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tech / sci.electronics.design / Re: Tesla is fast

SubjectAuthor
* Tesla is fastRichD
+* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
|+* Re: Tesla is fastLasse Langwadt Christensen
||+* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
|||+* Re: Tesla is fastLasse Langwadt Christensen
||||+- Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||+- Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||+* Re: Tesla is fastClifford Heath
|||||`- Re: Tesla is fastLasse Langwadt Christensen
||||`* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
|||| `* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  +* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |+* Re: Tesla is fastLasse Langwadt Christensen
||||  ||+- Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  ||`* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  || `* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  ||  `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  ||   `* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  ||    `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  ||     `* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  ||      `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  ||       `* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  ||        `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  ||         `* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  ||          +- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  ||          `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
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||||  ||            +- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  ||            `- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |`* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  | +- Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  | `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |  `* Re: Tesla is fastwhit3rd
||||  |   +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |   |`- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |   `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |    `* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |     `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      +* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |      |`* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      | `* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |  `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |   `* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  |      |    `* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  |      |     `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      |`* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | +* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |      |      | |`* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
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||||  |      |      | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastrbowman
||||  |      |      | | | | +- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | | | |`- Re: Tesla is fastEdward Hernandez
||||  |      |      | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastrbowman
||||  |      |      | | | | |+* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | | | ||`- Re: Tesla is fastEdward Hernandez
||||  |      |      | | | | |+* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |      |      | | | | ||`- Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastrbowman
||||  |      |      | | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |      |      | | | | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
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||||  |      |      | | | | | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |+- Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
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||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |           `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
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||||  |      |      | | | | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |`- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | +- Re: Tesla is fastFlyguy
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |`* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | | |`- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | | `* Re: Tesla is fastJasen Betts
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |  +- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |  +* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |  |`* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |  | +* Re: Tesla is fastrbowman
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |  | |`- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |  | `- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | |  `- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | +- Re: Tesla is fastFlyguy
||||  |      |      | | | | | | | `* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | | | | | | +- Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  |      |      | | | | | | `* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||||  |      |      | | | | | `- Re: Tesla is fastFlyguy
||||  |      |      | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |      |      | | | | +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
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||||  |      |      | | | | `- Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | | | `* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | | `* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      | +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      | `* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Doe
||||  |      |      +* Re: Tesla is fastEd Lee
||||  |      |      +* Re: Tesla is fastFlyguy
||||  |      |      +* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  |      |      +- Re: Tesla is fastRichD
||||  |      |      `* Re: Tesla is fastRicky
||||  |      `* Re: Tesla is fastke...@kjwdesigns.com
||||  +* Re: Tesla is fastClifford Heath
||||  `- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
|||+* Re: Tesla is fastCydrome Leader
|||`- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
||+* Re: Tesla is fastamdx
||`- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
|+* Re: Tesla is fastDecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
|+- Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
|+* Re: Tesla is fastRichD
|`- Re: Tesla is fastRichD
+* Re: Tesla is fastCydrome Leader
+* Re: Tesla is fastjlarkin
+* Re: Tesla is fastDecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
+* Re: Tesla is fastbitrex
+* Re: Tesla is fastCommander Kinsey
+* Re: Tesla is fastjlarkin
`* Re: Tesla is fastJohn Larkin

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Re: Tesla is fast

<op.1miz5crjmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97389&group=sci.electronics.design#97389

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Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
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From: CK1...@nospam.com (Commander Kinsey)
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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 21 May 2022 16:01 UTC

On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:23:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 1:25:13 AM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
>> On 05/15/2022 02:22 PM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> > On Sunday, 15 May 2022 at 00:04:22 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> > ...
>> >>> Then there is the issue that you are only talking about purchase price, not the life cycle cost. That's the talk of an ignoramus.
>> >> If you want to go that route, electric cars have that annoying habit of needing a new battery.
>> >
>> > No they don't - no more than conventional cars need new engines.
>> >
>> > ...
>> >
>> > kw
>> >
>> My 1986 F150 doesn't need a new engine. Do you really think a battery is
>> going to last 36 years?
>
> Do they need to? I don't know many vehicles that last 36 years and when they do, it's because they aren't driven all that much. The US average is 14,000 miles per year. I you drove the average this vehicle would have 504,000 miles. Not impossible, but very unusual for an ICE.

