On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:07:30 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>Yeah, right. The US stuck its face somewhere where it wasn't wanted,
>bullying a bunch of people who didn't want to be bullied, and they
>fought back until the US decided that they hadn't picked a weak enough
>victim and went off to look for somebody else to bully.
>
>If you want a war between the US and China you are so many kinds of
>stupid that there isn't a large enough number to count them.

This would presumably explain why one of the first things China did
after the end of the Vietnam war was to go to war with Vietnam.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:d342335a-11ae-4467-941e-05bf6922166an@googlegroups.com:

> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 2:35:32 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke
> wrote:
>> Taiwan you can write off--right now the US is still a
>> credible threat. 50 years from now it won't be.
>
>> We aren't going to be the big dog in the 21st century, we're
>> going to be a little tiny also-ran.
>
> Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if I
> prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American people to stand
> up, and do what is necessary, such as getting their educational
> system back in order, to prevent such a dire eventuality.
>
In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
Republican.)

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On 2021-11-23 2:50 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
> news:d342335a-11ae-4467-941e-05bf6922166an@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 2:35:32 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke
>> wrote:
>>> Taiwan you can write off--right now the US is still a
>>> credible threat. 50 years from now it won't be.
>>
>>> We aren't going to be the big dog in the 21st century, we're
>>> going to be a little tiny also-ran.
>>
>> Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if I
>> prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American people to stand
>> up, and do what is necessary, such as getting their educational
>> system back in order, to prevent such a dire eventuality.
>>
> In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
> Republican.)
>

You really are delusional.

On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 3:08:33 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 2:35:32 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:

> > Taiwan you can write off--right now the US is still a
> > credible threat. 50 years from now it won't be.

> > We aren't going to be the big dog in the 21st century, we're going to
> > be a little tiny also-ran.

> Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if I prefer not
> to dwell on them. I urge the American people to stand up, and do what
> is necessary, such as getting their educational system back in order, to
> prevent such a dire eventuality.

And the hour is late. I just read this quote from Chinese defence minister
Wei Fenghe:

(begin quote)
Especially, standing in the face of frantic US containment and pressure,
China and Russia are united together like a great mountain. Our friendship
is unbreakable. Together, we countered the hegemony of the US, and we
oppose the fake democratic regime of the US, the fake multi-culturalism,
as well as new forms of manifestation of the Cold War. Therefore, we've
displayed our relations as being better than allied.
(end quote)

Apparently China disagrees with your assesment of Russia being
irrelevant. A high GNP and a strong industrial base certainly were highly
relevant for the U.S. in World War II, but today, if you have a good strategic
nuclear deterrent, then you have what is needed for a modern war.

It is amusing that the alliance of China and Russia is better now, when
China is (sort of) Communist and Russia is fascist, than when it was when
both were Communist, but then that can be put down to Russia wanting to
set forth the one true path of Communism for everyone else.

John Savard

On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
> news:d342335a-11ae-4467...@googlegroups.com:

> > Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if I
> > prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American people to stand
> > up, and do what is necessary, such as getting their educational
> > system back in order, to prevent such a dire eventuality.

> In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
> Republican.)

I doubt that the Republican Party would like to see the United States
having a well-functioning educational system.

John Savard

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:346fb34a-16d3-4369-bfc6-82adf231d7adn@googlegroups.com:

> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>> news:d342335a-11ae-4467...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> > Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if
>> > I prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American people to
>> > stand up, and do what is necessary, such as getting their
>> > educational system back in order, to prevent such a dire
>> > eventuality.
>
>> In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
>> Republican.)
>
> I doubt that the Republican Party would like to see the United
> States having a well-functioning educational system.
>
You're programmed to, and you're an obedient little sheeple.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On 2021-11-23 3:51 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
> news:346fb34a-16d3-4369-bfc6-82adf231d7adn@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>> news:d342335a-11ae-4467...@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>>> Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if
>>>> I prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American people to
>>>> stand up, and do what is necessary, such as getting their
>>>> educational system back in order, to prevent such a dire
>>>> eventuality.
>>
>>> In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
>>> Republican.)
>>
>> I doubt that the Republican Party would like to see the United
>> States having a well-functioning educational system.
>>
> You're programmed to, and you're an obedient little sheeple.
>

It would be funny...

