This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as much
as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight! The photos tell the story:

https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/news/article/in-photos-snow-squalls-large-enough-to-bury-cars-take-over-buffalo

You might be wondering why a Canadian would breathe a sigh of relief
that he wasn't in the Buffalo area, assuming that our weather would be
even worse but the fact is that being SOUTH of the Great Lakes is often
*WORSE* (in terms of winter weather) than being north of the Great
Lakes. It's called "Lake Effect" and it can mean that the area
immediately south of the Great Lakes can get MUCH more snow than areas
north of the lakes. I'm a beneficiary of that right now. We've had a bit
of snow this past week but it doesn't look like any more than 2 or 3
inches to me. The driving was a bit slick on occasion and there were
more accidents than usual but that's as bad as it got.

This is not to say that we don't get some pretty horrible weather on
occasion! I've seen blizzards as bad as what they have in Buffalo right
now on my side of the lakes. I still recall a sudden storm that dumped a
staggering amount of snow in just 12 hours; I was literally wading
through it because it was nearly up to my hips. (I"m 6ft 1 for
reference.) But here in Southern Ontario we only get blizzards like that
every few years; some winters, we hardly get any snow at all.)

If you ever find yourself forced to live in Canada, the two mildest
winters happen in the Vancouver area, which some winters doesn't even go
below freezing, and Southern Ontario, which is the next mildest area.

--
Rhino

On 11/19/2022 7:15 AM, Rhino wrote:
> This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as much
> as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight! The photos tell the story:
>
> https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/news/article/in-photos-snow-squalls-large-enough-to-bury-cars-take-over-buffalo
>
>
> You might be wondering why a Canadian would breathe a sigh of relief
> that he wasn't in the Buffalo area, assuming that our weather would be
> even worse but the fact is that being SOUTH of the Great Lakes is often
> *WORSE* (in terms of winter weather) than being north of the Great
> Lakes. It's called "Lake Effect" and it can mean that the area

Buffalo is East of the GL which is what makes the lake effect snow much
worse.

> immediately south of the Great Lakes can get MUCH more snow than areas
> north of the lakes. I'm a beneficiary of that right now. We've had a bit
> of snow this past week but it doesn't look like any more than 2 or 3
> inches to me. The driving was a bit slick on occasion and there were
> more accidents than usual but that's as bad as it got.
>
> This is not to say that we don't get some pretty horrible weather on
> occasion! I've seen blizzards as bad as what they have in Buffalo right
> now on my side of the lakes. I still recall a sudden storm that dumped a
> staggering amount of snow in just 12 hours; I was literally wading
> through it because it was nearly up to my hips. (I"m 6ft 1 for
> reference.) But here in Southern Ontario we only get blizzards like that
> every few years; some winters, we hardly get any snow at all.)
>
> If you ever find yourself forced to live in Canada, the two mildest
> winters happen in the Vancouver area, which some winters doesn't even go
> below freezing, and Southern Ontario, which is the next mildest area.
>
>

On 2022-11-19 11:22 AM, suzeeq wrote:
> On 11/19/2022 7:15 AM, Rhino wrote:
>> This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as
>> much as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight! The photos tell the
>> story:
>>
>> https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/news/article/in-photos-snow-squalls-large-enough-to-bury-cars-take-over-buffalo
>>
>> You might be wondering why a Canadian would breathe a sigh of relief
>> that he wasn't in the Buffalo area, assuming that our weather would be
>> even worse but the fact is that being SOUTH of the Great Lakes is
>> often *WORSE* (in terms of winter weather) than being north of the
>> Great Lakes. It's called "Lake Effect" and it can mean that the area
>
> Buffalo is East of the GL which is what makes the lake effect snow much
> worse.