When did ICE become "Internal Combustion Engine"? When I were a lad, "ICE" on a classified ad meant "In Car Entertainment", as in the car I'm selling has a stereo.

Perhaps.... we should just stop using acronyms?

> Trucks tend to be made more robust than cars and get much worse fuel mileage.

A truck is 50 tonnes and I doubt they will ever use batteries.

> So let's talk passenger vehicles, which is the real topic of conversation. For a well built BEV,

Is that Beverly? Can you actually speak English?

> there's no reason why they can't last like an ICE. The batteries in most BEVs are warrantied for 100,000 or more miles. Do you believe they are going to drop out of the car shortly after that?

You won't get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.

And I bet that "warranty" only covers the first user.

> Why do so many people just want to drop sound bites rather than actually discussing a topic?

We're realists.

Re: Tesla is fast

<jesi5tFeqk1U1@mid.individual.net>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97391&group=sci.electronics.design#97391

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From: bow...@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 10:26:37 -0600
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 by: rbowman - Sat, 21 May 2022 16:26 UTC

On 05/21/2022 08:15 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:16:23 +0100, Ricky
> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:58:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:09:18 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> As Lithium runs out, the prices will skyrocket.
>>> >
>>> > Nonsense, but of course someone selling you an investment
>>> opportunity won't tell
>>> > you that.
>>> >
>>> > Lithium is mined from dried-up sea beds, because some of the dried
>>> salts have useful
>>> > concentrations of that element There's lots of those, and the most
>>> economic are being
>>> > mined now, while the next-most-economic will be mined in a decade.
>>> The metal isn't
>>> > rare, and the price will disappoint investors who buy today at a
>>> big premium.
>>> I quote er.... you, with "the most economic are being mined now" -
>>> it's gonna get very hard soon to mine it, so the price will shoot up.
>>
>> How can one person be so stupid? When stupidity was being handed out,
>> I think he took the ration of a hundred others.
>
> Whoosh! So again.... "the most economic are being mined now", so what
> does that make the others..... er.... let me see.... LESS economic.

The question is how less economic.

https://www.lithiumamericas.com/usa/thacker-pass/

They better be careful not to dig up any indigenous remains. There have
already been a number of suits and so forth. Interestingly Miranda Du,
the judge who is shooting down most of the attempts, is an Obama appointee.

Re: Tesla is fast

<op.1mi2ymnkmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=97392&group=sci.electronics.design#97392

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 21 May 2022 17:02 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:26:37 +0100, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On 05/21/2022 08:15 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:16:23 +0100, Ricky
>> <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:58:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:09:18 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> As Lithium runs out, the prices will skyrocket.
>>>> >
>>>> > Nonsense, but of course someone selling you an investment
>>>> opportunity won't tell
>>>> > you that.
>>>> >
>>>> > Lithium is mined from dried-up sea beds, because some of the dried
>>>> salts have useful
>>>> > concentrations of that element There's lots of those, and the most
>>>> economic are being
>>>> > mined now, while the next-most-economic will be mined in a decade.
>>>> The metal isn't
>>>> > rare, and the price will disappoint investors who buy today at a
>>>> big premium.
>>>> I quote er.... you, with "the most economic are being mined now" -
>>>> it's gonna get very hard soon to mine it, so the price will shoot up.
>>>
>>> How can one person be so stupid? When stupidity was being handed out,
>>> I think he took the ration of a hundred others.
>>
>> Whoosh! So again.... "the most economic are being mined now", so what
>> does that make the others..... er.... let me see.... LESS economic.
>
> The question is how less economic.

The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element. Batteries need to be made of something else. Preferably something that doesn't quadruple the cost of the vehicle.

> https://www.lithiumamericas.com/usa/thacker-pass/
>
> They better be careful not to dig up any indigenous remains. There have
> already been a number of suits and so forth. Interestingly Miranda Du,
> the judge who is shooting down most of the attempts, is an Obama appointee.

Obama Bin Laden? ROFL!

Re: Tesla is fast

<a1b76f93-11f4-4eb0-aa30-af075faf8081n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: langw...@fonz.dk (Lasse Langwadt Christensen)
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 by: Lasse Langwadt Chris - Sat, 21 May 2022 17:35 UTC

lørdag den 21. maj 2022 kl. 19.02.46 UTC+2 skrev Commander Kinsey:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:26:37 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
>
> > On 05/21/2022 08:15 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >> On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:16:23 +0100, Ricky
> >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:58:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:09:18 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> As Lithium runs out, the prices will skyrocket.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Nonsense, but of course someone selling you an investment
> >>>> opportunity won't tell
> >>>> > you that.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Lithium is mined from dried-up sea beds, because some of the dried
> >>>> salts have useful
> >>>> > concentrations of that element There's lots of those, and the most
> >>>> economic are being
> >>>> > mined now, while the next-most-economic will be mined in a decade.
> >>>> The metal isn't
> >>>> > rare, and the price will disappoint investors who buy today at a
> >>>> big premium.
> >>>> I quote er.... you, with "the most economic are being mined now" -
> >>>> it's gonna get very hard soon to mine it, so the price will shoot up..
> >>>
> >>> How can one person be so stupid? When stupidity was being handed out,
> >>> I think he took the ration of a hundred others.
> >>
> >> Whoosh! So again.... "the most economic are being mined now", so what
> >> does that make the others..... er.... let me see.... LESS economic.
> >
> > The question is how less economic.
> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element.

Lithium is not a rare element ....

Re: Tesla is fast

<op.1mi46dncmvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 21 May 2022 17:50 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 18:35:10 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

> lørdag den 21. maj 2022 kl. 19.02.46 UTC+2 skrev Commander Kinsey:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:26:37 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On 05/21/2022 08:15 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:16:23 +0100, Ricky
>> >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:58:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:09:18 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >> As Lithium runs out, the prices will skyrocket.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Nonsense, but of course someone selling you an investment
>> >>>> opportunity won't tell
>> >>>> > you that.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Lithium is mined from dried-up sea beds, because some of the dried
>> >>>> salts have useful
>> >>>> > concentrations of that element There's lots of those, and the most
>> >>>> economic are being
>> >>>> > mined now, while the next-most-economic will be mined in a decade.
>> >>>> The metal isn't
>> >>>> > rare, and the price will disappoint investors who buy today at a
>> >>>> big premium.
>> >>>> I quote er.... you, with "the most economic are being mined now" -
>> >>>> it's gonna get very hard soon to mine it, so the price will shoot up.
>> >>>
>> >>> How can one person be so stupid? When stupidity was being handed out,
>> >>> I think he took the ration of a hundred others.
>> >>
>> >> Whoosh! So again.... "the most economic are being mined now", so what
>> >> does that make the others..... er.... let me see.... LESS economic..
>> >
>> > The question is how less economic.
>> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element.
>
> Lithium is not a rare element ....

The approximate amount of lithium on earth is between 30 and 90 million tons.

Cars require 20 million tons. Rather close.... so can we really mine two thirds of it, and then recycle 100% of that forever more?

Re: Tesla is fast

<9lai8h1l90i664vdstb3lh0krsf3v7eneq@4ax.com>

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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sat, 21 May 2022 18:14 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:35:10 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>lørdag den 21. maj 2022 kl. 19.02.46 UTC+2 skrev Commander Kinsey:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:26:37 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On 05/21/2022 08:15 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:16:23 +0100, Ricky
>> >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:58:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:09:18 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >> As Lithium runs out, the prices will skyrocket.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Nonsense, but of course someone selling you an investment
>> >>>> opportunity won't tell
>> >>>> > you that.
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > Lithium is mined from dried-up sea beds, because some of the dried
>> >>>> salts have useful
>> >>>> > concentrations of that element There's lots of those, and the most
>> >>>> economic are being
>> >>>> > mined now, while the next-most-economic will be mined in a decade.
>> >>>> The metal isn't
>> >>>> > rare, and the price will disappoint investors who buy today at a
>> >>>> big premium.
>> >>>> I quote er.... you, with "the most economic are being mined now" -
>> >>>> it's gonna get very hard soon to mine it, so the price will shoot up.
>> >>>
>> >>> How can one person be so stupid? When stupidity was being handed out,
>> >>> I think he took the ration of a hundred others.
>> >>
>> >> Whoosh! So again.... "the most economic are being mined now", so what
>> >> does that make the others..... er.... let me see.... LESS economic.
>> >
>> > The question is how less economic.
>> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element.
>
>Lithium is not a rare element ....
>

I've always thought it strange and wonderful that elements are so
nicely concentrated in heaps for us. I could imagine a planet where
everything is uniformly mixed and things like gold, uranium, iron,
copper, aluminum, lithium, rare earths, and helium are hard to
separate.

Natural gas and oil are nice too.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Tesla is fast

<op.1mi6rj2amvhs6z@ryzen.lan>

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 by: Commander Kinsey - Sat, 21 May 2022 18:24 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 19:14:40 +0100, <jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 May 2022 10:35:10 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
> <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
>> lørdag den 21. maj 2022 kl. 19.02.46 UTC+2 skrev Commander Kinsey:
>>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 17:26:37 +0100, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > On 05/21/2022 08:15 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> >> On Mon, 16 May 2022 16:16:23 +0100, Ricky
>>> >> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:58:52 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>>> >>>> On Sun, 15 May 2022 10:09:18 +0100, whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> > On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> >> As Lithium runs out, the prices will skyrocket.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Nonsense, but of course someone selling you an investment
>>> >>>> opportunity won't tell
>>> >>>> > you that.
>>> >>>> >
>>> >>>> > Lithium is mined from dried-up sea beds, because some of the dried
>>> >>>> salts have useful
>>> >>>> > concentrations of that element There's lots of those, and the most
>>> >>>> economic are being
>>> >>>> > mined now, while the next-most-economic will be mined in a decade.
>>> >>>> The metal isn't
>>> >>>> > rare, and the price will disappoint investors who buy today at a
>>> >>>> big premium.
>>> >>>> I quote er.... you, with "the most economic are being mined now" -
>>> >>>> it's gonna get very hard soon to mine it, so the price will shoot up.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> How can one person be so stupid? When stupidity was being handed out,
>>> >>> I think he took the ration of a hundred others.
>>> >>
>>> >> Whoosh! So again.... "the most economic are being mined now", so what
>>> >> does that make the others..... er.... let me see.... LESS economic.
>>> >
>>> > The question is how less economic.
>>> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element.
>>
>> Lithium is not a rare element ....
>
> I've always thought it strange and wonderful that elements are so
> nicely concentrated in heaps for us. I could imagine a planet where
> everything is uniformly mixed and things like gold, uranium, iron,
> copper, aluminum, lithium, rare earths, and helium are hard to
> separate.
>
> Natural gas and oil are nice too.

I guess it depends if the planet was formed from a big glob or from several different kinds of globs that smashed together.

Apparently some elements are found in most concentrated form in landfill sites.

Re: Tesla is fast

<0b9d1d18-b676-43d5-93c4-fe3c71766790n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Sat, 21 May 2022 19:13 UTC

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:50:36 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 18:35:10 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:

> > Lithium is not a rare element ....

> The approximate amount of lithium on earth is between 30 and 90 million tons.

