On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:09:43 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/21/2021 8:32 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 9/20/2021 10:34 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 21:10:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 9/20/2021 7:13 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, 20 Sep 2021 10:38:06 -0500, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 9/20/2021 9:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/19/2021 9:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 9/19/2021 8:00 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 9/19/2021 3:31 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On 9/19/2021 1:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 9/19/2021 12:27 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/19/2021 11:03 AM, jbeattie wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 8:07:08 AM UTC-7,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <giant snip>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>  Trade and barter is almost impossible for the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> government to trace, hence the excise taxes that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> supported the US for so long. These were perfectly fine
> >>>>>>>>>>>> with the common citizen because those paying the excise
> >>>>>>>>>>>> taxes were "the rich" as they saw them. Jay appears to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> think that large corporations would be the one's
> >>>>>>>>>>>> involved
> >>>>>>>>>>>> in trade and barter which is silly. For their own good,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> corporations and large companies must of needs keep
> >>>>>>>>>>>> careful and accurate records which are entirely open to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the IRS.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> No I don't think corporations and large companies are
> >>>>>>>>>>>> involved in barter, although they are involved in trade
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and all sorts of non-cash exchanges.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My grandfather was the chief engineer running the power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> plant used in Salinas for what eventually became C & H
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sugar company. They grew and processed sugar cane into
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> sugar. It took a very long time for the IRS to grow to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the level a sophistication to be able to keep track of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the millions of small stores buying the sugar.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, the company paid taxes and few others did.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And once it left the retail store NO taxes were paid on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the trade and barter of it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> WTF? Although the history of sugar taxation is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> complex:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.jstor.org/stable/1882993?seq=9#metadata_info_tab_contents
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- I don't think there has been an excise tax on sugar
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for over 100 years. The IRS keeps track of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> millions
> >>>>>>>>>>>> of small stores buying the sugar by collecting income
> >>>>>>>>>>>> tax
> >>>>>>>>>>>> from those stores, and state regulators collect sales
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> income tax.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If someone borrows a cup of sugar or trades a cup of
> >>>>>>>>>>>> sugar for a box of Cheerios, there is probably no
> >>>>>>>>>>>> taxable
> >>>>>>>>>>>> event, but I don't know what the law is in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> California.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> But yes, transactions between retail purchasers
> >>>>>>>>>>>> generally
> >>>>>>>>>>>> escapes taxation -- and so do cash sales. Most
> >>>>>>>>>>>> garage-sellers aren't collecting or paying sales tax,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> IMO.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The problem with today's tax system is plainly shown in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that dress worn by AOC - "Tax the Rich" as if they
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't carry the brunt of taxation far above their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> earnings.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> When you "tax the rich" you invariably hurt the working
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> man as jobs disappear. Trump wasn't saving himself any
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> money by reducing the highest rate - he was making jobs
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for everyone and it showed.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> You tax everyone according to uniform rules,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> establishing
> >>>>>>>>>>>> marginal rates in some equitable way. Of course the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> rich are taxed. They always have been taxed. ÂÂ
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>>>>> highest marginal rates in the 1950s were staggering, and
> >>>>>>>>>>>> yet manufacturing and employment were at an all-time
> >>>>>>>>>>>> peak. There is often a low correlation between tax
> >>>>>>>>>>>> policy and corporate spending on workers or capital
> >>>>>>>>>>>> expenditures as we learned with the Reagan and Trump
> >>>>>>>>>>>> trickle-down tax give-aways.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- Jay Beattie.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Sugar duty changed into import quotas as a less visible
> >>>>>>>>>>> path to price supports for US producers. It's not always
> >>>>>>>>>>> about direct revenue; governance involves many goals,
> >>>>>>>>>>> policies, interests, hidden agendae etc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The 1960s marginal rates were draconian but... The
> >>>>>>>>>>> average
> >>>>>>>>>>> rate paid by any given percentile of income is roughly
> >>>>>>>>>>> similar. I say roughly because the present actual revenue
> >>>>>>>>>>> is highly progressive, moreso than in the immediate
> >>>>>>>>>>> postwar era.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Pages/js1287.aspx
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> (first in a web search. I'm sure there's something more
> >>>>>>>>>>> current but the trend on that chart is clear enough)
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> How can that be? The devil's in the all too
> >>>>>>>>>>> voluminous
> >>>>>>>>>>> details. Economists have made at least some headway
> >>>>>>>>>>> toward
> >>>>>>>>>>> broader flatter rates with fewer carve-outs, exceptions,
> >>>>>>>>>>> exemptions, incentives and such. This gives a more
> >>>>>>>>>>> efficient system and generally higher compliance, as
> >>>>>>>>>>> history shows. Tip of the hat to Art Laffer.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I don't see a flatter tax scheme as better. On a drive we
> >>>>>>>>>> make weekly, I pass by a brand new mansion. I'm guessing
> >>>>>>>>>> ~10,000 square feet on ~5 acres, surrounded by brand new
> >>>>>>>>>> stone fences about six feet high. The carriage house or
> >>>>>>>>>> servants' quarters or whatever is larger than our house.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> We also drive by plenty of scrappy little houses even more
> >>>>>>>>>> tiny than ours. It's hard to convince me that the
> >>>>>>>>>> owners of
> >>>>>>>>>> each should pay the same percentage of their income in
> >>>>>>>>>> taxes.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Helpful graphic:
> >>>>>>>>> https://files.taxfoundation.org/20200225094221/FF697-01.png
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> from
> >>>>>>>>> https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2020-update/
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> with the numerical data summarized.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Here's the very granular actual IRS data for the most
> >>>>>>>>> recent fully published period (2018).
> >>>>>>>>> https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/18in35tr.xls
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Zoom down to the bottom rows of columns AP~AR it's not at
> >>>>>>>>> all what you think it is.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Is the executive summary: "Rich people pay more taxes than
> >>>>>>>> poor people"? That's not news. You can't get blood out of a
> >>>>>>>> stone - that is, you can't get much money from people who
> >>>>>>>> don't have much money.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It requires a certain amount of money to run a government,
> >>>>>>>> maintain infrastructure, run a society. It takes a certain
> >>>>>>>> amount of taxation to provide paved roads, sewage systems,
> >>>>>>>> law enforcement, fire departments, public schools and all
> >>>>>>>> the rest.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> To me, it seems much more reasonable to get the next chunk
> >>>>>>>> of necessary money from the guy spending cash on a second
> >>>>>>>> yacht, instead of from a woman taking three different buses
> >>>>>>>> to get to her two jobs.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Were you commenting on some other country or historic era?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> That's precisely the system we have, and radically so. I
> >>>>>>> have not advocated anything, just noting that the top 1%
> >>>>>>> of taxpayers earn 21% of income and pay 39$ of income taxes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The top 50% by income pay 97% of income taxes; The lower
> >>>>>>> 50$ pay 3%.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, I understand that those with more currently pay more.
> >>>>>> I'd say the question is, do they pay _enough_ more?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The county engineer needs funds to pave local roads. Much of
> >>>>>> that money comes from gas tax. So the owner of a $50,000
> >>>>>> Lincoln hybrid getting 40 mpg pays less per mile than the
> >>>>>> guy who can afford only a 2000 Ford Taurus getting 18 mpg.
> >>>>>> That's just one example of how the system benefits the wealthy.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Based on my own experience, if a person is making just
> >>>>>> enough to get by, it's very hard to take advantage of
> >>>>>> economic opportunities - even basic ones like buying a more
> >>>>>> efficient car or insulating one's home - let alone to
> >>>>>> accumulate wealth.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But once people get a bit above water, so to speak, the
> >>>>>> smart ones can do economically productive things with any
> >>>>>> excess. The more they do that, the faster their wealth
> >>>>>> grows. But those who start out in a prosperous family get
> >>>>>> that excess from birth. It is much, much easier for them to
> >>>>>> climb the economic ladder.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And wherever the personal wealth excess comes from (smart &
> >>>>>> hard work, inheritance, dumb luck) once a person has a
> >>>>>> certain amount, it can accumulate rapidly, as an exponential
> >>>>>> function. So it's always WAY easier for a wealthy person,
> >>>>>> compared to a poor person, to afford a $10,000 bill.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Countries with less income and wealth disparity tend to be
> >>>>>> more stable, have lower crime rates, and have more
> >>>>>> contented citizenry. The U.S. is not one of them.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The world is chock full of examples of self destruction,
> >>>>> indolence and worse among the children of the rich.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Moreover the trend of late to accuse our culture of 'income
> >>>>> disparity' (which I'm not convinced is an actual problem.
> >>>>> More like a feature. YMMV) skips over county rent, food
> >>>>> stamps, free medical, many other transfers. Actual net
> >>>>> income and living standards do not reflect the headlines.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> At least we seem to agree that excessive regulation inhibits
> >>>>> upward mobility for those of meager means. I've been singing
> >>>>> that song for 50 years, during which time the regulatory
> >>>>> deck became more unfairly stacked against people of small
> >>>>> means who work and save.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The income tax structure is just as you wish- severely
> >>>>> punitive as income goes up. But the payroll tax, 14.5% on
> >>>>> the first dollar, is the reverse. Never hear any bleeding
> >>>>> hearts in favor of changing that, just my voice out here in
> >>>>> the wilderness.
> >>>>
> >>>> I've always wondered whether the graduated tax spiraling upward to
> >>>> penalize individuals that "had made a bit" wasn't due primarily to the
> >>>> fact that there are far more low paid voters then high paid voters.
> >>>
> >>> On the other hand, the highly paid voters and corporations can much more
> >>> easily afford to buy plenty of politicians.
> >>>
> >>> People taking the bus between their two minimum wage jobs don't
> >>> contribute much to election campaigns.
> >>
> >> The point was that poor folks vote and there are just so many more of
> >> them then the "upper" class. Thus it behoove a politician to cater to
> >> them. And they do; usually successfully.
> >>
> >> But you keep mentioning these po folks and their two minimum salary
> >> jobs but I know a considerable number of poorly educated blokes who
> >> through their own efforts found their way into high paying jobs.
> >>
> >> One chap, a particular friend, ran away from home when he was about 15
> >> years old and told me that his first job was a helper with a team that
> >> erected farm silos. He later worked as a laborer on drilling rigs and
> >> worked himself up until today he is now a "Drilling Manager" and has a
> >> standing offer from the national oil companies of both Malaysia and
> >> Vietnam for a position any time he wants to work. He is, by the way,
> >> on his third yacht (:-) floating around in the Philippines.
> >>
> >> And, he isn't unique, I've probably mentioned a school mate who, while
> >> most of us untamed heathens were down at the creek swimming was
> >> industrially mowing lawns. He accumulated sufficient funds that when
> >> he turned 16 and got his driver's license he bought a (second hand)
> >> auto.
> >>
> >> In fact I seem to remember you mentioning delivering newspapers and
> >> Jay has mentioned driving an ambulance.
> >>
> >
> > Not unlike my experience (albeit more successful) and I know a great
> > many men with similar experience. Tropes of 'doomed lower class peons'
> > are as overrated as English PhDs driving taxis (of whom I knew two).
> > Humans are a wildly diverse lot, such that one ought to pause when
> > making broad generalizations.
> Yes, and I know a very intelligent PhD biologist who has had to struggle
> with part time work for years. A young man in our neighborhood - eagle
> scout, valedictorian, bachelor's & masters degrees - can find work only
> as a stockboy. But I also have a dropout friend poor enough to ride his
> bike to soup giveaways. Anecdotes have limited value.
>
> Do you really think a voter living in a ghetto has as much influence as
> a voter living in a mansion? Why do wealthy people organize and attend
> Fund Raising Dinners? How many Fund Raising Dinners are held in ghettos?

Because you live in a hell hole doesn't mean the rest of the world is that way. In California, the illegal aliens that can't read or write and can't even speak English get work easily. Why don't you go out and buy a Tesla because you're so damned "woke"?