dostaan-i-3aziizii,

I am wondering what our resident poets Irfan Abid SaaHib and Raj Kumar SaaHib as well as learned members of the forum think of the following rhymes.

agarchih zauq-i-tamkinat kaa liHaaz rakhtaa huuN, saltanat kaa
xudaa ne qaa'im kiye haiN darje, xayaal hai Hadd-i-manzilat kaa
.............................................................................................sakat kaa
................................................................................................gat kaa
............................................................................................chhat kaa
saNvaare xvud aap hii ne putle aur un meN kunjii lagaa'ii Gharbii
lage vuh jab naachne uchhalne, kisii ko pheNkaa, kisii ko paTkaa!

..........................................................

kahtaa hai Miir tujh ko yaaN yih* nah kar tuu vah kar
par ho sake jo pyaare, dil meN bhii Tuk jagah kar

Miir

* Perhaps, I should have transliterated "yih" as "yah" here. In Miir's time, perhaps the pronunciation was "yah" and "vah". Any thoughts on this?

...........................................................

sharii3at kii xidmat kaa sab se lagaa'o
tariiqat kii lazzat pai-i-"man yashaa'u"

Akbar Ilaahabadi

Here, "o" is being rhymed with "u" which is the correct pronunciation, but I suppose in ordinary everyday pronunciation one would pronounce "yashaa'o"

Similarly, by the same poet...

shirk chaahe bahaa'e meraa lahuu
maiN nah chhoRuuN gaa "laa shariika lahu"

Akbar Ilaahabadi

nah bahte ashk to taasiir meN sivaa hote
sadaf meN rahte yih motii to be-bahaa hote
janaab-i-Hazrat-i-naasiH kaa vaah kyaa kahnaa
jo ek baat nah hotii to auliyaa* hote

* auliyaa' normally has a hamzah at the end, which has been dropped here.
...................................................

ko'ii martaa hai kyoN, balaa jaane
ham bahuu-beTiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN

Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi

.....................................................

kahaaN kaa gyaan aur dhyaan kaisaa, xudaa kahaaN kaa kahaaN ke vishnu(u)
3amal ke badle isii kaa Ghul hai "bi-biiN-o-bishnau, bi-biiN-o-bishnau"

Akbar Ilaahabadi

I don't know how/why "u"/"uu" can rhyme with "au"?

.......................................................

yih sust hai to phir kyaa vuh tez hai to phir kyaa
neTiv jo hai to phir kyaa aNgrez hai to phir kyaa

manzil vahii hai jis ko nabiyoN ne hai bataayaa
isTiim hai to phir kyaa mihmiiz hai to phir kyaa
................................................................

buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai

Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi

hamaare musliH agar yahii haiN badal hii deN ge mizaaj-i-Lailii
yih mashvare de rahe haiN Hazrat kih bhej do Qais ko Barelii

Akbar Ilaahabadi

..................................................................

Naseer

On Sunday, 16 May 2021 at 17:39:14 UTC+1, Naseer wrote:
> dostaan-i-3aziizii,
>
> I am wondering what our resident poets Irfan Abid SaaHib and Raj Kumar SaaHib as well as learned members of the forum think of the following rhymes.
>
> agarchih zauq-i-tamkinat kaa liHaaz rakhtaa huuN, saltanat kaa
> xudaa ne qaa'im kiye haiN darje, xayaal hai Hadd-i-manzilat kaa
> ............................................................................................sakat kaa
> ...............................................................................................gat kaa
> ...........................................................................................chhat kaa
> saNvaare xvud aap hii ne putle aur un meN kunjii lagaa'ii Gharbii
> lage vuh jab naachne uchhalne, kisii ko pheNkaa, kisii ko paTkaa!
>
> .........................................................
>
> kahtaa hai Miir tujh ko yaaN yih* nah kar tuu vah kar
> par ho sake jo pyaare, dil meN bhii Tuk jagah kar
>
> Miir
>
> * Perhaps, I should have transliterated "yih" as "yah" here. In Miir's time, perhaps the pronunciation was "yah" and "vah". Any thoughts on this?
>
> ..........................................................
>
> sharii3at kii xidmat kaa sab se lagaa'o
> tariiqat kii lazzat pai-i-"man yashaa'u"
>
> Akbar Ilaahabadi
>
> Here, "o" is being rhymed with "u" which is the correct pronunciation, but I suppose in ordinary everyday pronunciation one would pronounce "yashaa'o"
>
> Similarly, by the same poet...
>
> shirk chaahe bahaa'e meraa lahuu
> maiN nah chhoRuuN gaa "laa shariika lahu"
>
> Akbar Ilaahabadi
>
> nah bahte ashk to taasiir meN sivaa hote
> sadaf meN rahte yih motii to be-bahaa hote
> janaab-i-Hazrat-i-naasiH kaa vaah kyaa kahnaa
> jo ek baat nah hotii to auliyaa* hote
>
> * auliyaa' normally has a hamzah at the end, which has been dropped here.
> ..................................................
>
> ko'ii martaa hai kyoN, balaa jaane
> ham bahuu-beTiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
>
> Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
>
> ....................................................
>
> kahaaN kaa gyaan aur dhyaan kaisaa, xudaa kahaaN kaa kahaaN ke vishnu(u)
> 3amal ke badle isii kaa Ghul hai "bi-biiN-o-bishnau, bi-biiN-o-bishnau"
>
> Akbar Ilaahabadi
>
> I don't know how/why "u"/"uu" can rhyme with "au"?
>
> ......................................................
>
> yih sust hai to phir kyaa vuh tez hai to phir kyaa
> neTiv jo hai to phir kyaa aNgrez hai to phir kyaa
>
> manzil vahii hai jis ko nabiyoN ne hai bataayaa
> isTiim hai to phir kyaa mihmiiz hai to phir kyaa
> ...............................................................
>
> buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
> ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai
>
> Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
>
> hamaare musliH agar yahii haiN badal hii deN ge mizaaj-i-Lailii
> yih mashvare de rahe haiN Hazrat kih bhej do Qais ko Barelii
>
> Akbar Ilaahabadi
>
> .................................................................
>
> Naseer

Friends, please don't respond with your views all at once! I need time to look at each reply and give it some thought before I can answer!:-)

Naseer

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 9:39:14 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> dostaan-i-3aziizii,
>
> I am wondering what our resident poets Irfan Abid SaaHib and Raj Kumar SaaHib as well as learned members of the forum think of the following rhymes.

***Huzuur, aap ke savaaloN ka javaab ko'ii de bhi to kyaa de? aap ke savaal to jahaan bhar se niyaare haiN!*** :-)

> agarchih zauq-i-tamkinat kaa liHaaz rakhtaa huuN, saltanat kaa
> xudaa ne qaa'im kiye haiN darje, xayaal hai Hadd-i-manzilat kaa
> ............................................................................................sakat kaa
> ...............................................................................................gat kaa
> ...........................................................................................chhat kaa
> saNvaare xvud aap hii ne putle aur un meN kunjii lagaa'ii Gharbii
> lage vuh jab naachne uchhalne, kisii ko pheNkaa, kisii ko paTkaa!
***ain mumkin hai k Miir ke zamaane meN lafz "paTaknaa" ki bajaaye "pataknaa" bhi ravaa tha. agar aisa tha to yahaaN lafz "patkaa" se kaam chal saktaa hai. albatta, daur-e-Haazir meN aisi ravish ka maqaam nahiiN hai!***
> kahtaa hai Miir tujh ko yaaN yih* nah kar tuu vah kar
> par ho sake jo pyaare, dil meN bhii Tuk jagah kar

***"tu vah kar" vs "jagah kar"? I don't know about others but I'll stay away from this sort of a qaafiya-paimaa'ii!*** :-(
>
> shirk chaahe bahaa'e meraa lahuu
> maiN nah chhoRuuN gaa "laa shariika lahu"
>
> Akbar Ilaahabadi

***No problem here, so long as you write "mera lahuu" instead of "meraa lahuu"!***
> nah bahte ashk to taasiir meN sivaa hote
> sadaf meN rahte yih motii to be-bahaa hote
> janaab-i-Hazrat-i-naasiH kaa vaah kyaa kahnaa
> jo ek baat nah hotii to auliyaa* hote
>
> * auliyaa' normally has a hamzah at the end, which has been dropped here.

***mere pyaare Bhole Nath, lafz 'auliyaa' ka hamza to kab ka gir chukaa. daur-e-Haazir meN to aap charaaGh le kar bhi DhuuNDheN to yeh hamza kahiiN nahiiN milne ka! :-(

kahne ka matlab yeh k mundaraja-baalaa qaafiya bar-Haq hai.***
> ko'ii martaa hai kyoN, balaa jaane
> ham bahuu-beTiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
>
> Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi

***jaan-e-man, 'jaane' aur 'jaaneN' kisi suurat ham-qaafiya nahiiN ho sakte. Mirza Shauq L. ne agar aise alfaaz ko ham-qaafiya samjhaa hai to unheN ko'ii "majbuurii" hogi. ;-)

aage aap samajh-daar haiN!***

>
> kahaaN kaa gyaan aur dhyaan kaisaa, xudaa kahaaN kaa kahaaN ke vishnu(u)
> 3amal ke badle isii kaa Ghul hai "bi-biiN-o-bishnau, bi-biiN-o-bishnau"
>
> Akbar Ilaahabadi
>
> I don't know how/why "u"/"uu" can rhyme with "au"?
>
***My (semi-intelligent) guess is that Akbar I. read these words as "vishnav" and "bi-shanav". What do you think?***

> ......................................................
>
> yih sust hai to phir kyaa vuh tez hai to phir kyaa
> neTiv jo hai to phir kyaa aNgrez hai to phir kyaa
>
> manzil vahii hai jis ko nabiyoN ne hai bataayaa
> isTiim hai to phir kyaa mihmiiz hai to phir kyaa

***Take it easy, youngman. You may like to pronounce this word as "mihmiiz" but, according to my sources, the correct pronunciation is "mahmiiz" as well as "mahmez". So, for me, no problem here!***

> buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
> ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai
>
> Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi

***Totally legit this one!***

> hamaare musliH agar yahii haiN badal hii deN ge mizaaj-i-Lailii
> yih mashvare de rahe haiN Hazrat kih bhej do Qais ko Barelii
>
> Akbar Ilaahabadi
***This one is no good ---- unless we say Lailii and Brailii or Barelii and Lelii. ise kahte haiN, "har do la'anat"!

to yeh rahe aap ke 'ameeq savaalaat par mujh "dihaatii" ke seedhe-saade javaabaat. ab aap kisi taraH Abid sahib ko idhar laaiye taa-k baat aage baRhe! :-)

aap ki hiteshii, Raj Kumar***

Greetings!