Huh? In elemental composition of the Earth's crust, Li is twenty-fifth most common.
See here, for a more complete breakdown

<https://www.quantumscape.com/resources/blog/the-advantages-of-lithium-metal-anodes/>

The only way to make a finding of 90 million tons is to ignore every rock that hasn't
been declared part of a current Lithium mining claim, i.e. assume only today's lithium mines
contain all the Earth's lithium element. That's a world-size error.

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 12:35:16 -0700
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sat, 21 May 2022 19:35 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:13:19 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:50:36 AM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 18:35:10 +0100, Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
>> > Lithium is not a rare element ....
>
>> The approximate amount of lithium on earth is between 30 and 90 million tons.
>
>Huh? In elemental composition of the Earth's crust, Li is twenty-fifth most common.
>See here, for a more complete breakdown
>
><https://www.quantumscape.com/resources/blog/the-advantages-of-lithium-metal-anodes/>
>
>The only way to make a finding of 90 million tons is to ignore every rock that hasn't
>been declared part of a current Lithium mining claim, i.e. assume only today's lithium mines
>contain all the Earth's lithium element. That's a world-size error.

The problem isn't abundance, it's concentration.

There's lots of lithium in the ocean, 0.2 PPM, too expensive to
extract.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: kei...@kjwdesigns.com (ke...@kjwdesigns.com)
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 by: ke...@kjwdesigns.com - Sat, 21 May 2022 21:57 UTC

On Friday, 20 May 2022 at 14:17:08 UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 18, 2022 at 11:44:43 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 19, 2022 at 1:38:46 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at 5:50:55 PM UTC-7, ke...@designs.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, 17 May 2022 at 12:10:26 UTC-7, John Doe wrote:
> > > > > Using a jillion tiny cells makes a difference because if any of those cells
> > > > > fail, the whole car explodes and kills the driver.
> > > > That is not true. The car is very unlikely to explode if a single cell fails. Even if multiple cells fail an explosion is also extremely unlikely.
> > > >
> > > > From the NTHSA report - "Lithium-ion Battery Safety Issues for Electric and Plug-in Hybrid Vehicles".
> > > >
> > > > "Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels."
> > > > https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/12848-lithiumionsafetyhybrids_101217-v3-tag.pdf
> > > >
> > > > A cell can overheat under exceptional circumstances but a small cell may in actual fact be safer than larger ones as the energy of a single cell failure might be contained within its own steel container and not affect the rest of the battery to the point of failure. The fuse or other disconnect for the cell would electrically isolate the failed cell from the rest of the battery. If the cell breaches its own enclosure it could spread the failure to other cells.
> > > >
> > > > kw
> > > They can "anticipate" until the cows come home. What that boils down to is an uneducated guess. Until you have decades of data to analyze you are just blowing smoke. Just look at airline accidents; the B747 had decades of flight experience when TWA flight 800 exploded. And these planes undergo far more rigorous testing and evaluation than EVs do.
> > You would seem to be blowing smoke as much as anyone. In the case of TWA flight 800, a fatal airliner accident due to design or construction issues is a very infrequent thing. These causes are much easier to minimize failure rates than the operational issues.
> >
> > The bottom line is lithium-ion batteries are proving to be very safe in BEVs. The failures rates are comparable to the failure rates of fossil fueled vehicles which do burst into flame spontaneously as well. We are simply less worried by the relatively infrequent incidents which are dwarfed by the accident rates of automobiles caused by the operators. BEV issues get a lot of visibility, but are actually less likely.
> >
> > You didn't anticipate that, did you?
> >
> > --
> >
> > Rick C.
> >
> > -++-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> > -++-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
> No comparison whatsoever - the average age of ICE cars is much older than EVs, and fires are much more frequent in old cars.
....
There is some validity to that but fires as a result of accident are actually more likely with newer cars.

Hyundai and Kia have had to recently recall close to half a million recently manufactured cars in the US because of the risk of the cars spontaneously catching fire when turned off - they even recommend parking them outside.

kw

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: kei...@kjwdesigns.com (ke...@kjwdesigns.com)
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 by: ke...@kjwdesigns.com - Sat, 21 May 2022 22:02 UTC

On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 09:02:01 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
....
> > there's no reason why they can't last like an ICE. The batteries in most BEVs are warrantied for 100,000 or more miles. Do you believe they are going to drop out of the car shortly after that?
>
> You won't get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.
>

I guess my 4 1/2 year old Tesla is going to expire soon then.
> And I bet that "warranty" only covers the first user.

No - it's transferable.

kw

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
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 by: ke...@kjwdesigns.com - Sat, 21 May 2022 22:09 UTC

On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 10:02:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
....
> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element. Batteries need to be made of something else. Preferably something that doesn't quadruple the cost of the vehicle.
....

The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.

Luckily we have over 150 years worth of lithium and we will probably come up with other chemistries that don't require it.

The other alkali metals are good candidates for use instead of lithium. Sodium in particular is plentiful and very easy to get.

Many EV car companies are already using Lithium iron phosphate cathodes to avoid the need for cobalt and nickel.

kw

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Sat, 21 May 2022 22:47 UTC

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:35:25 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 12:13:19 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:

> >The only way to make a finding of 90 million tons is to ignore every rock that hasn't
> >been declared part of a current Lithium mining claim, i.e. assume only today's lithium mines
> >contain all the Earth's lithium element. That's a world-size error.

> The problem isn't abundance, it's concentration.
>
> There's lots of lithium in the ocean, 0.2 PPM, too expensive to
> extract.

Yeah, the ocean is a dilute ore for lots of things. There's lots of ancient dead seas, though,
where lots of concentration happened, for free, eons ago. The 'economic' place is always the
closest to mass transport and cheapest to extract. Other sites for mining that
aren't worth developing this year, will be ready when mine #1 empties.
Next year, a few dollars per ton of price hike won't bankrupt anyone.

Re: Tesla is fast

<rraj8h5c0li135k8jqpstmi4gvjd7cc0b7@4ax.com>

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From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 20:21:06 -0700
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sun, 22 May 2022 03:21 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT), "ke...@kjwdesigns.com"
<keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 10:02:46 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>...
>> The amount of Lithium required to run every single car in the world is enormous. It's a rare element. Batteries need to be made of something else. Preferably something that doesn't quadruple the cost of the vehicle.
>...
>
>The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.

But "proven reserves" have been increasing linearly for about 100
years now. And lots of places haven't been explored.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Sun, 22 May 2022 06:48 UTC

On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:21:14 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT), "ke...@kjwdesigns.com"
> <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

> >The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.

> But "proven reserves" have been increasing linearly for about 100
> years now. And lots of places haven't been explored.

The 'proven reserves' are a match to expected consumption: no one looks for new well sites
that won't be needed for thirty years. That linear increase has nothing
to do with supply, only demand.

Would you wait thirty years for YOUR paycheck?

They're scraping ocean bottoms at fantastic depths already; the best cheap extraction
sites are going if not gone, and tar sands are the new definition of 'economic' (that
definition isn't working out well). Peak oil is perhaps behind us already.

Re: Tesla is fast

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From: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com
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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sun, 22 May 2022 14:10 UTC

On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:48:47 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:21:14 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 May 2022 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT), "ke...@kjwdesigns.com"
>> <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
>
>> >The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
>
>> But "proven reserves" have been increasing linearly for about 100
>> years now. And lots of places haven't been explored.
>
>The 'proven reserves' are a match to expected consumption: no one looks for new well sites
>that won't be needed for thirty years.

Exactly. When we need more oil, we drill and get it.

That linear increase has nothing
>to do with supply, only demand.
>
>Would you wait thirty years for YOUR paycheck?
>
>They're scraping ocean bottoms at fantastic depths already; the best cheap extraction
>sites are going if not gone, and tar sands are the new definition of 'economic' (that
>definition isn't working out well). Peak oil is perhaps behind us already.

Peak Oil has been predicted as imminent since the 1800's. The
predictions have been, as they say, "premature"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicting_the_timing_of_peak_oil#No_peak_oil

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: edward.m...@gmail.com (Ed Lee)
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 by: Ed Lee - Sun, 22 May 2022 14:47 UTC

> You won't get that from a battery. No battery of any chemistry is of much use after 5 years, used a lot or not.

My 10 years old Leaf battery is still 60% usable after 80,000 miles. Mine is outside the "no battery" range.

Re: Tesla is fast

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 by: Ed Lee - Sun, 22 May 2022 16:03 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:48:30 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 20:21:14 UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >>
> > >The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
> > But "proven reserves" have been increasing linearly for about 100
> > years now. And lots of places haven't been explored.
> ...
>
> This hardly looks linear:
>
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/236657/global-crude-oil-reserves-since-1990/
>
> It seems that it saturated in 2010.

Proven reserve is a function of oil price. That chart was drawn when oil price was around $70. At $110 oil, there are lots more oil reserve now.

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: edward.m...@gmail.com (Ed Lee)
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 by: Ed Lee - Sun, 22 May 2022 16:22 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 9:08:20 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 09:03:25 UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
> ...
> > > This hardly looks linear:
> > >
> > > https://www.statista.com/statistics/236657/global-crude-oil-reserves-since-1990/
> > >
> > > It seems that it saturated in 2010.
> > Proven reserve is a function of oil price. That chart was drawn when oil price was around $70. At $110 oil, there are lots more oil reserve now.
> Doesn't seem to be much correlation:
>
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/262860/uk-brent-crude-oil-price-changes-since-1976/
>
> kw

Take time for oil countries/companies to update their reserves. The recent price increase is relatively short term. For example, Canada's oil sands are proven at $80 to $90.

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
From: whit...@gmail.com (whit3rd)
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 by: whit3rd - Sun, 22 May 2022 16:38 UTC

On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 7:10:29 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2022 23:48:47 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:21:14 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> >> On Sat, 21 May 2022 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT), "ke...@kjwdesigns.com"
> >> <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
> >
> >> But "proven reserves" have been increasing linearly for about 100
> >> years now. And lots of places haven't been explored.
> >
> >The 'proven reserves' are a match to expected consumption: no one looks for new well sites
> >that won't be needed for thirty years.

> Exactly. When we need more oil, we drill and get it.

Not exactly. The shale oil and tar sands weren't economic until the world oil
prices rose. We just redefined 'proven reserves' to include new stuff.

> That linear increase has nothing
> >to do with supply, only demand.

> Peak Oil has been predicted as imminent since the 1800's.

Meaningless, since there was no world market for oil in the 1800s; depletion
would only have been meaningful for a single oil field, not for a planet. " Oil
exploration" was a phrase that would have conjured images of whaling boats.

> predictions have been, as they say, "premature"

In the 1800's? Yes, certainly. Today? Depletion of cod in fisheries, of
the cedars of Lebanon, of pink ivory, of mammoths, etcetera are all historic
(or prehistoric) fact. Oil has less growth capacity than those resources.
The depletion predictions of the modern era were (circa 1980) 'one or two centuries',
and we don't know that they were premature. Those predictions did
NOT use 'known reserves' as indicators.

So, when exactly WERE predictions made, that weren't as irrelevant as
those from the 1800s, nor as untested as those from decades ago?

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicting_the_timing_of_peak_oil#No_peak_oil

That article clearly shows (Hubbard, 1956) a model that still seems plausible,
and not at all 'premature'. Didn't you read the thing you cited?

Re: Tesla is fast

<03qk8h1l0d7ra42ibdp8c3toj5sp3g25f0@4ax.com>

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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sun, 22 May 2022 16:49 UTC

On Sun, 22 May 2022 08:48:25 -0700 (PDT), "ke...@kjwdesigns.com"
<keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 20:21:14 UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>
>> >The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
>> But "proven reserves" have been increasing linearly for about 100
>> years now. And lots of places haven't been explored.
>...
>
>This hardly looks linear:
>
>https://www.statista.com/statistics/236657/global-crude-oil-reserves-since-1990/
>
>It seems that it saturated in 2010.
>
>kw

This is cool:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Ratio_World_Proved_Oil_Reserves_-_Production_1980-2011.png

Reserves in years of consumption are going UP!