....except it's quite obvious you're serious.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:08:30 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 2:35:32 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>> Taiwan you can write off--right now the US is still a
>> credible threat. 50 years from now it won't be.
>
>> We aren't going to be the big dog in the 21st century, we're going to
>> be a little tiny also-ran.
>
>Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if I prefer not
>to dwell on them. I urge the American people to stand up, and do what
>is necessary, such as getting their educational system back in order, to
>prevent such a dire eventuality.

They have 4 times our population. All else being equal their economy
will be 4 times the size of ours. There's nothing that an educational
system can do about this.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:45:15 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 3:08:33 PM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 2:35:32 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> > Taiwan you can write off--right now the US is still a
>> > credible threat. 50 years from now it won't be.
>
>> > We aren't going to be the big dog in the 21st century, we're going to
>> > be a little tiny also-ran.
>
>> Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if I prefer not
>> to dwell on them. I urge the American people to stand up, and do what
>> is necessary, such as getting their educational system back in order, to
>> prevent such a dire eventuality.
>
>And the hour is late. I just read this quote from Chinese defence minister
>Wei Fenghe:
>
>(begin quote)
>Especially, standing in the face of frantic US containment and pressure,
>China and Russia are united together like a great mountain. Our friendship
>is unbreakable. Together, we countered the hegemony of the US, and we
>oppose the fake democratic regime of the US, the fake multi-culturalism,
>as well as new forms of manifestation of the Cold War. Therefore, we've
>displayed our relations as being better than allied.
>(end quote)
>
>Apparently China disagrees with your assesment of Russia being
>irrelevant. A high GNP and a strong industrial base certainly were highly
>relevant for the U.S. in World War II, but today, if you have a good strategic
>nuclear deterrent, then you have what is needed for a modern war.
>
>It is amusing that the alliance of China and Russia is better now, when
>China is (sort of) Communist and Russia is fascist, than when it was when
>both were Communist, but then that can be put down to Russia wanting to
>set forth the one true path of Communism for everyone else.

Russia's economy is the size of Italy's. They're the junior partner
in that alliance whether they like it or not.

If a nuclear deterrend is all that is needed for a modern war, then
what happened in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan? You really don't
have a clue.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:46:51 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>> news:d342335a-11ae-4467...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> > Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if I
>> > prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American people to stand
>> > up, and do what is necessary, such as getting their educational
>> > system back in order, to prevent such a dire eventuality.
>
>> In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
>> Republican.)
>
>I doubt that the Republican Party would like to see the United States
>having a well-functioning educational system.

You can doubt anything you want to.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:11:28 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:07:30 -0500, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Yeah, right. The US stuck its face somewhere where it wasn't wanted,
>>bullying a bunch of people who didn't want to be bullied, and they
>>fought back until the US decided that they hadn't picked a weak enough
>>victim and went off to look for somebody else to bully.
>>
>>If you want a war between the US and China you are so many kinds of
>>stupid that there isn't a large enough number to count them.
>
>This would presumably explain why one of the first things China did
>after the end of the Vietnam war was to go to war with Vietnam.

Which didn't turn out any better for China than it did for the US.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:10:22 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:02:50 -0500, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:17:21 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:28:22 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:02:50 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> >Hint: David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series which takes place 100 years
>>>> >after a successful Chinese "decapitation strike" against Western
>>>> >leadership very much >ISN'T< a utopia! (I thought it was a pretty good
>>>> >read but it would NOT have been somewhere many of us would want to
>>>> >live)
>>>
>>>> Is he Chinese?
>>>
>>>I see your point. If he isn't Chinese, how would he _really_ understand
>>>the Chinese culture.
>
>So presumably by that 'logic' only Germans or Russians could write
>books about WW2 on the eastern front (1941-45) which meant Communist
>revisionism before 1991 (Yes I read Chuikov's books on Stalingrad and
>Berlin. Let's just say that these Soviet era histories were a BIT
>different than how Western writers have written them! And said as much
>about the early Brezhnev era when they were written than 1942 and
>1945)

People who have never experienced a culture can write all the books
about it that they want to. And people who grew up in that culture
can recognize that they are bullshit.

>>>In any case, the future depicted in the Chung Kuo novels is one based on
>>>Imperial China, which is long since departed, not Communist China. So
>>>that limits its relevance.
>
>It's a 'science fiction' series of novels for heaven's sake. And were
>written during a period in recent history when it was being seriously
>argued that China at that time was driven more by Confucius than Mao.

Argued by who?

