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The number of arguments is unimportant unless some of them are correct. -- Ralph Hartley


tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: Error correction in short packet.

SubjectAuthor
* Error correction in short packet.Clive Arthur
+* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|+* Re: Error correction in short packet.Lasse Langwadt Christensen
||+* Re: Error correction in short packet.John Walliker
|||+* Re: Error correction in short packet.John Larkin
||||`- Re: Error correction in short packet.whit3rd
|||`- Re: Error correction in short packet.Gerhard Hoffmann
||`- Re: Error correction in short packet.Martin Brown
|`* Re: Error correction in short packet.David Eather
| `* Re: Error correction in short packet.John Larkin
|  +* Re: Error correction in short packet.Martin Brown
|  |+* Re: Error correction in short packet.Clive Arthur
|  ||`- Re: Error correction in short packet.Martin Brown
|  |`- Re: Error correction in short packet.Don Y
|  `* Re: Error correction in short packet.David Eather
|   `* Re: Error correction in short packet.John S
|    `- Re: Error correction in short packet.David Eather
+* Re:Error correction in short packet.Martin Rid
|`- Re: Error correction in short packet.Clive Arthur
+- Re: Error correction in short packet.Don Y
+* Re: Error correction in short packet.Sylvia Else
|`* Re: Error correction in short packet.Clive Arthur
| +- Re: Error correction in short packet.Martin Brown
| `* Re: Error correction in short packet.Keegan Major
|  +* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  |`* Re: Error correction in short packet.Lasse Langwadt Christensen
|  | `* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  |  +* Re: Error correction in short packet.Jeroen Belleman
|  |  |+* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  |  ||+- Re: Error correction in short packet.Phil Hobbs
|  |  ||`- Re: Error correction in short packet.Jeroen Belleman
|  |  |`* Re: Error correction in short packet.Martin Brown
|  |  | +- Re: Error correction in short packet.John Larkin
|  |  | +* Re: Error correction in short packet.Phil Hobbs
|  |  | |+* Re: Error correction in short packet.John Larkin
|  |  | ||+* Re: Error correction in short packet.Phil Hobbs
|  |  | |||`* Re: Error correction in short packet.John Larkin
|  |  | ||| `* Re: Error correction in short packet.Phil Hobbs
|  |  | |||  `* Re: Error correction in short packet.John Larkin
|  |  | |||   `- Re: Error correction in short packet.Phil Hobbs
|  |  | ||`* Re: Error correction in short packet.whit3rd
|  |  | || `- Re: Error correction in short packet.Martin Brown
|  |  | |`- Re: Error correction in short packet.marty
|  |  | `* Re: Error correction in short packet.Don Y
|  |  |  `- Re: Error correction in short packet.John Larkin
|  |  `* Re: Error correction in short packet.whit3rd
|  |   +* Re: Error correction in short packet.John Larkin
|  |   |`* Re: Error correction in short packet.whit3rd
|  |   | +* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  |   | |`* Re: Error correction in short packet.whit3rd
|  |   | | `* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  |   | |  +* Re: Error correction in short packet.whit3rd
|  |   | |  |`* Re: Error correction in short packet.Flyguy
|  |   | |  | `- Re: Error correction in short packet.Flyguy
|  |   | |  `* Re: Error correction in short packet.Phil Hobbs
|  |   | |   `* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  |   | |    `- Re: Error correction in short packet.whit3rd
|  |   | `* Re: Error correction in short packet.Phil Hobbs
|  |   |  `* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  |   |   `* Re: Error correction in short packet.Lasse Langwadt Christensen
|  |   |    `* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  |   |     `- Re: Error correction in short packet.Phil Hobbs
|  |   `* Re: Error correction in short packet.Don Y
|  |    `* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  |     `* Re: Error correction in short packet.boB
|  |      `* Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  |       `* Re: Error correction in short packet.boB
|  |        `- Re: Error correction in short packet.jlarkin
|  `- Re: Error correction in short packet.Cydrome Leader
+* Re: Error correction in short packet.Jasen Betts
|`* Re: Error correction in short packet.Jasen Betts
| `- Re: Error correction in short packet.Clive Arthur
`- Re: Error correction in short packet.David Eather

Pages:123
Re: Error correction in short packet.

<24f80f15-269f-4b0b-9f10-db8ee5369d66n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Fri, 20 May 2022 17:46 UTC

On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 3:31:23 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

> Yes, I work more by instinct and simulation. But my world is largely
> nonlinear, where the math is basically impossible.

Identifying a problem as nonlinear IS math; it's obviously useful info,
and the only deficiency is in the non-utility of common approximations.
The math is not impossible, just... more difficult.

Re: Error correction in short packet.

<2418296f-9c84-4ca0-9d15-e4653ec9127an@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Fri, 20 May 2022 17:58 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:28:54 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:38:24 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:

> >> Oh, lots of people are reflexively hostile to new or unconventional
> >> ideas. Those personalities poison brainstorming sessions.
> >
> >For those of us who haven't experienced poisoned brainstorming sessions,
> >describe the 'hostility'.

> Some people, especially ones with grey hair, immediately find fault
> with ideas instead of riffing on them. That intimidates some
> contributors, especially young ones. Sometimes they have sufficient
> gravity that they kill a promising discussion.

Swift fault analysis isn't hostility, it is effective argument.
Brainstorming is a formal procedure that eliminates the scenario you describe;
there are no immediate judgments.

Competent individuals will foresee problems, and avoid them,
but that is NOT hostility in any sense of the word. Ideas aren't opponents.

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
From: langw...@fonz.dk (Lasse Langwadt Christensen)
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 by: Lasse Langwadt Chris - Fri, 20 May 2022 18:41 UTC

fredag den 20. maj 2022 kl. 18.46.50 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
> On Fri, 20 May 2022 12:11:23 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
> >whit3rd wrote:
> >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:24:46 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:03:55 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas.
> >>
> >>>> No sane conscious mind is 'hostile to ideas' in any more general sense; that
> >>>> would be pathological, like being hostile to one's own body parts.
> >>
> >>> Oh, lots of people are reflexively hostile to new or unconventional
> >>> ideas. Those personalities poison brainstorming sessions.
> >>
> >> For those of us who haven't experienced poisoned brainstorming sessions,
> >> describe the 'hostility'. I have grey hair, but cannot recall ever meeting
> >> someone who was 'hostile to ideas' in general.
> >>
> >
> >You've lived a sheltered life. Back in my early days at IBM Research, I
> >was in the Manufacturing Research department. It was pretty much a
> >gizmo-builder's paradise--an apparently endless series of hard,
> >interesting, and economically important problems that needed custom
> >instruments to solve, pleasant and very smart colleagues, smart and
> >patient management, and very few budget constraints. A pal of mine from
> >back then, the estimable Clayton Williams (now flourishing at BYU)
> >needed a new lock-in amplifier. He was thinking out loud one day, "It's
> >stupid to buy just one. I probably don't need five, so let's order
> >two." Two shiny new lock-ins arrived in a few days. If he had needed
> >five, five would have come instead.
> >
> >We were entirely self-governed--our budget came out of a big pot at
> >Corporate, so the folks we were nominally serving couldn't really tell
> >us what to do. Not that doing stuff randomly was encouraged, you
> >understand, but we didn't have the product divisions cracking any whips
> >that we had to care about. As I said, a great place to build gizmos.
> >
> >While the customers couldn't tell us what to do, there was a certain
> >contingent of folks who seemed to resent this--apparently they were
> >happier being able to make vendors dance to their tune. Thus they chose
> >to throw rocks and tell the folks trying to do stuff that it would never
> >work, that progress was unacceptable, that the instrument concept was
> >all wrong, and so on and so forth. Those folks, you absolutely had to
> >keep out of the planning stage of the project, or they'd trash you to
> >their management and often succeed in killing the effort.
> >
> >There were also folks who wanted to swoop in once the project was on
> >rails and steal the credit. There was even a select demographic that
> >habitually did both.
> >
> >When IBM had its near-death experience in 1992, all those folks were
> >gone, which was great, but so of course were the lush budgets, which
> >wasn't that great. My time at IBM was like the perfect 21-year
> >vacation--I was excited to start and excited to leave (as well as scared).
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> >Phil Hobbs
> It's interesting that none of the giant tube companies were long-term
> successful in semiconductors. Garage shops killed GE, RCA, Motorola,
> Sylvania, and many others.

the semiconductor division of Motorola became ON semiconductor in 1999, they are still a 30000 employee company ...

