all. You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can overclock them.

--

Rick C.

+--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

John Larkin wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 20:24:51 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:14:38 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>>>>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>>>>>>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>>>>>>>>>> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a huge air blast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So they'd be almost destroyed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
>>>>>>>>> dimensions. You know, numbers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Post a picture and we can discuss it.
>>>>>> It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.
>>>>>
>>>>> A picture is worth 1,000 words.
>>>>
>>>> Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
>>>> https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg
>>>
>>> Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?
>>
>> I never connected mine, and it seems to be ok. I guess it could be an indicator the fans are operating.
>
> Gamer PCs and keyboards are always funny. I remember when cars had
> tail fins and jeans had bell bottoms.

1957 Chevys are awesome.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 22:29:21 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
>> Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> > Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
>> > and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
>> > it just to make it look pretty?
>> Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
>> with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:
>>
>> https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
>> https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png
>>
>> The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
>> cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
>> aesthetic aspects.
>> Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
>> aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
>
> I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

If only computers were still desktops and not towers.... Who thought it would be a good idea to have stuff hanging off things?

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 23:28:06 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 5:41:29 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
>> > On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
>> > > Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> > >
>> > > <snip>
>> > > > Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
>> > > > and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
>> > > > it just to make it look pretty?
>> > > Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
>> > > with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:
>> > >
>> > > https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
>> > > https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png
>> > >
>> > > The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
>> > > cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
>> > > aesthetic aspects.
>> > > Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
>> > > aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
>> > I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.
>> >
>> https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs
>>
>> but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper
>
> I would be interesting to be able to take measurements of the temperature profile across a fin in a heatsink. You can do finite element analysis once you make your assumptions, but to get past the unknowns, measurements would be useful. I suppose all that really matters is the base temperature given an air source and air temperature. That delta T is all that is really important. But knowing the temperature distribution on the fin could help design better fins, perhaps. With the pressed in fins, it could be practical to alter the width of the fin from top to bottom. But I suppose there's not much point really. Just make the fins fat enough to carry as much heat as needed. I wonder if they have an equation for fin width/spacing vs. the number of fins, to identify the optimum?

Use an IR thermometer to test one of your own.

> Or just go with water cooling. I've always liked that idea. I was going to build a water cooling system from scratch for a desktop. I ended up with a laptop before I got it ready for test. They already use heat pipes. It's hard to beat that. They have really tiny radiators with very, very thin fins, but lots of them. I wonder how they get any air to flow through them??? It must be magic.

Best watercooler has no fans on the radiator, or the radiator is in another room.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 05:29:20 +0100, Don <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

> Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>> onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
>>> On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
>>> > Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> >
>>> > <snip>
>>> > > Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
>>> > > and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
>>> > > it just to make it look pretty?
>>> > Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
>>> > with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:
>>> >
>>> > https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
>>> > https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png
>>> >
>>> > The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
>>> > cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
>>> > aesthetic aspects.
>>> > Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
>>> > aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
>>> I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's
>>> freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight
>>> onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great
>>> for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be
>>> so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it
>>> to the air.
>>>
>> https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs
>>
>> but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there
>> is probably not much benefit from expensive copper
>
> Here's a solid copper server cooler shown next to a light-weight desktop
> bi-metallic:
>
> https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/serverdesktop.png
>
> The copper cooler weighs 989 g versus 256 g for the bi-metallic. The
> metal standoffs of the heavier cooler are designed to pass through over-
> sized motherboard holes and bolt directly to a server chassis. The
> lighter aluminum cooler uses plastic standoffs to secure itself directly
> to a desktop motherboard instead.
> Both copper and aluminum fins feel firm to the touch.

The one on the right is shit, it lets my i5-8600K reach 100C and thermally throttle if I use all 6 cores and the onboard GPU to the max.

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 1:16:14 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 23:28:06 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 5:41:29 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
> >> onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
> >> > On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
> >> > > Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > <snip>
> >> > > > Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
> >> > > > and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
> >> > > > it just to make it look pretty?
> >> > > Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
> >> > > with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:
> >> > >
> >> > > https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
> >> > > https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png
> >> > >
> >> > > The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
> >> > > cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
> >> > > aesthetic aspects.
> >> > > Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
> >> > > aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
> >> > I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.
> >> >
> >> https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs
> >>
> >> but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper
> >
> > I would be interesting to be able to take measurements of the temperature profile across a fin in a heatsink. You can do finite element analysis once you make your assumptions, but to get past the unknowns, measurements would be useful. I suppose all that really matters is the base temperature given an air source and air temperature. That delta T is all that is really important. But knowing the temperature distribution on the fin could help design better fins, perhaps. With the pressed in fins, it could be practical to alter the width of the fin from top to bottom. But I suppose there's not much point really. Just make the fins fat enough to carry as much heat as needed. I wonder if they have an equation for fin width/spacing vs. the number of fins, to identify the optimum?
>
> Use an IR thermometer to test one of your own.

Sometimes you just have no fucking clue! Well, for a wide range of "sometimes".

--

Rick C.

+--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 05:22:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 1:16:14 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 23:28:06 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 5:41:29 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
>> >> onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
>> >> > On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
>> >> > > Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > <snip>
>> >> > > > Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
>> >> > > > and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
>> >> > > > it just to make it look pretty?
>> >> > > Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
>> >> > > with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
>> >> > > https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png
>> >> > >
>> >> > > The coolers shown above are intended for use in a "beige box." The
>> >> > > cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
>> >> > > aesthetic aspects.
>> >> > > Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
>> >> > > aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
>> >> > I don't think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it's freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don't need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.
>> >> >
>> >> https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs
>> >>
>> >> but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper
>> >
>> > I would be interesting to be able to take measurements of the temperature profile across a fin in a heatsink. You can do finite element analysis once you make your assumptions, but to get past the unknowns, measurements would be useful. I suppose all that really matters is the base temperature given an air source and air temperature. That delta T is all that is really important. But knowing the temperature distribution on the fin could help design better fins, perhaps. With the pressed in fins, it could be practical to alter the width of the fin from top to bottom. But I suppose there's not much point really. Just make the fins fat enough to carry as much heat as needed. I wonder if they have an equation for fin width/spacing vs. the number of fins, to identify the optimum?
>>
>> Use an IR thermometer to test one of your own.
>
> Sometimes you just have no fucking clue! Well, for a wide range of "sometimes".

If you're going to disagree with me, to prevent yourself from looking like a wanker, explain why you believe I'm wrong. I have such a thermometer and can very quickly tell the temperature of every part of a heatsink. Having 96 CPU cores and 8 GPUs, I tend to analyze temperatures a lot.

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
>> >> >> >> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
>> >> >> It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.
>> >> >
>> >> > You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU.. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
>> >> I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.
>> >
>> > I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
>> Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.
>
> Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.

And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn't change this.

>> >> > I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever.. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
>> >> You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.
>> >
>> > LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
>> https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
>> > aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
>> If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.
>
> You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there's no reason to cool further.

I've never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

>> >> > As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
>> >> Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.
>> >>
>> >> Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.
>> >
>> > Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
>> Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
>> > What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
>> Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?
>
> As I expected. No point at all.

That's a yes then. Do you have specs?

> You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can overclock them.

Then they are fools.

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
> >> >> >> >> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
> >> >> >> It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
> >> >> I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.
> >> >
> >> > I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
> >> Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.
> >
> > Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
> And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn't change this.

It's not a bottleneck. It's a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances. You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere. So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same. There's no reason to think that. Moving the bulk of the heat sink off the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.

I know you aren't going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.

> >> >> > I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
> >> >> You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.
> >> >
> >> > LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
> >> https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
> >> > aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
> >> If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.
> >
> > You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there's no reason to cool further.
> I've never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;

> >> >> > As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
> >> >> Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.
> >> >>
> >> >> Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.
> >> >
> >> > Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
> >> Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
> >> > What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
> >> Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?
> >
> > As I expected. No point at all.
> That's a yes then. Do you have specs?

LOL

> > You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can overclock them.
> Then they are fools.

Yes, anyone who does things you don't, is a fool. That cuts both ways.

--

Rick C.

+-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:12:40 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 20:24:51 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:14:38 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>> <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>>>> > <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, "Commander Kinsey"
>>>>>> >>> <C...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
>>>>>> >>>>>> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I thought they were extruded, but no!
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Like carving a turkey dinner
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Those long skinny fins don't look efficient to me. And they would need
>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a huge air blast.
>>>>>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.
>>>>>> >>>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>>> That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.
>>>>>> >>>>>
>>>>>> >>>>> I don't think so, those fins are almost paper thin.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> So they'd be almost destroyed.
>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>> There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
>>>>>> >>> dimensions. You know, numbers.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Post a picture and we can discuss it.
>>>>>> It's not complicated enough to need a picture. It's a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.
>>>>>
>>>>> A picture is worth 1,000 words.
>>>>
>>>> Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here's a little picture for you....
>>>> https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg
>>>
>>> Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?
>>
>> I never connected mine, and it seems to be ok. I guess it could be an indicator the fans are operating.
>
> Gamer PCs and keyboards are always funny. I remember when cars had
> tail fins

Probably removed by the health and softy committee in case you reverse at high speed in to a pedestrian.

Donald Trump's car drifting in reverse very fast: https://youtu.be/6elLDemrDls

I was once told by the police I had to get my car reg number replaced because it was loose, so it could fly off, spin round, and chop somebody's head off. His reasoning? He'd seen it in the film Blade Runner 2. Telling him that was fictional got him very angry indeed. But then he did have beard.

On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:26:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
>> >> >> >> >> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
>> >> >> >> It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
>> >> >> I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
>> >> Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.
>> >
>> > Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
>> And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn't change this.
>
> It's not a bottleneck. It's a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances.

I know very well what it is, I have a fucking physics degree. But bottleneck is a reasonable colloquial term for anything which is the main cause of a reduction in something. Think of traffic flowing along a highway then through a one lane roadworks, that's a bottleneck. It's also a resistance.

> You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere.

Basic physics tells us it is. Air doesn't conduct like solid.

> So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same. There's no reason to think that.. Moving the bulk of the heat sink off the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.

You're adding more resistance, metal to water than back to metal again.

> I know you aren't going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.

Anybody who uses the term "in denial" is probably one those greenies who thinks logical people are denying their hippy warming movement.

>> >> >> > I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
>> >> >> You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.
>> >> >
>> >> > LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
>> >> https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
>> >> > aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
>> >> If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.
>> >
>> > You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there's no reason to cool further.
>> I've never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.
>
> Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;

WTF? I'm pointing out air cooling keeps it well below the max.

>> >> >> > As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
>> >> >> Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.
>> >> >
>> >> > Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
>> >> Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
>> >> > What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
>> >> Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?
>> >
>> > As I expected. No point at all.
>> That's a yes then. Do you have specs?
>
> LOL

That's also a yes. Electronic analysis of this thread determines this has a 76% chance of being you:
https://st2.depositphotos.com/1026266/10481/i/450/depositphotos_104819176-stock-photo-computer-geek-typing-on-keyboard.jpg
Poor eyesight, unable to shave, no muscles, not worthy of anything.

>> > You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I'm starting to think you actually are unable. I don't get why you can't understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can overclock them.
>> Then they are fools.
>
> Yes, anyone who does things you don't, is a fool. That cuts both ways..

No it doesn't. You can't just put in cliches and make them apply to me.

There's a reason your 4GHz CPU isn't sold at 4.4GHz. Because it's not reliable at that speed.

On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 5:13:56 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:26:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
> >> >> >> >> >> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling.. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
> >> >> >> >> It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
> >> >> >> I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
> >> >> Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.
> >> >
> >> > Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
> >> And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn't change this.
> >
> > It's not a bottleneck. It's a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances.
> I know very well what it is, I have a fucking physics degree. But bottleneck is a reasonable colloquial term for anything which is the main cause of a reduction in something. Think of traffic flowing along a highway then through a one lane roadworks, that's a bottleneck. It's also a resistance.

If you have a physics degree, you would understand the differences between traffic and electrical resistance. So clearly I have caught you in a lie.

I don't need a poor analogy, because I understand resistance. Why not just work with thermal resistance, rather than talking in analogies that you clearly don't understand.

> > You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere.
> Basic physics tells us it is. Air doesn't conduct like solid.

Lol! So that's physicist talk, "Air doesn't conduct like a solid"? The air in this situation doesn't need to conduct heat. It accepts heat from contact with the heat sink fins, and the movement of the air transports that heat away. Conduction has little to do with it other than possibly the very thin layer at the air-metal surface where it does conduct just like any other material.

> > So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same. There's no reason to think that. Moving the bulk of the heat sink off the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.
> You're adding more resistance, metal to water than back to metal again.

Again, you can't understand that the remainder of the system does not need to be the same. You can't look at one portion of the system and talk about the entire system. You want desperately for the two systems to be otherwise identical, but there is no reason to believe that.

> > I know you aren't going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.
> Anybody who uses the term "in denial" is probably one those greenies who thinks logical people are denying their hippy warming movement.

Or they are discussing something with someone who is in denial.

> >> >> >> > I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
> >> >> >> You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
> >> >> https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
> >> >> > aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
> >> >> If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.
> >> >
> >> > You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there's no reason to cool further.
> >> I've never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.
> >
> > Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;
> WTF? I'm pointing out air cooling keeps it well below the max.

Which is an irrelevant point. People buy water cooling to get as low a CPU temperature as possible, so they can overclock as high a speed as they can get. It's like any other pursuit where the the goal is to optimize something, far beyond what is useful. It's a hobby.

