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tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: Tesla is fast

SubjectAuthor
* Tesla is fastRichD
+* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
|+* Re: Tesla is fastLasse Langwadt Christensen
||+* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
|||+* Re: Tesla is fastLasse Langwadt Christensen
||||+- Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||+- Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||+* Re: Tesla is fastClifford Heath
|||||`- Re: Tesla is fastLasse Langwadt Christensen
||||`* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
|||| `* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  +* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |+* Re: Tesla is fastLasse Langwadt Christensen
||||  ||+- Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  ||`* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  || `* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  ||  `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  ||   `* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
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||||  ||            +- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  ||            `- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |`* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  | +- Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  | `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |  `* Re: Tesla is fastwhit3rd
||||  |   +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |   |`- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
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||||  |    `* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |     `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      +* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
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||||  |      |  `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |   `* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  |      |    `* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  |      |     `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      |`* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
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||||  |      |      | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastrbowman
||||  |      |      | | | | +- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | | | |`- Re: Tesla is fastEdward Hernandez
||||  |      |      | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastrbowman
||||  |      |      | | | | |+* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | | | ||`- Re: Tesla is fastEdward Hernandez
||||  |      |      | | | | |+* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |      |      | | | | ||`- Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastrbowman
||||  |      |      | | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |      |      | | | | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | | | | | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |+- Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
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||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |     +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
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||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |     `* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
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||||  |      |      | | | | | | | | `* Re: Tesla is fastJasen Betts
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |  +- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
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||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |  |`* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
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||||  |      |      | | | | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | +- Re: Tesla is fastFlyguy
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||||  |      |      | | | | | | +- Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  |      |      | | | | | | `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | | `- Re: Tesla is fastFlyguy
||||  |      |      | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
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||||  |      |      | | | `* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | `* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | `* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      +* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  |      |      +* Re: Tesla is fastFlyguy
||||  |      |      +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      +- Re: Tesla is fastRichD
||||  |      |      `* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |      `* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  +* Re: Tesla is fastClifford Heath
||||  `- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
|||+* Re: Tesla is fastCydrome Leader
|||`- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||+* Re: Tesla is fastamdx
||`- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
|+* Re: Tesla is fastDecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
|+- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
|+* Re: Tesla is fastRichD
|`- Re: Tesla is fastRichD
+* Re: Tesla is fastCydrome Leader
+* Re: Tesla is fastjlarkin
+* Re: Tesla is fastDecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
+* Re: Tesla is fastbitrex
+* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
+* Re: Tesla is fastjlarkin
`* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Larkin

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Re: Tesla is fast

<t5trc6$p9t$6@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96985&group=sci.electronics.design#96985

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From: always.l...@message.header (John Doe)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 15:41:58 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: John Doe - Mon, 16 May 2022 15:41 UTC

Ricky wrote:

> rbowman wrote:
>> Anthony William Sloman wrote:

>>> How may miles have you put on it? If you had only bought it because
>>> you had a very small penis, it might not have done very many at all.
>>
>> You seem to have quite the interest in penises.

He's interested in YOUR penis.

>> About 250,000 miles since you asked. It's been to all four corners of
>> the continental US and a hell of a lot of places in between.
>
> All of which is irrelevant. 250,000 miles is nothing unique. Both of
> my pickups got around that. One was in an accident and the other
> stolen. You are driving around 7,000 miles a year, half the national
> average. You may qualify for a discount on your insurance for low
> mileage.

At first glance... Looks like the expectation is "up to 200,000 miles" for
modern gas-powered cars. That's "much longer than those produced even a
few decades ago".

https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a32758625/how-many-miles-does-a-car-last/

Re: Tesla is fast

<77ea9e3f-3da6-4a54-87c6-42de4c9152f5n@googlegroups.com>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=96990&group=sci.electronics.design#96990

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: kei...@kjwdesigns.com (ke...@kjwdesigns.com)
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 by: ke...@kjwdesigns.com - Mon, 16 May 2022 17:58 UTC

On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 22:25:13 UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
> On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kwdes...com wrote:
> >
> My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a battery is
> going to last 36 years?

Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don't last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years.

Accident damage or some major failure (such as engine!) often results in a costly repair that causes it to be scrapped.

