Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
spreads across a lot of the Federation � not just Earth � is their
�evolution� away from currency and monetary importance. While this
sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.

The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
days of The Next Generation. The Federation had grown almost complacent
over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
culture.

One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
wanted to make wine? How could one can they �buy� a vineyard when money
no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
what they were born into.

The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko�s
New Orleans restaurant in Deep Space 9. It�s great for Sisko, but what
about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
currency. If one doesn�t have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
they offer in exchange that the �wealthy� (for want of a better word)
would not already have?

The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don�t need to
work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
function?

Star Trek has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
slave race. The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables � but what�s the point if
there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
owner, with no apparent way to escape this.

The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
elites, such as Picard.

--
Let's go Brandon!

On Aug 20, 2022 at 6:04:30 PM PDT, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

> STAR TREK has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
> additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
> these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
> question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
> organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
> over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
> spreads across a lot of the Federation-- not just Earth-- is their
> 'evolution' away from currency and monetary importance. While this
> sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
>
> The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
> was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
> days of NEXT GENERATION. The Federation had grown almost complacent
> over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
> Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
> something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
> effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
> achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
> from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
> at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
> best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
> culture.
>
> One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
> was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
> than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
> wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
> career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
> explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
> grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
> in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
> but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
> wanted to make wine? How could one can they 'buy' a vineyard when money
> no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
> prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
> suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
> only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
> what they were born into.

I made this same point years ago in a STAR TREK discussion group. It was
during the DS9 era when episodes were airing showing Sisko and Jake back on
earth visiting his father's restaurant in New Orleans. It looked every bit
like any restaurant you might currently find in New Orleans and I was like,
"How does this work without money?" Do people just wander in, order some food,
eat it, and then get up and leave without paying for anything? And does Daddy
Sisko just get supplies of meat, poultry, eggs, fish, flour, etc. from farmers
who just drop it off, free of charge?

With replicator technology, a lot of this becomes meaningless, but all
throughout the TNG-era shows, we've been led to believe that replicator food
isn't as good as real food, so one assumes the appeal of a restaurant like
Daddy Sisko's is that it's using real ingredients, cooked by real people, so
the question then becomes how the hell does it all work?

And then I pointed out exactly what that paragraph above described: How the
hell does someone who, say, wants to be a chef and run their own restaurant
actually *get* the restaurant? Do they just ask the government for a building
with a fully-equipped kitchen and a completely furnished dining room and the
government gives them one? That seems absurd, but otherwise, they either have
to pay someone for a restaurant or pay someone to build them one. The only
alternative is that the answer is, if you're not already a chef who owns a
restaurant somehow-- like Picard's inherited vineyard-- then no, you can never
become one.

> The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko's
> New Orleans restaurant in DEEP SPACE 9. It's great for Sisko, but what
> about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
> area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
> an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
> which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
> currency. If one doesn't have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
> they offer in exchange that the 'wealthy' (for want of a better word)
> would not already have?
>
> The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
> edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
> people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
> Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
> widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
> be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don't need to
> work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
> function?

Yes, in the same DS9 restaurant episodes, there was a scene of Daddy Sisko
ordering around the busboys and line cooks, and I was like, "Why the hell
would someone who lives in a society where there's no need to work to live
conceivably take a job in a restaurant doing back-breaking work like busing
tables and mopping floors? Or cleaning toilets or any of the other things that
one would think 24th-century technology could do but apparently doesn't?

> STAR TREK has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
> systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
> slave race.

I've always hated the way TREK portrays using technology to do rote, menial,
and/or unpleasant tasks is equated with 'creating a slave race'. Have I
enslaved my toaster when I force it to make me toast in the morning?

How is using a computer that controls cleaning apparatus to clean a bathroom
become enslavement, but me currently forcing my computer to facilitate my
postings to Usenet not enslavement?

> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables-- but what's the point if
> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>
> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
> societal dark underbellies are shown.

This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.

> It may seem like a freeing
> notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
> every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
> has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
> divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
> poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
> possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
> elites, such as Picard.