Re: Error correction in short packet.

<51rf8htnqi42088roidg2bmkpaurqs7cjp@4ax.com>

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From: jlar...@highland_atwork_technology.com (John Larkin)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 12:36:28 -0700
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 by: John Larkin - Fri, 20 May 2022 19:36 UTC

On Thu, 19 May 2022 22:01:59 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 19:12:20 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 17:10:04 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/05/2022 16:14, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2022-05-19 17:03, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>>>>>>>> <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> torsdag den 19. maj 2022 kl. 16.36.23 UTC+2 skrev
>>>>>>>>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:58:33 -0000 (UTC), Keegan Major
>>>>>>>>>> <keegan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Clive Arthur <cl...@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 19/05/2022 04:27, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is your channel really that noisy that you cannot just discard bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>> packets?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have control over the transmission path, it may be noisy, it
>>>>>>>>>>>> may not - it's not a fixed installation. [snip...] I can't request a
>>>>>>>>>>>> resend, and sending multiple copies restricts bandwidth too much.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, 17 messages in to the thread, and the group finally is told some
>>>>>>>>>>> of the critical unstated requirements that *should* have been part of
>>>>>>>>>>> the initial message, and would have avoided about 14 "can't you
>>>>>>>>>>> resend"
>>>>>>>>>>> or "can't you send multiple" messages.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Don't you think this above should have been in your initial post so
>>>>>>>>>>> that the rest of us, who can't read your mind to divine unstated
>>>>>>>>>>> limitations, were appraised of some rather critical limitations?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's normal here to get underspecified problems. Details usually
>>>>>>>>>> emerge, but some people do refuse to explain their top-secret
>>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://xyproblem.info/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Underspecified problems do encourage lots of lateral/goofy thinking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Almost all of which is completely wasted. Your proposal of send it three
>>>>>> times and vote best out of three being amongst them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is just about enough space to do what the OP wants but whether or
>>>>>> not they have the mathematical sophistication and programming skills to
>>>>>> implement it quickly enough to be useful is still an open question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas. Their career path is more
>>>>>>>> McDonalds than electronic design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You have that *EXACTLY* backwards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you cannot adequately describe the exact problem that you are trying
>>>>>> to solve then you will spend vast amounts of effort solving the wrong
>>>>>> problem(s) again and again. I have seen it happen many times.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Goofy ideas aren't really welcome if they upset a sizable fraction
>>>>>>> of effort already invested. Ideas are cheap. Realizing them is costly.
>>>>>>> You'll want to be selective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Half the battle is specifying the problem and any hard constraints so
>>>>>> that proposed solutions will actually stand a chance of working on the
>>>>>> available hardware and quickly enough to be useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm way more in JL's camp, although not 100%. (I do more math than he
>>>>> does.)
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I work more by instinct and simulation. But my world is largely
>>>> nonlinear, where the math is basically impossible.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course you don't want to take the first thing that comes into your
>>>>> head and build that--nobody's advocating that here AFAICT. I've seen it
>>>>> a lot in the wild, though. In fact, one outfit I had to deal with (a CE
>>>>> in Orange County CA) kept ignoring advice that was backed up with
>>>>> detailed mathematical analysis and a _working_prototype_ of what they
>>>>> were supposed to build. (That transcutaneous blood glucose thing again.)
>>>>>
>>>>> They just trying things randomly until they ran through the client's
>>>>> money and then quit. One time when I pinged them about it, a bright lad
>>>>> smiled and said, "That's engineering!"
>>>>>
>>>>> Riiighhhtt.
>>>>>
>>>>> But a lot, a lot of people seem to have very little emotional tolerance
>>>>> for being in a state of uncertainty. I can't prove that, but over and
>>>>> over I've seen folks spend far too little time turning the problem over
>>>>> in their minds, talking at the white board, and so on, and just charging
>>>>> in and doing the first thing that seemed plausible.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. Uncertainty makes many people uncomfortable, so they lock down an
>>>> architecture as soon as they can. I've seen horrors.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's super dumb. At the beginning of the process, you have to
>>>>> cultivate offbeat ideas, because (at least in the sort of gizmos I
>>>>> build) there's usually some way to do the task much better and/or
>>>>> cheaper than what's out there.
>>>>>
>>>>> In general you should spend something like 10% of the time figuring out
>>>>> what you should build, and the rest designing and building it. Skimping
>>>>> on the one very often leads to poor results on the other.
>>>>
>>>> Brainstorming and a period of confusion can often greatly simplify the
>>>> design, or add nifty features. It's well worth the tradeoff.
>>>>
>>>> Design is a partly emotional process, which lots of engineers don't
>>>> want to admit either.
>>>>
>>>
>>> One time long ago, I was in a two-day class for OS/2 Presentation
>>> Manager programming. (I did say it was long ago.) ;)
>>>
>>> At one point, the presenter (who was actually very good) asked us two
>>> questions: Is design an art or a science? What about debugging?
>>>
>>> Just about everyone said that design was a science and debugging was an
>>> art. That's backwards.
>>>
>>> A design is done when the designer says it's done, generally including a
>>> good long list of checks for performance, DRC, EMI, ROHS, MIL HDBK 217,
>>> ad nauseam. There are nearly always a ridiculously large number of
>>> different ways to do the job, if you count all the combinations. That
>>> makes it an art.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, troubleshooting is definitely a science. There's a
>>> problem someplace, because this item doesn't behave like the N previous
>>> ones that worked. You find it by applying critical tests and reasoning
>>> about them, and when the problem is found and fixed, everyone can agree
>>> that it's gone.
>>>
>>> Debugging first articles is a bit of both, because you often find design
>>> screwups (hopefully minor). In my world that often includes
>>> layout-dependent stuff such as how high a current can you run through
>>> your 12 GHz pHEMT or 45-GHz SiGe BJT before it becomes unstable.
>>> Swapping out jumpers for beads, tweaking current sources, that sort of
>>> stuff.
>>>
>>> In rare instances it's something really stupid such as upside-down power
>>> supplies on an op amp, but normally the first articles are shippable
>>> with maybe a roach wire or two.
>>
>> After some years, we have evolved procedures that mostly prevent
>> getting V+ and V- swapped on opamps.
>>
>>>
>>> We have had the occasional disaster, such as a small module with three
>>> SMPSes on it to make several rails from a +24V wall wart. The negative
>>> rails were made by an AOZ1282 async buck running off the output of an
>>> LMR23630 sync buck (+13 -> -12 and +24 ->+13, respectively).
>>>
>>> The A-O part is generally super well behaved, but the two together
>>> produced a _ridiculous_ selection of high harmonics of the LMR23630's
>>> 2.15 MHz switching frequency. It was the stuff of nightmares--measuring
>>> one node produced a big peak at 182 MHz, and another one nearby had
>>> another peak at 121 MHz, selected by various incidental resonances.
>>>
>>> With that one, we just cut our losses. ;(
>>>
>
>> We recently had an LTM8078 "Silent Switcher" screaming at us in 400
>> MHz bursts at 2.5 MHz. The embarassing part was that the customer
>> discovered it. Oops.
>>
>> A nice ancient National 50 KHz Simple Switcher fixed that, with a
>> board spin of course. And gigantic inductors.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ah90qsi0007ymjv/Mon_Noise_2.jpg?raw=1
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/9grk3iqwzifmw6w/Mon_Noise_LTM8078.jpg?raw=1
>>
>I've had good luck with the 150 kHz ones too, with Schottky catch diodes
>to prevent current spikes from PN diode recovery. They do tend to need
>chunky inductors to handle all those voltseconds.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Error correction in short packet.

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From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 16:37:41 -0400
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Fri, 20 May 2022 20:37 UTC

John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 19 May 2022 22:01:59 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 19:12:20 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 17:10:04 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>>>> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Martin Brown wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/05/2022 16:14, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-19 17:03, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>>>>>>>>> <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> torsdag den 19. maj 2022 kl. 16.36.23 UTC+2 skrev
>>>>>>>>>> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:58:33 -0000 (UTC), Keegan Major
>>>>>>>>>>> <keegan...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Clive Arthur <cl...@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 19/05/2022 04:27, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is your channel really that noisy that you cannot just discard bad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> packets?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't have control over the transmission path, it may be noisy, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> may not - it's not a fixed installation. [snip...] I can't request a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> resend, and sending multiple copies restricts bandwidth too much.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmm, 17 messages in to the thread, and the group finally is told some
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the critical unstated requirements that *should* have been part of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the initial message, and would have avoided about 14 "can't you
>>>>>>>>>>>> resend"
>>>>>>>>>>>> or "can't you send multiple" messages.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't you think this above should have been in your initial post so
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the rest of us, who can't read your mind to divine unstated
>>>>>>>>>>>> limitations, were appraised of some rather critical limitations?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's normal here to get underspecified problems. Details usually
>>>>>>>>>>> emerge, but some people do refuse to explain their top-secret
>>>>>>>>>>> projects.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://xyproblem.info/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Underspecified problems do encourage lots of lateral/goofy thinking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Almost all of which is completely wasted. Your proposal of send it three
>>>>>>> times and vote best out of three being amongst them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is just about enough space to do what the OP wants but whether or
>>>>>>> not they have the mathematical sophistication and programming skills to
>>>>>>> implement it quickly enough to be useful is still an open question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas. Their career path is more
>>>>>>>>> McDonalds than electronic design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You have that *EXACTLY* backwards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you cannot adequately describe the exact problem that you are trying
>>>>>>> to solve then you will spend vast amounts of effort solving the wrong
>>>>>>> problem(s) again and again. I have seen it happen many times.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Goofy ideas aren't really welcome if they upset a sizable fraction
>>>>>>>> of effort already invested. Ideas are cheap. Realizing them is costly.
>>>>>>>> You'll want to be selective.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Half the battle is specifying the problem and any hard constraints so
>>>>>>> that proposed solutions will actually stand a chance of working on the
>>>>>>> available hardware and quickly enough to be useful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm way more in JL's camp, although not 100%. (I do more math than he
>>>>>> does.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I work more by instinct and simulation. But my world is largely
>>>>> nonlinear, where the math is basically impossible.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course you don't want to take the first thing that comes into your
>>>>>> head and build that--nobody's advocating that here AFAICT. I've seen it
>>>>>> a lot in the wild, though. In fact, one outfit I had to deal with (a CE
>>>>>> in Orange County CA) kept ignoring advice that was backed up with
>>>>>> detailed mathematical analysis and a _working_prototype_ of what they
>>>>>> were supposed to build. (That transcutaneous blood glucose thing again.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They just trying things randomly until they ran through the client's
>>>>>> money and then quit. One time when I pinged them about it, a bright lad
>>>>>> smiled and said, "That's engineering!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Riiighhhtt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But a lot, a lot of people seem to have very little emotional tolerance
>>>>>> for being in a state of uncertainty. I can't prove that, but over and
>>>>>> over I've seen folks spend far too little time turning the problem over
>>>>>> in their minds, talking at the white board, and so on, and just charging
>>>>>> in and doing the first thing that seemed plausible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. Uncertainty makes many people uncomfortable, so they lock down an
>>>>> architecture as soon as they can. I've seen horrors.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's super dumb. At the beginning of the process, you have to
>>>>>> cultivate offbeat ideas, because (at least in the sort of gizmos I
>>>>>> build) there's usually some way to do the task much better and/or
>>>>>> cheaper than what's out there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In general you should spend something like 10% of the time figuring out
>>>>>> what you should build, and the rest designing and building it. Skimping
>>>>>> on the one very often leads to poor results on the other.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brainstorming and a period of confusion can often greatly simplify the
>>>>> design, or add nifty features. It's well worth the tradeoff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Design is a partly emotional process, which lots of engineers don't
>>>>> want to admit either.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One time long ago, I was in a two-day class for OS/2 Presentation
>>>> Manager programming. (I did say it was long ago.) ;)
>>>>
>>>> At one point, the presenter (who was actually very good) asked us two
>>>> questions: Is design an art or a science? What about debugging?
>>>>
>>>> Just about everyone said that design was a science and debugging was an
>>>> art. That's backwards.
>>>>
>>>> A design is done when the designer says it's done, generally including a
>>>> good long list of checks for performance, DRC, EMI, ROHS, MIL HDBK 217,
>>>> ad nauseam. There are nearly always a ridiculously large number of
>>>> different ways to do the job, if you count all the combinations. That
>>>> makes it an art.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand, troubleshooting is definitely a science. There's a
>>>> problem someplace, because this item doesn't behave like the N previous
>>>> ones that worked. You find it by applying critical tests and reasoning
>>>> about them, and when the problem is found and fixed, everyone can agree
>>>> that it's gone.
>>>>
>>>> Debugging first articles is a bit of both, because you often find design
>>>> screwups (hopefully minor). In my world that often includes
>>>> layout-dependent stuff such as how high a current can you run through
>>>> your 12 GHz pHEMT or 45-GHz SiGe BJT before it becomes unstable.
>>>> Swapping out jumpers for beads, tweaking current sources, that sort of
>>>> stuff.
>>>>
>>>> In rare instances it's something really stupid such as upside-down power
>>>> supplies on an op amp, but normally the first articles are shippable
>>>> with maybe a roach wire or two.
>>>
>>> After some years, we have evolved procedures that mostly prevent
>>> getting V+ and V- swapped on opamps.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> We have had the occasional disaster, such as a small module with three
>>>> SMPSes on it to make several rails from a +24V wall wart. The negative
>>>> rails were made by an AOZ1282 async buck running off the output of an
>>>> LMR23630 sync buck (+13 -> -12 and +24 ->+13, respectively).
>>>>
>>>> The A-O part is generally super well behaved, but the two together
>>>> produced a _ridiculous_ selection of high harmonics of the LMR23630's
>>>> 2.15 MHz switching frequency. It was the stuff of nightmares--measuring
>>>> one node produced a big peak at 182 MHz, and another one nearby had
>>>> another peak at 121 MHz, selected by various incidental resonances.
>>>>
>>>> With that one, we just cut our losses. ;(
>>>>
>>
>>> We recently had an LTM8078 "Silent Switcher" screaming at us in 400
>>> MHz bursts at 2.5 MHz. The embarassing part was that the customer
>>> discovered it. Oops.
>>>
>>> A nice ancient National 50 KHz Simple Switcher fixed that, with a
>>> board spin of course. And gigantic inductors.
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/ah90qsi0007ymjv/Mon_Noise_2.jpg?raw=1
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/9grk3iqwzifmw6w/Mon_Noise_LTM8078.jpg?raw=1
>>>
>> I've had good luck with the 150 kHz ones too, with Schottky catch diodes
>> to prevent current spikes from PN diode recovery. They do tend to need
>> chunky inductors to handle all those voltseconds.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> When people make mosfet substrate diodes, they tend to make them
> step-recovery diodes. There must be some semi fab reason for that.
>
> Adding an external schottky catch diode to a spikey synchronous
> switcher doesn't seem to help.


