On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 8:57:46 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:

> If China wants to invade Taiwan they're going to do it regardless.
> What do you expect the US to do about it?

Someone else put it better than I did:

"we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support
any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty."

These words, spoken on the 20th of January, 1961, are a standard that
Donald Trump never understood, but they are the standard that I hope
will forever guide the United States as long as tyrannies threaten the
liberty of other countries anywhere in the world.

John Savard

On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 12:11:05 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 8:57:46 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> If China wants to invade Taiwan they're going to do it regardless.
>> What do you expect the US to do about it?
>
>Someone else put it better than I did:
>
>"we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support
>any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty."

In other words we will commit suicide. The Chinese can trade us 3:1
and still win.

>These words, spoken on the 20th of January, 1961, are a standard that
>Donald Trump never understood, but they are the standard that I hope
>will forever guide the United States as long as tyrannies threaten the
>liberty of other countries anywhere in the world.

Dream on, Quadi.

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in
news:5e32b0ac-8e82-4819-8c3a-c01c24d7828an@googlegroups.com:

> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 8:57:46 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke
> wrote:
>
>> If China wants to invade Taiwan they're going to do it
>> regardless. What do you expect the US to do about it?
>
> Someone else put it better than I did:
>
> "we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship,
> support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and
> success of liberty."
>
> These words, spoken on the 20th of January, 1961, are a standard
> that Donald Trump never understood, but they are the standard
> that I hope will forever guide the United States as long as
> tyrannies threaten the liberty of other countries anywhere in
> the world.
>
And yet, the US hasn't liberated Canada from the fascists currently
in control.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:74hlpg5quugsnvu1r2hqp0q24nnsaqb8t3@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 21 Nov 2021 12:11:05 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 8:57:46 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke
>>wrote:
>>
>>> If China wants to invade Taiwan they're going to do it
>>> regardless. What do you expect the US to do about it?
>>
>>Someone else put it better than I did:
>>
>>"we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship,
>>support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and
>>success of liberty."
>
> In other words we will commit suicide. The Chinese can trade us
> 3:1 and still win.
>
I suspect the ratio would be far, far higher than that. We have an
army. They have a mob of peasants with substandard weaponry.

>>These words, spoken on the 20th of January, 1961, are a standard
>>that Donald Trump never understood, but they are the standard
>>that I hope will forever guide the United States as long as
>>tyrannies threaten the liberty of other countries anywhere in
>>the world.
>
> Dream on, Quadi.
>
And by "dream," you mean "hallucinate," of course.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On 11/21/2021 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 8:57:46 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> If China wants to invade Taiwan they're going to do it regardless.
>> What do you expect the US to do about it?
>
> Someone else put it better than I did:
>
> "we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support
> any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty."
>
> These words, spoken on the 20th of January, 1961, are a standard that
> ---
>
> John Savard
>

POTUS JF Kennedy was a jerk off warmonger who
killed 58,000 of my classmates.

His "standard" has clearly failed.

Some countries do not wish our view of "liberty".

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 08:46:33 -0800, a425couple
<a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 11/21/2021 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 8:57:46 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> If China wants to invade Taiwan they're going to do it regardless.
>>> What do you expect the US to do about it?
>>
>> Someone else put it better than I did:
>>
>> "we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support
>> any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty."
>>
>> These words, spoken on the 20th of January, 1961, are a standard that
>> ---
>>
>> John Savard
>>
>
>POTUS JF Kennedy was a jerk off warmonger who
>killed 58,000 of my classmates.
>
>His "standard" has clearly failed.
>
>Some countries do not wish our view of "liberty".

We do need to get over the notion that we have a mandate to civilize
the heathens. And this is what wars like Vietnam and Iraq and
Afghanistan are really about, attempting to impose Western
Civilization on societies that are not in any sense Western.

One hopes that when the Chinese finish becoming the Big Dog they don't
follow that example and try to civilize the barbarians, which to them
is us.