Excuse my sloppy phrasing. Generally, people in this area - and I
suspect most of our two countries - think of the United States as being
south of Canada and that assumption litters our speech but technically,
you are correct. If I cross into the US at Niagara Falls or Fort Erie, I
am going east, not south. (And if I cross at Windsor, I go due west to
Detroit, not south.) Buffalo is right at the eastern tip of Lake Erie
and a short distance due south of the western end of Lake Ontario.
>
>> immediately south of the Great Lakes can get MUCH more snow than areas
>> north of the lakes. I'm a beneficiary of that right now. We've had a
>> bit of snow this past week but it doesn't look like any more than 2 or
>> 3 inches to me. The driving was a bit slick on occasion and there were
>> more accidents than usual but that's as bad as it got.
>>
>> This is not to say that we don't get some pretty horrible weather on
>> occasion! I've seen blizzards as bad as what they have in Buffalo
>> right now on my side of the lakes. I still recall a sudden storm that
>> dumped a staggering amount of snow in just 12 hours; I was literally
>> wading through it because it was nearly up to my hips. (I"m 6ft 1 for
>> reference.) But here in Southern Ontario we only get blizzards like
>> that every few years; some winters, we hardly get any snow at all.)
>>
>> If you ever find yourself forced to live in Canada, the two mildest
>> winters happen in the Vancouver area, which some winters doesn't even
>> go below freezing, and Southern Ontario, which is the next mildest area.
>>
>>
>

--
Rhino

In article <tlartq$37b45$1@dont-email.me>, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

> This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as much
> as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight!

It's early, but they're used to heavy snow. I spent a lot of time up
there about fifty years ago and am still very fond of Buffalo and its
suburbs.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 10:15:05 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as much
>as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight! The photos tell the story:

Wasn't there that line in "A Chorus Line" saying "committing suicide
in Buffalo is superfluous"?

Besides the quantity of snow falling isn't directly related to the
temperature other than being below freezing. Both Toronto (which I've
lived in) and Buffalo (which I haven't) get more snow than Winnipeg
(which I've also lived in) or Minneapolis (which I've driven through)
despite Winnipeg and Minneapolis having colder winters than Toronto
and Buffalo.

(We've already had snow in Vancouver though it never got below -2C)

>https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/news/article/in-photos-snow-squalls-large-enough-to-bury-cars-take-over-buffalo
>
>You might be wondering why a Canadian would breathe a sigh of relief
>that he wasn't in the Buffalo area, assuming that our weather would be
>even worse but the fact is that being SOUTH of the Great Lakes is often
>*WORSE* (in terms of winter weather) than being north of the Great
>Lakes. It's called "Lake Effect" and it can mean that the area
>immediately south of the Great Lakes can get MUCH more snow than areas
>north of the lakes. I'm a beneficiary of that right now. We've had a bit
>of snow this past week but it doesn't look like any more than 2 or 3
>inches to me. The driving was a bit slick on occasion and there were
>more accidents than usual but that's as bad as it got.
>
>This is not to say that we don't get some pretty horrible weather on
>occasion! I've seen blizzards as bad as what they have in Buffalo right
>now on my side of the lakes. I still recall a sudden storm that dumped a
>staggering amount of snow in just 12 hours; I was literally wading
>through it because it was nearly up to my hips. (I"m 6ft 1 for
>reference.) But here in Southern Ontario we only get blizzards like that
>every few years; some winters, we hardly get any snow at all.)
>
>If you ever find yourself forced to live in Canada, the two mildest
>winters happen in the Vancouver area, which some winters doesn't even go
>below freezing, and Southern Ontario, which is the next mildest area.

Well with all due respect Toronto is considerably further south than
Portland, OR with Detroit / Windsor being further south yet. (Never
been to Windsor but have been to Sarnia)

On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 11:55:19 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>Excuse my sloppy phrasing. Generally, people in this area - and I
>suspect most of our two countries - think of the United States as being
>south of Canada and that assumption litters our speech but technically,
>you are correct. If I cross into the US at Niagara Falls or Fort Erie, I
>am going east, not south. (And if I cross at Windsor, I go due west to
>Detroit, not south.) Buffalo is right at the eastern tip of Lake Erie
>and a short distance due south of the western end of Lake Ontario.

No - the western end of Lake Ontario is the Burlington / Hamilton, ON
area - Buffalo is about a little over an hour's drive east of
Hamilton. (Never been to Buffalo but have been to nearby Niagara Falls
- as you'll recall I'm a McMaster grad and my late wife was a
Burlington girl)

(The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas Slough which has
Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact - to the south and the Royal
Botanical Gardens on the south side of Burlington which I assume is
still there - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway 427 which is kind
of a Canadian Interstate highway type road.)

I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one area I do know :)

But then southern Ontario (also one of the densest populated areas of
Canada) is the southernmost tip of Canada.

