On 1/18/2024 9:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 3:17 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 1:42:46 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own gravel bikes.
>>> Are there any?
>>>
>>
>> I'm building one now - just as a lark. I have an older Giant XTC SE2
>> mountain bike with a rigid Kinesis fork that I only used for racing a
>> local bicycle club "mountain bike night" on their weekly road TT
>> course (3rd place three years in a row, woot woot!). I had almost
>> enough parts laying around to convert it to "gravel" - CX
>> wheels/tires, 10SP Sram Force shifters/derailleurs, drop bars -
>> basically all I need are bigger chainrings (I have plenty of
>> chainrings, just not a 50/34 that fits a 94mm BCD crank) and a set of
>> cantilevers that will reach the rim track on a 700C wheel. I sourced
>> some cheap long-reach V-brake style brakes from Amazon that seem to
>> work fine, Chain rings are due in next week. I think I'm going to have
>> to spring for a new stem though the 100 works when I'm on the tops,
>> but I'm really stretched out on the hoods.. Oh, need new bar tape too.
>
> You're not having trouble with insufficient cable pull with the V-brakes?
>

Not with this set-up. Sram seems to have a pull ratio that is more
compatable with V-brakes

https://www.amazon.com/Chadwick-Adjustable-Aluminum-Installation-Lightweight/dp/B0BVZPHW1J

I expected I would have to play around with the cable adjustment and pad
spacers to get it right, but I was pleasantly surprised when both front
and rear set-up acceptably the first time and only needed minor cable
adjustments to get them dialed in. Caveat - I haven't taken this on the
road yet, but they feel quite good in my basement.

FWIW it's similar to the set-up on my crossbike - Sram Force with an old
set of Deore XT V-brakes on the rear.

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/18/2024 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 7:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 16:47:49 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/18/2024 4:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/18/2024 2:57 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>> On 1/18/2024 12:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the
>>>>>>> premier
>>>>>>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy
>>>>>>> and a lot
>>>>>>> of hike a bike!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits.
>>>>>> But I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel
>>>>>> racing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1%
>>>>>> of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel racing has a far
>>>>>> smaller clientele.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm still miffed about my fair city voting to spend $1M on a new
>>>>> Pickle Ball facility at the high school.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know which city it is, but I strongly support your view.
>>>
>>> I appreciate that, but I'd imagine it's for wildly different reasons. I
>>> don't have a problem with them investing another $1M into the school
>>> system, just not for fucking pickleball.
>>>
>>> They need more investment in lower grade STEM, more teachers,
>>> hell...even more for (the lack of) arts in the high school.
>>>
>>> To the gist of this subthread, pickle ball appeals to such an incredible
>>> minority of students, it's probably more likely there was some collusion
>>> for a construction contract.
>>
>> Given that grade school is  the base on which all other learning is
>> founded I would have to believe that a million dollars could be far
>> better spent on improving facilities or teaching staff.
>
> CPS spends $30,000 per pupil per year. Its results are dismal overall
> and pathetic for black students. A million dollars in or out won't
> change the system of wasteful spending and unqualified unmotivated
> instructors.
>
> https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/stt2022/pdf/2023010IL8.pdf
>
> CPS = Chicago Public Schools

It's a significant amount for the haverhill public schools, that money
would pay for several teachers for several years.
--
Add xx to reply

On 1/19/2024 3:14 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Thu, 18 Jan 2024 12:15:22 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> ISTM gravel racing has a far smaller
>> clientele.
>>
>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>
> Does it? I haven't read much about gravel bikes in German press,
> neither local nor national. Our very fashion focused national news
> magazine "Der Spiegel" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel>
> had a feature about these in 2019.
> <https://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/canyon-grail-al-gravelbike-fuer-einsteiger-fotostrecke-168435.html>
>
> But they write features about almost every fashion they expect or want
> to create, including the Segway

The "press time" for gravel racing I was speaking about was in bicycling
publications, both print and online.

I suspect that publications are always looking for something "New!" to
talk about. And I suppose this is one of the ways new fashions become
trendy and (briefly) popular.