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 6:06:43 PM UTC, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 08:46:33 -0800, a425couple
> <a425c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 11/21/2021 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 8:57:46 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>
> >>> If China wants to invade Taiwan they're going to do it regardless.
> >>> What do you expect the US to do about it?
> >>
> >> Someone else put it better than I did:
> >>
> >> "we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support
> >> any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty."
> >>
> >> These words, spoken on the 20th of January, 1961, are a standard that
> >> ---
> >>
> >> John Savard
> >>
> >
> >POTUS JF Kennedy was a jerk off warmonger who
> >killed 58,000 of my classmates.
> >
> >His "standard" has clearly failed.
> >
> >Some countries do not wish our view of "liberty".
> We do need to get over the notion that we have a mandate to civilize
> the heathens. And this is what wars like Vietnam and Iraq and
> Afghanistan are really about, attempting to impose Western
> Civilization on societies that are not in any sense Western.
>
> One hopes that when the Chinese finish becoming the Big Dog they don't
> follow that example and try to civilize the barbarians, which to them
> is us.
Some of this was hubris, some of this was listening to exiles when anyboy who knew any history should have known not to trust them, but some of this was thought to be a customary obligation close to international law - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottery_Barn_rule#Political_usage

On 2021-11-22 10:06 a.m., J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 08:46:33 -0800, a425couple
> <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11/21/2021 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 8:57:46 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> If China wants to invade Taiwan they're going to do it regardless.
>>>> What do you expect the US to do about it?
>>>
>>> Someone else put it better than I did:
>>>
>>> "we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support
>>> any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of liberty."
>>>
>>> These words, spoken on the 20th of January, 1961, are a standard that
>>> ---
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>>
>>
>> POTUS JF Kennedy was a jerk off warmonger who
>> killed 58,000 of my classmates.
>>
>> His "standard" has clearly failed.
>>
>> Some countries do not wish our view of "liberty".
>
> We do need to get over the notion that we have a mandate to civilize
> the heathens. And this is what wars like Vietnam and Iraq and
> Afghanistan are really about, attempting to impose Western
> Civilization on societies that are not in any sense Western.
>
> One hopes that when the Chinese finish becoming the Big Dog they don't
> follow that example and try to civilize the barbarians, which to them
> is us.
>
>

Yeah... ...maybe it's time you actually spent some time and effort to
ensure the survival and success of liberty ("and justice for all")...

....at home.

On 2021-11-22 8:46 a.m., a425couple wrote:
> On 11/21/2021 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 8:57:46 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> If China wants to invade Taiwan they're going to do it regardless.
>>> What do you expect the US to do about it?
>>
>> Someone else put it better than I did:
>>
>> "we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support
>> any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of
>> liberty."
>>
>> These words, spoken on the 20th of January, 1961, are a standard that
>> ---
>>
>> John Savard
>>
>
> POTUS JF Kennedy was a jerk off warmonger who
> killed 58,000 of my classmates.

Actually, Kennedy isn't the one who did that.

The Vietnam war didn't really escalate until 1964...

....when Kennedy was already dead.

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:06:39 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>We do need to get over the notion that we have a mandate to civilize
>the heathens. And this is what wars like Vietnam and Iraq and
>Afghanistan are really about, attempting to impose Western
>Civilization on societies that are not in any sense Western.
>
>One hopes that when the Chinese finish becoming the Big Dog they don't
>follow that example and try to civilize the barbarians, which to them
>is us.
>
I can't imagine many in the West would WANT to live under PRC style
ideas of "civilization" and that comment most definitely includes
those of Chinese ancestry.

Hint: David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series which takes place 100 years
after a successful Chinese "decapitation strike" against Western
leadership very much >ISN'T< a utopia! (I thought it was a pretty good
read but it would NOT have been somewhere many of us would want to
live)

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:02:50 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 13:06:39 -0500, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>We do need to get over the notion that we have a mandate to civilize
>>the heathens. And this is what wars like Vietnam and Iraq and
>>Afghanistan are really about, attempting to impose Western
>>Civilization on societies that are not in any sense Western.
>>
>>One hopes that when the Chinese finish becoming the Big Dog they don't
>>follow that example and try to civilize the barbarians, which to them
>>is us.
>>
>I can't imagine many in the West would WANT to live under PRC style
>ideas of "civilization" and that comment most definitely includes
>those of Chinese ancestry.

And yet they seem to like it.