On 2022-11-19 9:22 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 11:55:19 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> Excuse my sloppy phrasing. Generally, people in this area - and I
>> suspect most of our two countries - think of the United States as being
>> south of Canada and that assumption litters our speech but technically,
>> you are correct. If I cross into the US at Niagara Falls or Fort Erie, I
>> am going east, not south. (And if I cross at Windsor, I go due west to
>> Detroit, not south.) Buffalo is right at the eastern tip of Lake Erie
>> and a short distance due south of the western end of Lake Ontario.
>
> No - the western end of Lake Ontario is the Burlington / Hamilton, ON
> area - Buffalo is about a little over an hour's drive east of
> Hamilton. (Never been to Buffalo but have been to nearby Niagara Falls
> - as you'll recall I'm a McMaster grad and my late wife was a
> Burlington girl)
>
> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas Slough which has
> Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact - to the south and the Royal
> Botanical Gardens on the south side of Burlington which I assume is
> still there - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway 427 which is kind
> of a Canadian Interstate highway type road.)
>
> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one area I do know :)

If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake Ontario is further
west than the eastern tip of Lake Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at
the western tip of Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the Niagara River which
is very close to running exactly due south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON,
which is at the northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into the eastern tip of
Lake Erie.

Or to put it graphically (a picture is worth a thousand words):
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Buffalo,+NY,+USA/@42.8963434,-79.4247476,9z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x89d3126152dfe5a1:0x982304a5181f8171!8m2!3d42.8864468!4d-78.8783689!16zL20vMDE5Zmg

(You may have to zoom out a bit to see everything I'm describing.)

I described Buffalo as a "short distance" south of the western end of
Lake Ontario. Note that I said the western END, not the western tip ;-)

We might disagree on it being a short distance though. "Short" is one of
those words that means different things to different people. On the map
I'm looking at, it's not very far from Niagara-on-the-Lake to Buffalo.
I've been to Buffalo a couple of times but never to Niagara-on-the-Lake
so I couldn't tell you what the driving time would be from my own
experience. However, Google Maps says it's between 44 and 48 minutes
depending on which route you take (and excludes the time to cross the
border). That's pretty close in my book but if you define "short
distance" as something where you can see the destination from the
starting point, then it's definitely NOT a short distance.
>
> But then southern Ontario (also one of the densest populated areas of
> Canada) is the southernmost tip of Canada.

The southernmost tip of Ontario, Point Pelee, is actually on the same
latitude as Northern California. That tends to surprise Canadians AND
Americans when they hear it.

--
Rhino

On 2022-11-19 9:15 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 10:15:05 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as much
>> as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight! The photos tell the story:
>
> Wasn't there that line in "A Chorus Line" saying "committing suicide
> in Buffalo is superfluous"?
>
> Besides the quantity of snow falling isn't directly related to the
> temperature other than being below freezing. Both Toronto (which I've
> lived in) and Buffalo (which I haven't) get more snow than Winnipeg
> (which I've also lived in) or Minneapolis (which I've driven through)
> despite Winnipeg and Minneapolis having colder winters than Toronto
> and Buffalo.
>
Winnipeg gets less snow than Toronto? I have to admit that's a surprise
to me. Toronto doesn't typically get a whole lot of snow and I've always
assumed Winterpeg got a LOT. So Winterpeg is only miserable because it's
so bloody cold, not because it gets a lot of snow?

While we're on the subject of Manitoba weather, is it fair to say that
Manitoba has a much sunnier winter than southern Ontario? I've always
found late fall and winter in Ontario almost always overcast. Sunny days
*do* happen but are much more the exception than the rule. But I
remember talking to a work colleague who had just moved to Ontario from
Manitoba and she told me it was very frequently sunny in Manitoba in the
winter. (I'm not sure where she was from in Manitoba but it may have
been Dauphin.)

> (We've already had snow in Vancouver though it never got below -2C)

Am I correct in believing that in Vancouver (and vicinity) you can go
the whole winter without ever going below 0C? That was certainly my
impression when I used to watch Canada AM every weekday morning and the
temperature rarely went below, say, 7C. It always seemed to be at least
a minor story when Vancouver got snow and traffic would get snarled up
because most of the locals didn't have snow tires and many didn't know
how to drive on slick roads.