>No question Wingrove is one of those who argues "it's all about power
>and political principles be damned".
>
>>>Generally speaking, I am willing to accept that because of the threat of
>>>things like Mongol invasions, the Chinese have been willing to put up with
>>>a lot from their governments. But even they have their limits, hence the
>>>downfall of the Qing dynasty - where the Manchurians ruled, forced the
>>>Chinese to wear pigtails, and so on.
>>>
>>>But the issue of whether the Chinese people would "welcome us as liberators"
>>>is _not_ one I am terribly concerned with. As long as the Tibetans and the
>>>Uighurs welcome us as liberators,
>
>I don't see any credible post-1949 scenario that leaves either the US
>or NATO or even Russia in control of significant portions of China
>that don't involve glowing in the dark. (And I say that as somebody
>with his 25 year pin from soc.history.what-if which is all about
>exploring counterfactuals) I >have< read stories that involve Chinese
>conquest of portions of Siberia with the ceasefire line being
>somewhere between Lake Baikal and the Urals.

Why? The Chinese didn't have any way of responding to nuclear
weapons.

>>So now your plan is to get into another war in Asia. Do the world a
>>favor, go step on a land mine and if you survive get back to us on how
>>wonderful war is as a solution to political disagreements.
>>
>>>and the people of Taiwan are happy that they
>>>won't be forced to submit to the mainland regime... how the ordinary Chinese
>>>civilians may feel is as relevant as how ordinary German civilians felt when
>>>V-E Day happened. China isn't *just* a dictatorship which doesn't conform to
>>>the "American Way", it's also an *agressor nation*.
>
>Uh you must be reading a different news feed than I am since the one
>I'm reading shows Beijing bullying Taipei on a nearly daily basis.

Beijing makes a lot of noise. The question is whether the Taiwanese
man-in-the-street (as opposed to the politicians who stand to end up
in a Chinese prison) actually gives a damn.

>As for May 1945 in Germany my guess is that most Germans were chiefly
>glad the shooting had stopped. I don't think your comparison holds
>water.

That's actually the way to achieve success in war, make it bad enough
for the man in the street that he doesn't really care what happens
other than the bombs stop falling on him.

On 2021-11-23 5:31 p.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:46:51 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>> news:d342335a-11ae-4467...@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>>> Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if I
>>>> prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American people to stand
>>>> up, and do what is necessary, such as getting their educational
>>>> system back in order, to prevent such a dire eventuality.
>>
>>> In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
>>> Republican.)
>>
>> I doubt that the Republican Party would like to see the United States
>> having a well-functioning educational system.
>
> You can doubt anything you want to.
>

Sorry, but their actions belie your defence of them

On 11/23/2021 1:02 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 11:43:46 PM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 19:28:19 -0500, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I can't imagine many in the West would WANT to live under PRC style
>>>> ideas of "civilization" and that comment most definitely includes
>>>> those of Chinese ancestry.
>>>
>>> And yet they seem to like it.
>> Actually I was talking about people of Chinese origin living outside
>> China mostly in the US and Canada. Since most of these folks are not
>> masochists one can reasonably assume they prefer the lifestyle here
>> than there. That said there are grave concerns about Beijing's United
>> Front department which has been claimed to have directly influenced
>> the results of several seats in the October Canadian election.
>>
>> https://www.securitepublique.gc.ca/cnt/trnsprnc/brfng-mtrls/prlmntry-bndrs/20200930/015/index-en.aspx
>> (please note that the above is a official web page of the Government
>> of Canada)
>> https://globalnews.ca/news/6920433/chinese-canadians-communist-party-influence/
>> (this is a Canadian TV network)
>>>> Hint: David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series which takes place 100 years
>>>> after a successful Chinese "decapitation strike" against Western
>>>> leadership very much >ISN'T< a utopia! (I thought it was a pretty good
>>>> read but it would NOT have been somewhere many of us would want to
>>>> live)
>>>
>>> Is he Chinese?
>> He's a British science fiction writer.. So far as I'm aware he's the
>> only one outside the alternate history genre who was written a Chinese
>> world empire scenario.
>
> Perhaps not the first, but here's one much older that I've read:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon_2419_A.D.
>
> Other "threats from the East," here:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril#Literary_Yellow_Peril

Or this classic by Robert Heinlein published in 1941 encompassing a
PanAsian invasion of the United States:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Column

Lynn

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:51:42 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>> I doubt that the Republican Party would like to see the United
>> States having a well-functioning educational system.
>>
>You're programmed to, and you're an obedient little sheeple.