>Hint: David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series which takes place 100 years
>after a successful Chinese "decapitation strike" against Western
>leadership very much >ISN'T< a utopia! (I thought it was a pretty good
>read but it would NOT have been somewhere many of us would want to
>live)

Is he Chinese?

On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 19:28:19 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>>I can't imagine many in the West would WANT to live under PRC style
>>ideas of "civilization" and that comment most definitely includes
>>those of Chinese ancestry.
>
>And yet they seem to like it.

Actually I was talking about people of Chinese origin living outside
China mostly in the US and Canada. Since most of these folks are not
masochists one can reasonably assume they prefer the lifestyle here
than there. That said there are grave concerns about Beijing's United
Front department which has been claimed to have directly influenced
the results of several seats in the October Canadian election.

https://www.securitepublique.gc.ca/cnt/trnsprnc/brfng-mtrls/prlmntry-bndrs/20200930/015/index-en.aspx
(please note that the above is a official web page of the Government
of Canada)
https://globalnews.ca/news/6920433/chinese-canadians-communist-party-influence/
(this is a Canadian TV network)

>>Hint: David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series which takes place 100 years
>>after a successful Chinese "decapitation strike" against Western
>>leadership very much >ISN'T< a utopia! (I thought it was a pretty good
>>read but it would NOT have been somewhere many of us would want to
>>live)
>
>Is he Chinese?

He's a British science fiction writer.. So far as I'm aware he's the
only one outside the alternate history genre who was written a Chinese
world empire scenario.

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 11:06:43 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> And this is what wars like Vietnam and Iraq and
> Afghanistan are really about, attempting to impose Western
> Civilization on societies that are not in any sense Western.

Let's take Korea as an example, shall we? Since the Koreans are not
in any way Western, clearly, then, it's nonsense to think that Koreans
prefer to live under the kind of government found in South Korea instead
of the kind of government in North Korea, by your reasoning.

It doesn't matter whether your culture is Western, Asian, or African.

Nobody likes being pushed around by bullies. The Taliban and the Viet
Cong fall into that category. The problem was that the United States failed
to care for the Vietnamese people and the Afghan people as much as they
cared for their own people. People are people, no matter the color of their
skin.

John Savard

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:28:22 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:02:50 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
> wrote:

> >Hint: David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series which takes place 100 years
> >after a successful Chinese "decapitation strike" against Western
> >leadership very much >ISN'T< a utopia! (I thought it was a pretty good
> >read but it would NOT have been somewhere many of us would want to
> >live)

> Is he Chinese?

I see your point. If he isn't Chinese, how would he _really_ understand
the Chinese culture.

In any case, the future depicted in the Chung Kuo novels is one based on
Imperial China, which is long since departed, not Communist China. So
that limits its relevance.

Generally speaking, I am willing to accept that because of the threat of
things like Mongol invasions, the Chinese have been willing to put up with
a lot from their governments. But even they have their limits, hence the
downfall of the Qing dynasty - where the Manchurians ruled, forced the
Chinese to wear pigtails, and so on.

But the issue of whether the Chinese people would "welcome us as liberators"
is _not_ one I am terribly concerned with. As long as the Tibetans and the
Uighurs welcome us as liberators, and the people of Taiwan are happy that they
won't be forced to submit to the mainland regime... how the ordinary Chinese
civilians may feel is as relevant as how ordinary German civilians felt when
V-E Day happened. China isn't *just* a dictatorship which doesn't conform to
the "American Way", it's also an *agressor nation*.

John Savard

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 1:40:29 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

> Yeah... ...maybe it's time you actually spent some time and effort to
> ensure the survival and success of liberty ("and justice for all")...
>
> ...at home.

In case you're addressing me, rather than J. Clarke - which seems at
least possible from the context - what would you have me do in this
veritable paradise of democracy known as Canada in which I live?

Unless maybe you're one of those who thinks that I ought to be
fighting for liberty by protesting against common-sense emergency
public-health measures in a pandemic?

No thank you. That kind of addled thinking led, on January 6 of this
year, to people seeking to overthrow the result of a free and fair election...
because it was *too* free and fair, mail-in ballots preventing a lot of
voter suppression tactics from reducing voter turnout among black
voters enough to affect the result of the election.

John Savard

On 2021-11-23 1:21 a.m., Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 1:40:29 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
>
>> Yeah... ...maybe it's time you actually spent some time and effort to
>> ensure the survival and success of liberty ("and justice for all")...
>>
>> ...at home.
>
> In case you're addressing me, rather than J. Clarke - which seems at
> least possible from the context - what would you have me do in this
> veritable paradise of democracy known as Canada in which I live?

Nope. My comments were to Clarke.

Alan <nope@nope.com> writes:
>On 2021-11-22 8:46 a.m., a425couple wrote:
>> On 11/21/2021 12:11 PM, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 13, 2021 at 8:57:46 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> If China wants to invade Taiwan they're going to do it regardless.
>>>> What do you expect the US to do about it?
>>>
>>> Someone else put it better than I did:
>>>
>>> "we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support
>>> any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and success of
>>> liberty."
>>>
>>> These words, spoken on the 20th of January, 1961, are a standard that
>>> ---
>>>
>>> John Savard
>>>
>>
>> POTUS JF Kennedy was a jerk off warmonger who
>> killed 58,000 of my classmates.
>
>Actually, Kennedy isn't the one who did that.
>
>The Vietnam war didn't really escalate until 1964...
>
>...when Kennedy was already dead.

And it was started before Kennedy was elected. By the French.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:17:21 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:28:22 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:02:50 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>
>> >Hint: David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series which takes place 100 years
>> >after a successful Chinese "decapitation strike" against Western
>> >leadership very much >ISN'T< a utopia! (I thought it was a pretty good
>> >read but it would NOT have been somewhere many of us would want to
>> >live)
>
>> Is he Chinese?
>
>I see your point. If he isn't Chinese, how would he _really_ understand
>the Chinese culture.
>
>In any case, the future depicted in the Chung Kuo novels is one based on
>Imperial China, which is long since departed, not Communist China. So
>that limits its relevance.
>
>Generally speaking, I am willing to accept that because of the threat of
>things like Mongol invasions, the Chinese have been willing to put up with
>a lot from their governments. But even they have their limits, hence the
>downfall of the Qing dynasty - where the Manchurians ruled, forced the
>Chinese to wear pigtails, and so on.
>
>But the issue of whether the Chinese people would "welcome us as liberators"
>is _not_ one I am terribly concerned with. As long as the Tibetans and the
>Uighurs welcome us as liberators,

So now your plan is to get into another war in Asia. Do the world a
favor, go step on a land mine and if you survive get back to us on how
wonderful war is as a solution to political disagreements.

>and the people of Taiwan are happy that they
>won't be forced to submit to the mainland regime... how the ordinary Chinese
>civilians may feel is as relevant as how ordinary German civilians felt when
>V-E Day happened. China isn't *just* a dictatorship which doesn't conform to
>the "American Way", it's also an *agressor nation*.
>
>John Savard

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:10:11 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 11:06:43 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>> And this is what wars like Vietnam and Iraq and
>> Afghanistan are really about, attempting to impose Western
>> Civilization on societies that are not in any sense Western.
>
>Let's take Korea as an example, shall we? Since the Koreans are not
>in any way Western, clearly, then, it's nonsense to think that Koreans
>prefer to live under the kind of government found in South Korea instead
>of the kind of government in North Korea, by your reasoning.

What leads you to believe that "the kind of government found in South
Korea" is "western"?

>It doesn't matter whether your culture is Western, Asian, or African.
>
>Nobody likes being pushed around by bullies.

And yet you are seeking to do just that.

>The Taliban and the Viet
>Cong fall into that category.

From their viewpoint the Americans are the bullies.

>The problem was that the United States failed
>to care for the Vietnamese people and the Afghan people as much as they
>cared for their own people. People are people, no matter the color of their
>skin.

Yeah, right. The US stuck its face somewhere where it wasn't wanted,
bullying a bunch of people who didn't want to be bullied, and they
fought back until the US decided that they hadn't picked a weak enough
victim and went off to look for somebody else to bully.

If you want a war between the US and China you are so many kinds of
stupid that there isn't a large enough number to count them.

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote in
news:em7qpg956sgbnai74hshfjj7npdr83es4d@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:10:11 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 11:06:43 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke
>>wrote:
>>> And this is what wars like Vietnam and Iraq and
>>> Afghanistan are really about, attempting to impose Western
>>> Civilization on societies that are not in any sense Western.
>>
>>Let's take Korea as an example, shall we? Since the Koreans are
>>not in any way Western, clearly, then, it's nonsense to think
>>that Koreans prefer to live under the kind of government found
>>in South Korea instead of the kind of government in North Korea,
>>by your reasoning.
>
> What leads you to believe that "the kind of government found in
> South Korea" is "western"?

Or that the kind of government in North Korea is "Korean."
>
>>It doesn't matter whether your culture is Western, Asian, or
>>African.
>>
>>Nobody likes being pushed around by bullies.
>
> And yet you are seeking to do just that.

Bullying is always wonderful for the bully. And for those who are
actually too weak and stupid to be bullies, it's a perfect fantasy.
>
>>The Taliban and the Viet
>>Cong fall into that category.
>
> From their viewpoint the Americans are the bullies.
>
>>The problem was that the United States failed
>>to care for the Vietnamese people and the Afghan people as much
>>as they cared for their own people. People are people, no matter
>>the color of their skin.
>
> Yeah, right. The US stuck its face somewhere where it wasn't
> wanted, bullying a bunch of people who didn't want to be
> bullied, and they fought back until the US decided that they
> hadn't picked a weak enough victim and went off to look for
> somebody else to bully.
>
> If you want a war between the US and China you are so many kinds
> of stupid that there isn't a large enough number to count them.
>
And the sky is blue and grass is gree and water is wet.

Have you ever read one of Quaddie's idiotic posts before?

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 10:07:34 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:

> If you want a war between the US and China you are so many kinds of
> stupid that there isn't a large enough number to count them.

Oh, no. Just as I didn't want a war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, I want
China to be effectively deterred from invading Taiwan, just as the Soviet Union
was effectively deterred from invading western Europe, so that a war doesn't
happen.

What is most likely to cause a war is if the Chinese leadership gets any misguided
notions about American resolve. As long as they know it is unshakeable, nothing bad
will happen.

John Savard

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 11:43:46 PM UTC-5, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 19:28:19 -0500, J. Clarke
> <jclarke...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>I can't imagine many in the West would WANT to live under PRC style
> >>ideas of "civilization" and that comment most definitely includes
> >>those of Chinese ancestry.
> >
> >And yet they seem to like it.
> Actually I was talking about people of Chinese origin living outside
> China mostly in the US and Canada. Since most of these folks are not
> masochists one can reasonably assume they prefer the lifestyle here
> than there. That said there are grave concerns about Beijing's United
> Front department which has been claimed to have directly influenced
> the results of several seats in the October Canadian election.
>
> https://www.securitepublique.gc.ca/cnt/trnsprnc/brfng-mtrls/prlmntry-bndrs/20200930/015/index-en.aspx
> (please note that the above is a official web page of the Government
> of Canada)
> https://globalnews.ca/news/6920433/chinese-canadians-communist-party-influence/
> (this is a Canadian TV network)
> >>Hint: David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series which takes place 100 years
> >>after a successful Chinese "decapitation strike" against Western
> >>leadership very much >ISN'T< a utopia! (I thought it was a pretty good
> >>read but it would NOT have been somewhere many of us would want to
> >>live)
> >
> >Is he Chinese?
> He's a British science fiction writer.. So far as I'm aware he's the
> only one outside the alternate history genre who was written a Chinese
> world empire scenario.

Perhaps not the first, but here's one much older that I've read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon_2419_A.D.

Other "threats from the East," here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril#Literary_Yellow_Peril

--
Kevin R

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 11:01:56 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 10:07:34 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> If you want a war between the US and China you are so many kinds of
>> stupid that there isn't a large enough number to count them.
>
>Oh, no. Just as I didn't want a war between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, I want
>China to be effectively deterred from invading Taiwan, just as the Soviet Union
>was effectively deterred from invading western Europe, so that a war doesn't
>happen.
>
>What is most likely to cause a war is if the Chinese leadership gets any misguided
>notions about American resolve. As long as they know it is unshakeable, nothing bad
>will happen.