I remember being in Victoria on business in November one year and the
temperature went down to -1C and there were a few snow flurries. The
locals were all cursing the weather and the cold and jokingly telling me
to take my lousy Toronto weather back there with me ;-)
>
>> https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/news/article/in-photos-snow-squalls-large-enough-to-bury-cars-take-over-buffalo
>>
>> You might be wondering why a Canadian would breathe a sigh of relief
>> that he wasn't in the Buffalo area, assuming that our weather would be
>> even worse but the fact is that being SOUTH of the Great Lakes is often
>> *WORSE* (in terms of winter weather) than being north of the Great
>> Lakes. It's called "Lake Effect" and it can mean that the area
>> immediately south of the Great Lakes can get MUCH more snow than areas
>> north of the lakes. I'm a beneficiary of that right now. We've had a bit
>> of snow this past week but it doesn't look like any more than 2 or 3
>> inches to me. The driving was a bit slick on occasion and there were
>> more accidents than usual but that's as bad as it got.
>>
>> This is not to say that we don't get some pretty horrible weather on
>> occasion! I've seen blizzards as bad as what they have in Buffalo right
>> now on my side of the lakes. I still recall a sudden storm that dumped a
>> staggering amount of snow in just 12 hours; I was literally wading
>> through it because it was nearly up to my hips. (I"m 6ft 1 for
>> reference.) But here in Southern Ontario we only get blizzards like that
>> every few years; some winters, we hardly get any snow at all.)
>>
>> If you ever find yourself forced to live in Canada, the two mildest
>> winters happen in the Vancouver area, which some winters doesn't even go
>> below freezing, and Southern Ontario, which is the next mildest area.
>
> Well with all due respect Toronto is considerably further south than
> Portland, OR with Detroit / Windsor being further south yet. (Never
> been to Windsor but have been to Sarnia)

That's exactly why I'm advising anyone who has to winter in Canada that
some parts of the country are much milder than the foreign stereotype
that sees all parts of the country like the Far North with 10 months of
winter and temperatures that are -50C for months on end with nearly
non-stop blizzards like the one that hit Buffalo.

--
Rhino

On 11/20/22 8:20 AM, RichA wrote:
> On Saturday, 19 November 2022 at 11:22:55 UTC-5, suzeeq wrote:
>> On 11/19/2022 7:15 AM, Rhino wrote:
>>> This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as much
>>> as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight! The photos tell the story:
>>>
>>> https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/news/article/in-photos-snow-squalls-large-enough-to-bury-cars-take-over-buffalo
>>>
>>>
>>> You might be wondering why a Canadian would breathe a sigh of relief
>>> that he wasn't in the Buffalo area, assuming that our weather would be
>>> even worse but the fact is that being SOUTH of the Great Lakes is often
>>> *WORSE* (in terms of winter weather) than being north of the Great
>>> Lakes. It's called "Lake Effect" and it can mean that the area
>> Buffalo is East of the GL which is what makes the lake effect snow much
>> worse.
>>> immediately south of the Great Lakes can get MUCH more snow than areas
>>> north of the lakes. I'm a beneficiary of that right now. We've had a bit
>>> of snow this past week but it doesn't look like any more than 2 or 3
>>> inches to me. The driving was a bit slick on occasion and there were
>>> more accidents than usual but that's as bad as it got.
>>>
>>> This is not to say that we don't get some pretty horrible weather on
>>> occasion! I've seen blizzards as bad as what they have in Buffalo right
>>> now on my side of the lakes. I still recall a sudden storm that dumped a
>>> staggering amount of snow in just 12 hours; I was literally wading
>>> through it because it was nearly up to my hips. (I"m 6ft 1 for
>>> reference.) But here in Southern Ontario we only get blizzards like that
>>> every few years; some winters, we hardly get any snow at all.)
>>>
>>> If you ever find yourself forced to live in Canada, the two mildest
>>> winters happen in the Vancouver area, which some winters doesn't even go
>>> below freezing, and Southern Ontario, which is the next mildest area.
>>>
>>>
>
> Which is why in Toronto, just 90 miles away, the skies are clear, no snow.

Holy fuck that's interesting. Crack sales can go on unhindered.

Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as much
>as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight! . . .

You'd think years ago somebody would have built mountains here to take
the skiing business away from Jackson Hole and Aspen.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas Slough which has
>> Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact - to the south and the Royal
>> Botanical Gardens on the south side of Burlington which I assume is
>> still there - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
>> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway 427 which is kind
>> of a Canadian Interstate highway type road.)
>>
>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one area I do know :)
>
>If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake Ontario is further
>west than the eastern tip of Lake Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at
>the western tip of Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
>along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the Niagara River which
>is very close to running exactly due south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON,
>which is at the northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
>southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into the eastern tip of
>Lake Erie.