Well no - they want 50 of them and the fact that there is no
meaningful interplay between them is one of the problems.

Canada, Britain, Australia have 10 (+ minor territorial systems mostly
financed by the feds), 4 and 6 respectively but at the very least they
do talk to each other. Universities are completely separate from
elementary and high schools in all 4 countries but there are just too
many states for the cooperation to be all that meaningful.

That many separate educational authorities in the US of course mean
all the way from superb to below adequate. To the extent that they're
better in Canada the UK and Australia it's that there's more
centralization due to fewer authorities.

At their best, the US leads the world in education, but the average
(much less states 40-50) are nowhere near that level.

You get some standardization in the US due to interstate bodies (PBS
is a good example) but it's hardly a national system. The French
minister of education used to brag he could walk into any classroom in
France and after being told what level of class it was have a good
idea what was on the lesson plan for that day - if the story isn't
apocryphal (which I think it is) that's TOO centralized.

I do feel sorry for the high school classes of 2020 and 2021 as
they've had an altered junior and senior experience which hopefully
will enable them in 10 years to do the same as their 2018-2019 peers
but no question some of the things I saw at my childrens' old high
school (they're now 30 32 and 34) really make me wonder. For one thing
the emphasis this year was necessarily on keeping kids safe but that
required some corner cutting and I hope the kids don't suffer long
term for it.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:30:41 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>If a nuclear deterrend is all that is needed for a modern war, then
>what happened in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan? You really don't
>have a clue.

Well the whole point of the emphasis on armor and special forces is so
that the armed forces never get into a situation where the
alternatives are to use nukes or surrender. That's been the core of US
military policy for nearly 70+ years and for good reason.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:32:08 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>>This would presumably explain why one of the first things China did
>>after the end of the Vietnam war was to go to war with Vietnam.
>
>Which didn't turn out any better for China than it did for the US.

Or in any other campaign by China in the NUMEROUS attempts by China to
conquer Vietnam which is pretty much the entire post-Mongol era. With
the obvious exceptions of course being the French colonial era in
Indochina and WW2 when it was the Japanese occupying Vietnam.

But no question the Chinese and Vietnamese have fought at least as
many times as Britain and France before 1815. Their history of warfare
is far more than the 4 weeks of 1979.

The most China ever got out of Vietnam was tribute - they never got
conquest.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:38:17 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:10:22 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:02:50 -0500, J. Clarke
>><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:17:21 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>>><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:28:22 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:02:50 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>>>> wrote:
>People who have never experienced a culture can write all the books
>about it that they want to. And people who grew up in that culture
>can recognize that they are bullshit.

One of my key pandemic reads were the first two volumes of Stephen
Kotkin's biography of Stalin which necessarily was as much a history
of Communist Russia as a true bio. The third book was supposed to be
completed by now but for obvious reasons Kotkin has not been able to
return to Russia to continue his research. The first two books were
birth to 1927 (when he gained undisputed power in the Soviet Union,
1927 - 22 June 1941 with the third volume - which is what I'm
interested in - being from 22 June 1941 to the end of his life as I'm
especially interested in Stalin in the WW2 period).

Kotkin is fluent in Russian and has met with a wide range of Russian
academics over his entire academic career and has mostly been working
from first hand sources.

You would be mistaken to think most of the Western (which is mostly
American and British) historical authors who write on Nazi Germany and
the Soviet Union are at David Irving's level of intellectual honesty
and insight.

>>>>In any case, the future depicted in the Chung Kuo novels is one based on
>>>>Imperial China, which is long since departed, not Communist China. So
>>>>that limits its relevance.
>>
>>It's a 'science fiction' series of novels for heaven's sake. And were
>>written during a period in recent history when it was being seriously
>>argued that China at that time was driven more by Confucius than Mao.
>
>Argued by who?

It used to be argued by quite a few American academics in the Jiang
and Hu eras.