In article <FsycnTljUvnGGZz-nZ2dnZfqn_vNnZ2d@giganews.com>, Ubiquitous
<weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

> Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
> additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures.

Link is

https://gamerant.com/star-trek-problem-federation-economy

Please stop hiding the links in the headers, Ubi.

There are no holes in the logic because there is no logic. It doesn't
make sense because _it doesn't make sense_.

It's like the technobabble: they use popular buzzwords without any
regard for what they actually *mean*, and next week, forget all about
it.

Star Trek has never had the slightest concern for continuity.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On 2022-08-20 10:53 p.m., RichA wrote:
>> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
>> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
>> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what’s the point if
>> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career?

To feel useful? To socialize? Why do people play mobile games that
simulate bartending? (There are such. Go Google them.)

>> Not everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
>> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
>> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.

Divide the work up evenly: everyone spends 9/10 of the time doing the
"subservient" roles and 1/10 doing the "privileged" ones, instead of
1/10 of the people doing the "privileged" roles full-time and the other
9/10 none of the time.

Also, maybe the "subservient" roles don't seem that way when doing them
is wholly voluntary, rather than compelled by a horrific ethos of "work,
or you don't eat". Likewise, the "privileged" roles may not seem that
way if they don't pay better (or at all), or give any other perks (for
example, you don't get to bully the other workers if the other workers
can easily, without risking starvation or exposure, say "screw you, I'm
outta here" rather than submit to it).

> There was some rational thought going on. Picard owns a vineyard, probably because not
> everyone wants replicated wine, so some wants are still regulated by scarcity. The guy
> who sold tribbles sold them for something,

"Credits", presumably used in the fringe regions near Federation and
Klingon space. In other areas on the periphery of or outside the
Federation, "gold-pressed latinum" is used as currency.

> though Spock does say he has a modest living.

He may be referring to his level of consumption, rather than money; or,
given their propensity to travel (and sometimes have shore leave)
outside Federation borders, perhaps Starfleet personnel get allowances
in currencies like credits and latinum to spend there.

--
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain
the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks
"I get fooled all the time by the constant hosiery parade
in here." ~Checkmate

A Friend wrote:
>Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

>>Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
>>additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
>>narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
>>lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures.

>Link is

>https://gamerant.com/star-trek-problem-federation-economy

>Please stop hiding the links in the headers, Ubi.

It's far more likely that the contract to buy that bridge in Brooklyn
will be genuine than for Ubi to stop pretending he's the author and to
stop plagarizing.

On 2022-08-20 8:53 p.m., RichA wrote:
> On Saturday, 20 August 2022 at 21:06:08 UTC-4, Ubiquitous wrote:
>> Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
>> additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
>> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
>> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
>> these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
>> question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
>> organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
>> over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
>> spreads across a lot of the Federation — not just Earth — is their
>> ‘evolution’ away from currency and monetary importance. While this
>> sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
>>
>> The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
>> was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
>> days of The Next Generation. The Federation had grown almost complacent
>> over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
>> Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
>> something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
>> effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
>> achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
>> from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
>> at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
>> best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
>> culture.
>>
>> One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
>> was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
>> than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
>> wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
>> career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
>> explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
>> grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
>> in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
>> but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
>> wanted to make wine?

There probably is some vine-growing land that is up for grabs because
the previous owners released it to the government because they had no
interest in viticulture. Alternative they take off to one of the
underpopulated colonies that has some suitable land. They'd just have
to show the government that they were serious about their pursuit of
such a career.

How could one can they ‘buy’ a vineyard when money
>> no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
>> prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
>> suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
>> only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
>> what they were born into.
>>
>> The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko’s
>> New Orleans restaurant in Deep Space 9. It’s great for Sisko, but what
>> about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
>> area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
>> an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
>> which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
>> currency. If one doesn’t have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
>> they offer in exchange that the ‘wealthy’ (for want of a better word)
>> would not already have?
>>
>> The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
>> edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
>> people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
>> Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
>> widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
>> be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don’t need to
>> work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
>> function?
>>
>> Star Trek has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
>> systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
>> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
>> slave race.