I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse than 35 years ago
when I last drove it :)

Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to Buffalo though
obviously I know where it is.

No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the norm and the
Internet hadn't yet entirely moved outside academia.

Among other memories I once crossed the Queen Elizabeth Way in
Burlington on foot. I've heard traffic is much heavier now and to be
sure I waited 15 minutes for a large gap in traffic. I had no
intention of risking my life these days and had time to be patient -
among other things it was a beautiful day in July. (The QEW is
essentially an Interstate highway type road and in this particular
section is about 20 feet below the roadways on either side fortunately
with nice grassy slopes. I had an old map and the GO station - which
in Burlington was then buses - had moved across the highway. Haven't
been there since my father in law's funeral some 12 years ago)

On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>Or to put it graphically (a picture is worth a thousand words):
>https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Buffalo,+NY,+USA/@42.8963434,-79.4247476,9z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x89d3126152dfe5a1:0x982304a5181f8171!8m2!3d42.8864468!4d-78.8783689!16zL20vMDE5Zmg
>
>(You may have to zoom out a bit to see everything I'm describing.)
>
>I described Buffalo as a "short distance" south of the western end of
>Lake Ontario. Note that I said the western END, not the western tip ;-)

No I did get that :)

>We might disagree on it being a short distance though. "Short" is one of
>those words that means different things to different people. On the map
>I'm looking at, it's not very far from Niagara-on-the-Lake to Buffalo.
>I've been to Buffalo a couple of times but never to Niagara-on-the-Lake
>so I couldn't tell you what the driving time would be from my own
>experience. However, Google Maps says it's between 44 and 48 minutes
>depending on which route you take (and excludes the time to cross the
>border). That's pretty close in my book but if you define "short
>distance" as something where you can see the destination from the
>starting point, then it's definitely NOT a short distance.
>>
>> But then southern Ontario (also one of the densest populated areas of
>> Canada) is the southernmost tip of Canada.
>
>The southernmost tip of Ontario, Point Pelee, is actually on the same
>latitude as Northern California. That tends to surprise Canadians AND
>Americans when they hear it.

Actually I knew that and one of my fellow MBA students was from near
there. One thing for sure - that part of Ontario has much colder
winters than any part of California other than the northern mountain
passes though that's the WARM part of Ontario. (Nothing like Sault
Ste. Marie in winter.....)

On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:34:00 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>On 2022-11-19 9:15 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 10:15:05 -0500, Rhino
>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as much
>>> as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight! The photos tell the story:
>>
>> Wasn't there that line in "A Chorus Line" saying "committing suicide
>> in Buffalo is superfluous"?
>>
>> Besides the quantity of snow falling isn't directly related to the
>> temperature other than being below freezing. Both Toronto (which I've
>> lived in) and Buffalo (which I haven't) get more snow than Winnipeg
>> (which I've also lived in) or Minneapolis (which I've driven through)
>> despite Winnipeg and Minneapolis having colder winters than Toronto
>> and Buffalo.
>>
>Winnipeg gets less snow than Toronto? I have to admit that's a surprise
>to me. Toronto doesn't typically get a whole lot of snow and I've always
>assumed Winterpeg got a LOT. So Winterpeg is only miserable because it's
>so bloody cold, not because it gets a lot of snow?

Typing 'how much snow in Winnipeg?' and 'how much snow in Toronto'
into Google gives about 10% more for Toronto so that's not a huge
difference. Of course we're talking roughly 15-20 degrees Celsius
colder in January with the downtown wind tunnelling effect making it
seem colder. They used to talk about "40/40 weather" in Winnipeg which
was -40 temperature with 40 mph winds which was an exaggeration but
not by much.

>While we're on the subject of Manitoba weather, is it fair to say that
>Manitoba has a much sunnier winter than southern Ontario? I've always
>found late fall and winter in Ontario almost always overcast. Sunny days
>*do* happen but are much more the exception than the rule. But I
>remember talking to a work colleague who had just moved to Ontario from
>Manitoba and she told me it was very frequently sunny in Manitoba in the
>winter. (I'm not sure where she was from in Manitoba but it may have
>been Dauphin.)