>>No question Wingrove is one of those who argues "it's all about power
>>and political principles be damned".
>>
>>>>Generally speaking, I am willing to accept that because of the threat of
>>>>things like Mongol invasions, the Chinese have been willing to put up with
>>>>a lot from their governments. But even they have their limits, hence the
>>>>downfall of the Qing dynasty - where the Manchurians ruled, forced the
>>>>Chinese to wear pigtails, and so on.
>>>>
>>>>But the issue of whether the Chinese people would "welcome us as liberators"
>>>>is _not_ one I am terribly concerned with. As long as the Tibetans and the
>>>>Uighurs welcome us as liberators,

I am highly skeptical of this EVER being the case in China under
pretty much any circumstance, though no question besides the Tibetans
and Uighurs, the people of Hong Kong would definitely welcome "us" as
liberators and I base that on 15 trips to Hong Kong between 1988 and
2012. (About 6 months in HK total)

>>I don't see any credible post-1949 scenario that leaves either the US
>>or NATO or even Russia in control of significant portions of China
>>that don't involve glowing in the dark. (And I say that as somebody
>>with his 25 year pin from soc.history.what-if which is all about
>>exploring counterfactuals) I >have< read stories that involve Chinese
>>conquest of portions of Siberia with the ceasefire line being
>>somewhere between Lake Baikal and the Urals.
>
>Why? The Chinese didn't have any way of responding to nuclear
>weapons.

The stories I read were based on continued stagnation in Russia or an
outright collapse with or without war against the US and NATO. One
scenario (sorry - can't recall the author) that got me involved
US/NATO stopping the Soviet advance and pushing them back to what is
now pretty much the eastern boundary of NATO leading to civil unrest
in Russia and a Chinese move to grab what they could east of the Urals
while Western attention was focussed on Europe.

>>>So now your plan is to get into another war in Asia. Do the world a
>>>favor, go step on a land mine and if you survive get back to us on how
>>>wonderful war is as a solution to political disagreements.

While nobody really WANTS that some contingency planning is essential
- the alternative would be to be caught pants down and that would be
bad for the world.

>>>>and the people of Taiwan are happy that they
>>>>won't be forced to submit to the mainland regime... how the ordinary Chinese
>>>>civilians may feel is as relevant as how ordinary German civilians felt when
>>>>V-E Day happened. China isn't *just* a dictatorship which doesn't conform to
>>>>the "American Way", it's also an *agressor nation*.
>>
>>Uh you must be reading a different news feed than I am since the one
>>I'm reading shows Beijing bullying Taipei on a nearly daily basis.
>
>Beijing makes a lot of noise. The question is whether the Taiwanese
>man-in-the-street (as opposed to the politicians who stand to end up
>in a Chinese prison) actually gives a damn.

Our store has Taiwanese vendors who despite having outsourced some
production to the mainland are quite clear they themselves want no
part of the Peoples Republic of China.

>>As for May 1945 in Germany my guess is that most Germans were chiefly
>>glad the shooting had stopped. I don't think your comparison holds
>>water.
>
>That's actually the way to achieve success in war, make it bad enough
>for the man in the street that he doesn't really care what happens
>other than the bombs stop falling on him.

I've already discussed 3 of my high school teachers (British
intelligence officer, International Brigade alumni and Hitler Youth)
who had fascinating stories to tell but 50 years later are likely of
limited utility studying their experiences as much has changed since
my high school days ended in the first half of the 1970s...

With three obvious exceptions (the regiment from Winnipeg captured at
Hong Kong, the 3000 or so troops who helped the United States
recapture Atu in the Aleutians in 1943 and the 100000+ who were en
route from Europe to west coast Canadian ports en route to Japan
before Japan surrendered) Canada's war was mostly in Europe and at
sea.

Most of the men in our family who served were in the navy which is not
surprising since most of my grandfather's generation were commercial
fishermen. (The joke in our family is that the last men on my mother's
side who fought on land fought Napoleon Bonaparte...)

In article <t1arpgpr25olsicqvd39gjcdu9cu2k6klf@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:32:08 -0500, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>This would presumably explain why one of the first things China did
>>>after the end of the Vietnam war was to go to war with Vietnam.
>>
>>Which didn't turn out any better for China than it did for the US.
>
>Or in any other campaign by China in the NUMEROUS attempts by China to
>conquer Vietnam which is pretty much the entire post-Mongol era.