My last BMW was a great car until it was about 8 years old when failures started to become annoying and expensive.

kw

Re: Tesla is fast

<2c517bc7-9143-4d7c-abce-0c30522119aen@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Ricky)
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 by: Ricky - Mon, 16 May 2022 19:01 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 1:58:35 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 22:25:13 UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
> > On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kwdes...com wrote:
> > >
> > My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a battery is
> > going to last 36 years?
> Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don't last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years..
>
> Accident damage or some major failure (such as engine!) often results in a costly repair that causes it to be scrapped.
>
> My last BMW was a great car until it was about 8 years old when failures started to become annoying and expensive.

I've seen the 15 year number many places. However, we buy enough new cars to replace the fleet in 15 years. So how can we still be driving half of what was sold in the last 15 years? The number of cars on the road is not increasing 50% every 15 years is it?

Where did you get the 15 year number?

--

Rick C.

-+-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: kei...@kjwdesigns.com (ke...@kjwdesigns.com)
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 by: ke...@kjwdesigns.com - Mon, 16 May 2022 20:18 UTC

On Monday, 16 May 2022 at 12:01:53 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 1:58:35 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 22:25:13 UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
> > > On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kwdes...com wrote:
> > > >
> > > My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a battery is
> > > going to last 36 years?
> > Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don't last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years.
> >
> > Accident damage or some major failure (such as engine!) often results in a costly repair that causes it to be scrapped.
> >
> > My last BMW was a great car until it was about 8 years old when failures started to become annoying and expensive.
> I've seen the 15 year number many places. However, we buy enough new cars to replace the fleet in 15 years. So how can we still be driving half of what was sold in the last 15 years? The number of cars on the road is not increasing 50% every 15 years is it?
>
> Where did you get the 15 year number?
>

https://berla.co/average-us-vehicle-lifespan/

kw

Re: Tesla is fast

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From: bow...@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 20:50:29 -0600
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 by: rbowman - Tue, 17 May 2022 02:50 UTC

On 05/16/2022 08:30 AM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 11:54:13 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
>> On 05/16/2022 12:24 AM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
>>> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 3:25:13 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 00:04:22 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>> Then there is the issue that you are only talking about purchase price, not the life cycle cost. That's the talk of an ignoramus.
>>>>>> If you want to go that route, electric cars have that annoying habit of needing a new battery.
>>>>>
>>>>> No they don't - no more than conventional cars need new engines.
>>>>
>>>> My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a battery is going to last 36 years?
>>>
>>> How may miles have you put on it? If you had only bought it because you had a very small penis, it might not have done very many at all.
>>>
>> You seem to have quite the interest in penises.
>
> Scarcely. It's a trite and cliched reaction to any ostentatiously bulky vehicle.
>
>> About 250,000 miles since you asked. It's been to all four corners of the continental US and a hell of a lot of places in between.
>
> Why did you need an ostentatiously bulky vehicle to do that?
>

http://americanclassicscars.com/uploads/pictures/ford-f-150-4x4-low-miles-100646-wcamper-shell-4.jpg

Because for much of the time I was living in it. I don't think a Smart
Car would have worked. Or perhaps I like being ostentatious. If so, the
F150 at 3750# curb weight wasn't the proper choice. My Lincoln was about
5100#

But you still haven't addressed the basic issue, troll. My 36 year old
vehicle doesn't need a new engine. I wonder how many 36 year old Teslas
there will be outside of museums?

Now run along in your Kia Cerato...

Re: Tesla is fast

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From: bow...@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 20:55:22 -0600
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 by: rbowman - Tue, 17 May 2022 02:55 UTC

On 05/16/2022 11:58 AM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 22:25:13 UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
>> On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kwdes...com wrote:
>>>
>> My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a battery is
>> going to last 36 years?
>
> Probably not - but the great majority of conventional vehicles don't last that long either. The average lifetime of cars in the US is about 15 years.
>
> Accident damage or some major failure (such as engine!) often results in a costly repair that causes it to be scrapped.
>
> My last BMW was a great car until it was about 8 years old when failures started to become annoying and expensive.
>
> kw
>

My Audi became annoying long before that. Admittedly it was a 100LS and
Volkswagen hadn't figured out front engine, front wheel drive, water
cooled vehicles yet.