Full AI probably isn't necessary for the really dirty jobs.

The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
>> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
>> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what’s the point if
>> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career?

Keeping the damn shrinks off your back.

Not
>> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
>> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
>> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>>
>> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
>> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
>> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
>> societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
>> notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
>> every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
>> has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
>> divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
>> poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
>> possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
>> elites, such as Picard.
>>
>> --
>> Let's go Brandon!
>
> There was some rational thought going on. Picard owns a vineyard, probably because not
> everyone wants replicated wine, so some wants are still regulated by scarcity. The guy who sold tribbles sold them for something, though
> Spock does say he has a modest living.

The guy who sold tribbles lived before Earth got taken over by the
commies.

On 2022-08-21 12:02 a.m., RichA wrote:
> Men used to have a sense of pride at providing for their family,

Patriarchal shit. Best that that remain in the dustbin of history.

> Working for the STATE to provide you a meagre existence sure didn't
> work except via a barrel of a gun.

And then, not for especially long. I'm not a big fan of crypto-feudal
dictatorships any more than I am of crypto-feudal laissez-faire
capitalism. Can't we have something that's *not* crypto-feudal, for once?

--
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain
the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks
"I get fooled all the time by the constant hosiery parade
in here." ~Checkmate

On 2022-08-21 1:26 a.m., David Johnston wrote:
> The guy who sold tribbles lived before Earth got taken over by the commies.

Nuh-uh. That had already happened by Kirk's time, as evidenced when on
one time-travel mission or another he remarked that "they still use
money in the 20th century; we need to find some".

--
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain
the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks
"I get fooled all the time by the constant hosiery parade
in here." ~Checkmate

In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:

> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.

We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.

> A Friend
> > BTR1701
> >
> > This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
> > which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>
> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the Enterprise carries
> gold for trading purposes.

That doesn't really work either, as "scanning" technology in the Trekverse is so advanced
that pretty much any ship could scan a bunch of asteroids until it finds one a mile wide
that is 90% gold, and there goes your gold-based economy.

On 8/21/2022 7:56 AM, Ed Stasiak wrote:
>> A Friend
>>> BTR1701
>>>
>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
>>> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>>
>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the Enterprise carries
>> gold for trading purposes.
>
> That doesn't really work either, as "scanning" technology in the Trekverse is so advanced
> that pretty much any ship could scan a bunch of asteroids until it finds one a mile wide
> that is 90% gold, and there goes your gold-based economy.

There's an armed cruiser, the U.S.S. DeBeers, that patrols the galaxy
for such blasphemies, with phasers set on 'transmutate'...

On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:

> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
>> economy,
>> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>
> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.

Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum
has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't
allow it to be replicated.

BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
> On Aug 20, 2022 at 6:04:30 PM PDT, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>
>> STAR TREK has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
>> additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
>> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
>> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
>> these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
>> question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
>> organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
>> over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
>> spreads across a lot of the Federation-- not just Earth-- is their
>> 'evolution' away from currency and monetary importance. While this
>> sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
>>
>> The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
>> was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
>> days of NEXT GENERATION. The Federation had grown almost complacent
>> over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
>> Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
>> something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
>> effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
>> achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
>> from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
>> at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
>> best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
>> culture.
>>
>> One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
>> was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
>> than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
>> wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
>> career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
>> explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
>> grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
>> in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
>> but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
>> wanted to make wine? How could one can they 'buy' a vineyard when money
>> no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
>> prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
>> suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
>> only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
>> what they were born into.
>
> I made this same point years ago in a STAR TREK discussion group. It was
during the DS9 era when episodes were airing showing Sisko and Jake back on
earth visiting his father's restaurant in New Orleans. It looked every bit
like any restaurant you might currently find in New Orleans and I was like,
"How does this work without money?"

And they talked about Jake or Ben having transporter rations so they could
come visit a lot but not every day. Somehow they have money in every way
shape and form except the name.

Do people just wander in, order some food,
eat it, and then get up and leave without paying for anything? And does
Daddy
Sisko just get supplies of meat, poultry, eggs, fish, flour, etc. from
farmers
who just drop it off, free of charge?
>
> With replicator technology, a lot of this becomes meaningless, but all
throughout the TNG-era shows, we've been led to believe that replicator
food
isn't as good as real food, so one assumes the appeal of a restaurant
like
Daddy Sisko's is that it's using real ingredients, cooked by real people,
so
the question then becomes how the hell does it all work?
>

Voyager is the biggest defender here. They said so many horrible things
about replicators and the holo deck that we can’t ever reconcile it. At
least if they’d crippled voyagers holo emitters in the pilot they could
rely on the fact that the system doesn’t work right.

Voyagers food replicators can’t make crisp celery. So every planet they
pass, Neelix takes a runabout down into a gravity well and looks around
randomly for crisp greens to cook with.

Apparently there’s some intrinsic difference between transporter technology
and food replicator technology and holodeck technology. We know replicator
food replicators use a different kind of power than anything else does.

But the systems are at least similar. If they can’t make crisp celery, are
you really going to ride in the transporter? Why the hell not just find
some celery you like and keep it in the transporter buffer and duplicate a
batch now and then? How can you possibly need crisp celery badly enough to
fly a spaceship to the bottom of a gravity well with every planet you pass?
How often do you feed the crew celery? Has anybody mentioned to Neelix that
there is no nutritional benefit in celery?

But then the trolley went completely off the tracks when they made a
restaurant on the hoodeck and people would be in there for days eating and
drinking while there was a food shortage on the real ship and nobody ever
suggested people just go to the holodeck to eat. Does the holodeck subtract
the food from you like it does everything else when you exit? If so, and
you’ve been in there for three days, why don’t you die when you leave?

> And then I pointed out exactly what that paragraph above described: How the
hell does someone who, say, wants to be a chef and run their own restaurant
actually *get* the restaurant? Do they just ask the government for a
building
with a fully-equipped kitchen and a completely furnished dining room and
the
government gives them one? That seems absurd, but otherwise, they
either have
to pay someone for a restaurant or pay someone to build them one. The only
alternative is that the answer is, if you're not already a chef who owns a
restaurant somehow-- like Picard's inherited vineyard-- then no, you can
never
become one.
>
>> The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko's
>> New Orleans restaurant in DEEP SPACE 9. It's great for Sisko, but what
>> about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
>> area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
>> an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
>> which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
>> currency. If one doesn't have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
>> they offer in exchange that the 'wealthy' (for want of a better word)
>> would not already have?
>>
>> The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
>> edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
>> people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
>> Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
>> widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
>> be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don't need to
>> work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
>> function?
>
> Yes, in the same DS9 restaurant episodes, there was a scene of Daddy Sisko
ordering around the busboys and line cooks, and I was like, "Why the hell
would someone who lives in a society where there's no need to work to live
conceivably take a job in a restaurant doing back-breaking work like busing
tables and mopping floors? Or cleaning toilets or any of the other things
that
one would think 24th-century technology could do but apparently doesn't?
>
>> STAR TREK has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
>> systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
>> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
>> slave race.

And then there’s the tailor who makes better clothes than the automatic
systems can. There’s just no way to defend that.

>
> I've always hated the way TREK portrays using technology to do rote, menial,
and/or unpleasant tasks is equated with 'creating a slave race'. Have I
enslaved my toaster when I force it to make me toast in the morning?
>
> How is using a computer that controls cleaning apparatus to clean a bathroom
become enslavement, but me currently forcing my computer to facilitate my
postings to Usenet not enslavement?
>
>> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
>> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
>> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables-- but what's the point if
>> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
>> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
>> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
>> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>>
>> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
>> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
>> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
>> societal dark underbellies are shown.
>
> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>

RichA <rander3128@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 20 August 2022 at 21:06:08 UTC-4, Ubiquitous wrote:
>> Star Trek has a huge universe that is constantly growing through the
>> additions of new shows and movies into the franchise. Holding up the
>> narratives and vast array of alien life forms is a solid foundation of
>> lore, fiction science, and various socio-political structures. Among
>> these is Starfleet, a military/exploration organization (the era in
>> question determines which aspect will have the emphasis). This
>> organization's history and formal structure has been fleshed out a lot
>> over the years. One of the key fundamentals of their culture, which
>> spreads across a lot of the Federation — not just Earth — is their
>> ‘evolution’ away from currency and monetary importance. While this
>> sounds utopian in design, it does create some fairly dark issues.
>>
>> The idea that the Federation had ridden itself of the need for money
>> was first introduced in the golden age of Starfleet, during the early
>> days of The Next Generation. The Federation had grown almost complacent
>> over the years of peace: the war with the Klingons had ended, and the
>> Romulans were keeping to themselves. Their evolution past money was
>> something pioneered by Gene Roddenberry, the show's creator, in an
>> effort to show the most ideal and utopian version of what humanity can
>> achieve in the distant future. As the show began to distance itself
>> from Roddenberry, however, who suffered a multitude of health problems
>> at the time, they began to drift away from his vision, often for the
>> best. And in later series, they began to poke holes in the moneyless
>> culture.
>>
>> One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
>> was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
>> than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
>> wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
>> career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
>> explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
>> grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
>> in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
>> but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
>> wanted to make wine? How could one can they ‘buy’ a vineyard when money
>> no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
>> prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
>> suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
>> only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
>> what they were born into.
>>
>> The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko’s
>> New Orleans restaurant in Deep Space 9. It’s great for Sisko, but what
>> about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
>> area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
>> an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
>> which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
>> currency. If one doesn’t have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
>> they offer in exchange that the ‘wealthy’ (for want of a better word)
>> would not already have?
>>
>> The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
>> edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
>> people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
>> Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
>> widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
>> be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don’t need to
>> work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
>> function?
>>
>> Star Trek has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
>> systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
>> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
>> slave race. The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
>> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
>> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables — but what’s the point if
>> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
>> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
>> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
>> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
>>
>> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
>> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
>> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
>> societal dark underbellies are shown. It may seem like a freeing
>> notion, to not be tied down by the necessity to make money each and
>> every day to survive. But strangely, by removing this, the Federation
>> has managed to find a way to solidify even further the massive class
>> divide that exists today. Ironically, it's impossible to eliminate
>> poverty by taking away all the money. It only seems like this is
>> possible because audiences are only shown the lives of the social
>> elites, such as Picard.
>>
>> --
>> Let's go Brandon!
>
> There was some rational thought going on. Picard owns a vineyard, probably because not
> everyone wants replicated wine, so some wants are still regulated by
> scarcity. The guy who sold tribbles sold them for something, though
> Spock does say he has a modest living.
> The man who played the man who was actually Merlin, Brahms, etc., having
> live several lifetimes
> owned a planet. But then maybe he bought it or traded for it from a non-human race?
>
>
>
>

As difficult as it is to imagine how the Federation economy works, it’s
impossible to imagine how it interfaces with any other system.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

In article
<1079020054.682755557.441654.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:

> BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

> > On Aug 20, 2022 at 6:04:30 PM PDT, "Ubiquitous" <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