Earlier than that. Wikipedia, for example, lists wars between
what is now Vietnam and China in 111 BC, 40-43 AD, 248, 543, 602, 723,
791, 930, 931, 938, 981, and 1077.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:59:44 -0800, Alan <nope@nope.com> wrote:

>On 2021-11-23 3:51 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>> news:346fb34a-16d3-4369-bfc6-82adf231d7adn@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
>>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>>> news:d342335a-11ae-4467...@googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>>> Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if
>>>>> I prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American people to
>>>>> stand up, and do what is necessary, such as getting their
>>>>> educational system back in order, to prevent such a dire
>>>>> eventuality.
>>>
>>>> In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
>>>> Republican.)
>>>
>>> I doubt that the Republican Party would like to see the United
>>> States having a well-functioning educational system.
>>>
>> You're programmed to, and you're an obedient little sheeple.
>>
>
>It would be funny...
>
>...except it's quite obvious you're serious.

I think he is slipping into bot-mode.

The use of "sheeple" is an indicator.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:46:51 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>> news:d342335a-11ae-4467...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> > Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if I
>> > prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American people to stand
>> > up, and do what is necessary, such as getting their educational
>> > system back in order, to prevent such a dire eventuality.
>
>> In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
>> Republican.)
>
>I doubt that the Republican Party would like to see the United States
>having a well-functioning educational system.

Depends on what you mean by "well-functioning".

Their definition may be different from yours.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 11/23/2021 1:01 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 10:07:34 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> If you want a war between the US and China you are so many kinds of
>> stupid that there isn't a large enough number to count them.
>
> Oh, no. Just as I didn't want a war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, I want
> China to be effectively deterred from invading Taiwan, just as the Soviet Union
> was effectively deterred from invading western Europe, so that a war doesn't
> happen.
>
> What is most likely to cause a war is if the Chinese leadership gets any misguided
> notions about American resolve. As long as they know it is unshakeable, nothing bad
> will happen.
>
> John Savard

China is on the road towards more military might than the USA. And it
will be soon. China already discounts USA resolve severely as they have
been paying off Biden through his son.

Lynn

On 2021-11-24 11:19 a.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 11/23/2021 1:01 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 10:07:34 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> If you want a war between the US and China you are so many kinds of
>>> stupid that there isn't a large enough number to count them.
>>
>> Oh, no. Just as I didn't want a war between the U.S. and the Soviet
>> Union, I want
>> China to be effectively deterred from invading Taiwan, just as the
>> Soviet Union
>> was effectively deterred from invading western Europe, so that a war
>> doesn't
>> happen.
>>
>> What is most likely to cause a war is if the Chinese leadership gets
>> any misguided
>> notions about American resolve. As long as they know it is
>> unshakeable, nothing bad
>> will happen.
>>
>> John Savard
>
> China is on the road towards more military might than the USA.  And it
> will be soon.  China already discounts USA resolve severely as they have
> been paying off Biden through his son.

LOL!

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:omrspg1lc5j70i6gmur9q9buptfqo18oak@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:59:44 -0800, Alan <nope@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2021-11-23 3:51 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>wrote:
>>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>> news:346fb34a-16d3-4369-bfc6-82adf231d7adn@googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Jibini
>>>> Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>>>> news:d342335a-11ae-4467...@googlegroups.com:
>>>>
>>>>>> Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even
>>>>>> if I prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American
>>>>>> people to stand up, and do what is necessary, such as
>>>>>> getting their educational system back in order, to prevent
>>>>>> such a dire eventuality.
>>>>
>>>>> In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
>>>>> Republican.)
>>>>
>>>> I doubt that the Republican Party would like to see the
>>>> United States having a well-functioning educational system.
>>>>
>>> You're programmed to, and you're an obedient little sheeple.
>>>
>>
>>It would be funny...
>>
>>...except it's quite obvious you're serious.
>
> I think he is slipping into bot-mode.
>
> The use of "sheeple" is an indicator.

Quaddie doesn't deserve my best work.

So I'll leave you and Alan to your circle jerk.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:forspgh022hbqhmfvs42famtdn7r09qic1@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:46:51 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 4:50:39 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
>>Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
>>> news:d342335a-11ae-4467...@googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> > Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even
>>> > if I prefer not to dwell on them. I urge the American people
>>> > to stand up, and do what is necessary, such as getting their
>>> > educational system back in order, to prevent such a dire
>>> > eventuality.
>>
>>> In other words, vote Trump in 2024! (Or, at the least, vote
>>> Republican.)
>>
>>I doubt that the Republican Party would like to see the United
>>States having a well-functioning educational system.
>
> Depends on what you mean by "well-functioning".
>
> Their definition may be different from yours.

And their definition matters, where Quaddie's doesn't.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB