On 3/14/2022 10:55 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/13/2022 10:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/13/2022 9:10 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/13/2022 7:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 4:27:36 PM UTC-7, Roger
>>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 11:29:11 AM UTC-7, Roger
>>>>>> Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 9:33 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:55:47 PM UTC-6, John
>>>>>>>>> B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:45:36 -0000 (UTC), Roger
>>>>>>>>>> Merriman
>>>>>>>>>> <ro...@sarlet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/12/2022 8:46 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Older roads tend to be steeper more direct, horse
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and cart can be pushed up
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the inclines, the advent of the motor car and its
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lack of power, triggered
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the switch back climbs being built vs just direct
>>>>>>>>>>>>> up!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. Maybe 15 years ago on a solo ride, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> came across a road
>>>>>>>>>>>> that's well within my riding territory, but that
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd somehow never
>>>>>>>>>>>> ridden. On turning a bend, I saw a fearsome
>>>>>>>>>>>> looking climb - or rather, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> saw that the road must go up to the top of a very
>>>>>>>>>>>> tall ridge; the road
>>>>>>>>>>>> itself wasn't visible through the trees.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I very specifically thought "I'll be OK because it
>>>>>>>>>>>> can't possibly go
>>>>>>>>>>>> straight up. This is an old road, and a horse
>>>>>>>>>>>> pulling a wagon could
>>>>>>>>>>>> never make it straight up. There must be
>>>>>>>>>>>> switchbacks."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was wrong. It was straight up. I don't know the
>>>>>>>>>>>> grade, but I remember
>>>>>>>>>>>> being in my touring bike's granny gear and still
>>>>>>>>>>>> needing to stand to
>>>>>>>>>>>> complete the climb.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I guess my "horse and wagon" thinking was
>>>>>>>>>>>> backwards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> American maybe different, I assume native Americans
>>>>>>>>>>> had pack roads in
>>>>>>>>>>> places? But yes the old road ie few 1000 years old,
>>>>>>>>>>> often hug the ridge
>>>>>>>>>>> line and take a direct route, vs inclined routes
>>>>>>>>>>> that more modern roads
>>>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>>> I grew up in New Hampshire where certainly some
>>>>>>>>>> roads dated back to
>>>>>>>>>> the 1700's and I don't remember any "switchback"
>>>>>>>>>> roads. But equally
>>>>>>>>>> true roads didn't go up, or down, extreme
>>>>>>>>>> slopes.There is always a way
>>>>>>>>>> around although it may be longer (:-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for Native Americans, I doubt very much that
>>>>>>>>>> prior to the invasion
>>>>>>>>>> of the Europeans that had anything more then foot
>>>>>>>>>> paths as their only
>>>>>>>>>> "beast of burden" was a dog.
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There weren't horses, mules, donkeys, oxen, cows in
>>>>>>>>> North America before
>>>>>>>>> Europeans brought them over in the 1600s when they
>>>>>>>>> found America? Had
>>>>>>>>> Native Americans invented wheels before Europeans
>>>>>>>>> brought them over to North America?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There were none of those things.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We don't think of it that way, but it was still the
>>>>>>>> Stone Age in
>>>>>>>> pre-Columbian North America. Pre-Columbian Indians (or
>>>>>>>> whatever's the
>>>>>>>> correct term this week) had some limited use of
>>>>>>>> copper, but typically
>>>>>>>> their tools were stone, not (say) bronze. They
>>>>>>>> certainly had no iron or
>>>>>>>> steel. Also no wheels, etc. However, there were
>>>>>>>> societies and trading
>>>>>>>> systems that were advanced in other ways.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jared Diamond's book "Guns, Germs and Steel" is well
>>>>>>>> worth reading.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this the book that the PBS series was based upon that
>>>>>> claimed the
>>>>>> Columbus purposely infected the New World with old world
>>>>>> diseases?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Been a long time since I read the book, but I don’t
>>>>> recall purposely, after
>>>>> all they didn’t know what caused infection at
>>>>> that point
>>>>
>>>> They didn't know what caused it but they know about
>>>> "contagion" from before the 14th Century. But it would
>>>> have been ridiculous for anyone to believe that a disease
>>>> that did not show on people could infect others that had
>>>> never been exposed to it.
>>>>
>>>> So the problem wasn't that Columbus or any of his crew did
>>>> this or that but that the Woke people claimed it so.
>>>
>>> Please give a direct quote of a reputable historic source
>>> that says what you claimed.
>>>
>>> Or to be more blunt: Stop arguing against what you wish
>>> people said. Pay attention to what they've actually said.
>>> Take notes so you can tell the difference, because your
>>> "memory" isn't working.
>>>
>>
>> A University if not The University at Columbus Ohio.
>>
>> https://u.osu.edu/posterchildchristophercolumbus/villain-columbus/
>>
>>
>> Under the heading 'Villain Columbus' we read, "Thousands
>> of them were killed either by disease, by overworking or
>> by the hands of Columbus and his men."
>
> That is accurate. What Tom claimed is NOT accurate - that
> Columbus deliberately infected them, or that any
> knowledgeable person claimed that Columbus deliberately
> infected them.
>
> If Columbus had not "discovered" America, some other
> European would have done so. Even if that other European had
> magically perfect attitudes and practices according to the
> most liberal 21st century standards, European diseases would
> still have depopulated the continent.
>
> Diamond's book noted that the diseases traveled far faster
> than the Europeans, so that the first Europeans traveling
> many hundreds of miles inland found villages empty of all
> but dead bodies.
>
>

Yes, that's right. Overmuch is made of disease spread at
first significant contact but none of it was intentional.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971