On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 05:49:07 UTC+1, Sarwar A. Raz wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 25, 2021 at 2:12:38 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> > Raj Kumar SaaHib, aadaab 3arz hai
> > On Tuesday, 25 May 2021 at 06:07:47 UTC+1, Raj Kumar wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 9:39:14 AM UTC-7, Naseer wrote:
> > > > dostaan-i-3aziizii,
> > > >
> > > > I am wondering what our resident poets Irfan Abid SaaHib and Raj Kumar SaaHib as well as learned members of the forum think of the following rhymes.
> > > ***Huzuur, aap ke savaaloN ka javaab ko'ii de bhi to kyaa de? aap ke savaal to jahaan bhar se niyaare haiN!*** :-)
> > is laRii par nigaah-i-karam Daalne par maiN aap kaa shukr-guzaar huuN۔ maanaa kih savaalaat "jahaan bhar se niyaare" hii sahii lekin in kii qadr to aap jaise guhar-shinaas hii kar sakte haiN!:-) ab dekhte haiN Irfan SaaHib apne jauhar dikhaane ke liye is maidaan meN kab kuudeN ge:-)
> > > > agarchih zauq-i-tamkinat kaa liHaaz rakhtaa huuN, saltanat kaa
> > > > xudaa ne qaa'im kiye haiN darje, xayaal hai Hadd-i-manzilat kaa
> > > > .............................................................................................sakat kaa
> > > > ................................................................................................gat kaa
> > > > ............................................................................................chhat kaa
> > > > saNvaare xvud aap hii ne putle aur un meN kunjii lagaa'ii Gharbii
> > > > lage vuh jab naachne uchhalne, kisii ko pheNkaa, kisii ko paTkaa!
> >
> > > ***ain mumkin hai k Miir ke zamaane meN lafz "paTaknaa" ki bajaaye "pataknaa" bhi ravaa tha. agar aisa tha to yahaaN lafz "patkaa" se kaam chal saktaa hai. albatta, daur-e-Haazir meN aisi ravish ka maqaam nahiiN hai!***
> > mujhe masdar "pataknaa" kisii bhii luGhat meN nahiiN milaa. maziid bar aaN, yih ash3aar Akbar Ilaahabaadi ke haiN. shaa3ir kaa naam nah likhne kii chuuk mujh se ho ga'ii hai. ma3zirat-xvaah huuN. so, yuuN lagtaa hai Akbar ke nazdiik t/T kaa qaafiyah jaa'iz hai. (?)
> > > > kahtaa hai Miir tujh ko yaaN yih* nah kar tuu vah kar
> > > > par ho sake jo pyaare, dil meN bhii Tuk jagah kar
> >
> > > ***"tu vah kar" vs "jagah kar"? I don't know about others but I'll stay away from this sort of a qaafiya-paimaa'ii!*** :-(
> > > >
> > lekin kyoN Raj Kumar SaaHib? agar farz kar leN kih Miir ke zamaane meN "yah", "vah" ba-jaa'e aaj ke "yih/vuh" barte jaate the to in ke saath "jagah" jaisaa lafz kyoN nahiiN laayaa jaa saktaa?
> > > > shirk chaahe bahaa'e meraa lahuu
> > > > maiN nah chhoRuuN gaa "laa shariika lahu"
> > > >
> > > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> >
> > > ***No problem here, so long as you write "mera lahuu" instead of "meraa lahuu"!***
> > meraa savaal bi_lxusuus لَہُو ko لَهُ ke saath ham-qaafiyah banaane se muta3aiiqah thaa. agar meraa ko mera karne se Hisaab baraabar ho jaataa hai, to Thiik hai.
> > > > nah bahte ashk to taasiir meN sivaa hote
> > > > sadaf meN rahte yih motii to be-bahaa hote
> > > > janaab-i-Hazrat-i-naasiH kaa vaah kyaa kahnaa
> > > > jo ek baat nah hotii to auliyaa* hote
> > > >
> > > > * auliyaa' normally has a hamzah at the end, which has been dropped here.
> >
> > > ***mere pyaare Bhole Nath, lafz 'auliyaa' ka hamza to kab ka gir chukaa. daur-e-Haazir meN to aap charaaGh le kar bhi DhuuNDheN to yeh hamza kahiiN nahiiN milne ka! :-(
> > > kahne ka matlab yeh k mundaraja-baalaa qaafiya bar-Haq hai.***
> > yaqiin-an aap kaa ishaarah shaa3irii kii jaanib ho gaa, nah kih nasr... yaa kih har-do?
> >
> > aap jaante haiN kih 3arabii alfaaz kaa yih hamzah ek juzv-i-laa-budda hai. ise giraa dene kii mantiq mujhe durust ma3luum hotii hai kyoNkih agar vaaHid meN hamzah hai, to jam3 meN bhii hamzah laazimii aa'e gaa aur agar vaaHid se ise xaarij kar diyaa gayaa hai to jam3 meN ise kyoNkar jagah mil saktii hai? yahaaN tak to mujhe is mantiq se ittifaaq hai lekiN Haqiiqat yih hai kih is hamze ko mukammal taur par dafn nahiiN kiyaa jaa sakaa!
> >
> > masal-an shai' > ashyaa'
> > juz' > ajzaa'
> > valii' > auliyaa'
> >
> > in sab alfaaz kii vaaHid Haisiyyat meN hamzah nahiiN likhaa jaataa. (shaayad juz ba-shakl-i-juz' dikhaa'ii detaa hai). mere xayaal meN Urdu meN 3arabii alfaaz meN jahaaN hamzah aaxirii maqaam par aataa hai, vuh alfaaz ab bhii hamzah ke saath aur hamzah ke baGhair likhe jaa rahe haiN.
> >
> > Another interesting one, once again from Akbar.
> > sharii3at kii xidmat kaa sab se lagaa'o
> > tariiqat kii lazzat pai-i-"man yashaa'u" (مَن یشاءُ)
> > > > ko'ii martaa hai kyoN, balaa jaane
> > > > ham bahuu-beTiyaaN yih kyaa jaaneN
> > > >
> > > > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
> > > ***jaan-e-man, 'jaane' aur 'jaaneN' kisi suurat ham-qaafiya nahiiN ho sakte. Mirza Shauq L. ne agar aise alfaaz ko ham-qaafiya samjhaa hai to unheN ko'ii "majbuurii" hogi. ;-)
> > >
> > > aage aap samajh-daar haiN!***
> > > >
> > itnii samajh-buujh hotii to aap jaise asaatizaa ko mere savaaloN kii takliif kyoN gavaaraa karnii paRtii?:-) kaisii majbuurii Raj Kumar SaaHib? kyaa Shauq ke paa'e kaa shaa3ir yaksaaN qafiyah (jaane yaa jaaneN donoN misr3oN meN) nahiiN laa saktaa thaa?
> >
> > An example of jaane/jaaneN type..
> >
> > chuun tu juzv-i-3aalam-ii pas ai mahiiN
> > kull raa bar vasf-i-xvud biinii Ghavii
> >
> > Rumi (Masnavi-i-Ma3navi V4 P228)
> > > > kahaaN kaa gyaan aur dhyaan kaisaa, xudaa kahaaN kaa kahaaN ke vishnu(u)
> > > > 3amal ke badle isii kaa Ghul hai "bi-biiN-o-bishnau, bi-biiN-o-bishnau"
> > > >
> > > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> > > >
> > > > I don't know how/why "u"/"uu" can rhyme with "au"?
> > > >
> > > ***My (semi-intelligent) guess is that Akbar read these words as "vishnav" and "bi-shanav". What do you think?***
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > Well, to the best of my knowledge, the first word is a proper name विष्णु that is written in Urdu as وِشنُو vishnuu when the hyper-correct word should be وِشنُ or instead of the dotted nuun, a little to'e placed above the nuun-dot to indicate it is a retroflez sound. The second word is a Persian imperative (fi3l amr) which should end with an "au" dipthong as in "pau" (pau phaTnaa). I can not understand how poetic license would allow a proper name and that too of a god to be changed to Vishnau so that it can be rhymed with "bi-shinau > bishnau"!