In other words you want a miracle.

The Soviet Union at its peak had an economy about 1/4 that of NATO. It
wasn't NATO deterring the Soviet Union from invading, it was the
Soviet Union deterring NATO. They knew that if NATO ever said "roll
tanks" it was all over. I mean the effing Nazis had made it to the
outskirts of Moscow with a two-front war going on--in a single-front
war without nuclear weapons NATO would have hammered them flat.

But it's not like that with China. China has economic parity with the
US and by the time they have per capita parity their economy will be
on the order of twice that of the US and EU combined. The Chinese are
going to be able to do what they want to do where and when they want
to do it. Taiwan you can write off--right now the US is still a
credible threat. 50 years from now it won't be.

We aren't going to be the big dog in the 21st century, we're going to
be a little tiny also-ran.

On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 2:35:32 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> Taiwan you can write off--right now the US is still a
> credible threat. 50 years from now it won't be.

> We aren't going to be the big dog in the 21st century, we're going to
> be a little tiny also-ran.

Such unpleasant eventualities certainly are possible, even if I prefer not
to dwell on them. I urge the American people to stand up, and do what
is necessary, such as getting their educational system back in order, to
prevent such a dire eventuality.

John Savard

On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:02:50 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Nov 2021 01:17:21 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
><jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:28:22 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 16:02:50 -0800, The Horny Goat <lcr...@home.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> >Hint: David Wingrove's Chung Kuo series which takes place 100 years
>>> >after a successful Chinese "decapitation strike" against Western
>>> >leadership very much >ISN'T< a utopia! (I thought it was a pretty good
>>> >read but it would NOT have been somewhere many of us would want to
>>> >live)
>>
>>> Is he Chinese?
>>
>>I see your point. If he isn't Chinese, how would he _really_ understand
>>the Chinese culture.

So presumably by that 'logic' only Germans or Russians could write
books about WW2 on the eastern front (1941-45) which meant Communist
revisionism before 1991 (Yes I read Chuikov's books on Stalingrad and
Berlin. Let's just say that these Soviet era histories were a BIT
different than how Western writers have written them! And said as much
about the early Brezhnev era when they were written than 1942 and
1945)

>>In any case, the future depicted in the Chung Kuo novels is one based on
>>Imperial China, which is long since departed, not Communist China. So
>>that limits its relevance.

It's a 'science fiction' series of novels for heaven's sake. And were
written during a period in recent history when it was being seriously
argued that China at that time was driven more by Confucius than Mao.

No question Wingrove is one of those who argues "it's all about power
and political principles be damned".

>>Generally speaking, I am willing to accept that because of the threat of
>>things like Mongol invasions, the Chinese have been willing to put up with
>>a lot from their governments. But even they have their limits, hence the
>>downfall of the Qing dynasty - where the Manchurians ruled, forced the
>>Chinese to wear pigtails, and so on.
>>
>>But the issue of whether the Chinese people would "welcome us as liberators"
>>is _not_ one I am terribly concerned with. As long as the Tibetans and the
>>Uighurs welcome us as liberators,

I don't see any credible post-1949 scenario that leaves either the US
or NATO or even Russia in control of significant portions of China
that don't involve glowing in the dark. (And I say that as somebody
with his 25 year pin from soc.history.what-if which is all about
exploring counterfactuals) I >have< read stories that involve Chinese
conquest of portions of Siberia with the ceasefire line being
somewhere between Lake Baikal and the Urals.

>So now your plan is to get into another war in Asia. Do the world a
>favor, go step on a land mine and if you survive get back to us on how
>wonderful war is as a solution to political disagreements.
>
>>and the people of Taiwan are happy that they
>>won't be forced to submit to the mainland regime... how the ordinary Chinese
>>civilians may feel is as relevant as how ordinary German civilians felt when
>>V-E Day happened. China isn't *just* a dictatorship which doesn't conform to
>>the "American Way", it's also an *agressor nation*.

Uh you must be reading a different news feed than I am since the one
I'm reading shows Beijing bullying Taipei on a nearly daily basis.

As for May 1945 in Germany my guess is that most Germans were chiefly
glad the shooting had stopped. I don't think your comparison holds
water.