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Error correction in short packet.

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From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
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Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 18:10:41 -0700
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sat, 21 May 2022 01:10 UTC

On Fri, 20 May 2022 11:41:10 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>fredag den 20. maj 2022 kl. 18.46.50 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 12:11:23 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>> >whit3rd wrote:
>> >> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>> >>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:24:46 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:03:55 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas.
>> >>
>> >>>> No sane conscious mind is 'hostile to ideas' in any more general sense; that
>> >>>> would be pathological, like being hostile to one's own body parts.
>> >>
>> >>> Oh, lots of people are reflexively hostile to new or unconventional
>> >>> ideas. Those personalities poison brainstorming sessions.
>> >>
>> >> For those of us who haven't experienced poisoned brainstorming sessions,
>> >> describe the 'hostility'. I have grey hair, but cannot recall ever meeting
>> >> someone who was 'hostile to ideas' in general.
>> >>
>> >
>> >You've lived a sheltered life. Back in my early days at IBM Research, I
>> >was in the Manufacturing Research department. It was pretty much a
>> >gizmo-builder's paradise--an apparently endless series of hard,
>> >interesting, and economically important problems that needed custom
>> >instruments to solve, pleasant and very smart colleagues, smart and
>> >patient management, and very few budget constraints. A pal of mine from
>> >back then, the estimable Clayton Williams (now flourishing at BYU)
>> >needed a new lock-in amplifier. He was thinking out loud one day, "It's
>> >stupid to buy just one. I probably don't need five, so let's order
>> >two." Two shiny new lock-ins arrived in a few days. If he had needed
>> >five, five would have come instead.
>> >
>> >We were entirely self-governed--our budget came out of a big pot at
>> >Corporate, so the folks we were nominally serving couldn't really tell
>> >us what to do. Not that doing stuff randomly was encouraged, you
>> >understand, but we didn't have the product divisions cracking any whips
>> >that we had to care about. As I said, a great place to build gizmos.
>> >
>> >While the customers couldn't tell us what to do, there was a certain
>> >contingent of folks who seemed to resent this--apparently they were
>> >happier being able to make vendors dance to their tune. Thus they chose
>> >to throw rocks and tell the folks trying to do stuff that it would never
>> >work, that progress was unacceptable, that the instrument concept was
>> >all wrong, and so on and so forth. Those folks, you absolutely had to
>> >keep out of the planning stage of the project, or they'd trash you to
>> >their management and often succeed in killing the effort.
>> >
>> >There were also folks who wanted to swoop in once the project was on
>> >rails and steal the credit. There was even a select demographic that
>> >habitually did both.
>> >
>> >When IBM had its near-death experience in 1992, all those folks were
>> >gone, which was great, but so of course were the lush budgets, which
>> >wasn't that great. My time at IBM was like the perfect 21-year
>> >vacation--I was excited to start and excited to leave (as well as scared).
>> >
>> >Cheers
>> >
>> >Phil Hobbs
>> It's interesting that none of the giant tube companies were long-term
>> successful in semiconductors. Garage shops killed GE, RCA, Motorola,
>> Sylvania, and many others.
>
>the semiconductor division of Motorola became ON semiconductor in 1999, they are still a 30000 employee company ...

Sort of like HP spinning off Agilent spinning off Keysight. Management
couldn't keep too many things in their heads at once.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sat, 21 May 2022 01:14 UTC

On Fri, 20 May 2022 10:58:45 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:28:54 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:38:24 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> >> Oh, lots of people are reflexively hostile to new or unconventional
>> >> ideas. Those personalities poison brainstorming sessions.
>> >
>> >For those of us who haven't experienced poisoned brainstorming sessions,
>> >describe the 'hostility'.
>
>> Some people, especially ones with grey hair, immediately find fault
>> with ideas instead of riffing on them. That intimidates some
>> contributors, especially young ones. Sometimes they have sufficient
>> gravity that they kill a promising discussion.
>
>Swift fault analysis isn't hostility, it is effective argument.

It is hostility and it kills ideas in their infancy. "Argument" says
it all. Right and wrong is a zero-sum game, or usually less than zero.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Sat, 21 May 2022 03:17 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:14:08 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2022 10:58:45 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:28:54 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

> >> Some people, especially ones with grey hair, immediately find fault
> >> with ideas instead of riffing on them. That intimidates some
> >> contributors, especially young ones. Sometimes they have sufficient
> >> gravity that they kill a promising discussion.

> >Swift fault analysis isn't hostility, it is effective argument.

> It is hostility and it kills ideas in their infancy. "Argument" says
> it all. Right and wrong is a zero-sum game, or usually less than zero.

No, the term for a negative-sum argument is 'sophistry'.
Sophistries are not valid arguments.
Valid arguments are VALUABLE contributions.

Some folk are timid, will prefer small incremental changes (that's
a good strategy against uncerainty).

Some folk are conservative, will reject novel, untried approaches (that's
useful if you have a time or material budget).

Some folk are insightful, will foresee an awkward or impossible step
in advance.

So, an immediate finding of fault can have lots of causes, none of which
are 'hostile to ideas' in nature. And, occasionally (Boeing's 737Max comes to mind)
a NO is the right design answer; why delay putting it on the table?

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (Flyguy)
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 by: Flyguy - Sat, 21 May 2022 04:01 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:17:35 PM UTC-7, whit3rd wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:14:08 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 May 2022 10:58:45 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:28:54 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>
> > >> Some people, especially ones with grey hair, immediately find fault
> > >> with ideas instead of riffing on them. That intimidates some
> > >> contributors, especially young ones. Sometimes they have sufficient
> > >> gravity that they kill a promising discussion.
>
> > >Swift fault analysis isn't hostility, it is effective argument.
>
> > It is hostility and it kills ideas in their infancy. "Argument" says
> > it all. Right and wrong is a zero-sum game, or usually less than zero.
> No, the term for a negative-sum argument is 'sophistry'.
> Sophistries are not valid arguments.
> Valid arguments are VALUABLE contributions.
>
> Some folk are timid, will prefer small incremental changes (that's
> a good strategy against uncerainty).
>
> Some folk are conservative, will reject novel, untried approaches (that's
> useful if you have a time or material budget).
>
> Some folk are insightful, will foresee an awkward or impossible step
> in advance.
>
> So, an immediate finding of fault can have lots of causes, none of which
> are 'hostile to ideas' in nature. And, occasionally (Boeing's 737Max comes to mind)
> a NO is the right design answer; why delay putting it on the table?