Again, I'm not against gravel bikes themselves. I'm just wondering about
what seems like a sudden increase in coverage of a racing niche.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/19/2024 2:14 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Thu, 18 Jan 2024 12:15:22 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the premier
>>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy and a lot
>>> of hike a bike!
>>
>> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits. But
>> I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel racing.
>
> I think the major benefit of the gravel bike fashion is that it doesn't
> leave the race bike space. It's just another variant of what was called
> randonneur, before.
>
> <https://cycletraveloverload.com/all-about-randonneur-bikes-ultimate-list-of-the-best-rando-bikes/>
>
> My Peugeot PR 60/L from 1978 was based on a real race bike frame, but it
> had fenders, nevertheless, and it came with StVZO approved lights
> powered by a generator.
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg>
>
>
> These bicycles were sold as training bikes
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/peugeot/index.htm>
>
> - Trimm- und Trainingsrad "Gentleman"
> (bike for trimming and training "Gentleman"
>
> but we used them as a randonneur, "Reiserad", like for long tours
> through France
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/wolfgang-strobl/fotos/Frankreich/loire/1.JPG>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/wolfgang-strobl/fotos/Frankreich/loire/loire3b.PNG>
>
>
>> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1% of
>> cyclists ever actually racing?
>
> Doesn't matter. How many people actually perform downhill mountain
> biking, jumping over stones, trees and hurdles, like horses? People
> bought MTBs for riding on flat, but dirty forest roads. Most of them
> switched to motor powered MTB, nowadays. Especially those people who
> actually visit hills. Who actually visit hills NOW, that is.
>
> Like most sports, professional world class cycling competitions have
> degenerated into a competition to see who has the best sports medicine
> specialists. But even weak utility cyclists like me can learn a lot
> about effective cycling by analyzing how bicycle racing has progressed
> since it was invented. The trick is to pick out what is transferable to
> and usefull for utility cycing and ignore all the competition nonsense.
>
>
>> ISTM gravel racing has a far smaller
>> clientele.
>>
>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>
> Does it? I haven't read much about gravel bikes in German press,
> neither local nor national. Our very fashion focused national news
> magazine "Der Spiegel" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel>
> had a feature about these in 2019.
> <https://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/canyon-grail-al-gravelbike-fuer-einsteiger-fotostrecke-168435.html>
>
> But they write features about almost every fashion they expect or want
> to create, including the Segway
>
> <https://www.spiegel.de/auto/segway-wird-bald-nicht-mehr-produziert-ein-unfreundlicher-nachruf-a-74f334c1-fd3f-47a5-a153-40046a1c499b>
> That's from 2020.

> "cycling competitions have degenerated into a competition to see who has the best sports medicine
specialists."

+1
Quite a perspicacious eye you have.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/19/2024 6:12 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 9:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 8:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2024 1:48 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/18/2024 12:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens
>>>>> own gravel bikes. Are there any?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Beats me.
>>>>
>>>> Sort of a newish term with fuzzy-edged definition. I'm
>>>> still not clear about what is an is not a 'hybrid'
>>>> (stupid term IMHO).
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/lJxxph5pQEg?t=254  "They come up with
>>> new categories like Gravel Bikes. What is that?? A drop
>>> bar hybrid??"
>>>
>>>> At any rate my Raleigh three speed with 22mm tubs and
>>>> steel mudguards works fine on gravel. As did my
>>>> Pogliaghi with the same tires. And my fixie, ditto.  I'd
>>>> prefer pavement but where it's gravel or nothing, I just
>>>> ride it.
>>>
>>> I used to lead a lot of bike club rides, mostly using my
>>> touring bike. I occasionally got complaints that some of
>>> the ride was on (gasp!) gravel.
>>>
>>
>> Good enough for Gino Bartali on a race bike with race tires:
>>
>> https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb11572475/p5pb11572475.jpg
>>
>> https://bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/photo-galleries-images/racers-images/bartali-gino/1938-14-tappa-Bartali-sul-V.jpg
>>
>> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_tmCXlTvwjkY/TSewOCX5-AI/AAAAAAAABss/H5x11FJyBOg/s400/bartali%2B%25282%2529.jpg
>>
>> Good enough for me.
>
> "race tires" in Gino Bartali's time were very different that
> what are available today.

In what way?
https://products.roadbikereview.com/product/wheels/tires-tubular/veloflex/roubaix.html
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/19/2024 8:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/19/2024 3:14 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>> Am Thu, 18 Jan 2024 12:15:22 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>>
>>> ISTM gravel racing has a far smaller
>>> clientele.
>>>
>>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>>
>> Does it?  I haven't read much about gravel bikes in German
>> press,
>> neither local nor national. Our very fashion focused
>> national news
>> magazine "Der Spiegel"
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel>
>> had a feature about these in 2019.
>> <https://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/canyon-grail-al-gravelbike-fuer-einsteiger-fotostrecke-168435.html>
>>
>> But they write features about almost every fashion they
>> expect or want
>> to create, including the Segway
>
> The "press time" for gravel racing I was speaking about was
> in bicycling publications, both print and online.
>
> I suspect that publications are always looking for something
> "New!" to talk about. And I suppose this is one of the ways
> new fashions become trendy and (briefly) popular.
>
> Again, I'm not against gravel bikes themselves. I'm just
> wondering about what seems like a sudden increase in
> coverage of a racing niche.