I found this thread fascinating.

Pronunciation does vary greatly across regions and across time. "Vah" is shown with alternative pronunciations in the Oxford Hindi English Dictionary. At least one of these pronunciations fits in with the rhyme scheme in question, and I have heard Indians use this pronunciation frequently.

On "Vishnu" - RK Sahib, did you mean it should be read as the word "Vaishnav" as in Gandhi Ji's favorite song "Vaishnav jan to"? Did you shorten that to "Vishnav" for metrical reasons?

Regards,

Nagesh

On Monday, May 24, 2021 at 10:07:47 PM UTC-7, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 9:39:14 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > dostaan-i-3aziizii,
> >
> > I am wondering what our resident poets Irfan Abid SaaHib and Raj Kumar SaaHib as well as learned members of the forum think of the following rhymes.
> ***Huzuur, aap ke savaaloN ka javaab ko'ii de bhi to kyaa de? aap ke savaal to jahaan bhar se niyaare haiN!*** :-)
> > agarchih zauq-i-tamkinat kaa liHaaz rakhtaa huuN, saltanat kaa
> > xudaa ne qaa'im kiye haiN darje, xayaal hai Hadd-i-manzilat kaa
> > .............................................................................................sakat kaa
> > ................................................................................................gat kaa
> > ............................................................................................chhat kaa
> > saNvaare xvud aap hii ne putle aur un meN kunjii lagaa'ii Gharbii
> > lage vuh jab naachne uchhalne, kisii ko pheNkaa, kisii ko paTkaa!
> ***ain mumkin hai k Miir ke zamaane meN lafz "paTaknaa" ki bajaaye "pataknaa" bhi ravaa tha. agar aisa tha to yahaaN lafz "patkaa" se kaam chal saktaa hai. albatta, daur-e-Haazir meN aisi ravish ka maqaam nahiiN hai!***
> > kahtaa hai Miir tujh ko yaaN yih* nah kar tuu vah kar
> > par ho sake jo pyaare, dil meN bhii Tuk jagah kar
> ***"tu vah kar" vs "jagah kar"? I don't know about others but I'll stay away from this sort of a qaafiya-paimaa'ii!*** :-(
> >
> > shirk chaahe bahaa'e meraa lahuu
> > maiN nah chhoRuuN gaa "laa shariika lahu"
> >
> > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> ***No problem here, so long as you write "mera lahuu" instead of "meraa lahuu"!***
> > nah bahte ashk to taasiir meN sivaa hote
> > sadaf meN rahte yih motii to be-bahaa hote
> > janaab-i-Hazrat-i-naasiH kaa vaah kyaa kahnaa
> > jo ek baat nah hotii to auliyaa* hote
> >
> > * auliyaa' normally has a hamzah at the end, which has been dropped here.
> ***mere pyaare Bhole Nath, lafz 'auliyaa' ka hamza to kab ka gir chukaa. daur-e-Haazir meN to aap charaaGh le kar bhi DhuuNDheN to yeh hamza kahiiN nahiiN milne ka! :-(
>
> kahne ka matlab yeh k mundaraja-baalaa qaafiya bar-Haq hai.***
> > ko'ii martaa hai kyoN, balaa jaane
> > ham bahuu-beTiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
> >
> > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
> ***jaan-e-man, 'jaane' aur 'jaaneN' kisi suurat ham-qaafiya nahiiN ho sakte. Mirza Shauq L. ne agar aise alfaaz ko ham-qaafiya samjhaa hai to unheN ko'ii "majbuurii" hogi. ;-)
>
> aage aap samajh-daar haiN!***
> >
> > kahaaN kaa gyaan aur dhyaan kaisaa, xudaa kahaaN kaa kahaaN ke vishnu(u)
> > 3amal ke badle isii kaa Ghul hai "bi-biiN-o-bishnau, bi-biiN-o-bishnau"
> >
> > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> >
> > I don't know how/why "u"/"uu" can rhyme with "au"?
> >
> ***My (semi-intelligent) guess is that Akbar I. read these words as "vishnav" and "bi-shanav". What do you think?***
> > ......................................................
> >
> > yih sust hai to phir kyaa vuh tez hai to phir kyaa
> > neTiv jo hai to phir kyaa aNgrez hai to phir kyaa
> >
> > manzil vahii hai jis ko nabiyoN ne hai bataayaa
> > isTiim hai to phir kyaa mihmiiz hai to phir kyaa
> ***Take it easy, youngman. You may like to pronounce this word as "mihmiiz" but, according to my sources, the correct pronunciation is "mahmiiz" as well as "mahmez". So, for me, no problem here!***
> > buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
> > ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai
> >
> > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
> ***Totally legit this one!***
> > hamaare musliH agar yahii haiN badal hii deN ge mizaaj-i-Lailii
> > yih mashvare de rahe haiN Hazrat kih bhej do Qais ko Barelii
> >
> > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> ***This one is no good ---- unless we say Lailii and Brailii or Barelii and Lelii. ise kahte haiN, "har do la'anat"!
>
> to yeh rahe aap ke 'ameeq savaalaat par mujh "dihaatii" ke seedhe-saade javaabaat. ab aap kisi taraH Abid sahib ko idhar laaiye taa-k baat aage baRhe! :-)
>
> aap ki hiteshii, Raj Kumar***

Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai

On Tuesday, 25 May 2021 at 06:07:47 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 9:39:14 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > dostaan-i-3aziizii,
> >
> > I am wondering what our resident poets Irfan Abid SaaHib and Raj Kumar SaaHib as well as learned members of the forum think of the following rhymes.
> ***Huzuur, aap ke savaaloN ka javaab ko'ii de bhi to kyaa de? aap ke savaal to jahaan bhar se niyaare haiN!*** :-)

is laRii par nigaah-i-karam Daalne par maiN aap kaa shukr-guzaar huuN۔ maanaa kih savaalaat "jahaan bhar se niyaare" hii sahii lekin in kii qadr to aap jaise guhar-shinaas hii kar sakte haiN!:-) ab dekhte haiN Irfan SaaHib apne jauhar dikhaane ke liye is maidaan meN kab kuudeN ge:-)

> > agarchih zauq-i-tamkinat kaa liHaaz rakhtaa huuN, saltanat kaa
> > xudaa ne qaa'im kiye haiN darje, xayaal hai Hadd-i-manzilat kaa
> > .............................................................................................sakat kaa
> > ................................................................................................gat kaa
> > ............................................................................................chhat kaa
> > saNvaare xvud aap hii ne putle aur un meN kunjii lagaa'ii Gharbii
> > lage vuh jab naachne uchhalne, kisii ko pheNkaa, kisii ko paTkaa!

> ***ain mumkin hai k Miir ke zamaane meN lafz "paTaknaa" ki bajaaye "pataknaa" bhi ravaa tha. agar aisa tha to yahaaN lafz "patkaa" se kaam chal saktaa hai. albatta, daur-e-Haazir meN aisi ravish ka maqaam nahiiN hai!***

mujhe masdar "pataknaa" kisii bhii luGhat meN nahiiN milaa. maziid bar aaN, yih ash3aar Akbar Ilaahabaadi ke haiN. shaa3ir kaa naam nah likhne kii chuuk mujh se ho ga'ii hai. ma3zirat-xvaah huuN. so, yuuN lagtaa hai Akbar ke nazdiik t/T kaa qaafiyah jaa'iz hai. (?)

> > kahtaa hai Miir tujh ko yaaN yih* nah kar tuu vah kar
> > par ho sake jo pyaare, dil meN bhii Tuk jagah kar

> ***"tu vah kar" vs "jagah kar"? I don't know about others but I'll stay away from this sort of a qaafiya-paimaa'ii!*** :-(
> >

lekin kyoN Raj Kumar SaaHib? agar farz kar leN kih Miir ke zamaane meN "yah", "vah" ba-jaa'e aaj ke "yih/vuh" barte jaate the to in ke saath "jagah" jaisaa lafz kyoN nahiiN laayaa jaa saktaa?

> > shirk chaahe bahaa'e meraa lahuu
> > maiN nah chhoRuuN gaa "laa shariika lahu"
> >
> > Akbar Ilaahabadi

> ***No problem here, so long as you write "mera lahuu" instead of "meraa lahuu"!***

meraa savaal bi_lxusuus لَہُو ko لَهُ ke saath ham-qaafiyah banaane se muta3aiiqah thaa. agar meraa ko mera karne se Hisaab baraabar ho jaataa hai, to Thiik hai.

> > nah bahte ashk to taasiir meN sivaa hote
> > sadaf meN rahte yih motii to be-bahaa hote
> > janaab-i-Hazrat-i-naasiH kaa vaah kyaa kahnaa
> > jo ek baat nah hotii to auliyaa* hote
> >
> > * auliyaa' normally has a hamzah at the end, which has been dropped here.