We only have 47 years until we run out of oil. By 2050, we'll be 60
years from running out!

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Tesla is fast

<3dqk8hp55e61755k6gjjbqr13l8knvn1ls@4ax.com>

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 by: jlar...@highlandsniptechnology.com - Sun, 22 May 2022 16:50 UTC

On Sun, 22 May 2022 09:03:20 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 8:48:30 AM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, 21 May 2022 at 20:21:14 UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>> >>
>> > >The amount of oil required to run every single car in the world is enormous. Oil is rare. We only have about 47 years left at current consumption rates.
>> > But "proven reserves" have been increasing linearly for about 100
>> > years now. And lots of places haven't been explored.
>> ...
>>
>> This hardly looks linear:
>>
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/236657/global-crude-oil-reserves-since-1990/
>>
>> It seems that it saturated in 2010.
>
>Proven reserve is a function of oil price. That chart was drawn when oil price was around $70. At $110 oil, there are lots more oil reserve now.

There's a lot of area and depth left to explore.

--

Anybody can count to one.

- Robert Widlar

Re: Tesla is fast

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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
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 by: ke...@kjwdesigns.com - Sun, 22 May 2022 17:02 UTC

On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 09:50:38 UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
....
> >Proven reserve is a function of oil price. That chart was drawn when oil price was around $70. At $110 oil, there are lots more oil reserve now.
> There's a lot of area and depth left to explore.
> --
....

Yes, but the same arguments apply to the reserves of Lithium as there are at least a few hundred billion tons either as deposits or in the oceans.

As the technology of cars and mining evolves and the financial incentives stimulate exploration and development more is likely to be discovered or alternatives found. Probably enough for billions of cars.

kw

Re: Tesla is fast

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From: jer...@nospam.please (Jeroen Belleman)
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Subject: Re: Tesla is fast
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 by: Jeroen Belleman - Sun, 22 May 2022 18:06 UTC

On 2022-05-22 19:02, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 09:50:38 UTC-7,
> jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote: ...
>>> Proven reserve is a function of oil price. That chart was drawn
>>> when oil price was around $70. At $110 oil, there are lots more
>>> oil reserve now.
>> There's a lot of area and depth left to explore. --
> ...
>
> Yes, but the same arguments apply to the reserves of Lithium as there
> are at least a few hundred billion tons either as deposits or in the
> oceans.
>
> As the technology of cars and mining evolves and the financial
> incentives stimulate exploration and development more is likely to be
> discovered or alternatives found. Probably enough for billions of
> cars.
>
> kw

Billions of cars, ah yes. We have to provide for all these driverless
cars that will soon clog our roads.

Jeroen Belleman

Re: Tesla is fast

<jf08vbF5nldU1@mid.individual.net>

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 by: rbowman - Mon, 23 May 2022 02:14 UTC

On 05/22/2022 11:02 AM, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 22 May 2022 at 09:50:38 UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> ...
>>> Proven reserve is a function of oil price. That chart was drawn when oil price was around $70. At $110 oil, there are lots more oil reserve now.
>> There's a lot of area and depth left to explore.
>> --
> ...
>
> Yes, but the same arguments apply to the reserves of Lithium as there are at least a few hundred billion tons either as deposits or in the oceans.
>
> As the technology of cars and mining evolves and the financial incentives stimulate exploration and development more is likely to be discovered or alternatives found. Probably enough for billions of cars.
>
> kw
>

Will there be oil enough for billions of tires or to create the
plastics that are a large component of modern cars? Or are you trying to
put bandaids on an unsustainable system to eke out a few more decades?

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