> >> One such hole, vaguely conceptualized during the last season of TNG,
> >> was that the Federation economy was much more trapping and controlling
> >> than first appearances might suggest, and acted as a fairly solid brick
> >> wall for social mobility. The idea of limiting people into very narrow
> >> career paths and choices is present (shown rather than specifically
> >> explored) within the Picard show. In this series, the stoic captain has
> >> grown old, and has retired from Starfleet to run his ancestral vineyard
> >> in France. This is great for him, a man who has inherited this land,
> >> but what would happen if someone else wanted a change in career and
> >> wanted to make wine? How could one can they 'buy' a vineyard when money
> >> no longer exists? Picard shows that inherited wealth is still
> >> prevalent, as Picard explicitly owns the vineyard, and there is no
> >> suggestion of a communist or sharing scheme. The Federation economy
> >> only makes it harder for everyone else to achieve dreams unrelated to
> >> what they were born into.
> >
> > I made this same point years ago in a STAR TREK discussion group. It was
> > during the DS9 era when episodes were airing showing Sisko and Jake back
> > on earth visiting his father's restaurant in New Orleans. It looked every
> > bit like any restaurant you might currently find in New Orleans and I was
> > like, "How does this work without money?"
>
> And they talked about Jake or Ben having transporter rations so they could
> come visit a lot but not every day. Somehow they have money in every way
> shape and form except the name.
>
> > Do people just wander in, order some food, eat it, and then get up and
> > leave without paying for anything? And does Daddy Sisko just get supplies
> > of meat, poultry, eggs, fish, flour, etc. from farmers who just drop it
> > off, free of charge?
> >
> > With replicator technology, a lot of this becomes meaningless, but all
> > throughout the TNG-era shows, we've been led to believe that replicator
> > food isn't as good as real food, so one assumes the appeal of a restaurant
> > like Daddy Sisko's is that it's using real ingredients, cooked by real\
> > people, so the question then becomes how the hell does it all work?
>
> Voyager is the biggest offender here. They said so many horrible things
> about replicators and the holo deck that we can't ever reconcile it. At
> least if they’d crippled voyagers holo emitters in the pilot they could
> rely on the fact that the system doesn't work right.
>
> Voyagers food replicators can't make crisp celery. So every planet they
> pass, Neelix takes a runabout down into a gravity well and looks around
> randomly for crisp greens to cook with.
>
> Apparently there's some intrinsic difference between transporter technology
> and food replicator technology and holodeck technology. We know replicator
> food replicators use a different kind of power than anything else does.
>
> But the systems are at least similar. If they can’t make crisp celery, are
> you really going to ride in the transporter?

Yep, I always wondered why the hell they'd put their bodies into a
transporter if the damn thing couldn't replicate crisp celery.

> But then the trolley went completely off the tracks when they made a
> restaurant on the hoodeck and people would be in there for days eating and
> drinking while there was a food shortage on the real ship and nobody ever
> suggested people just go to the holodeck to eat. Does the holodeck subtract
> the food from you like it does everything else when you exit? If so, and
> you’ve been in there for three days, why don’t you die when you leave?

But in one of the first eps of TNG, we see Wesley emerging from the
holodeck in a ski outfit and the snow on his shoulders doesn't disappear
when he walks out into the corridor.

> > And then I pointed out exactly what that paragraph above described: How
> > the hell does someone who, say, wants to be a chef and run their own
> > restaurant actually *get* the restaurant? Do they just ask the government
> > for a building with a fully-equipped kitchen and a completely furnished
> > dining room and the government gives them one? That seems absurd, but
> > otherwise, they either have to pay someone for a restaurant or pay someone
> > to build them one. The only alternative is that the answer is, if you're
> > not already a chef who owns a restaurant somehow-- like Picard's inherited
> > vineyard-- then no, you can never become one.
> >
> >> The same issue is present with the morally ambiguous Captain Sisko's
> >> New Orleans restaurant in DEEP SPACE 9. It's great for Sisko, but what
> >> about someone else who wants to open up their own place in the same
> >> area? The lack of money eliminates even the possibility of purchasing
> >> an establishment. The only other option to rely on a barter system
> >> which, effectively, is a primitive and far less measurable form of
> >> currency. If one doesn't have the inherited wealth, what exactly can
> >> they offer in exchange that the 'wealthy' (for want of a better word)
> >> would not already have?
> >>
> >> The other issue that arises in a world without money is another double
> >> edge sword. Removing monetary incentive removes a massive pressure on
> >> people who are working endlessly to simply put food on the table. The
> >> Federation of the 24th century has eradicated world hunger through the
> >> widespread use of replicators, and providing shelter does not seem to
> >> be an issue. This creates a problem, however. If people don't need to
> >> work to live, who would do the unsavory jobs necessary for a society to
> >> function?
> >
> > Yes, in the same DS9 restaurant episodes, there was a scene of Daddy
> > Sisko ordering around the busboys and line cooks like drill sergeant,
> > and I was like, "Why the hell would someone who lives in a society where
> > there's no need to work to survive conceivably take a job in a restaurant
> > doing back-breaking work like busing tables and mopping floors? Or
> > cleaning toilets or any of the other things that one would think 24th-
> > century technology could do but apparently doesn't?
> >
> >> STAR TREK has provided half an answer for this, using AI and automated
> >> systems to carry out the majority of these functions, although this
> >> does raise another issue regarding the ethics of creating a permanent
> >> slave race.
>
> And then there's the tailor who makes better clothes than the automatic
> systems can. There's just no way to defend that.

Well, the computer's clothes don't come with a side order of spying,
so...

> > I've always hated the way TREK equates using technology to do rote,
> > menial, and/or unpleasant tasks with 'creating a slave race'. Have I
> > enslaved my toaster when I force it to make me toast in the morning?
> >
> > How is using a computer that controls cleaning apparatus to clean a
> > bathroom become enslavement, but me currently forcing my computer to
> > facilitate my postings to Usenet not enslavement?
> >
> >> The problem is only half solved, however, as through the
> >> various shows it is shown that there are still actual people who are in
> >> jobs such as bartending or waiting on tables-- but what's the point if
> >> there is no wage and no opportunity to progress in this career? Not
> >> everyone can be a business owner, so surely there must be ten
> >> subservient roles needed to be fulfilled for every one privileged
> >> owner, with no apparent way to escape this.
> >>
> >> The Federation economy is one of those science fiction concepts that
> >> sounds, on paper, to be utopian. But the further the concept is
> >> explored, the more holes can be found in its logic, and various
> >> societal dark underbellies are shown.
> >
> > This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
> > economy, in which no small number of Federation people seemed to
> > participate.
> >
> Gold pressed Latinum.

On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
> On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
>> <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
>>> economy,
>>> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>>
>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
>> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>
> Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
> replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum
> has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't
> allow it to be replicated.
>
TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <tdttn2$2ddrn$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

> On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
> > On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> >> <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
> >>> economy,
> >>> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> >>
> >> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> >> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
> >
> > Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
> > replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum
> > has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that won't
> > allow it to be replicated.
> >
> TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.

Well, they had something that hummed and produced their food out of
nothing for them.

In article <cgednXGcUce92Z_-nZ2dnZfqnPWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:

> On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> > <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
> >> economy,
> >> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> >
> > We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> > Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>
> Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
> replicate it as needed.

To repeat, we know from Kirk's dialogue that the Enterprise carries
gold for trading purposes.

We can assume that in TOS, which is set ~85 years before TNG,
replicator technology didn't yet exist. Ex: no Thanksgiving turkeys.

> We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed latinum has value--
> because there's something about its atomic structure that won't allow
> it to be replicated.

In article <atropos-B2C484.11420721082022@news.giganews.com>, BTR1701
<atropos@mac.com> wrote:

> In article <tdttn2$2ddrn$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
> > > On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
> > >> <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
> > >>> economy,
> > >>> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
> > >>
> > >> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
> > >> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
> > >
> > > Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
> > > replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed
> > > latinum
> > > has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that
> > > won't
> > > allow it to be replicated.
> > >
> > TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
>
> Well, they had something that hummed and produced their food out of
> nothing for them.

They once showed a snack being transported from the galley to the
transporter room. They never showed food being created out of nothing.

On 8/21/2022 12:25 PM, A Friend wrote:
> In article <atropos-B2C484.11420721082022@news.giganews.com>, BTR1701
> <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <tdttn2$2ddrn$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/21/2022 7:41 AM, BTR1701 wrote:
>>>> On Aug 21, 2022 at 4:19:32 AM PDT, "A Friend" <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <hI-cnRnzTd2xA5z-nZ2dnZfqnPrNnZ2d@giganews.com>, BTR1701
>>>>> <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole latinum-based
>>>>>> economy,
>>>>>> in which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.
>>>>>
>>>>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the
>>>>> Enterprise carries gold for trading purposes.
>>>>
>>>> Hell, the Enterprise doesn't need to carry gold. The Enterprise could just
>>>> replicate it as needed. We were told on DS9 that's why gold-pressed
>>>> latinum
>>>> has value-- because there's something about its atomic structure that
>>>> won't
>>>> allow it to be replicated.
>>>>
>>> TOS Enterprise did not have replicators.
>>
>> Well, they had something that hummed and produced their food out of
>> nothing for them.
>
>
> They once showed a snack being transported from the galley to the
> transporter room. They never showed food being created out of nothing.

And also showed Kirk speaking to the ship's cook about at least shaping
the food to look like a turkey in one episode. ;)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 2022-08-20 11:38 p.m., kensi wrote:
> On 2022-08-21 1:26 a.m., David Johnston wrote:
>> The guy who sold tribbles lived before Earth got taken over by the
>> commies.
>
> Nuh-uh. That had already happened by Kirk's time, as evidenced when on
> one time-travel mission or another he remarked that "they still use
> money in the 20th century; we need to find some".
>

That was in Star Trek IV, 20 years later so we can pinpoint the time
when the communist takeover happens...although at the time they probably
meant physical specie rather the abstract concept of money.

On 2022-08-21 5:56 a.m., Ed Stasiak wrote:
>> A Friend
>>> BTR1701
>>>
>>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based economy,
>>> which no small number of Federation people seemed to participate.

Latinum, not platinum.

>>
>> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the Enterprise carries
>> gold for trading purposes.
>
> That doesn't really work either, as "scanning" technology in the Trekverse is so advanced
> that pretty much any ship could scan a bunch of asteroids until it finds one a mile wide
> that is 90% gold, and there goes your gold-based economy.

Except there aren't any asteroids that are 90% gold. Gold is a
legitimately rare element in the universe at large.

Actually in Robert A. Heinlein's the Man Who Sold The Moon, one of the
protagonists many scams was having the people who went to the Moon carry
a small bag of diamond with the intent that they would come back and
claim they found the diamonds there. To his great alarm they come back
with a second bag and say there actually are diamonds all over the
ground there. He immediately tells them to keep it secret because that
would have a catastrophic impact on diamond prices and by extension the
global economy.

That put it on my list of SF stories with plot elements I just don't
buy. After all it doesn't matter how abundant a valuable commodity is
in a far off place if the transportation costs to get there and come
back vastly exceed the costs of just finding and extracting it locally.

In article <tdu3k1$1tgh$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2022-08-21 5:56 a.m., Ed Stasiak wrote:
> >> A Friend
> >>> BTR1701
> >>>
> >>> This doesn't even get into the Ferengi and their whole platinum-based
> >>> economy, in which no small number of Federation people seemed to
> >>> participate.
>
> Latinum, not platinum.

Take it up with that bitch Siri.

> >> We know from Kirk's dialogue in Mudd's Women (I think) that the Enterprise
> >> carries old for trading purposes.
> >
> > That doesn't really work either, as "scanning" technology in the Trekverse
> > is so advanced that pretty much any ship could scan a bunch of asteroids
> > until it finds one a mile wide that is 90% gold, and there goes your
> > gold-based economy.
>
> Except there aren't any asteroids that are 90% gold. Gold is a
> legitimately rare element in the universe at large.

You can't possibly know that.

> Actually in Robert A. Heinlein's the Man Who Sold The Moon, one of the
> protagonists many scams was having the people who went to the Moon carry
> a small bag of diamond with the intent that they would come back and
> claim they found the diamonds there. To his great alarm they come back
> with a second bag and say there actually are diamonds all over the
> ground there. He immediately tells them to keep it secret because that
> would have a catastrophic impact on diamond prices and by extension the
> global economy.

It rains diamonds on Neptune.

https://www.space.com/diamond-rain-atmosphere-uranus-neptune

> David Johnston
> > Ed Stasiak
> >
> > That doesn't really work either, as "scanning" technology in the Trekverse is so advanced
> > that pretty much any ship could scan a bunch of asteroids until it finds one a mile wide
> > that is 90% gold, and there goes your gold-based economy.
>
> Except there aren't any asteroids that are 90% gold. Gold is a legitimately rare element
> in the universe at large.

Sure there are, probably in our own solar system but even if not, a Trek ship could scan
a planet for gold deposits and use the also ubiquitous transporter technology to beam
the gold directly into the cargo hold and there goes your gold-based economy.