> ***mere pyaare Bhole Nath, lafz 'auliyaa' ka hamza to kab ka gir chukaa. daur-e-Haazir meN to aap charaaGh le kar bhi DhuuNDheN to yeh hamza kahiiN nahiiN milne ka! :-(
> kahne ka matlab yeh k mundaraja-baalaa qaafiya bar-Haq hai.***

yaqiin-an aap kaa ishaarah shaa3irii kii jaanib ho gaa, nah kih nasr... yaa kih har-do?

aap jaante haiN kih 3arabii alfaaz kaa yih hamzah ek juzv-i-laa-budda hai. ise giraa dene kii mantiq mujhe durust ma3luum hotii hai kyoNkih agar vaaHid meN hamzah hai, to jam3 meN bhii hamzah laazimii aa'e gaa aur agar vaaHid se ise xaarij kar diyaa gayaa hai to jam3 meN ise kyoNkar jagah mil saktii hai? yahaaN tak to mujhe is mantiq se ittifaaq hai lekiN Haqiiqat yih hai kih is hamze ko mukammal taur par dafn nahiiN kiyaa jaa sakaa!

masal-an shai' > ashyaa'
juz' > ajzaa'
valii' > auliyaa'

in sab alfaaz kii vaaHid Haisiyyat meN hamzah nahiiN likhaa jaataa. (shaayad juz ba-shakl-i-juz' dikhaa'ii detaa hai). mere xayaal meN Urdu meN 3arabii alfaaz meN jahaaN hamzah aaxirii maqaam par aataa hai, vuh alfaaz ab bhii hamzah ke saath aur hamzah ke baGhair likhe jaa rahe haiN.

Another interesting one, once again from Akbar.

sharii3at kii xidmat kaa sab se lagaa'o
tariiqat kii lazzat pai-i-"man yashaa'u" (مَن یشاءُ)

> > ko'ii martaa hai kyoN, balaa jaane
> > ham bahuu-beTiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
> >
> > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
> ***jaan-e-man, 'jaane' aur 'jaaneN' kisi suurat ham-qaafiya nahiiN ho sakte. Mirza Shauq L. ne agar aise alfaaz ko ham-qaafiya samjhaa hai to unheN ko'ii "majbuurii" hogi. ;-)
>
> aage aap samajh-daar haiN!***
> >

itnii samajh-buujh hotii to aap jaise asaatizaa ko mere savaaloN kii takliif kyoN gavaaraa karnii paRtii?:-) kaisii majbuurii Raj Kumar SaaHib? kyaa Shauq ke paa'e kaa shaa3ir yaksaaN qafiyah (jaane yaa jaaneN donoN misr3oN meN) nahiiN laa saktaa thaa?

An example of jaane/jaaneN type..

chuun tu juzv-i-3aalam-ii pas ai mahiiN
kull raa bar vasf-i-xvud biinii Ghavii

Rumi (Masnavi-i-Ma3navi V4 P228)

> > kahaaN kaa gyaan aur dhyaan kaisaa, xudaa kahaaN kaa kahaaN ke vishnu(u)
> > 3amal ke badle isii kaa Ghul hai "bi-biiN-o-bishnau, bi-biiN-o-bishnau"
> >
> > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> >
> > I don't know how/why "u"/"uu" can rhyme with "au"?
> >
> ***My (semi-intelligent) guess is that Akbar read these words as "vishnav" and "bi-shanav". What do you think?***
> >
> >

Well, to the best of my knowledge, the first word is a proper name विष्णु that is written in Urdu as وِشنُو vishnuu when the hyper-correct word should be وِشنُ or instead of the dotted nuun, a little to'e placed above the nuun-dot to indicate it is a retroflez sound. The second word is a Persian imperative (fi3l amr) which should end with an "au" dipthong as in "pau" (pau phaTnaa). I can not understand how poetic license would allow a proper name and that too of a god to be changed to Vishnau so that it can be rhymed with "bi-shinau > bishnau"!

> > yih sust hai to phir kyaa vuh tez hai to phir kyaa
> > neTiv jo hai to phir kyaa aNgrez hai to phir kyaa
> >
> > manzil vahii hai jis ko nabiyoN ne hai bataayaa
> > isTiim hai to phir kyaa mihmiiz hai to phir kyaa

> ***Take it easy, youngman. You may like to pronounce this word as "mihmiiz" but, according to my sources, the correct pronunciation is "mahmiiz" as well as "mahmez". So, for me, no problem here!***

ٖFor some reason, I have always thought of this word as "mihmiiz" and this is how the pronunciation is provided in Urdu LuGhat. Platts also initially gives the word as "mihmiiz" but than provides the alternative "mahmez".. Please allow me to add a little about its etymology.

Originally this word is based on the Arabic pattern "mif3aal" which is one of the patterns to provide words used for instruments and tools, e.g misvaak, mizraab, minqaar etc etc. In this case, the word for a "spur" is "mihmaaz". By a process known as "imaalah", the Persians changed this word to "mihmez" (the alif-i-mamduudah has been changed to yaa-i-majhuul). So, the change from "mihmez" to "mahmez" is not logical to my mind but languages do not always adhere to logic!

> > buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
> > ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai
> >
> > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi

> ***Totally legit this one!***

Yes, I agree and I knew of the "feminine" version of "Lailaa" but decided to add this shi3r to the list as the usual pronunciation for your (Qais's) beloved is Lailaa and not Lailii in Urdu. However, as uncommon as this might be, it has come into Urdu poetry via Persian.

zahe! naa-diidah az xuubaan kase misl-i-tu dar xaile (xuubaaN?)
agar ruu-i-tura diide cho man majnuun shude laile (majnuuN)

AuHadii

> > hamaare musliH agar yahii haiN badal hii deN ge mizaaj-i-Lailii
> > yih mashvare de rahe haiN Hazrat kih bhej do Qais ko Barelii
> >
> > Akbar Ilaahabadi

> ***This one is no good ---- unless we say Lailii and Brailii or Barelii and Lelii. ise kahte haiN, "har do la'anat"!

I too find "Lailii" and "Barelii" rhyme difficult to swallow. If we go down the route of Lailii/Barailii, a proper name is being changed to suit the rhyme scheme. If we think of the words as "Lelii" and "Barelii", how does one end up with the word "Lelii"? If we apply the "imaalah rule", "Lailaa" can be changed to "Laile" but not "Lelii" which in my language means a female young goat/sheep!:-)

> to yeh rahe aap ke 'ameeq savaalaat par mujh "dihaatii" ke seedhe-saade javaabaat. ab aap kisi taraH Abid sahib ko idhar laaiye taa-k baat aage baRhe! :-)

janaab, agar aap dihaatii haiN (vaise mujhe ma3luum hai kih aap "shahrii" haiN) to maiN TheTh "peNDuu" huuN! isii liye to maiN bhaiNsoN aur leliyoN kii baateN kartaa huuN!:-)
>
> aap ki hiteshii, Raj Kumar***

