On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 10:19:50 PM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 7:33:25 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 10:11:18 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 22, 2021 at 6:44:17 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 3:31:45 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > > > On 9/21/21 12:04 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > > > I've got a lot of grading of quizzes to do, so I can only spare time for a side issue:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Monday, September 20, 2021 at 10:10:29 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > > > >> On 9/20/21 6:51 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > > >>> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 5:07:25 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
> > > > > >>>> On 9/15/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>>>> In short, neither of the two creatures that made Henry Gee so sure
> > > > > >>>>> were of much use as evidence for birds being dinosaurs.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> That evidence was at least good enough for Feduccia to change his mind about whether
> > > > > >>>> birds were coelurosaurs. Of course he settled that by then going on to
> > > > > >>>> claim that coelurosaurs weren't dinosaurs.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Did he now? I don't recall anyone claiming he went that far before, not even you.
> > > > > >>> The biggest clade I recall you claiming before was Maniraptora,
> > > > > >>> a far cry from all of coelurosauria. Can you give me a direct quote
> > > > > >>> to support your "Of course..." comment?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Yes, I probably should have said "maniraptorans", as in MANIAC.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are merely replacing one undocumented claim about Feduccia with a slightly earlier one
> > > > > > that you made this week or last week, with maniraptorans in place of coelurosaurs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then as now, your claim was unequivocal, and I suspected that you were editorializing
> > > > > > much more nuanced statements by Feduccia, which is all I recall seeing from him.
> > > > Your "presumably discussing" in the next paragraph is centered on the following post of mine:
> > > >
> > > > https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/UY2Hcee5Ez8/m/qHXXpRbgAgAJ
> > > > Re: A new shark-toothed theropod from Uzbekistan
> > > > Sep 15, 2021, 9:13:09 PM
> > > > > What I recall from the article we were presumably discussing is that
> > > > > Feduccia spends the first part of it showing that Deinonychus carpals
> > > > > were not homologous to Archaeopteryx carpals and thus the former is a
> > > > > dinosaur while the latter is not, and then pivoting to a claim that
> > > > > feathers on deinonychids show that they are birds, not dinosaurs.
> > > > Sorry, that won't do. You have made a blunder beginning with "Of course..." and
> > > > modified your claim. Now you have further modified your claim and are
> > > > now accusing Feduccia of a self-contradiction on a single detail involving
> > > > only a small subclade of Maniraptora.
> > > > > > This earlier one had to do with him having made the change of mind in _Auk_.
> > > > > > So you should have no trouble digging up an exact quote.
> > > >
> > > > > We have discussed this at length before. You might refresh your memory
> > > > > by looking at the article in question.
> > > > I have no memory of that article at all, and have no idea where to look for it.
> > > > It is YOU, obviously, who needs to refresh your memory of the article about which
> > > > you "held court" in talk.origins to a rapt audience + one notorious species
> > > > immutabilist for 50 posts before I came on the scene.
> > > >
> > > > Your recollection of those heady days now has had you narrowing a claim thus:
> > > >
> > > > Coelurosaurs -----> Maniraptorans ------> Deionychids
> > > > > Or you could check out a more
> > > > > recent Auk article
> > > > ... about which you don't even claim an inconsistency, like you originally
> > > > claimed Feduccia made about Maniraptora, which you ambitiously changed to coelurosaurs
> > > > before backpedaling to Maniraptora and now to deionychids.
> > > > >in which he shows to his satisfaction that
> > > > > Microraptor (and by extension other dromaeosaurs) is not a theropod:
> > > > > Feduccia A. 2013. Bird origins anew. Auk 130:1-12.
> > > > Sorry, I'm not going to pursue this red herring. I'm holding you to your latest allegation
> > > > (or some reasonable facsimile thereof) about that earlier Auk article.
> > > >
> > > > You've made allegations about Feduccia of a magnitude that would make you highly indignant
> > > > if a similar allegation were made of you. And he isn't even here to defend himself -- and it
> > > > also gets your dander up when I say something the least bit negative about an
> > > > absent person whom you don't have a bad opinion of, yourself.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Try behaving like a responsible adult and QUOTING something that backs up something along
> > > > the lines of one of your claims about the earlier article. How long does it take to dig up the article,
> > > > copy and paste one passage out of it and then another, incompatible passage?
> > > >
> > > > I don't think it would take much longer than it took me to dig up the the post that was
> > > > in the middle of our earlier discussion, figure out two of the three lines of documentation
> > > > that I posted up there, and to paste them in. And to save you time, I'm even telling you that the last
> > > > thirteen lines of text in it are all you need to look at.
> > > > Peter Nyikos
> > > > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
> > > > Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
> > > > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> > Erik, I suppose the following one-liner of yours could come under the "Dogmatism" rubric. :)
> > > Haven't we seen this movie before?
> > Never. Nothing at all like it. Have you ever seen Harshman's main group about which Feduccia
> > was allegedly saying inconsistent things evolved like this in the space of ONE WEEK?
> >
> > Dromaeosauridae ------> Coelurosauria -----> Maniraptora -----> Deinonychus
> >
> > You really need to get skeptical about your memory, Erik.
> >
> > To save readers trouble: Maniraptora is a subclade of Coelurosauria, while Dromaeosauridae is a subclade of Maniraptora, and Deinonychus is a genus in Dromaeosauridae. Apparently "deinonychids" is a synonym
> > for that one iconic genus, the sickle-clawed Deinonychus.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dromaeosauridae
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coelurosauria
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniraptora
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinonychus
> >
> > And, to save y'all even more trouble, what Harshman wrote a week ago, on that
> > other thread, was:
> >
> > "If you want specifics, the one I remember best is that in the middle of the article he went from claiming that dromaeosaurs couldn't possibly be related to birds to claiming that they couldn't possibly be dinosaurs."
> >
> > If that's what Harshman remembers best, I'd hate to think what he remembers worst. :-) :-(
> > Peter Nyikos
> > Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
> > Univ. of South Carolina -- standard disclaimer--
> > http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
> I confessI haven't been following this exchange closely. I have a general interest in avian phylogeny,
> althoug it isn't at the top of my list. But this isn't about avain phylogeny. What Feduccia thought about it,
> what, a decade ago?, wasn't very relevant then and is much less so now. If that isn't the topic,
> and you're more concerned with Harshman's account of Feduccia's thought, that has nothing to do
> with avian phylogeny, and I have zero interest. THe "movie" I spoke of referred to
> your presentation as Feducccia's bulldog. No interest there, either. I apologize if I distracted you
> from your purpose. Carry on.

https://academic.oup.com/sysbio/article/68/5/840/5315532?login=true

https://benthamopen.com/ABSTRACT/TOOENIJ-11-27

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=lt78DwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=feduccia+avian+fossils&ots=UDFTWI7r8g&sig=3YSHoe721uinrS5mhoO48U4lOLQ#v=onepage&q=feduccia%20avian%20fossils&f=false