I vote for Golay codes. Here is a short writeup:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_Golay_code

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
From: soar2mor...@yahoo.com (Flyguy)
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 by: Flyguy - Sat, 21 May 2022 04:09 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:01:12 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:17:35 PM UTC-7, whit3rd wrote:
> > On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:14:08 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> > > On Fri, 20 May 2022 10:58:45 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:28:54 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >
> > > >> Some people, especially ones with grey hair, immediately find fault
> > > >> with ideas instead of riffing on them. That intimidates some
> > > >> contributors, especially young ones. Sometimes they have sufficient
> > > >> gravity that they kill a promising discussion.
> >
> > > >Swift fault analysis isn't hostility, it is effective argument.
> >
> > > It is hostility and it kills ideas in their infancy. "Argument" says
> > > it all. Right and wrong is a zero-sum game, or usually less than zero.
> > No, the term for a negative-sum argument is 'sophistry'.
> > Sophistries are not valid arguments.
> > Valid arguments are VALUABLE contributions.
> >
> > Some folk are timid, will prefer small incremental changes (that's
> > a good strategy against uncerainty).
> >
> > Some folk are conservative, will reject novel, untried approaches (that's
> > useful if you have a time or material budget).
> >
> > Some folk are insightful, will foresee an awkward or impossible step
> > in advance.
> >
> > So, an immediate finding of fault can have lots of causes, none of which
> > are 'hostile to ideas' in nature. And, occasionally (Boeing's 737Max comes to mind)
> > a NO is the right design answer; why delay putting it on the table?
> I vote for Golay codes. Here is a short writeup:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_Golay_code

And here is the actual code to implement it:
https://github.com/pkdoshinji/Golay/blob/master/Golay.py

Re: Error correction in short packet.

<1c48e438-b0b5-3ba7-8b68-eadeb97e23a2@electrooptical.net>

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From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 21:39:52 -0400
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Sun, 22 May 2022 01:39 UTC

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2022 11:41:10 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
> <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
>> fredag den 20. maj 2022 kl. 18.46.50 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 12:11:23 -0400, Phil Hobbs
>>> <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> whit3rd wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:24:46 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:03:55 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> No sane conscious mind is 'hostile to ideas' in any more general sense; that
>>>>>>> would be pathological, like being hostile to one's own body parts.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, lots of people are reflexively hostile to new or unconventional
>>>>>> ideas. Those personalities poison brainstorming sessions.
>>>>>
>>>>> For those of us who haven't experienced poisoned brainstorming sessions,
>>>>> describe the 'hostility'. I have grey hair, but cannot recall ever meeting
>>>>> someone who was 'hostile to ideas' in general.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You've lived a sheltered life. Back in my early days at IBM Research, I
>>>> was in the Manufacturing Research department. It was pretty much a
>>>> gizmo-builder's paradise--an apparently endless series of hard,
>>>> interesting, and economically important problems that needed custom
>>>> instruments to solve, pleasant and very smart colleagues, smart and
>>>> patient management, and very few budget constraints. A pal of mine from
>>>> back then, the estimable Clayton Williams (now flourishing at BYU)
>>>> needed a new lock-in amplifier. He was thinking out loud one day, "It's
>>>> stupid to buy just one. I probably don't need five, so let's order
>>>> two." Two shiny new lock-ins arrived in a few days. If he had needed
>>>> five, five would have come instead.
>>>>
>>>> We were entirely self-governed--our budget came out of a big pot at
>>>> Corporate, so the folks we were nominally serving couldn't really tell
>>>> us what to do. Not that doing stuff randomly was encouraged, you
>>>> understand, but we didn't have the product divisions cracking any whips
>>>> that we had to care about. As I said, a great place to build gizmos.
>>>>
>>>> While the customers couldn't tell us what to do, there was a certain
>>>> contingent of folks who seemed to resent this--apparently they were
>>>> happier being able to make vendors dance to their tune. Thus they chose
>>>> to throw rocks and tell the folks trying to do stuff that it would never
>>>> work, that progress was unacceptable, that the instrument concept was
>>>> all wrong, and so on and so forth. Those folks, you absolutely had to
>>>> keep out of the planning stage of the project, or they'd trash you to
>>>> their management and often succeed in killing the effort.
>>>>
>>>> There were also folks who wanted to swoop in once the project was on
>>>> rails and steal the credit. There was even a select demographic that
>>>> habitually did both.
>>>>
>>>> When IBM had its near-death experience in 1992, all those folks were
>>>> gone, which was great, but so of course were the lush budgets, which
>>>> wasn't that great. My time at IBM was like the perfect 21-year
>>>> vacation--I was excited to start and excited to leave (as well as scared).
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>> It's interesting that none of the giant tube companies were long-term
>>> successful in semiconductors. Garage shops killed GE, RCA, Motorola,
>>> Sylvania, and many others.
>>
>> the semiconductor division of Motorola became ON semiconductor in 1999, they are still a 30000 employee company ...
>
> Sort of like HP spinning off Agilent spinning off Keysight. Management
> couldn't keep too many things in their heads at once.
>
>
>
That's the classical problem with conglomerates.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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From: pcdhSpam...@electrooptical.net (Phil Hobbs)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
Date: Sun, 22 May 2022 15:35:05 -0400
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 by: Phil Hobbs - Sun, 22 May 2022 19:35 UTC

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2022 10:58:45 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:28:54 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:38:24 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>>>> Oh, lots of people are reflexively hostile to new or unconventional
>>>>> ideas. Those personalities poison brainstorming sessions.
>>>>
>>>> For those of us who haven't experienced poisoned brainstorming sessions,
>>>> describe the 'hostility'.
>>
>>> Some people, especially ones with grey hair, immediately find fault
>>> with ideas instead of riffing on them. That intimidates some
>>> contributors, especially young ones. Sometimes they have sufficient
>>> gravity that they kill a promising discussion.
>>
>> Swift fault analysis isn't hostility, it is effective argument.
>
> It is hostility and it kills ideas in their infancy. "Argument" says
> it all. Right and wrong is a zero-sum game, or usually less than zero.

There's a bit of a semantic thicket here. I don't expect to agree with
w3 about much of anything, but here's a possibly-useful point:
unfortunately, popular discourse has lost the distinction between an
argument and a quarrel.

Properly speaking, an argument is a connected line of reasoning, by
intention valid, that attempts to establish some proposition.

It has to be able to withstand challenges to its validity and its
premises, delivered without animosity.

Arguing in that sense is great fun and leads to improved understanding
on everybody's part--maybe you get convinced, or maybe you don't, but in
any case it challenges you to clarify your ideas and articulate them
better. It's a win either way, and oh, by the way, it's terrific fun
when done well.

Quarrelling, on the other hand, is a lose--it convinces no one, it
isn't fun, it hardens attitudes, and it leaves bad feelings.