On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 2:12:38 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai
> On Tuesday, 25 May 2021 at 06:07:47 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 9:39:14 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > > dostaan-i-3aziizii,
> > >
> > > I am wondering what our resident poets Irfan Abid SaaHib and Raj Kumar SaaHib as well as learned members of the forum think of the following rhymes.
> > ***Huzuur, aap ke savaaloN ka javaab ko'ii de bhi to kyaa de? aap ke savaal to jahaan bhar se niyaare haiN!*** :-)
> is laRii par nigaah-i-karam Daalne par maiN aap kaa shukr-guzaar huuN۔ maanaa kih savaalaat "jahaan bhar se niyaare" hii sahii lekin in kii qadr to aap jaise guhar-shinaas hii kar sakte haiN!:-) ab dekhte haiN Irfan SaaHib apne jauhar dikhaane ke liye is maidaan meN kab kuudeN ge:-)
> > > agarchih zauq-i-tamkinat kaa liHaaz rakhtaa huuN, saltanat kaa
> > > xudaa ne qaa'im kiye haiN darje, xayaal hai Hadd-i-manzilat kaa
> > > .............................................................................................sakat kaa
> > > ................................................................................................gat kaa
> > > ............................................................................................chhat kaa
> > > saNvaare xvud aap hii ne putle aur un meN kunjii lagaa'ii Gharbii
> > > lage vuh jab naachne uchhalne, kisii ko pheNkaa, kisii ko paTkaa!
>
> > ***ain mumkin hai k Miir ke zamaane meN lafz "paTaknaa" ki bajaaye "pataknaa" bhi ravaa tha. agar aisa tha to yahaaN lafz "patkaa" se kaam chal saktaa hai. albatta, daur-e-Haazir meN aisi ravish ka maqaam nahiiN hai!***
> mujhe masdar "pataknaa" kisii bhii luGhat meN nahiiN milaa. maziid bar aaN, yih ash3aar Akbar Ilaahabaadi ke haiN. shaa3ir kaa naam nah likhne kii chuuk mujh se ho ga'ii hai. ma3zirat-xvaah huuN. so, yuuN lagtaa hai Akbar ke nazdiik t/T kaa qaafiyah jaa'iz hai. (?)
> > > kahtaa hai Miir tujh ko yaaN yih* nah kar tuu vah kar
> > > par ho sake jo pyaare, dil meN bhii Tuk jagah kar
>
> > ***"tu vah kar" vs "jagah kar"? I don't know about others but I'll stay away from this sort of a qaafiya-paimaa'ii!*** :-(
> > >
> lekin kyoN Raj Kumar SaaHib? agar farz kar leN kih Miir ke zamaane meN "yah", "vah" ba-jaa'e aaj ke "yih/vuh" barte jaate the to in ke saath "jagah" jaisaa lafz kyoN nahiiN laayaa jaa saktaa?
> > > shirk chaahe bahaa'e meraa lahuu
> > > maiN nah chhoRuuN gaa "laa shariika lahu"
> > >
> > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
>
> > ***No problem here, so long as you write "mera lahuu" instead of "meraa lahuu"!***
> meraa savaal bi_lxusuus لَہُو ko لَهُ ke saath ham-qaafiyah banaane se muta3aiiqah thaa. agar meraa ko mera karne se Hisaab baraabar ho jaataa hai, to Thiik hai.
> > > nah bahte ashk to taasiir meN sivaa hote
> > > sadaf meN rahte yih motii to be-bahaa hote
> > > janaab-i-Hazrat-i-naasiH kaa vaah kyaa kahnaa
> > > jo ek baat nah hotii to auliyaa* hote
> > >
> > > * auliyaa' normally has a hamzah at the end, which has been dropped here.
>
> > ***mere pyaare Bhole Nath, lafz 'auliyaa' ka hamza to kab ka gir chukaa.. daur-e-Haazir meN to aap charaaGh le kar bhi DhuuNDheN to yeh hamza kahiiN nahiiN milne ka! :-(
> > kahne ka matlab yeh k mundaraja-baalaa qaafiya bar-Haq hai.***
> yaqiin-an aap kaa ishaarah shaa3irii kii jaanib ho gaa, nah kih nasr... yaa kih har-do?
>
> aap jaante haiN kih 3arabii alfaaz kaa yih hamzah ek juzv-i-laa-budda hai.. ise giraa dene kii mantiq mujhe durust ma3luum hotii hai kyoNkih agar vaaHid meN hamzah hai, to jam3 meN bhii hamzah laazimii aa'e gaa aur agar vaaHid se ise xaarij kar diyaa gayaa hai to jam3 meN ise kyoNkar jagah mil saktii hai? yahaaN tak to mujhe is mantiq se ittifaaq hai lekiN Haqiiqat yih hai kih is hamze ko mukammal taur par dafn nahiiN kiyaa jaa sakaa!
>
> masal-an shai' > ashyaa'
> juz' > ajzaa'
> valii' > auliyaa'
>
> in sab alfaaz kii vaaHid Haisiyyat meN hamzah nahiiN likhaa jaataa. (shaayad juz ba-shakl-i-juz' dikhaa'ii detaa hai). mere xayaal meN Urdu meN 3arabii alfaaz meN jahaaN hamzah aaxirii maqaam par aataa hai, vuh alfaaz ab bhii hamzah ke saath aur hamzah ke baGhair likhe jaa rahe haiN.
>
> Another interesting one, once again from Akbar.
> sharii3at kii xidmat kaa sab se lagaa'o
> tariiqat kii lazzat pai-i-"man yashaa'u" (مَن یشاءُ)
> > > ko'ii martaa hai kyoN, balaa jaane
> > > ham bahuu-beTiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
> > >
> > > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
> > ***jaan-e-man, 'jaane' aur 'jaaneN' kisi suurat ham-qaafiya nahiiN ho sakte. Mirza Shauq L. ne agar aise alfaaz ko ham-qaafiya samjhaa hai to unheN ko'ii "majbuurii" hogi. ;-)
> >
> > aage aap samajh-daar haiN!***
> > >
> itnii samajh-buujh hotii to aap jaise asaatizaa ko mere savaaloN kii takliif kyoN gavaaraa karnii paRtii?:-) kaisii majbuurii Raj Kumar SaaHib? kyaa Shauq ke paa'e kaa shaa3ir yaksaaN qafiyah (jaane yaa jaaneN donoN misr3oN meN) nahiiN laa saktaa thaa?
>
> An example of jaane/jaaneN type..
>
> chuun tu juzv-i-3aalam-ii pas ai mahiiN
> kull raa bar vasf-i-xvud biinii Ghavii
>
> Rumi (Masnavi-i-Ma3navi V4 P228)
> > > kahaaN kaa gyaan aur dhyaan kaisaa, xudaa kahaaN kaa kahaaN ke vishnu(u)
> > > 3amal ke badle isii kaa Ghul hai "bi-biiN-o-bishnau, bi-biiN-o-bishnau"
> > >
> > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> > >
> > > I don't know how/why "u"/"uu" can rhyme with "au"?
> > >
> > ***My (semi-intelligent) guess is that Akbar read these words as "vishnav" and "bi-shanav". What do you think?***
> > >
> > >
>
> Well, to the best of my knowledge, the first word is a proper name विष्णु that is written in Urdu as وِشنُو vishnuu when the hyper-correct word should be وِشنُ or instead of the dotted nuun, a little to'e placed above the nuun-dot to indicate it is a retroflez sound. The second word is a Persian imperative (fi3l amr) which should end with an "au" dipthong as in "pau" (pau phaTnaa). I can not understand how poetic license would allow a proper name and that too of a god to be changed to Vishnau so that it can be rhymed with "bi-shinau > bishnau"!
> > > yih sust hai to phir kyaa vuh tez hai to phir kyaa
> > > neTiv jo hai to phir kyaa aNgrez hai to phir kyaa
> > >
> > > manzil vahii hai jis ko nabiyoN ne hai bataayaa
> > > isTiim hai to phir kyaa mihmiiz hai to phir kyaa
>
> > ***Take it easy, youngman. You may like to pronounce this word as "mihmiiz" but, according to my sources, the correct pronunciation is "mahmiiz" as well as "mahmez". So, for me, no problem here!***
> ٖFor some reason, I have always thought of this word as "mihmiiz" and this is how the pronunciation is provided in Urdu LuGhat. Platts also initially gives the word as "mihmiiz" but than provides the alternative "mahmez". Please allow me to add a little about its etymology.
>
> Originally this word is based on the Arabic pattern "mif3aal" which is one of the patterns to provide words used for instruments and tools, e.g misvaak, mizraab, minqaar etc etc. In this case, the word for a "spur" is "mihmaaz". By a process known as "imaalah", the Persians changed this word to "mihmez" (the alif-i-mamduudah has been changed to yaa-i-majhuul). So, the change from "mihmez" to "mahmez" is not logical to my mind but languages do not always adhere to logic!
> > > buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
> > > ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai
> > >
> > > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
>
> > ***Totally legit this one!***
> Yes, I agree and I knew of the "feminine" version of "Lailaa" but decided to add this shi3r to the list as the usual pronunciation for your (Qais's) beloved is Lailaa and not Lailii in Urdu. However, as uncommon as this might be, it has come into Urdu poetry via Persian.
>
> zahe! naa-diidah az xuubaan kase misl-i-tu dar xaile (xuubaaN?)
> agar ruu-i-tura diide cho man majnuun shude laile (majnuuN)
>
> AuHadii
> > > hamaare musliH agar yahii haiN badal hii deN ge mizaaj-i-Lailii
> > > yih mashvare de rahe haiN Hazrat kih bhej do Qais ko Barelii
> > >
> > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
>
> > ***This one is no good ---- unless we say Lailii and Brailii or Barelii and Lelii. ise kahte haiN, "har do la'anat"!
> I too find "Lailii" and "Barelii" rhyme difficult to swallow. If we go down the route of Lailii/Barailii, a proper name is being changed to suit the rhyme scheme. If we think of the words as "Lelii" and "Barelii", how does one end up with the word "Lelii"? If we apply the "imaalah rule", "Lailaa" can be changed to "Laile" but not "Lelii" which in my language means a female young goat/sheep!:-)
> > to yeh rahe aap ke 'ameeq savaalaat par mujh "dihaatii" ke seedhe-saade javaabaat. ab aap kisi taraH Abid sahib ko idhar laaiye taa-k baat aage baRhe! :-)
> janaab, agar aap dihaatii haiN (vaise mujhe ma3luum hai kih aap "shahrii" haiN) to maiN TheTh "peNDuu" huuN! isii liye to maiN bhaiNsoN aur leliyoN kii baateN kartaa huuN!:-)
> >
> > aap ki hiteshii, Raj Kumar***
> aap kii posTeN Hindi siikhne kaa achchhaa zarii3ah haiN lekin kyaa aap हितैषी likhnaa chaahte the aur "aap kaa" ba-jaa'e "aap kii"?
>
> Naseer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
yaaraan-e-adab: aadaab!
Please forgive my (perhaps unwanted) intrusion. I don't have the slightest idea about the Arooz expertise of the participants in this laRee. I suspect that much of the confusion is the result of insufficient knowledge of Arooz, specifically that of i"lm-e-qaafiyah and Harf-e-Ravee. Perhaps we should invest some time and effort in that direction. What do you think?

On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 05:49:07 UTC+1, Sarwar A. Raz wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 2:12:38 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> > Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai
> > On Tuesday, 25 May 2021 at 06:07:47 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 9:39:14 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > > > dostaan-i-3aziizii,
> > > >
> > > > I am wondering what our resident poets Irfan Abid SaaHib and Raj Kumar SaaHib as well as learned members of the forum think of the following rhymes.
> > > ***Huzuur, aap ke savaaloN ka javaab ko'ii de bhi to kyaa de? aap ke savaal to jahaan bhar se niyaare haiN!*** :-)
> > is laRii par nigaah-i-karam Daalne par maiN aap kaa shukr-guzaar huuN۔ maanaa kih savaalaat "jahaan bhar se niyaare" hii sahii lekin in kii qadr to aap jaise guhar-shinaas hii kar sakte haiN!:-) ab dekhte haiN Irfan SaaHib apne jauhar dikhaane ke liye is maidaan meN kab kuudeN ge:-)
> > > > agarchih zauq-i-tamkinat kaa liHaaz rakhtaa huuN, saltanat kaa
> > > > xudaa ne qaa'im kiye haiN darje, xayaal hai Hadd-i-manzilat kaa
> > > > .............................................................................................sakat kaa
> > > > ................................................................................................gat kaa
> > > > ............................................................................................chhat kaa
> > > > saNvaare xvud aap hii ne putle aur un meN kunjii lagaa'ii Gharbii
> > > > lage vuh jab naachne uchhalne, kisii ko pheNkaa, kisii ko paTkaa!
> >
> > > ***ain mumkin hai k Miir ke zamaane meN lafz "paTaknaa" ki bajaaye "pataknaa" bhi ravaa tha. agar aisa tha to yahaaN lafz "patkaa" se kaam chal saktaa hai. albatta, daur-e-Haazir meN aisi ravish ka maqaam nahiiN hai!***
> > mujhe masdar "pataknaa" kisii bhii luGhat meN nahiiN milaa. maziid bar aaN, yih ash3aar Akbar Ilaahabaadi ke haiN. shaa3ir kaa naam nah likhne kii chuuk mujh se ho ga'ii hai. ma3zirat-xvaah huuN. so, yuuN lagtaa hai Akbar ke nazdiik t/T kaa qaafiyah jaa'iz hai. (?)
> > > > kahtaa hai Miir tujh ko yaaN yih* nah kar tuu vah kar
> > > > par ho sake jo pyaare, dil meN bhii Tuk jagah kar
> >
> > > ***"tu vah kar" vs "jagah kar"? I don't know about others but I'll stay away from this sort of a qaafiya-paimaa'ii!*** :-(
> > > >
> > lekin kyoN Raj Kumar SaaHib? agar farz kar leN kih Miir ke zamaane meN "yah", "vah" ba-jaa'e aaj ke "yih/vuh" barte jaate the to in ke saath "jagah" jaisaa lafz kyoN nahiiN laayaa jaa saktaa?
> > > > shirk chaahe bahaa'e meraa lahuu
> > > > maiN nah chhoRuuN gaa "laa shariika lahu"
> > > >
> > > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> >
> > > ***No problem here, so long as you write "mera lahuu" instead of "meraa lahuu"!***
> > meraa savaal bi_lxusuus لَہُو ko لَهُ ke saath ham-qaafiyah banaane se muta3aiiqah thaa. agar meraa ko mera karne se Hisaab baraabar ho jaataa hai, to Thiik hai.
> > > > nah bahte ashk to taasiir meN sivaa hote
> > > > sadaf meN rahte yih motii to be-bahaa hote
> > > > janaab-i-Hazrat-i-naasiH kaa vaah kyaa kahnaa
> > > > jo ek baat nah hotii to auliyaa* hote
> > > >
> > > > * auliyaa' normally has a hamzah at the end, which has been dropped here.
> >
> > > ***mere pyaare Bhole Nath, lafz 'auliyaa' ka hamza to kab ka gir chukaa. daur-e-Haazir meN to aap charaaGh le kar bhi DhuuNDheN to yeh hamza kahiiN nahiiN milne ka! :-(
> > > kahne ka matlab yeh k mundaraja-baalaa qaafiya bar-Haq hai.***
> > yaqiin-an aap kaa ishaarah shaa3irii kii jaanib ho gaa, nah kih nasr... yaa kih har-do?
> >
> > aap jaante haiN kih 3arabii alfaaz kaa yih hamzah ek juzv-i-laa-budda hai. ise giraa dene kii mantiq mujhe durust ma3luum hotii hai kyoNkih agar vaaHid meN hamzah hai, to jam3 meN bhii hamzah laazimii aa'e gaa aur agar vaaHid se ise xaarij kar diyaa gayaa hai to jam3 meN ise kyoNkar jagah mil saktii hai? yahaaN tak to mujhe is mantiq se ittifaaq hai lekiN Haqiiqat yih hai kih is hamze ko mukammal taur par dafn nahiiN kiyaa jaa sakaa!
> >
> > masal-an shai' > ashyaa'
> > juz' > ajzaa'
> > valii' > auliyaa'
> >
> > in sab alfaaz kii vaaHid Haisiyyat meN hamzah nahiiN likhaa jaataa. (shaayad juz ba-shakl-i-juz' dikhaa'ii detaa hai). mere xayaal meN Urdu meN 3arabii alfaaz meN jahaaN hamzah aaxirii maqaam par aataa hai, vuh alfaaz ab bhii hamzah ke saath aur hamzah ke baGhair likhe jaa rahe haiN.
> >
> > Another interesting one, once again from Akbar.
> > sharii3at kii xidmat kaa sab se lagaa'o
> > tariiqat kii lazzat pai-i-"man yashaa'u" (مَن یشاءُ)
> > > > ko'ii martaa hai kyoN, balaa jaane
> > > > ham bahuu-beTiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
> > > >
> > > > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
> > > ***jaan-e-man, 'jaane' aur 'jaaneN' kisi suurat ham-qaafiya nahiiN ho sakte. Mirza Shauq L. ne agar aise alfaaz ko ham-qaafiya samjhaa hai to unheN ko'ii "majbuurii" hogi. ;-)
> > >
> > > aage aap samajh-daar haiN!***
> > > >
> > itnii samajh-buujh hotii to aap jaise asaatizaa ko mere savaaloN kii takliif kyoN gavaaraa karnii paRtii?:-) kaisii majbuurii Raj Kumar SaaHib? kyaa Shauq ke paa'e kaa shaa3ir yaksaaN qafiyah (jaane yaa jaaneN donoN misr3oN meN) nahiiN laa saktaa thaa?
> >
> > An example of jaane/jaaneN type..
> >
> > chuun tu juzv-i-3aalam-ii pas ai mahiiN
> > kull raa bar vasf-i-xvud biinii Ghavii
> >
> > Rumi (Masnavi-i-Ma3navi V4 P228)
> > > > kahaaN kaa gyaan aur dhyaan kaisaa, xudaa kahaaN kaa kahaaN ke vishnu(u)
> > > > 3amal ke badle isii kaa Ghul hai "bi-biiN-o-bishnau, bi-biiN-o-bishnau"
> > > >
> > > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> > > >
> > > > I don't know how/why "u"/"uu" can rhyme with "au"?
> > > >
> > > ***My (semi-intelligent) guess is that Akbar read these words as "vishnav" and "bi-shanav". What do you think?***
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > Well, to the best of my knowledge, the first word is a proper name विष्णु that is written in Urdu as وِشنُو vishnuu when the hyper-correct word should be وِشنُ or instead of the dotted nuun, a little to'e placed above the nuun-dot to indicate it is a retroflez sound. The second word is a Persian imperative (fi3l amr) which should end with an "au" dipthong as in "pau" (pau phaTnaa). I can not understand how poetic license would allow a proper name and that too of a god to be changed to Vishnau so that it can be rhymed with "bi-shinau > bishnau"!
> > > > yih sust hai to phir kyaa vuh tez hai to phir kyaa
> > > > neTiv jo hai to phir kyaa aNgrez hai to phir kyaa
> > > >
> > > > manzil vahii hai jis ko nabiyoN ne hai bataayaa
> > > > isTiim hai to phir kyaa mihmiiz hai to phir kyaa
> >
> > > ***Take it easy, youngman. You may like to pronounce this word as "mihmiiz" but, according to my sources, the correct pronunciation is "mahmiiz" as well as "mahmez". So, for me, no problem here!***
> > ٖFor some reason, I have always thought of this word as "mihmiiz" and this is how the pronunciation is provided in Urdu LuGhat. Platts also initially gives the word as "mihmiiz" but than provides the alternative "mahmez". Please allow me to add a little about its etymology.
> >
> > Originally this word is based on the Arabic pattern "mif3aal" which is one of the patterns to provide words used for instruments and tools, e.g misvaak, mizraab, minqaar etc etc. In this case, the word for a "spur" is "mihmaaz". By a process known as "imaalah", the Persians changed this word to "mihmez" (the alif-i-mamduudah has been changed to yaa-i-majhuul). So, the change from "mihmez" to "mahmez" is not logical to my mind but languages do not always adhere to logic!
> > > > buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
> > > > ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai
> > > >
> > > > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
> >
> > > ***Totally legit this one!***
> > Yes, I agree and I knew of the "feminine" version of "Lailaa" but decided to add this shi3r to the list as the usual pronunciation for your (Qais's) beloved is Lailaa and not Lailii in Urdu. However, as uncommon as this might be, it has come into Urdu poetry via Persian.
> >
> > zahe! naa-diidah az xuubaan kase misl-i-tu dar xaile (xuubaaN?)
> > agar ruu-i-tura diide cho man majnuun shude laile (majnuuN)
> >
> > AuHadii
> > > > hamaare musliH agar yahii haiN badal hii deN ge mizaaj-i-Lailii
> > > > yih mashvare de rahe haiN Hazrat kih bhej do Qais ko Barelii
> > > >
> > > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> >
> > > ***This one is no good ---- unless we say Lailii and Brailii or Barelii and Lelii. ise kahte haiN, "har do la'anat"!
> > I too find "Lailii" and "Barelii" rhyme difficult to swallow. If we go down the route of Lailii/Barailii, a proper name is being changed to suit the rhyme scheme. If we think of the words as "Lelii" and "Barelii", how does one end up with the word "Lelii"? If we apply the "imaalah rule", "Lailaa" can be changed to "Laile" but not "Lelii" which in my language means a female young goat/sheep!:-)
> > > to yeh rahe aap ke 'ameeq savaalaat par mujh "dihaatii" ke seedhe-saade javaabaat. ab aap kisi taraH Abid sahib ko idhar laaiye taa-k baat aage baRhe! :-)
> > janaab, agar aap dihaatii haiN (vaise mujhe ma3luum hai kih aap "shahrii" haiN) to maiN TheTh "peNDuu" huuN! isii liye to maiN bhaiNsoN aur leliyoN kii baateN kartaa huuN!:-)
> > >
> > > aap ki hiteshii, Raj Kumar***
> > aap kii posTeN Hindi siikhne kaa achchhaa zarii3ah haiN lekin kyaa aap हितैषी likhnaa chaahte the aur "aap kaa" ba-jaa'e "aap kii"?
> >
> > Naseer
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> yaaraan-e-adab: aadaab!
> Please forgive my (perhaps unwanted) intrusion. I don't have the slightest idea about the Arooz expertise of the participants in this laRee. I suspect that much of the confusion is the result of insufficient knowledge of Arooz, specifically that of i"lm-e-qaafiyah and Harf-e-Ravee. Perhaps we should invest some time and effort in that direction. What do you think?
>
> RAZ

Greetings! I claim no expertise in prosody (Urdu or other), but I do have a great interest in the answers to Naseer Sahib's questions. I saw the thread languishing and thought I would try to keep it alive.

Regards,

Nagesh

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 4:22:29 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 05:49:07 UTC+1, Sarwar A. Raz wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 2:12:38 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> > > Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai
> > > On Tuesday, 25 May 2021 at 06:07:47 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 9:39:14 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > > > > dostaan-i-3aziizii,
> > > > >
> > > > > I am wondering what our resident poets Irfan Abid SaaHib and Raj Kumar SaaHib as well as learned members of the forum think of the following rhymes.
> > > > ***Huzuur, aap ke savaaloN ka javaab ko'ii de bhi to kyaa de? aap ke savaal to jahaan bhar se niyaare haiN!*** :-)
> > > is laRii par nigaah-i-karam Daalne par maiN aap kaa shukr-guzaar huuN۔ maanaa kih savaalaat "jahaan bhar se niyaare" hii sahii lekin in kii qadr to aap jaise guhar-shinaas hii kar sakte haiN!:-) ab dekhte haiN Irfan SaaHib apne jauhar dikhaane ke liye is maidaan meN kab kuudeN ge:-)
> > > > > agarchih zauq-i-tamkinat kaa liHaaz rakhtaa huuN, saltanat kaa
> > > > > xudaa ne qaa'im kiye haiN darje, xayaal hai Hadd-i-manzilat kaa
> > > > > .............................................................................................sakat kaa
> > > > > ................................................................................................gat kaa
> > > > > ............................................................................................chhat kaa
> > > > > saNvaare xvud aap hii ne putle aur un meN kunjii lagaa'ii Gharbii
> > > > > lage vuh jab naachne uchhalne, kisii ko pheNkaa, kisii ko paTkaa!
> > >
> > > > ***ain mumkin hai k Miir ke zamaane meN lafz "paTaknaa" ki bajaaye "pataknaa" bhi ravaa tha. agar aisa tha to yahaaN lafz "patkaa" se kaam chal saktaa hai. albatta, daur-e-Haazir meN aisi ravish ka maqaam nahiiN hai!***
> > > mujhe masdar "pataknaa" kisii bhii luGhat meN nahiiN milaa. maziid bar aaN, yih ash3aar Akbar Ilaahabaadi ke haiN. shaa3ir kaa naam nah likhne kii chuuk mujh se ho ga'ii hai. ma3zirat-xvaah huuN. so, yuuN lagtaa hai Akbar ke nazdiik t/T kaa qaafiyah jaa'iz hai. (?)
> > > > > kahtaa hai Miir tujh ko yaaN yih* nah kar tuu vah kar
> > > > > par ho sake jo pyaare, dil meN bhii Tuk jagah kar
> > >
> > > > ***"tu vah kar" vs "jagah kar"? I don't know about others but I'll stay away from this sort of a qaafiya-paimaa'ii!*** :-(
> > > > >
> > > lekin kyoN Raj Kumar SaaHib? agar farz kar leN kih Miir ke zamaane meN "yah", "vah" ba-jaa'e aaj ke "yih/vuh" barte jaate the to in ke saath "jagah" jaisaa lafz kyoN nahiiN laayaa jaa saktaa?
> > > > > shirk chaahe bahaa'e meraa lahuu
> > > > > maiN nah chhoRuuN gaa "laa shariika lahu"
> > > > >
> > > > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> > >
> > > > ***No problem here, so long as you write "mera lahuu" instead of "meraa lahuu"!***
> > > meraa savaal bi_lxusuus لَہُو ko لَهُ ke saath ham-qaafiyah banaane se muta3aiiqah thaa. agar meraa ko mera karne se Hisaab baraabar ho jaataa hai, to Thiik hai.
> > > > > nah bahte ashk to taasiir meN sivaa hote
> > > > > sadaf meN rahte yih motii to be-bahaa hote
> > > > > janaab-i-Hazrat-i-naasiH kaa vaah kyaa kahnaa
> > > > > jo ek baat nah hotii to auliyaa* hote
> > > > >
> > > > > * auliyaa' normally has a hamzah at the end, which has been dropped here.
> > >
> > > > ***mere pyaare Bhole Nath, lafz 'auliyaa' ka hamza to kab ka gir chukaa. daur-e-Haazir meN to aap charaaGh le kar bhi DhuuNDheN to yeh hamza kahiiN nahiiN milne ka! :-(
> > > > kahne ka matlab yeh k mundaraja-baalaa qaafiya bar-Haq hai.***
> > > yaqiin-an aap kaa ishaarah shaa3irii kii jaanib ho gaa, nah kih nasr.... yaa kih har-do?
> > >
> > > aap jaante haiN kih 3arabii alfaaz kaa yih hamzah ek juzv-i-laa-budda hai. ise giraa dene kii mantiq mujhe durust ma3luum hotii hai kyoNkih agar vaaHid meN hamzah hai, to jam3 meN bhii hamzah laazimii aa'e gaa aur agar vaaHid se ise xaarij kar diyaa gayaa hai to jam3 meN ise kyoNkar jagah mil saktii hai? yahaaN tak to mujhe is mantiq se ittifaaq hai lekiN Haqiiqat yih hai kih is hamze ko mukammal taur par dafn nahiiN kiyaa jaa sakaa!
> > >
> > > masal-an shai' > ashyaa'
> > > juz' > ajzaa'
> > > valii' > auliyaa'
> > >
> > > in sab alfaaz kii vaaHid Haisiyyat meN hamzah nahiiN likhaa jaataa. (shaayad juz ba-shakl-i-juz' dikhaa'ii detaa hai). mere xayaal meN Urdu meN 3arabii alfaaz meN jahaaN hamzah aaxirii maqaam par aataa hai, vuh alfaaz ab bhii hamzah ke saath aur hamzah ke baGhair likhe jaa rahe haiN.
> > >
> > > Another interesting one, once again from Akbar.
> > > sharii3at kii xidmat kaa sab se lagaa'o
> > > tariiqat kii lazzat pai-i-"man yashaa'u" (مَن یشاءُ)
> > > > > ko'ii martaa hai kyoN, balaa jaane
> > > > > ham bahuu-beTiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
> > > > >
> > > > > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
> > > > ***jaan-e-man, 'jaane' aur 'jaaneN' kisi suurat ham-qaafiya nahiiN ho sakte. Mirza Shauq L. ne agar aise alfaaz ko ham-qaafiya samjhaa hai to unheN ko'ii "majbuurii" hogi. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > aage aap samajh-daar haiN!***
> > > > >
> > > itnii samajh-buujh hotii to aap jaise asaatizaa ko mere savaaloN kii takliif kyoN gavaaraa karnii paRtii?:-) kaisii majbuurii Raj Kumar SaaHib? kyaa Shauq ke paa'e kaa shaa3ir yaksaaN qafiyah (jaane yaa jaaneN donoN misr3oN meN) nahiiN laa saktaa thaa?
> > >
> > > An example of jaane/jaaneN type..
> > >
> > > chuun tu juzv-i-3aalam-ii pas ai mahiiN
> > > kull raa bar vasf-i-xvud biinii Ghavii
> > >
> > > Rumi (Masnavi-i-Ma3navi V4 P228)
> > > > > kahaaN kaa gyaan aur dhyaan kaisaa, xudaa kahaaN kaa kahaaN ke vishnu(u)
> > > > > 3amal ke badle isii kaa Ghul hai "bi-biiN-o-bishnau, bi-biiN-o-bishnau"
> > > > >
> > > > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know how/why "u"/"uu" can rhyme with "au"?
> > > > >
> > > > ***My (semi-intelligent) guess is that Akbar read these words as "vishnav" and "bi-shanav". What do you think?***
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Well, to the best of my knowledge, the first word is a proper name विष्णु that is written in Urdu as وِشنُو vishnuu when the hyper-correct word should be وِشنُ or instead of the dotted nuun, a little to'e placed above the nuun-dot to indicate it is a retroflez sound. The second word is a Persian imperative (fi3l amr) which should end with an "au" dipthong as in "pau" (pau phaTnaa). I can not understand how poetic license would allow a proper name and that too of a god to be changed to Vishnau so that it can be rhymed with "bi-shinau > bishnau"!
> > > > > yih sust hai to phir kyaa vuh tez hai to phir kyaa
> > > > > neTiv jo hai to phir kyaa aNgrez hai to phir kyaa
> > > > >
> > > > > manzil vahii hai jis ko nabiyoN ne hai bataayaa
> > > > > isTiim hai to phir kyaa mihmiiz hai to phir kyaa
> > >
> > > > ***Take it easy, youngman. You may like to pronounce this word as "mihmiiz" but, according to my sources, the correct pronunciation is "mahmiiz" as well as "mahmez". So, for me, no problem here!***
> > > ٖFor some reason, I have always thought of this word as "mihmiiz" and this is how the pronunciation is provided in Urdu LuGhat. Platts also initially gives the word as "mihmiiz" but than provides the alternative "mahmez". Please allow me to add a little about its etymology.
> > >
> > > Originally this word is based on the Arabic pattern "mif3aal" which is one of the patterns to provide words used for instruments and tools, e.g misvaak, mizraab, minqaar etc etc. In this case, the word for a "spur" is "mihmaaz". By a process known as "imaalah", the Persians changed this word to "mihmez" (the alif-i-mamduudah has been changed to yaa-i-majhuul). So, the change from "mihmez" to "mahmez" is not logical to my mind but languages do not always adhere to logic!
> > > > > buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
> > > > > ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai
> > > > >
> > > > > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
> > >
> > > > ***Totally legit this one!***
> > > Yes, I agree and I knew of the "feminine" version of "Lailaa" but decided to add this shi3r to the list as the usual pronunciation for your (Qais's) beloved is Lailaa and not Lailii in Urdu. However, as uncommon as this might be, it has come into Urdu poetry via Persian.
> > >
> > > zahe! naa-diidah az xuubaan kase misl-i-tu dar xaile (xuubaaN?)
> > > agar ruu-i-tura diide cho man majnuun shude laile (majnuuN)
> > >
> > > AuHadii
> > > > > hamaare musliH agar yahii haiN badal hii deN ge mizaaj-i-Lailii
> > > > > yih mashvare de rahe haiN Hazrat kih bhej do Qais ko Barelii
> > > > >
> > > > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> > >
> > > > ***This one is no good ---- unless we say Lailii and Brailii or Barelii and Lelii. ise kahte haiN, "har do la'anat"!
> > > I too find "Lailii" and "Barelii" rhyme difficult to swallow. If we go down the route of Lailii/Barailii, a proper name is being changed to suit the rhyme scheme. If we think of the words as "Lelii" and "Barelii", how does one end up with the word "Lelii"? If we apply the "imaalah rule", "Lailaa" can be changed to "Laile" but not "Lelii" which in my language means a female young goat/sheep!:-)
> > > > to yeh rahe aap ke 'ameeq savaalaat par mujh "dihaatii" ke seedhe-saade javaabaat. ab aap kisi taraH Abid sahib ko idhar laaiye taa-k baat aage baRhe! :-)
> > > janaab, agar aap dihaatii haiN (vaise mujhe ma3luum hai kih aap "shahrii" haiN) to maiN TheTh "peNDuu" huuN! isii liye to maiN bhaiNsoN aur leliyoN kii baateN kartaa huuN!:-)
> > > >
> > > > aap ki hiteshii, Raj Kumar***
> > > aap kii posTeN Hindi siikhne kaa achchhaa zarii3ah haiN lekin kyaa aap हितैषी likhnaa chaahte the aur "aap kaa" ba-jaa'e "aap kii"?
> > >
> > > Naseer
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > yaaraan-e-adab: aadaab!
> > Please forgive my (perhaps unwanted) intrusion. I don't have the slightest idea about the Arooz expertise of the participants in this laRee. I suspect that much of the confusion is the result of insufficient knowledge of Arooz, specifically that of i"lm-e-qaafiyah and Harf-e-Ravee. Perhaps we should invest some time and effort in that direction. What do you think?
> >
> > RAZ
> No intrusion whatsoever, Sarwar SaaHib. Yes, this thread was begun by someone completely ignorant of 3aruuz and the idea was to get some sort of explanation. I can't comment about Nagesh SaaHib's "expertise" in this field but surely you will not place Raj Kumar SaaHib in the same category as me, bearing in mind that what he does n't know about this art is not worth knowing!
>
> I would appreciate your comments on the various quotes I have provided. If you can not add anything further to what Raj Kumar SaaHib has added, then that's of course fine.
>
> xair-xvaah,
>
> Naseer

On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 15:18:08 UTC+1, Nagesh wrote:
> Greetings! I claim no expertise in prosody (Urdu or other), but I do have a great interest in the answers to Naseer Sahib's questions. I saw the thread languishing and thought I would try to keep it alive.
>
> Regards,
>
> Nagesh

Much appreciated Nagesh SaaHib. Naseer SaaHib's threads along with he himself are often languishing!:-) If you really believe in and care for the revival and resuscitation of all things languishing, then there is another thread of similar nature that might interest you.

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/OXMDokEivJA

Naseer

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 9:35:51 AM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 15:18:08 UTC+1, Nagesh wrote:
> > Greetings! I claim no expertise in prosody (Urdu or other), but I do have a great interest in the answers to Naseer Sahib's questions. I saw the thread languishing and thought I would try to keep it alive.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Nagesh
> Much appreciated Nagesh SaaHib. Naseer SaaHib's threads along with he himself are often languishing!:-) If you really believe in and care for the revival and resuscitation of all things languishing, then there is another thread of similar nature that might interest you.
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.language.urdu.poetry/c/OXMDokEivJA
>
> Naseer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mukarramee Naseer SaaHeb: aadaab!
Khat kaa shukriya. gust'aaKhee mu,a'af! aap kee teHreer se zaahir thaa keh aap kaa Arooz kaa i'lm meHdood hai. yeh koyee buraayee naheeN hai. Arooj bohat pecheedh fun (art) hai aur Urdu meN ziyaadah mushkil hai kyoN keh Urdu muKhtalif zabaanoN se mil kar banee hai aur Arooz ke uSool har zabaan par yaksaaN naheeN lag sakte haiN. maiN bhee Arooz kaa t'aalib-e-i'lm hooN. shaa,i'ree meN Arooz kee Ghalat'iyaaN Faiz, Firaq, Josh, Sauda jaise logoN ke yahaaN haiN. zabaan-o-bayaan ke a'ib Mir aur Ghalib ke kalaam meN haiN. Ghalat'ee karnaa a'ib naheeN hai, Ghalat'ee par aR jaanaa a'ib hai. ham mil jul kar apne sawaaloN kaa jawaab talaash kar sakte haiN aur kareN ge. yeh achhaa kaam hai aur hameN karnaa chaahiye.
Qais SaaHeb se maiN ek muddat se nah Sirf waaqif hooN bal.keh un kaa iHtiraam kartaa hooN aur un kee kitaab bhee mere paas hai. meree un kee adabee guftagoo bohat huwee hai aur ham ne ek doosre par tanqeed bhee kee hai. aap ne jo likhaa hai keh Qais shaai'ree par jo naheeN jaante woh is qaabil bhee naheeN hai nah Sirf Ghalat' hai bal.keh muhmal hai. aap un kaa kalaam Khud hee dekheN. is se ziyaadah kehne kee Zaroorat nahee hai.
aap ke sawaaloN ke jawaab jald hee dooN gaa. sab kee bunyaad Arooz par hai.. ek baat waaZeH kar dooN keh sanad aur misaal baRe shaa,i'roN kee dee jaatee hai. Akbar Alahabadi Urdu shaa,i'r haiN lekin sanad naheeN haiN. isee t'araH Faiz, Faraz, Jagan Nath Azad, Josh sanad naheeN haiN. in nikaat par bhee aa,indah baat ho gee. meree kisee baat kaa Ghalat' mat'lab nah leN aur nah hee buraa maaneN. ham aksar iKhtilaaf kareN ge lekin jhagReN ge kabhee naheeN. shukriya.

Sarwar Raz

On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 20:43:07 UTC+1, Sarwar A. Raz wrote:

> mukarramee Naseer SaaHeb: aadaab!
> Khat kaa shukriya. gust'aaKhee mu,a'af! aap kee teHreer se zaahir thaa keh aap kaa Arooz kaa i'lm meHdood hai. yeh koyee buraayee naheeN hai. Arooj bohat pecheedh fun (art) hai aur Urdu meN ziyaadah mushkil hai kyoN keh Urdu muKhtalif zabaanoN se mil kar banee hai aur Arooz ke uSool har zabaan par yaksaaN naheeN lag sakte haiN. maiN bhee Arooz kaa t'aalib-e-i'lm hooN. shaa,i'ree meN Arooz kee Ghalat'iyaaN Faiz, Firaq, Josh, Sauda jaise logoN ke yahaaN haiN. zabaan-o-bayaan ke a'ib Mir aur Ghalib ke kalaam meN haiN. Ghalat'ee karnaa a'ib naheeN hai, Ghalat'ee par aR jaanaa a'ib hai. ham mil jul kar apne sawaaloN kaa jawaab talaash kar sakte haiN aur kareN ge. yeh achhaa kaam hai aur hameN karnaa chaahiye.
> Qais SaaHeb se maiN ek muddat se nah Sirf waaqif hooN bal.keh un kaa iHtiraam kartaa hooN aur un kee kitaab bhee mere paas hai. meree un kee adabee guftagoo bohat huwee hai aur ham ne ek doosre par tanqeed bhee kee hai. aap ne jo likhaa hai keh Qais shaai'ree par jo naheeN jaante woh is qaabil bhee naheeN hai nah Sirf Ghalat' hai bal.keh muhmal hai. aap un kaa kalaam Khud hee dekheN. is se ziyaadah kehne kee Zaroorat nahee hai.

> aap ke sawaaloN ke jawaab jald hee dooN gaa. sab kee bunyaad Arooz par hai. ek baat waaZeH kar dooN keh sanad aur misaal baRe shaa,i'roN kee dee jaatee hai. Akbar Alahabadi Urdu shaa,i'r haiN lekin sanad naheeN haiN. isee t'araH Faiz, Faraz, Jagan Nath Azad, Josh sanad naheeN haiN. in nikaat par bhee aa,indah baat ho gee. meree kisee baat kaa Ghalat' mat'lab nah leN aur nah hee buraa maaneN. ham aksar iKhtilaaf kareN ge lekin jhagReN ge kabhee naheeN. shukriya.
>
> Sarwar Raz

janaab-i-Sarwar Raz SaaHib, tasliimaat.

yih aap kii zarrah-navaazii hai kih aap merii 3aruuzii jaan-pahchaan ko "maHduud" samajh rahe haiN! Haqiiqat yih hai aur yih kahte hu'e mujhe rattii-bhar bhii hichkichaahaT nahiiN kih maiN is 3ilm se qat3an naa-balad huuN. aur sach puuchhiye to ise Haasil karne kaa mujhe ko'ii shauq bhii nahiiN!

Raj Kumar Qais SaaHib 3aruuz ke baare meN kyaa jaante haiN aur kyaa nahiiN jaante, maiN is tanaazu3 meN nahiiN paRnaa chaahtaa. mujhe ma3luum hai kih riyaazii meN jab ham kusuur siikh rahe the to "least common denominator" ke liye Urdu meN jo lafz isti3maal hotaa hai use ذو اضعافِ اقلّ zuu az3aaf-i-aqall kahte haiN. lekin aap yih zaruur tasliim kareN ge kih is naam ko jaane baGhair bhii kaam chal saktaa hai. mumkin hai Raj Kumar SaaHib ne 3ilm-i-3aruuz kii ko'ii baa-zaabitah sanad Haasil nah kii ho, lekin jahaaN tak mujhe 3ilm hai vuh apne shi3r Thiik baHr aur vazn meN kahte haiN.

mere zihn meN to yahii thaa kih Akbar Ilaahabaadii, asaatizah meN shaamil hote haiN. ab aap farmaa rahe haiN kih vuh baRe shaa3ir nahiiN aur un kaa kalaam sanad kaa maqaam nahiiN rakhtaa! aap ke xayaal meN kaun-sii aisii qad-aavar hastiyaaN haiN jinheN ba-taur-i-sanad isti3maal kiyaa jaa saktaa hai?

is laRii ke ibtidaa'ii "motii" (:-)) meN uThaa'e ga'e savaaloN ke javaabaat kaa mujhe shiddat se intizaar rahe gaa.

xair-andesh,
Naseer

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:27:03 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 20:43:07 UTC+1, Sarwar A. Raz wrote:
>
> > mukarramee Naseer SaaHeb: aadaab!
> > Khat kaa shukriya. gust'aaKhee mu,a'af! aap kee teHreer se zaahir thaa keh aap kaa Arooz kaa i'lm meHdood hai. yeh koyee buraayee naheeN hai. Arooj bohat pecheedh fun (art) hai aur Urdu meN ziyaadah mushkil hai kyoN keh Urdu muKhtalif zabaanoN se mil kar banee hai aur Arooz ke uSool har zabaan par yaksaaN naheeN lag sakte haiN. maiN bhee Arooz kaa t'aalib-e-i'lm hooN. shaa,i'ree meN Arooz kee Ghalat'iyaaN Faiz, Firaq, Josh, Sauda jaise logoN ke yahaaN haiN. zabaan-o-bayaan ke a'ib Mir aur Ghalib ke kalaam meN haiN. Ghalat'ee karnaa a'ib naheeN hai, Ghalat'ee par aR jaanaa a'ib hai. ham mil jul kar apne sawaaloN kaa jawaab talaash kar sakte haiN aur kareN ge. yeh achhaa kaam hai aur hameN karnaa chaahiye.
> > Qais SaaHeb se maiN ek muddat se nah Sirf waaqif hooN bal.keh un kaa iHtiraam kartaa hooN aur un kee kitaab bhee mere paas hai. meree un kee adabee guftagoo bohat huwee hai aur ham ne ek doosre par tanqeed bhee kee hai. aap ne jo likhaa hai keh Qais shaai'ree par jo naheeN jaante woh is qaabil bhee naheeN hai nah Sirf Ghalat' hai bal.keh muhmal hai. aap un kaa kalaam Khud hee dekheN. is se ziyaadah kehne kee Zaroorat nahee hai.
>
> > aap ke sawaaloN ke jawaab jald hee dooN gaa. sab kee bunyaad Arooz par hai. ek baat waaZeH kar dooN keh sanad aur misaal baRe shaa,i'roN kee dee jaatee hai. Akbar Alahabadi Urdu shaa,i'r haiN lekin sanad naheeN haiN. isee t'araH Faiz, Faraz, Jagan Nath Azad, Josh sanad naheeN haiN. in nikaat par bhee aa,indah baat ho gee. meree kisee baat kaa Ghalat' mat'lab nah leN aur nah hee buraa maaneN. ham aksar iKhtilaaf kareN ge lekin jhagReN ge kabhee naheeN. shukriya.
> >
> > Sarwar Raz
> janaab-i-Sarwar Raz SaaHib, tasliimaat.
>
> yih aap kii zarrah-navaazii hai kih aap merii 3aruuzii jaan-pahchaan ko "maHduud" samajh rahe haiN! Haqiiqat yih hai aur yih kahte hu'e mujhe rattii-bhar bhii hichkichaahaT nahiiN kih maiN is 3ilm se qat3an naa-balad huuN. aur sach puuchhiye to ise Haasil karne kaa mujhe ko'ii shauq bhii nahiiN!
>
> Raj Kumar Qais SaaHib 3aruuz ke baare meN kyaa jaante haiN aur kyaa nahiiN jaante, maiN is tanaazu3 meN nahiiN paRnaa chaahtaa. mujhe ma3luum hai kih riyaazii meN jab ham kusuur siikh rahe the to "least common denominator" ke liye Urdu meN jo lafz isti3maal hotaa hai use ذو اضعافِ اقلّ zuu az3aaf-i-aqall kahte haiN. lekin aap yih zaruur tasliim kareN ge kih is naam ko jaane baGhair bhii kaam chal saktaa hai. mumkin hai Raj Kumar SaaHib ne 3ilm-i-3aruuz kii ko'ii baa-zaabitah sanad Haasil nah kii ho, lekin jahaaN tak mujhe 3ilm hai vuh apne shi3r Thiik baHr aur vazn meN kahte haiN.
>
> mere zihn meN to yahii thaa kih Akbar Ilaahabaadii, asaatizah meN shaamil hote haiN. ab aap farmaa rahe haiN kih vuh baRe shaa3ir nahiiN aur un kaa kalaam sanad kaa maqaam nahiiN rakhtaa! aap ke xayaal meN kaun-sii aisii qad-aavar hastiyaaN haiN jinheN ba-taur-i-sanad isti3maal kiyaa jaa saktaa hai?
>
> is laRii ke ibtidaa'ii "motii" (:-)) meN uThaa'e ga'e savaaloN ke javaabaat kaa mujhe shiddat se intizaar rahe gaa.
>
> xair-andesh,
> Naseer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naseer SaaHeb: aadaab!
maiN ek baat kehne aayaa hooN. maiN ne kabhee naheeN kahaa keh Qais beHr yaa wazn se baahar she'r kehte haiN. maiN ne aap ke jin alfaaz se iKhtilaaf kiyaa hai woh yeh haiN : what he does n't know about this art is not worth knowing! aur isee baat ko maiN ne Ghalat' aur muhmal likhaa hai. guzaarish hai keh guftagoo ko un baatoN tak hee meHdood rakheN jo maiN ne kahee haiN warnah baRee mushkilaat pesh aayeN gee. shukriya.

Raz

On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 21:52:37 UTC+1, Sarwar A. Raz wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:27:03 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 20:43:07 UTC+1, Sarwar A. Raz wrote:
> >
> > > mukarramee Naseer SaaHeb: aadaab!
> > > Khat kaa shukriya. gust'aaKhee mu,a'af! aap kee teHreer se zaahir thaa keh aap kaa Arooz kaa i'lm meHdood hai. yeh koyee buraayee naheeN hai. Arooj bohat pecheedh fun (art) hai aur Urdu meN ziyaadah mushkil hai kyoN keh Urdu muKhtalif zabaanoN se mil kar banee hai aur Arooz ke uSool har zabaan par yaksaaN naheeN lag sakte haiN. maiN bhee Arooz kaa t'aalib-e-i'lm hooN.. shaa,i'ree meN Arooz kee Ghalat'iyaaN Faiz, Firaq, Josh, Sauda jaise logoN ke yahaaN haiN. zabaan-o-bayaan ke a'ib Mir aur Ghalib ke kalaam meN haiN.. Ghalat'ee karnaa a'ib naheeN hai, Ghalat'ee par aR jaanaa a'ib hai. ham mil jul kar apne sawaaloN kaa jawaab talaash kar sakte haiN aur kareN ge. yeh achhaa kaam hai aur hameN karnaa chaahiye.
> > > Qais SaaHeb se maiN ek muddat se nah Sirf waaqif hooN bal.keh un kaa iHtiraam kartaa hooN aur un kee kitaab bhee mere paas hai. meree un kee adabee guftagoo bohat huwee hai aur ham ne ek doosre par tanqeed bhee kee hai. aap ne jo likhaa hai keh Qais shaai'ree par jo naheeN jaante woh is qaabil bhee naheeN hai nah Sirf Ghalat' hai bal.keh muhmal hai. aap un kaa kalaam Khud hee dekheN. is se ziyaadah kehne kee Zaroorat nahee hai.
> >
> > > aap ke sawaaloN ke jawaab jald hee dooN gaa. sab kee bunyaad Arooz par hai. ek baat waaZeH kar dooN keh sanad aur misaal baRe shaa,i'roN kee dee jaatee hai. Akbar Alahabadi Urdu shaa,i'r haiN lekin sanad naheeN haiN. isee t'araH Faiz, Faraz, Jagan Nath Azad, Josh sanad naheeN haiN. in nikaat par bhee aa,indah baat ho gee. meree kisee baat kaa Ghalat' mat'lab nah leN aur nah hee buraa maaneN. ham aksar iKhtilaaf kareN ge lekin jhagReN ge kabhee naheeN. shukriya.
> > >
> > > Sarwar Raz
> > janaab-i-Sarwar Raz SaaHib, tasliimaat.
> >
> > yih aap kii zarrah-navaazii hai kih aap merii 3aruuzii jaan-pahchaan ko "maHduud" samajh rahe haiN! Haqiiqat yih hai aur yih kahte hu'e mujhe rattii-bhar bhii hichkichaahaT nahiiN kih maiN is 3ilm se qat3an naa-balad huuN.. aur sach puuchhiye to ise Haasil karne kaa mujhe ko'ii shauq bhii nahiiN!
> >
> > Raj Kumar Qais SaaHib 3aruuz ke baare meN kyaa jaante haiN aur kyaa nahiiN jaante, maiN is tanaazu3 meN nahiiN paRnaa chaahtaa. mujhe ma3luum hai kih riyaazii meN jab ham kusuur siikh rahe the to "least common denominator" ke liye Urdu meN jo lafz isti3maal hotaa hai use ذو اضعافِ اقلّ zuu az3aaf-i-aqall kahte haiN. lekin aap yih zaruur tasliim kareN ge kih is naam ko jaane baGhair bhii kaam chal saktaa hai. mumkin hai Raj Kumar SaaHib ne 3ilm-i-3aruuz kii ko'ii baa-zaabitah sanad Haasil nah kii ho, lekin jahaaN tak mujhe 3ilm hai vuh apne shi3r Thiik baHr aur vazn meN kahte haiN.
> >
> > mere zihn meN to yahii thaa kih Akbar Ilaahabaadii, asaatizah meN shaamil hote haiN. ab aap farmaa rahe haiN kih vuh baRe shaa3ir nahiiN aur un kaa kalaam sanad kaa maqaam nahiiN rakhtaa! aap ke xayaal meN kaun-sii aisii qad-aavar hastiyaaN haiN jinheN ba-taur-i-sanad isti3maal kiyaa jaa saktaa hai?
> >
> > is laRii ke ibtidaa'ii "motii" (:-)) meN uThaa'e ga'e savaaloN ke javaabaat kaa mujhe shiddat se intizaar rahe gaa.
> >
> > xair-andesh,
> > Naseer
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Naseer SaaHeb: aadaab!
> maiN ek baat kehne aayaa hooN. maiN ne kabhee naheeN kahaa keh Qais beHr yaa wazn se baahar she'r kehte haiN. maiN ne aap ke jin alfaaz se iKhtilaaf kiyaa hai woh yeh haiN : what he does n't know about this art is not worth knowing! aur isee baat ko maiN ne Ghalat' aur muhmal likhaa hai. guzaarish hai keh guftagoo ko un baatoN tak hee meHdood rakheN jo maiN ne kahee haiN warnah baRee mushkilaat pesh aayeN gee. shukriya.
>
> Raz

Sarwar SaaHib, aadaab.

aap be-fikr ho jaa'iye. ko'ii baRii mushkil pesh nahiiN aa'e gii. maiN ne bhii to yih nahiiN kahaa hai kih aap ne aisaa kahaa hai. jahaaN tak mere jumle kaa ta3alluq hai, agar aap log shi3r-go'ii meN "ta3alii" barat sakte haiN to bandah-i-Haqiir, apnii nasr meN apne buzurgoN ke liye aisaa kyoN nahiiN kar saktaa!?:-)

Naseer