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Ricky)
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 by: Ricky - Tue, 17 May 2022 03:53 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:50:38 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
> On 05/16/2022 08:30 AM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 11:54:13 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
> >> On 05/16/2022 12:24 AM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> >>> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 3:25:13 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
> >>>> On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 00:04:22 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >>>>> ...
> >>>>>>> Then there is the issue that you are only talking about purchase price, not the life cycle cost. That's the talk of an ignoramus.
> >>>>>> If you want to go that route, electric cars have that annoying habit of needing a new battery.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No they don't - no more than conventional cars need new engines.
> >>>>
> >>>> My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a battery is going to last 36 years?
> >>>
> >>> How may miles have you put on it? If you had only bought it because you had a very small penis, it might not have done very many at all.
> >>>
> >> You seem to have quite the interest in penises.
> >
> > Scarcely. It's a trite and cliched reaction to any ostentatiously bulky vehicle.
> >
> >> About 250,000 miles since you asked. It's been to all four corners of the continental US and a hell of a lot of places in between.
> >
> > Why did you need an ostentatiously bulky vehicle to do that?
> >
> http://americanclassicscars.com/uploads/pictures/ford-f-150-4x4-low-miles-100646-wcamper-shell-4.jpg
>
> Because for much of the time I was living in it. I don't think a Smart
> Car would have worked. Or perhaps I like being ostentatious. If so, the
> F150 at 3750# curb weight wasn't the proper choice. My Lincoln was about
> 5100#
>
> But you still haven't addressed the basic issue, troll. My 36 year old
> vehicle doesn't need a new engine. I wonder how many 36 year old Teslas
> there will be outside of museums?
>
> Now run along in your Kia Cerato...

Who gives a shit about your 36 year old car? You seem to be obsessed with the idea that it means something. What do you think your 36 year old car means in the transition to BEVs that is taking place in the world?

You do realize this is happening, and there's pretty much nothing you can do to stop it, right? In 10 years, virtually every car sold in the US will be a BEV. In 20 years, the vast majority of cars on the roads will be BEVs.. Gas stations will become the exception in 15 years and nearly extinct in 20 years. By 2042, if you aren't dead, you won't be driving your then, 56 year old car. You will either be driving a 20 year old ICE that you have to special order gasoline for, or you will be driving a pickup truck with a battery, very possibly made by Tesla.

This is a reality that you may not prefer, but it is your future, whether you decide to like it or not.

--

Rick C.

-++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (Flyguy)
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 by: Flyguy - Tue, 17 May 2022 05:31 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 8:53:50 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 10:50:38 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
> > On 05/16/2022 08:30 AM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 11:54:13 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
> > >> On 05/16/2022 12:24 AM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
> > >>> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 3:25:13 PM UTC+10, rbowman wrote:
> > >>>> On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> > >>>>> On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 00:04:22 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> > >>>>> ...
> > >>>>>>> Then there is the issue that you are only talking about purchase price, not the life cycle cost. That's the talk of an ignoramus.
> > >>>>>> If you want to go that route, electric cars have that annoying habit of needing a new battery.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> No they don't - no more than conventional cars need new engines.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a battery is going to last 36 years?
> > >>>
> > >>> How may miles have you put on it? If you had only bought it because you had a very small penis, it might not have done very many at all.
> > >>>
> > >> You seem to have quite the interest in penises.
> > >
> > > Scarcely. It's a trite and cliched reaction to any ostentatiously bulky vehicle.
> > >
> > >> About 250,000 miles since you asked. It's been to all four corners of the continental US and a hell of a lot of places in between.
> > >
> > > Why did you need an ostentatiously bulky vehicle to do that?
> > >
> > http://americanclassicscars.com/uploads/pictures/ford-f-150-4x4-low-miles-100646-wcamper-shell-4.jpg
> >
> > Because for much of the time I was living in it. I don't think a Smart
> > Car would have worked. Or perhaps I like being ostentatious. If so, the
> > F150 at 3750# curb weight wasn't the proper choice. My Lincoln was about
> > 5100#
> >
> > But you still haven't addressed the basic issue, troll. My 36 year old
> > vehicle doesn't need a new engine. I wonder how many 36 year old Teslas
> > there will be outside of museums?
> >
> > Now run along in your Kia Cerato...
> Who gives a shit about your 36 year old car? You seem to be obsessed with the idea that it means something. What do you think your 36 year old car means in the transition to BEVs that is taking place in the world?
>
> You do realize this is happening, and there's pretty much nothing you can do to stop it, right? In 10 years, virtually every car sold in the US will be a BEV. In 20 years, the vast majority of cars on the roads will be BEVs.. Gas stations will become the exception in 15 years and nearly extinct in 20 years. By 2042, if you aren't dead, you won't be driving your then, 56 year old car. You will either be driving a 20 year old ICE that you have to special order gasoline for, or you will be driving a pickup truck with a battery, very possibly made by Tesla.
>
> This is a reality that you may not prefer, but it is your future, whether you decide to like it or not.
>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> -++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> -++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

In your dreams. Batteries die of old age, but EVs haven't been around long enough to develop good statistics on that. One thing is certain: it will be uneconomical to replace the battery of an old EV (the battery costs more than the value of the car).

Re: Tesla is fast

<t5vur6$ks$1@dont-email.me>

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From: always.l...@message.header (John Doe)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 10:53:27 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: John Doe - Tue, 17 May 2022 10:53 UTC

Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> rbowman wrote:

>> http://americanclassicscars.com/uploads/pictures/ford-f-150-4x4-low-miles-100646-wcamper-shell-4.jpg
>>
>> Because for much of the time I was living in it. I don't think a Smart
>> Car would have worked. Or perhaps I like being ostentatious. If so, the
>
>> F150 at 3750# curb weight wasn't the proper choice. My Lincoln was
>> about
>
>> 5100#
>>
>> But you still haven't addressed the basic issue, troll [referring to
>> Bill "Bozo" Sloman]. My 36 year old vehicle doesn't need a new engine.
>> I wonder how many 36 year old Teslas there will be outside of museums?
>>
>> Now run along in your Kia Cerato...

Bozo has a Kia?

> Who gives a shit about your 36 year old car? You seem to be obsessed
> with the idea that it means something. What do you think your 36 year
> old car means in the transition to BEVs that is taking place in the
> world?

I wonder if it's taking place in Germany where electric power is a little
scarce these days thanks to them giving up nuclear and now being
sanctioned by Russia.

> You do realize this is happening, and there's pretty much nothing you
> can do to stop it, right? In 10 years, virtually every car sold in the
> US will be a BEV...

> This is a reality that you may not prefer, but it is your future,
> whether you decide to like it or not.

Sounds like wishful thinking. Seems diesel engines are doing well now. My
next-door neighbor bought a fancy diesel pickup truck six months ago. Gets
great gas mileage.

Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
billion small batteries...

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: kei...@kjwdesigns.com (ke...@kjwdesigns.com)
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 by: ke...@kjwdesigns.com - Tue, 17 May 2022 14:40 UTC

On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 03:53:34 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
....
>
> Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
> billion small batteries...

And what difference does that make. The small form factor cells are chosen by some manufacturers for sound engineering and financial reasons.

The Ford F-150 Lightning uses large pouch cells.

kw

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: edward.m...@gmail.com (Ed Lee)
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 by: Ed Lee - Tue, 17 May 2022 18:40 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 7:40:33 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 03:53:34 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> ...
> >
> > Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
> > billion small batteries...
> And what difference does that make. The small form factor cells are chosen by some manufacturers for sound engineering and financial reasons.
>
> The Ford F-150 Lightning uses large pouch cells.

GM uses large long pouch cells.
Tesla is moving to larger cylindrical cells.
But there are plenty of after market small cells (18650) for DIY hackers like me.

Re: Tesla is fast

<t60ruq$32a$1@dont-email.me>

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From: always.l...@message.header (John Doe)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:10:19 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: John Doe - Tue, 17 May 2022 19:10 UTC

Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.

It's to do with quality control.

"ke...@kjwdesigns.com" <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 03:53:34 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> ...
>>
>> Maybe when electric vehicles are made to use big batteries instead of a
>> billion small batteries...
>
> And what difference does that make. The small form factor cells are chosen
by some manufacturers for sound engineering and financial reasons.
>
> The Ford F-150 Lightning uses large pouch cells.
>
> kw

Re: Tesla is fast

<a88b85d7-1b15-4321-93fd-76b21e2b7b84n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: edward.m...@gmail.com (Ed Lee)
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 by: Ed Lee - Tue, 17 May 2022 19:23 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 12:10:26 PM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.

Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell and alarm if they overheat.

Re: Tesla is fast

<t60tjf$a00$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97058&group=sci.electronics.design#97058

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From: always.l...@message.header (John Doe)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 19:38:23 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: John Doe - Tue, 17 May 2022 19:38 UTC

Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

> John Doe wrote:

>> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those
>> cells fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
>
> Then the BMS is not doing it's job. Proper BMS should monitor each cell
> and alarm if they overheat.

It's bad design. Even if it's the only possible design, that doesn't make it
good design.

Re: Tesla is fast

<211ad8ca-1534-4bc9-b3a7-632f9cf13341n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: kei...@kjwdesigns.com (ke...@kjwdesigns.com)
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 by: ke...@kjwdesigns.com - Wed, 18 May 2022 00:50 UTC

On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.

That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.

From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".

"Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf

A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.

kw

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (Flyguy)
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 by: Flyguy - Thu, 19 May 2022 05:38 UTC

On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> > Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> > fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.
>
> From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".
>
> "Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
> https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf
>
> A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.
>
> kw

They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Ricky)
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 by: Ricky - Thu, 19 May 2022 06:44 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> > > Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> > > fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> > That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.
> >
> > From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".
> >
> > "Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
> > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf
> >
> > A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.
> >
> > kw
> They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.

You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.

The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs. The failures rates are comparable to the failure rates of fossil fueled vehicles which do burst into flame spontaneously as well. We are simply less worried by the relatively infrequent incidents which are dwarfed by the accident rates of automobiles caused by the operators. BEV issues get a lot of visibility, but are actually less likely.

You didn't anticipate that, did you?

--

Rick C.

-++-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: r_delane...@yahoo.com (RichD)
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 by: RichD - Thu, 19 May 2022 21:50 UTC

On May 13, Flyguy wrote:
> And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their
> love affair with electric cars will wain.
> And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from? Much of it is by burning coal.

They want to cover the Mojave desert with solar panels.

um, how's that going to affect the earth's albedo?
The solar energy currently bounced out to Mars, is going to stay
earthbound.... drive your car and coffeemaker... and at the end of
the day... global warming, hello!

The fourth law of thermodynamics: in the long run, energy efficiency
is zero, everything thermalizes -

--
Rich

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: kei...@kjwdesigns.com (ke...@kjwdesigns.com)
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 by: ke...@kjwdesigns.com - Fri, 20 May 2022 01:22 UTC

On Wednesday, 18 May 2022 at 22:38:46 UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
....
> They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.

Hardly "uneducated". It is backed up by the scientific reasoning.

We also do have some years of statistics showing the rate of EV car fires is actually lower that conventional vehicles:

https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/

That was a rather bad choice of airplane crash you chose as it was caused by fumes igniting in the fuel tank.

Of course if you like driving around with the energy equivalent of 60 lbs of dynamite in the back of your car that's fine by me.

kw

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Ricky)
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 by: Ricky - Fri, 20 May 2022 02:28 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 5:50:58 PM UTC-4, RichD wrote:
> On May 13, Flyguy wrote:
> > And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their
> > love affair with electric cars will wain.
> > And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from? Much of it is by burning coal.
>
> They want to cover the Mojave desert with solar panels.
>
> um, how's that going to affect the earth's albedo?
> The solar energy currently bounced out to Mars, is going to stay
> earthbound.... drive your car and coffeemaker... and at the end of
> the day... global warming, hello!
>
> The fourth law of thermodynamics: in the long run, energy efficiency
> is zero, everything thermalizes -

Who exactly is "they"? Where did you see this about covering the Mojave desert with solar panels?

I will say that it is clear you don't understand what global warming is about. It has nothing to do with the efficiency of the energy conversions required to provide power. It is about the CO2 released in the process.

--

Rick C.

-+++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Tesla is fast

<t67pe0$urm$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 10:10:08 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: John Doe - Fri, 20 May 2022 10:10 UTC

Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> RichD wrote:
>> Flyguy wrote:

>>> And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree
>>> huggers find this out their love affair with electric cars will wain.
>>> And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come
>>> from? Much of it is by burning coal.
>>
>> They want to cover the Mojave desert with solar panels.
>>
>> um, how's that going to affect the earth's albedo? The solar energy
>> currently bounced out to Mars, is going to stay earthbound.... drive
>> your car and coffeemaker... and at the end of the day... global
>> warming, hello!

Interesting point. Doesn't apply to something like solar roofing panels,
since that heat goes into the surrounding area if the sunlight isn't
converted into electricity. Reflective roofing panels would be rough on
aircraft.