W3 overlooks the key idea-generating process ahead of the rational
arguments, but the eventual winnowing-out process does need to occur at
some point.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sun, 22 May 2022 23:49 UTC

On Sun, 22 May 2022 15:35:05 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 10:58:45 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:28:54 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 20:38:24 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Oh, lots of people are reflexively hostile to new or unconventional
>>>>>> ideas. Those personalities poison brainstorming sessions.
>>>>>
>>>>> For those of us who haven't experienced poisoned brainstorming sessions,
>>>>> describe the 'hostility'.
>>>
>>>> Some people, especially ones with grey hair, immediately find fault
>>>> with ideas instead of riffing on them. That intimidates some
>>>> contributors, especially young ones. Sometimes they have sufficient
>>>> gravity that they kill a promising discussion.
>>>
>>> Swift fault analysis isn't hostility, it is effective argument.
>>
>> It is hostility and it kills ideas in their infancy. "Argument" says
>> it all. Right and wrong is a zero-sum game, or usually less than zero.
>
>There's a bit of a semantic thicket here. I don't expect to agree with
>w3 about much of anything, but here's a possibly-useful point:
>unfortunately, popular discourse has lost the distinction between an
>argument and a quarrel.
>
>Properly speaking, an argument is a connected line of reasoning, by
>intention valid, that attempts to establish some proposition.
>
>It has to be able to withstand challenges to its validity and its
>premises, delivered without animosity.
>
>Arguing in that sense is great fun and leads to improved understanding
>on everybody's part--maybe you get convinced, or maybe you don't, but in
>any case it challenges you to clarify your ideas and articulate them
>better. It's a win either way, and oh, by the way, it's terrific fun
>when done well.
>
>Quarrelling, on the other hand, is a lose--it convinces no one, it
>isn't fun, it hardens attitudes, and it leaves bad feelings.
>
>W3 overlooks the key idea-generating process ahead of the rational
>arguments, but the eventual winnowing-out process does need to occur at
>some point.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

Arguing, to me, implies a classic debate style, where the objective of
every player is to be right and to prove their opponents wrong. It's
not quarreling but is still emotional competition... the goal being to
win.

Brainstorming is a team-less sport played for fun, where the objective
is to invent ideas together.

Later on, when a few cool ideas have evolved, is the time for
winnowing and serious engineering design.

Not many people are comfortable or competant doing both.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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 by: whit3rd - Mon, 23 May 2022 00:14 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:49:27 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

> Arguing, to me, implies a classic debate style, where the objective of
> every player is to be right and to prove their opponents wrong. It's
> not quarreling but is still emotional competition... the goal being to
> win.

The Plato-era 'classic' works on argument call that 'gotta-win' variant
sophistry, and refuted the validity of sophistical arguments while supporting
logical arguments. Debate is contrivance, a game lawyers play in
their effort to become better advocates; it isn't a productive
exercise, nor does it attempt truth-seeking.

> Brainstorming is a team-less sport played for fun, where the objective
> is to invent ideas together.

The psychology faculty taught me otherwise; the domination of group thinking by
loud voices was hurting productivity, and they built, and tested,
formal rules for brainstorming as a technical fix for that flaw.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainstorming>

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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 by: Don Y - Mon, 23 May 2022 02:28 UTC

On 5/19/2022 12:24 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:03:55 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> torsdag den 19. maj 2022 kl. 16.36.23 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:58:33 -0000 (UTC), Keegan Major
>
>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas. Their career path is more
>> McDonalds than electronic design.
>
> Again with the goofy personality theories! Everyone is hostile to ideas
> for a few minutes in the evening, when it's time to sleep.
>
> That's normal, and has nothing to do with a career path.

That's *cranky*. I have little patience for distractions (of any kind)
when I'm over tired (and focused on getting things in order so I can
*rest*) or "overloaded" -- and need to get things off my plate so I can
concentrate on something "new".

> No sane conscious mind is 'hostile to ideas' in any more general sense; that
> would be pathological, like being hostile to one's own body parts.

People aren't hostile to ideas (JL sees *everything* as some aspect of
hostility; an entirely passive-aggressive outlook on life).

But, people can be resistant to the *consequences* of ideas. Direct or
otherwise.

NIH figures big in engineering. Folks always want to think their PAST
accomplishment is somehow the epitome of thinking on that subject.
This is likely some reflection on their own ego as well as a
manifestation of "laziness" -- they aren't really interested in solving
a problem again, even if *better*!

And, engineering is a field where one is quickly obsolete. Especially
if too narrow a focus in your endeavors.

I had a stick-in-the-mud fight tooth-and-nail against replacing
HIS decade-old analog control system with a digital one. Despite
the fact that customers weren't buying it anymore AND sales of
the "controlled equipment" (7 figures) were being lost because of
this "antiquated offering".

Another old-timer fought to preserve a part numbering system that,
ages ago (when fewer parts were in inventory) would allow him to
fabricate a "close approximation" to a desired part number
using a paper cheat sheet he kept in his wallet. ("And what do we
do when you're on vacation? Or, RETIRE??!")

Another *principal* argued that developers should use octal
notation to specify *opcodes* (!) using a similar "pocket assembler".
("Um, you know, there are tools that eliminate the need for doing
this sort of thing. Just like there are tools that allow us to
travel great distances without wearing out our SHOES!")

Or, clinging to old ideas because they were patent worthy -- ten
years ago! <rolls eyes> Despite the fact that your competitors have
all found BETTER ways to do the same thing!

All examples of the "that's how we USED to do it" mindset.
("I *built* this company using that technique!" "Yeah,
and it hasn't *grown* in years!")

All examples of people keeping their companies tied to the
past and closing off opportunities to advance.

I find email to be the single most effective tool in the design
process:
- It is self-documenting.
- It supports participants at widely different locations/timezones
- It allows the recipients time to digest the material presented.
- It allows them time to formulate and revise their response.
I know many folks who are lousy "thinking on their feet".
But, given time, have tremendously valuable insights.
- It is non-confrontational. Face to face *meetings* (not a
one-on-one by the water cooler) have undercurrents, especially
in small companies where folks may have agendas or jockey
to get in the boss's good favor or risk "bucking the system".
- It inherently dampens any "unbridled enthusiasm" that may
be based in emotion and not reason.
- No "voice" can overpower a conversation.
- There's no "audience"; come as you are!
- There's no implied (polite society) need to respond to every
utterance. You can just let an idea die, "gracefully".
- There's no issue of "face"
- The Cc: list can change from one message to the next. To
bring someone into the conversation, you just have to add
their name to the Cc/Bcc line.
- Participants can drop out of the conversation at will
(imagine getting up and excusing yourself from a meeting
and NOT being noticed for doing so!)
- You can adjust your recipients to subsets of the group
without offending those not involved *or* distracting
from their ongoing conversations.
- You can cut-and-paste bits of the conversation into your
design specification/requirements document/manual using
words that others have already chosen

The biggest downside to email is a consequence of all of
these features: the elapsed time involved. But, if you
think you can "create on demand" or "within a specific
timeframe", you are likely going to get only incremental
changes to ideas. It takes time to stew on issues before
you can formulate GOOD solutions.

[I find the shower to be the best "facilitator"; no visual
or audible distractions, comfortable warmth, etc. I'm
free to "just imagine" solutions without having to
deal with other people, pen&paper, etc.]

But, if you're just working on small/simple problems,
you can likely hammer out *a* solution in short order.

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Mon, 23 May 2022 03:49 UTC

On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:28:39 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

>On 5/19/2022 12:24 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:03:55 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>>> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> torsdag den 19. maj 2022 kl. 16.36.23 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:58:33 -0000 (UTC), Keegan Major
>>
>>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas. Their career path is more
>>> McDonalds than electronic design.
>>
>> Again with the goofy personality theories! Everyone is hostile to ideas
>> for a few minutes in the evening, when it's time to sleep.
>>
>> That's normal, and has nothing to do with a career path.
>
>That's *cranky*. I have little patience for distractions (of any kind)
>when I'm over tired (and focused on getting things in order so I can
>*rest*) or "overloaded" -- and need to get things off my plate so I can
>concentrate on something "new".
>
>> No sane conscious mind is 'hostile to ideas' in any more general sense; that
>> would be pathological, like being hostile to one's own body parts.
>
>People aren't hostile to ideas (JL sees *everything* as some aspect of
>hostility; an entirely passive-aggressive outlook on life).

Not at all. I'm cheerful and helpful. But there are a lot of nasty
people here who don't design electronics.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Error correction in short packet.

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 by: boB - Mon, 23 May 2022 05:54 UTC

On Sun, 22 May 2022 20:49:08 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

>On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:28:39 -0700, Don Y
><blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On 5/19/2022 12:24 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:03:55 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>>>> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> torsdag den 19. maj 2022 kl. 16.36.23 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:58:33 -0000 (UTC), Keegan Major
>>>
>>>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas. Their career path is more
>>>> McDonalds than electronic design.
>>>
>>> Again with the goofy personality theories! Everyone is hostile to ideas
>>> for a few minutes in the evening, when it's time to sleep.
>>>
>>> That's normal, and has nothing to do with a career path.
>>
>>That's *cranky*. I have little patience for distractions (of any kind)
>>when I'm over tired (and focused on getting things in order so I can
>>*rest*) or "overloaded" -- and need to get things off my plate so I can
>>concentrate on something "new".
>>
>>> No sane conscious mind is 'hostile to ideas' in any more general sense; that
>>> would be pathological, like being hostile to one's own body parts.
>>
>>People aren't hostile to ideas (JL sees *everything* as some aspect of
>>hostility; an entirely passive-aggressive outlook on life).
>
>Not at all. I'm cheerful and helpful. But there are a lot of nasty
>people here who don't design electronics.

You sure got that right !

boB

Re: Error correction in short packet.

<e44n8ht2uf0rq5n7k69n4n71soeslfk375@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97516&group=sci.electronics.design#97516

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From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
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Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 06:49:39 -0700
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Mon, 23 May 2022 13:49 UTC

On Sun, 22 May 2022 22:54:04 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 May 2022 20:49:08 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:28:39 -0700, Don Y
>><blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On 5/19/2022 12:24 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:03:55 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>>>>> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> torsdag den 19. maj 2022 kl. 16.36.23 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:58:33 -0000 (UTC), Keegan Major
>>>>
>>>>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas. Their career path is more
>>>>> McDonalds than electronic design.
>>>>
>>>> Again with the goofy personality theories! Everyone is hostile to ideas
>>>> for a few minutes in the evening, when it's time to sleep.
>>>>
>>>> That's normal, and has nothing to do with a career path.
>>>
>>>That's *cranky*. I have little patience for distractions (of any kind)
>>>when I'm over tired (and focused on getting things in order so I can
>>>*rest*) or "overloaded" -- and need to get things off my plate so I can
>>>concentrate on something "new".
>>>
>>>> No sane conscious mind is 'hostile to ideas' in any more general sense; that
>>>> would be pathological, like being hostile to one's own body parts.
>>>
>>>People aren't hostile to ideas (JL sees *everything* as some aspect of
>>>hostility; an entirely passive-aggressive outlook on life).
>>
>>Not at all. I'm cheerful and helpful. But there are a lot of nasty
>>people here who don't design electronics.
>
>You sure got that right !
>
>boB
>
>
>

Playing with circuits is fun. Endless ritual squabbling is boring and
bad for you. So why do they do it here?

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Error correction in short packet.

<k8lo8htfvianf19o1rr61act1h9bcqkf7h@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97563&group=sci.electronics.design#97563

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From: boB...@K7IQ.com (boB)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
Date: Mon, 23 May 2022 21:00:41 -0700
Message-ID: <k8lo8htfvianf19o1rr61act1h9bcqkf7h@4ax.com>
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 by: boB - Tue, 24 May 2022 04:00 UTC

On Mon, 23 May 2022 06:49:39 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:

>On Sun, 22 May 2022 22:54:04 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 20:49:08 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:28:39 -0700, Don Y
>>><blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 5/19/2022 12:24 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:03:55 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>>>>>> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> torsdag den 19. maj 2022 kl. 16.36.23 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:58:33 -0000 (UTC), Keegan Major
>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas. Their career path is more
>>>>>> McDonalds than electronic design.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again with the goofy personality theories! Everyone is hostile to ideas
>>>>> for a few minutes in the evening, when it's time to sleep.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's normal, and has nothing to do with a career path.
>>>>
>>>>That's *cranky*. I have little patience for distractions (of any kind)
>>>>when I'm over tired (and focused on getting things in order so I can
>>>>*rest*) or "overloaded" -- and need to get things off my plate so I can
>>>>concentrate on something "new".
>>>>
>>>>> No sane conscious mind is 'hostile to ideas' in any more general sense; that
>>>>> would be pathological, like being hostile to one's own body parts.
>>>>
>>>>People aren't hostile to ideas (JL sees *everything* as some aspect of
>>>>hostility; an entirely passive-aggressive outlook on life).
>>>
>>>Not at all. I'm cheerful and helpful. But there are a lot of nasty
>>>people here who don't design electronics.
>>
>>You sure got that right !
>>
>>boB
>>
>>
>>
>
>Playing with circuits is fun. Endless ritual squabbling is boring and
>bad for you. So why do they do it here?

Not sure ?

This may be a place where they can "identify" somehow. Kind of like
flat earthers and those who follow an alternative existence.

They feel that they "belong" somehow.

If I were a psychologist, I might be able to find a name for SED.

boB

Re: Error correction in short packet.

<qhpp8h9bk0284vs12t1q8cl9feks3hgbul@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97598&group=sci.electronics.design#97598

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NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 09:08:19 -0500
From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
Date: Tue, 24 May 2022 07:08:20 -0700
Message-ID: <qhpp8h9bk0284vs12t1q8cl9feks3hgbul@4ax.com>
References: <t650re$76f$1@dont-email.me> <t65etp$boo$1@gioia.aioe.org> <nalc8ht3kb9euvbqgskvknklakc0oakkpb@4ax.com> <69e5ec0a-ba86-4e49-aafb-f8a65998ef4cn@googlegroups.com> <ksmc8hpu9r3f9d9l6i0id6p1888oajvc59@4ax.com> <1ec74d6b-3824-460c-bc0c-cd58098cb8aan@googlegroups.com> <t6erh0$tf0$1@dont-email.me> <2t0m8h1im2ghl2p4dacfhbrk7j4ofh31gi@4ax.com> <2b8m8hpf05es1qcak6ms159al80io32tpq@4ax.com> <e44n8ht2uf0rq5n7k69n4n71soeslfk375@4ax.com> <k8lo8htfvianf19o1rr61act1h9bcqkf7h@4ax.com>
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Tue, 24 May 2022 14:08 UTC

On Mon, 23 May 2022 21:00:41 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 May 2022 06:49:39 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 22:54:04 -0700, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 20:49:08 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 22 May 2022 19:28:39 -0700, Don Y
>>>><blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 5/19/2022 12:24 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>>>>> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 8:03:55 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 07:40:45 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
>>>>>>> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> torsdag den 19. maj 2022 kl. 16.36.23 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 12:58:33 -0000 (UTC), Keegan Major
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, some people are hostile to ideas. Their career path is more
>>>>>>> McDonalds than electronic design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again with the goofy personality theories! Everyone is hostile to ideas
>>>>>> for a few minutes in the evening, when it's time to sleep.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's normal, and has nothing to do with a career path.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's *cranky*. I have little patience for distractions (of any kind)
>>>>>when I'm over tired (and focused on getting things in order so I can
>>>>>*rest*) or "overloaded" -- and need to get things off my plate so I can
>>>>>concentrate on something "new".
>>>>>
>>>>>> No sane conscious mind is 'hostile to ideas' in any more general sense; that
>>>>>> would be pathological, like being hostile to one's own body parts.
>>>>>
>>>>>People aren't hostile to ideas (JL sees *everything* as some aspect of
>>>>>hostility; an entirely passive-aggressive outlook on life).
>>>>
>>>>Not at all. I'm cheerful and helpful. But there are a lot of nasty
>>>>people here who don't design electronics.
>>>
>>>You sure got that right !
>>>
>>>boB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Playing with circuits is fun. Endless ritual squabbling is boring and
>>bad for you. So why do they do it here?
>
>Not sure ?
>
>This may be a place where they can "identify" somehow. Kind of like
>flat earthers and those who follow an alternative existence.
>
>They feel that they "belong" somehow.

The subject here is electronics. The old hens don't belong.

>
>If I were a psychologist, I might be able to find a name for SED.
>
>boB
>
>

If people want to discuss their feelings, they should go to Facebook
or Grindr.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Error correction in short packet.

<t6p90r$iuu$3@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97767&group=sci.electronics.design#97767

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From: Soph...@invalid.org (John S)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
Date: Thu, 26 May 2022 20:20:21 -0500
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 by: John S - Fri, 27 May 2022 01:20 UTC

On 5/20/2022 1:48 AM, David Eather wrote:
> On 19/05/2022 8:46 am, John Larkin wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 08:06:25 +1000, David Eather
>> <eatREMOVEher@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19/05/2022 2:32 am, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:54:32 +0100, Clive Arthur
>>>> <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all
>>>>>
>>>>> I have serial data in 14 byte packets on which I'd like to detect and
>>>>> correct errors.  Two bit errors would be nice.  I can put 2 extra EDC
>>>>> bytes on the end to make a 16 byte packet.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have the resources for Reed-Solomon.  I could use a 16 bit
>>>>> CRC,
>>>>> these are easy to generate with a small/moderate LUT.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the past, I've used a CRC16 for single bit error detection and
>>>>> correction on a longer packet, but I didn't do the error detection
>>>>> part.
>>>>>    Errors were very rare, time was not critical, and I understand that
>>>>> this was simply done by changing each message bit in turn then
>>>>> recalculating the CRC till it all worked out.  That's far to slow
>>>>> for my
>>>>> current needs.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I'm lucky, a 16 bit CRC might be able to detect and correct 2 bit
>>>>> errors in 14 bytes (112 * 111 possibilities?), but is there a way of
>>>>> quickly finding out which bits are wrong?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or maybe a completely different approach? This has to be done on the
>>>>> fly, and multi-kilobyte LUTs or thousands of clock cycles are out
>>>>> of the
>>>>> question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send it three times and compare.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> you didn't read the 2 byte limit he said he had? The answer is it can't
>>> be done with the constraints he has specified.
>>
>> He specified a packet length limit, but didn't say he couldn't send it
>> multiple times.
>>
>> I'm trying to be helpful, you are trying to be obnoxious. Do whatever
>> you are best at.
>>
>
> I'm being helpful - if he had such a limit on packet size he probably
> has a limit on how much he can send. What he wants is not possible with
> the limits he has described. It is helpful to let him know he has to
> reassess his limits rather than just assume he can do what you want -
> and there are more efficient ways than just send it three times.
>
> you were just being noise.

And you left your filter at home, eh?

Re: Error correction in short packet.

<16f2f26e667660b9$230$3317172$c2665aeb@news.newsdemon.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97786&group=sci.electronics.design#97786

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Date: Fri, 27 May 2022 21:22:48 +1000
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 by: David Eather - Fri, 27 May 2022 11:22 UTC

On 27/05/2022 11:20 am, John S wrote:
> On 5/20/2022 1:48 AM, David Eather wrote:
>> On 19/05/2022 8:46 am, John Larkin wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 May 2022 08:06:25 +1000, David Eather
>>> <eatREMOVEher@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19/05/2022 2:32 am, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 18 May 2022 16:54:32 +0100, Clive Arthur
>>>>> <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have serial data in 14 byte packets on which I'd like to detect and
>>>>>> correct errors.  Two bit errors would be nice.  I can put 2 extra EDC
>>>>>> bytes on the end to make a 16 byte packet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have the resources for Reed-Solomon.  I could use a 16 bit
>>>>>> CRC,
>>>>>> these are easy to generate with a small/moderate LUT.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the past, I've used a CRC16 for single bit error detection and
>>>>>> correction on a longer packet, but I didn't do the error detection
>>>>>> part.
>>>>>>    Errors were very rare, time was not critical, and I understand
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> this was simply done by changing each message bit in turn then
>>>>>> recalculating the CRC till it all worked out.  That's far to slow
>>>>>> for my
>>>>>> current needs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I'm lucky, a 16 bit CRC might be able to detect and correct 2 bit
>>>>>> errors in 14 bytes (112 * 111 possibilities?), but is there a way of
>>>>>> quickly finding out which bits are wrong?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or maybe a completely different approach? This has to be done on the
>>>>>> fly, and multi-kilobyte LUTs or thousands of clock cycles are out
>>>>>> of the
>>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send it three times and compare.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> you didn't read the 2 byte limit he said he had? The answer is it can't
>>>> be done with the constraints he has specified.
>>>
>>> He specified a packet length limit, but didn't say he couldn't send it
>>> multiple times.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to be helpful, you are trying to be obnoxious. Do whatever
>>> you are best at.
>>>
>>
>> I'm being helpful - if he had such a limit on packet size he probably
>> has a limit on how much he can send. What he wants is not possible
>> with the limits he has described. It is helpful to let him know he has
>> to reassess his limits rather than just assume he can do what you want
>> - and there are more efficient ways than just send it three times.
>>
>> you were just being noise.
>
> And you left your filter at home, eh?

the same as JL did

Re: Error correction in short packet.

<t70704$14mt$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97897&group=sci.electronics.design#97897

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From: '''newsp...@nonad.co.uk (Martin Brown)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Error correction in short packet.
Date: Sun, 29 May 2022 17:28:51 +0100
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 by: Martin Brown - Sun, 29 May 2022 16:28 UTC

On 20/05/2022 18:46, whit3rd wrote:
> On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 3:31:23 PM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>
>> Yes, I work more by instinct and simulation. But my world is largely
>> nonlinear, where the math is basically impossible.
>
> Identifying a problem as nonlinear IS math; it's obviously useful info,
> and the only deficiency is in the non-utility of common approximations.
> The math is not impossible, just... more difficult.

Quadratics are non-linear and taught as high school algebra. Cubics and
their closed form solutions are seldom taught even at degree level.

A few other non-linear closed form solutions are known up to quartics.
After that it is what Pade approximations are designed for.

They cause pure mathematicians to cross themselves and run out of the
room. That aside on a good day you can get a workable and insightful
approximations for real problems that are good enough for engineering.

Their first serious use was in taming highly divergent and hard won
series expansions for high Mach number turbulent flow in aerospace.

The crucial point is that they are neither provably right nor exact but
over some moderate range of your choosing can be made good enough for
all practical purposes (or used as a guess for NR/Halley refinement).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

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