> >> >> >> > As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
> >> >> >> Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
> >> >> Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
> >> >> > What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
> >> >> Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?
> >> >
> >> > As I expected. No point at all.
> >> That's a yes then. Do you have specs?
> >
> > LOL
> That's also a yes. Electronic analysis of this thread determines this has a 76% chance of being you:
> https://st2.depositphotos.com/1026266/10481/i/450/depositphotos_104819176-stock-photo-computer-geek-typing-on-keyboard.jpg
> Poor eyesight, unable to shave, no muscles, not worthy of anything.

You are right about the eyesight. Not so right about the muscles, etc. I was captain of the wrestling team and have been very successful in life. You, meanwhile, are reduced to the pathetic presence you project in this group, completely unable to have a meaningful discussion, largely devoid of friends.

On Thu, 05 May 2022 15:19:18 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> ----a reply to my post after you claimed you weren't going to reply again, after I made a Jewish comment. So you're a liar. Or your killfile broke.

On Thu, 05 May 2022 15:19:18 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 5:13:56 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:26:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> > What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
>> >> >> >> >> >> Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
>> >> >> >> >> It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another "resistance" in the heat movement.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > You can't mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn't say "can't", but it's not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
>> >> >> >> I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That's no less than on water coolers for CPUs.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I don't care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can't you understand that?
>> >> >> Because you're wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.
>> >> >
>> >> > Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That's what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
>> >> And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn't change this.
>> >
>> > It's not a bottleneck. It's a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances.
>> I know very well what it is, I have a fucking physics degree. But bottleneck is a reasonable colloquial term for anything which is the main cause of a reduction in something. Think of traffic flowing along a highway then through a one lane roadworks, that's a bottleneck. It's also a resistance.
>
> If you have a physics degree, you would understand the differences between traffic and electrical resistance.

Sorry, it's too complicated for you. Imagine lots of cars going through a small road.

> So clearly I have caught you in a lie.

And what lie is this?

> I don't need a poor analogy, because I understand resistance. Why not just work with thermal resistance, rather than talking in analogies that you clearly don't understand.

To make it simpler for you.

>> > You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere.
>> Basic physics tells us it is. Air doesn't conduct like solid.
>
> Lol! So that's physicist talk, "Air doesn't conduct like a solid"?

Yip.

> The air in this situation doesn't need to conduct heat. It accepts heat from contact with the heat sink fins,

By conduction. what do you think happens at the interface?

>> > So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same. There's no reason to think that. Moving the bulk of the heat sink off the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.
>> You're adding more resistance, metal to water than back to metal again.
>
> Again, you can't understand that the remainder of the system does not need to be the same. You can't look at one portion of the system and talk about the entire system. You want desperately for the two systems to be otherwise identical, but there is no reason to believe that.

Stop waffling and get to the point.

>> > I know you aren't going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.
>> Anybody who uses the term "in denial" is probably one those greenies who thinks logical people are denying their hippy warming movement.
>
> Or they are discussing something with someone who is in denial.

No such thing, it's just believers that can't handle people who don't. Mainly religion, or some other "religion" like climate change.

>> >> >> >> > I'm sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
>> >> >> >> You don't need a lower temperature. They're rated up to about 90C.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
>> >> >> https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
>> >> >> > aftermarket CPU cooling. So there's literally no point in this discussion.
>> >> >> If they're not doing it to lower the temperature, they're not right in the head.
>> >> >
>> >> > You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there's no reason to cool further.
>> >> I've never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.
>> >
>> > Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;
>> WTF? I'm pointing out air cooling keeps it well below the max.
>
> Which is an irrelevant point. People buy water cooling to get as low a CPU temperature as possible, so they can overclock as high a speed as they can get. It's like any other pursuit where the the goal is to optimize something, far beyond what is useful. It's a hobby.

If it could run faster, it would be sold as such. Do they really think the manufacturer doesn't know what they're doing?

>> >> >> >> > As I've pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don't even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
>> >> >> >> Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
>> >> >> Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
>> >> >> > What a tool. Like the other discussion, there's no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
>> >> >> Saying that after you've responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?
>> >> >
>> >> > As I expected. No point at all.
>> >> That's a yes then. Do you have specs?
>> >
>> > LOL
>> That's also a yes. Electronic analysis of this thread determines this has a 76% chance of being you:
>> https://st2.depositphotos.com/1026266/10481/i/450/depositphotos_104819176-stock-photo-computer-geek-typing-on-keyboard.jpg
>> Poor eyesight, unable to shave, no muscles, not worthy of anything.
>
> You are right about the eyesight. Not so right about the muscles, etc.. I was captain of the wrestling team and have been very successful in life.