>> The fourth law of thermodynamics: in the long run, energy efficiency
>> is zero, everything thermalizes -
>
> Who exactly is "they"? Where did you see this about covering the Mojave
> desert with solar panels?
>
> I will say that it is clear you don't understand what global warming is
> about. It has nothing to do with the efficiency of the energy
> conversions required to provide power. It is about the CO2 released in
> the process.

Trees consume CO2. The more CO2, the more trees. More trees for you to hug.

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Fri, 20 May 2022 17:17 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 3:10:15 AM UTC-7, John Doe wrote:

> Trees consume CO2. The more CO2, the more trees. More trees for you to hug.

Where to begin? That's completely false. Firstly, forests are thermoregulating
and are efficient CO2 sinks because of their evaporative cooling (using
water from roots to keep leaves at optimum photosynthetic temperature).
So, it isn't 'trees' you want, it's forests.
Second, more CO2 might change the growing conditions, but as it heats
the planet, that cooling might not work as well (it does need water). Fires
can take forests down to ash if weather cycles make flammable wood
faster than the deadwood can decay, so... warming climate threatens forests.

That means FEWER trees, unless some seeds in the soil survive the inferno.
One doesn't hug saplings.

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (Flyguy)
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 by: Flyguy - Fri, 20 May 2022 21:17 UTC

On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 11:44:43 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> > > > Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> > > > fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> > > That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.
> > >
> > > From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".
> > >
> > > "Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
> > > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf
> > >
> > > A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.
> > >
> > > kw
> > They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.
> You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.
>
> The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs. The failures rates are comparable to the failure rates of fossil fueled vehicles which do burst into flame spontaneously as well. We are simply less worried by the relatively infrequent incidents which are dwarfed by the accident rates of automobiles caused by the operators. BEV issues get a lot of visibility, but are actually less likely.
>
> You didn't anticipate that, did you?
>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> -++-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> -++-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

No comparison whatsoever - the average age of ICE cars is much older than EVs, and fires are much more frequent in old cars. Lithium batteries suffer from, among manner other things, shorts due to dendrite growth, which takes time to occur. Also, ICE car fires occur primarily when driven, while EVs can catch fire ANYTIME, and do. And when they do catch fire, the fire is impossible to put out and the car must burn to exhaustion at extremely high temperatures. Furthermore, airplanes undergo regular mandated inspection and periodic rebuilding, and MUST comply with all mandatory airworthiness directives - cars do not. Didn't anticipate that, did you?

Re: Tesla is fast

<op.1miu8wlmmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 21 May 2022 14:15 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:16:23 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:58:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:09:18 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >
>> >> As Lithium runs out, the prices will skyrocket.
>> >
>> > Nonsense, but of course someone selling you an investment opportunity won't tell
>> > you that.
>> >
>> > Lithium is mined from dried-up sea beds, because some of the dried salts have useful
>> > concentrations of that element There's lots of those, and the most economic are being
>> > mined now, while the next-most-economic will be mined in a decade. The metal isn't
>> > rare, and the price will disappoint investors who buy today at a big premium.
>> I quote er.... you, with "the most economic are being mined now" - it's gonna get very hard soon to mine it, so the price will shoot up.
>
> How can one person be so stupid? When stupidity was being handed out, I think he took the ration of a hundred others.

Whoosh! So again.... "the most economic are being mined now", so what does that make the others..... er.... let me see.... LESS economic.

Re: Tesla is fast

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 21 May 2022 14:16 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:16:23 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:58:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:09:18 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >
>> >> As Lithium runs out, the prices will skyrocket.
>> >
>> > Nonsense, but of course someone selling you an investment opportunity won't tell
>> > you that.
>> >
>> > Lithium is mined from dried-up sea beds, because some of the dried salts have useful
>> > concentrations of that element There's lots of those, and the most economic are being
>> > mined now, while the next-most-economic will be mined in a decade. The metal isn't
>> > rare, and the price will disappoint investors who buy today at a big premium.
>> I quote er.... you, with "the most economic are being mined now" - it's gonna get very hard soon to mine it, so the price will shoot up.
>
> How can one person be so stupid? When stupidity was being handed out, I think he took the ration of a hundred others.

Go watch people rolling coal on Teslas, it's funny as fuck. Keep your toxic highly explosive lithium to yourself.

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