> > > > yih sust hai to phir kyaa vuh tez hai to phir kyaa
> > > > neTiv jo hai to phir kyaa aNgrez hai to phir kyaa
> > > >
> > > > manzil vahii hai jis ko nabiyoN ne hai bataayaa
> > > > isTiim hai to phir kyaa mihmiiz hai to phir kyaa
> >
> > > ***Take it easy, youngman. You may like to pronounce this word as "mihmiiz" but, according to my sources, the correct pronunciation is "mahmiiz" as well as "mahmez". So, for me, no problem here!***
> > ٖFor some reason, I have always thought of this word as "mihmiiz" and this is how the pronunciation is provided in Urdu LuGhat. Platts also initially gives the word as "mihmiiz" but than provides the alternative "mahmez". Please allow me to add a little about its etymology.
> >
> > Originally this word is based on the Arabic pattern "mif3aal" which is one of the patterns to provide words used for instruments and tools, e.g misvaak, mizraab, minqaar etc etc. In this case, the word for a "spur" is "mihmaaz". By a process known as "imaalah", the Persians changed this word to "mihmez" (the alif-i-mamduudah has been changed to yaa-i-majhuul). So, the change from "mihmez" to "mahmez" is not logical to my mind but languages do not always adhere to logic!
> > > > buu-i-Yuusuf tamaam phailii hai
> > > > ab nah vuh Qais hai nah Lailii hai
> > > >
> > > > Mirza Shauq Lakhnavi
> >
> > > ***Totally legit this one!***
> > Yes, I agree and I knew of the "feminine" version of "Lailaa" but decided to add this shi3r to the list as the usual pronunciation for your (Qais's) beloved is Lailaa and not Lailii in Urdu. However, as uncommon as this might be, it has come into Urdu poetry via Persian.
> >
> > zahe! naa-diidah az xuubaan kase misl-i-tu dar xaile (xuubaaN?)
> > agar ruu-i-tura diide cho man majnuun shude laile (majnuuN)
> >
> > AuHadii
> > > > hamaare musliH agar yahii haiN badal hii deN ge mizaaj-i-Lailii
> > > > yih mashvare de rahe haiN Hazrat kih bhej do Qais ko Barelii
> > > >
> > > > Akbar Ilaahabadi
> >
> > > ***This one is no good ---- unless we say Lailii and Brailii or Barelii and Lelii. ise kahte haiN, "har do la'anat"!
> > I too find "Lailii" and "Barelii" rhyme difficult to swallow. If we go down the route of Lailii/Barailii, a proper name is being changed to suit the rhyme scheme. If we think of the words as "Lelii" and "Barelii", how does one end up with the word "Lelii"? If we apply the "imaalah rule", "Lailaa" can be changed to "Laile" but not "Lelii" which in my language means a female young goat/sheep!:-)
> > > to yeh rahe aap ke 'ameeq savaalaat par mujh "dihaatii" ke seedhe-saade javaabaat. ab aap kisi taraH Abid sahib ko idhar laaiye taa-k baat aage baRhe! :-)
> > janaab, agar aap dihaatii haiN (vaise mujhe ma3luum hai kih aap "shahrii" haiN) to maiN TheTh "peNDuu" huuN! isii liye to maiN bhaiNsoN aur leliyoN kii baateN kartaa huuN!:-)
> > >
> > > aap ki hiteshii, Raj Kumar***
> > aap kii posTeN Hindi siikhne kaa achchhaa zarii3ah haiN lekin kyaa aap हितैषी likhnaa chaahte the aur "aap kaa" ba-jaa'e "aap kii"?
> >
> > Naseer
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> yaaraan-e-adab: aadaab!
> Please forgive my (perhaps unwanted) intrusion. I don't have the slightest idea about the Arooz expertise of the participants in this laRee. I suspect that much of the confusion is the result of insufficient knowledge of Arooz, specifically that of i"lm-e-qaafiyah and Harf-e-Ravee. Perhaps we should invest some time and effort in that direction. What do you think?
>
> RAZ

No intrusion whatsoever, Sarwar SaaHib. Yes, this thread was begun by someone completely ignorant of 3aruuz and the idea was to get some sort of explanation. I can't comment about Nagesh SaaHib's "expertise" in this field but surely you will not place Raj Kumar SaaHib in the same category as me, bearing in mind that what he does n't know about this art is not worth knowing!

I would appreciate your comments on the various quotes I have provided. If you can not add anything further to what Raj Kumar SaaHib has added, then that's of course fine.

xair-xvaah,

Naseer