>"always looking for something "New!" to talk about."

Every field, not merely bicycles. There's much truth in the
apocryphal salesman's pitch, "The crap we sold you last year
is no good. Here's the new model."

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 1:20:56 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/16/2024 3:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/16/2024 1:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 6:43:22 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I ride as a competent adult on normal roads. I've taught others to do
> >>> that, and I've been recognized for such work. The remarks I posted above
> >>> were not bragging. They were in response to claims that I didn't know
> >>> any more than the kiddie path tricycle rider.
> >>>
> >>> And sorry, but I'm not liberal enough to pretend that everybody's idea
> >>> on every subject is equally accurate. I believe that learning has value,
> >>> and that ignorant people are often just wrong. I'm surprised you
> >>> disagree.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> - Frank Krygowski
> >> Frank, the type of bike you ride and the equipment on it do not allow
> >> you you to say that you ride competently at any sort of speed. I am
> >> sure that you ride well enough in the speed regime that bike and
> >> components allow you, but making snide remarks about a recumbent that
> >> cab cruise at twice your speed is pretty ridiculous.
> >
> > Several points here: First, we have no indication that the Florida
> > tricycle rider can cruise significantly faster than I can, let alone at
> > twice my speed, on identical terrain.
> >
> > Second, most elements of competent riding barely change with the rider's
> > cruising speed, if they change at all. If a rider fails to control the
> > lane and gets right hooked, or fails to be visible and gets left
> > crossed, or makes a left turn from a right side bike lane, or fails to
> > anticipate a pedestrian stepping off a curb, or doesn't pay attention
> > and hits a huge pothole, or makes a dozen similar mistakes, going faster
> > will be no help at all.
> >
> > Third, since this is purportedly a _technical_ discussion group: What
> > about my bike and its components do you suppose will slow me down, and
> > (this is critical!) by how much?
> >
> > Admittedly, my bike is heavier than yours; but the difference matters
> > only when climbing, and the difference is only the increase in _total_
> > bike+rider weight. Rolling resistance matters a small bit, but
> > differences are slight. (I'm running Paselas; we can compare Crr from
> > drum tests, although those are known to be quite imperfect.)
> > Aerodynamics matter a little at your and my speeds, but we both know the
> > rider's aero drag dominates.
> >
> > My most frequent riding partner these days is something like 15 years
> > younger than me. He's the guy whose Alan was shown in photos I linked. I
> > still have to slow down so he can ride with me, and I often wait for him
> > at the top of long hills.
> >
> > Of course I'm much slower than I was 30 years ago; but you've proved
> > over and over that buying a snazzy new bike won't fix that.
> >
> > So, for the sake of "tech," how about enumerating the speed gains I'd
> > get from switching to whatever your "bike of the month" is this month?
> >
> Now now Frank,
> Let tommy figure out why his front derailleur keeps dropping to the
> small ring and why he can't get enough feedback from his bike to feel
> when his DI2 is shifting before we expect him to do a remote performance
> analysis on a bike he's never seen.
>
> --
> Add xx to reply

Frank, Flunky wants to kiss you because you lie nearly as much as he does. Cattrike has said what his average speed is and it is below the normal average speed of rides of a drop bar bike. So either you're telling us that you are incapable of riding 12 mph or you're stuck not remembering the plainly stated speed he rides at. Well, actually Flunky wants to kiss you under any circumstances.

On 1/19/2024 2:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 1:20:56 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 1/16/2024 3:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/16/2024 1:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 6:43:22 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I ride as a competent adult on normal roads. I've taught others to do
>>>>> that, and I've been recognized for such work. The remarks I posted above
>>>>> were not bragging. They were in response to claims that I didn't know
>>>>> any more than the kiddie path tricycle rider.
>>>>>
>>>>> And sorry, but I'm not liberal enough to pretend that everybody's idea
>>>>> on every subject is equally accurate. I believe that learning has value,
>>>>> and that ignorant people are often just wrong. I'm surprised you
>>>>> disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>> Frank, the type of bike you ride and the equipment on it do not allow
>>>> you you to say that you ride competently at any sort of speed. I am
>>>> sure that you ride well enough in the speed regime that bike and
>>>> components allow you, but making snide remarks about a recumbent that
>>>> cab cruise at twice your speed is pretty ridiculous.
>>>
>>> Several points here: First, we have no indication that the Florida
>>> tricycle rider can cruise significantly faster than I can, let alone at
>>> twice my speed, on identical terrain.
>>>
>>> Second, most elements of competent riding barely change with the rider's
>>> cruising speed, if they change at all. If a rider fails to control the
>>> lane and gets right hooked, or fails to be visible and gets left
>>> crossed, or makes a left turn from a right side bike lane, or fails to
>>> anticipate a pedestrian stepping off a curb, or doesn't pay attention
>>> and hits a huge pothole, or makes a dozen similar mistakes, going faster
>>> will be no help at all.
>>>
>>> Third, since this is purportedly a _technical_ discussion group: What
>>> about my bike and its components do you suppose will slow me down, and
>>> (this is critical!) by how much?
>>>
>>> Admittedly, my bike is heavier than yours; but the difference matters
>>> only when climbing, and the difference is only the increase in _total_
>>> bike+rider weight. Rolling resistance matters a small bit, but
>>> differences are slight. (I'm running Paselas; we can compare Crr from
>>> drum tests, although those are known to be quite imperfect.)
>>> Aerodynamics matter a little at your and my speeds, but we both know the
>>> rider's aero drag dominates.
>>>
>>> My most frequent riding partner these days is something like 15 years
>>> younger than me. He's the guy whose Alan was shown in photos I linked. I
>>> still have to slow down so he can ride with me, and I often wait for him
>>> at the top of long hills.
>>>
>>> Of course I'm much slower than I was 30 years ago; but you've proved
>>> over and over that buying a snazzy new bike won't fix that.
>>>
>>> So, for the sake of "tech," how about enumerating the speed gains I'd
>>> get from switching to whatever your "bike of the month" is this month?
>>>
>> Now now Frank,
>> Let tommy figure out why his front derailleur keeps dropping to the
>> small ring and why he can't get enough feedback from his bike to feel
>> when his DI2 is shifting before we expect him to do a remote performance
>> analysis on a bike he's never seen.
>>
>> --
>> Add xx to reply
>
> Frank, Flunky wants to kiss you because you lie nearly as much as he does. Cattrike has said what his average speed is and it is below the normal average speed of rides of a drop bar bike. So either you're telling us that you are incapable of riding 12 mph or you're stuck not remembering the plainly stated speed he rides at. Well, actually Flunky wants to kiss you under any circumstances.

So sparky, did you ever figure out why that front derailleur keeps
dropping the chain?
--
Add xx to reply

On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:02:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Not to mention that crippled people have ridden a Cattrike coast
>to coast which would have been impossible on a standard bike.

Amazing. Tom got something correct. Too bad he forgot to provide a
link to the story.

"Disabled cyclist pedals trike from coast to coast on spiritual
journey"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPY_VCjOJCQ> (2:41)

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 1/19/2024 2:35 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 1:20:56 PM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 1/16/2024 3:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/16/2024 1:02 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Frank, the type of bike you ride and the equipment on it do not allow
>>>> you you to say that you ride competently at any sort of speed. I am
>>>> sure that you ride well enough in the speed regime that bike and
>>>> components allow you, but making snide remarks about a recumbent that
>>>> cab cruise at twice your speed is pretty ridiculous.

Then Tom said:

>>>
>>> Cattrike has said what his average speed is and it is below the normal average speed of rides of a drop bar bike. So either you're telling us that you are incapable of riding 12 mph or you're stuck not remembering the plainly stated speed he rides at.

???

First, that recumbent can cruise at twice my speed; then that recumbent
is riding below the speed of a drop bar bike?

So it's simultaneously way faster _and_ way slower than me?

Tom, are you drunk again?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:02:49 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Not to mention that crippled people have ridden a Cattrike coast
>> to coast which would have been impossible on a standard bike.
>
> Amazing. Tom got something correct. Too bad he forgot to provide a
> link to the story.
>
> "Disabled cyclist pedals trike from coast to coast on spiritual
> journey"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPY_VCjOJCQ> (2:41)
>
>
One of the cycling folks on YouTube rode across America with his friend who
uses a hand cycle, I see them occasionally in Richmond Park tend to be
fairly well built chaps!

Roger Merriman