"CoLamer Trumpsey" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in
news:op.1l23hne3mvhs6z@ryzen.lan:

>> Which is an irrelevant point. People buy water cooling to get as
>> low
> a CPU temperature as possible, so they can overclock as high a
> speed as they can get. It's like any other pursuit where the the
> goal is to optimize something, far beyond what is useful. It's a
> hobby.
>
> If it could run faster, it would be sold as such. Do they really
> think the manufacturer doesn't know what they're doing?
>

You're a goddamned idiot with no clue what CPU makers intend.

They are sold to last years at a given run rate. Overclockers pull
down temps so they can increase that run speed and it has been that
way since the 486.

We really know what manufacturers are doing, and you decidedly do
not. You are an abject idiot with zero physics acumen, and zero
industry knowledge. Are you related to the Trump family of idiots?
You sure as fuk act like someone as stupid as they are.

You are most likely only able to command your sphincter.

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 1:17:36 AM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
> "CoLamer Trumpsey" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:op.1l23h...@ryzen.lan:
> >> Which is an irrelevant point. People buy water cooling to get as
> >> low
> > a CPU temperature as possible, so they can overclock as high a
> > speed as they can get. It's like any other pursuit where the the
> > goal is to optimize something, far beyond what is useful. It's a
> > hobby.
> >
> > If it could run faster, it would be sold as such. Do they really
> > think the manufacturer doesn't know what they're doing?
> >
> You're a goddamned idiot with no clue what CPU makers intend.

Can't argue with you there. They guy is like a few others here, no interest at all in learning anything as he already knows everything.

> They are sold to last years at a given run rate. Overclockers pull
> down temps so they can increase that run speed and it has been that
> way since the 486.

He literally doesn't understand the concept, plus, he's always afraid to admit he might be wrong and have something to learn. It would be such a blow to his world model with him at the center.

Whatever. There's no point in responding to a number of posters here. I wish GG had a kill file.

--

Rick C.

++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 15:35:04 UTC+1, Ricky wrote:
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 1:17:36 AM UTC-4, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

> > They are sold to last years at a given run rate. Overclockers pull
> > down temps so they can increase that run speed and it has been that
> > way since the 486.

Sometimes a cpu family turns out to have higher performance than is appropriate for its
position in the marketing hierarchy. That is probably what leads to clock speeds
being locked as the manufacturers don't want to cannibalise the market for their
more expensive "higher performance" products.
John

Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
news:c2b88063-9360-45b3-9955-f73c7c4cf820n@googlegroups.com:

> He literally doesn't understand the concept, plus, he's always
> afraid to admit he might be wrong and have something to learn. It
> would be such a blow to his world model with him at the center.
>
> Whatever. There's no point in responding to a number of posters
> here. I wish GG had a kill file.
>
> --
>
> Rick C.

The whole reason for downscaling is power reducetion and heay loss
reducetion. These finfet etc designs conduct better as well, so all
function improves, which should be a boon for OC folks.

I remember my first AMD machine that fried the CPU and MOBO
instantly from a less than interfaced heat sink.

Then my second was a dual CPU design which was all I would own until
now when they are multi core monsters. But even it had far better
thermal management. ALL of my Intel i series builds never had a
thermal problem. I am currently on a 12 core Xeon with a Quadro
graphics card screaming out 3D designs and renderings like cake.
Little bitty dust plugged fans still kep it cool, even those it
exibits a bit of heat depending on what I do with it. I have to blow
it out again soon. I don't use the little cans, I have a compressor
tank. I use it on my laser engraver to blow the dust away as it
'burns' a surface. I am really impresed with the quality of
walmart's cheap tool line. I have an orbital sander that has dust
collection and a bag built in and a dust cap on the power switch...
really nice design, and it was $15 !!! No way! Back in the
seventies an orbital cost you way more and those were way harder to
get dollars then too. Amazing how electronic and electrical devices
are about the only thing that still keeps the dream... better and
better, and cheaper and cheaper (less pricey)life gets easier and the
world never notices if they get raised around devices. They are
oblivious to the path that got us here.

You should see the technology in hospitals and even dental labs
now... amazing stuff. As we croak, they'll have robots doing
everything as they become fat body recliner potatoes like in
that movie WALL-E. And the 'leaders' of the world go 'round nuking
each other.

I wonder if after today they are going to update the doomsday clock
again. Jan 20 put it at 100 seconds to midnight.

Sadly I think we are a lot closer than that.