Have never been to Dauphin but on non-snow days (where visibility
would be near zero) yes southern Manitoba does have more sunshine in
winter. I spent very little time in downtown Toronto since I worked
near the 401/404 cloverleaf and lived first on the Toronto/Scarborough
border about 2 mi N of the 401 then in Pickering which is the first
small town directly E of Metro Toronto. (What can I say - it was our
first house and was nice enough and what we could afford - if life had
turned out differently my kids might have been raised there)
>
>> (We've already had snow in Vancouver though it never got below -2C)
>
>Am I correct in believing that in Vancouver (and vicinity) you can go
>the whole winter without ever going below 0C? That was certainly my
>impression when I used to watch Canada AM every weekday morning and the
>temperature rarely went below, say, 7C. It always seemed to be at least
>a minor story when Vancouver got snow and traffic would get snarled up
>because most of the locals didn't have snow tires and many didn't know
>how to drive on slick roads.

That would be rare though the typical downtown higher temperatures
might make that true downtown. My place is right on the edge of the
forest on the North Shore - about 4 weeks ago my daughter was walking
the dog and encountered a bear in our front yard - literally - though
at this time of year hibernation (in the hills beyond) has mostly
started. This particular critter would have been 4-5 miles outside its
usual range.
>
>I remember being in Victoria on business in November one year and the
>temperature went down to -1C and there were a few snow flurries. The
>locals were all cursing the weather and the cold and jokingly telling me
>to take my lousy Toronto weather back there with me ;-)
>>
>>> https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/news/article/in-photos-snow-squalls-large-enough-to-bury-cars-take-over-buffalo

Victoria is about 50 miles S of Vancouver and is generally closer to
Seattle temperatures than those of Vancouver. It is probably the
warmest Canadian city over 1/4 million people.

>> Well with all due respect Toronto is considerably further south than
>> Portland, OR with Detroit / Windsor being further south yet. (Never
>> been to Windsor but have been to Sarnia)
>
>That's exactly why I'm advising anyone who has to winter in Canada that
>some parts of the country are much milder than the foreign stereotype
>that sees all parts of the country like the Far North with 10 months of
>winter and temperatures that are -50C for months on end with nearly
>non-stop blizzards like the one that hit Buffalo.

Never saw -50 in my 4 years in Winnipeg but definitely DID see that
with the wind chill factor included. Toronto is part of the midwest
continental climate system whereas the west coast is moderated by the
ocean current. My mother told of one magic winter in her teens when
Lost Lagoon in Stanley Park froze enough for public skating but I have
never seen that (though I've seen it freeze many times) New
Westminster has outdoor box lacrosse ovals and you'd be amazed how
many visiting Torontonians think they're outdoor hockey rinks!

But then any non-Canadian who have read this far must surely have
picked up on the fact that most non-Torontonians tend to mock Toronto
people at least as much as Americans mock New Yorkers! (And for the
same reasons

On 11/20/2022 10:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas Slough which has
>>> Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact - to the south and the Royal
>>> Botanical Gardens on the south side of Burlington which I assume is
>>> still there - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
>>> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway 427 which is kind
>>> of a Canadian Interstate highway type road.)
>>>
>>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one area I do know :)
>>
>> If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake Ontario is further
>> west than the eastern tip of Lake Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at
>> the western tip of Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
>> along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the Niagara River which
>> is very close to running exactly due south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON,
>> which is at the northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
>> southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into the eastern tip of
>> Lake Erie.
>
> I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse than 35 years ago
> when I last drove it :)
>
> Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to Buffalo though
> obviously I know where it is.
>
> No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the norm and the
> Internet hadn't yet entirely moved outside academia.

I still refer to road atlases for looking at highways, city locations
and maps. Google maps is good for street to street references, but lousy
at telling you where you are in the country, any country compared to
other cities.
>

On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 10:59:35 AM UTC-6, A Friend wrote:
> In article <tlartq$37b45$1...@dont-email.me>, Rhino
> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>
> > This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as much
> > as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight!
> It's early, but they're used to heavy snow. I spent a lot of time up
> there about fifty years ago and am still very fond of Buffalo and its
> suburbs.

Until your Dodge Dart rusted out?

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 8:20:43 AM UTC-6, RichA wrote:
> On Saturday, 19 November 2022 at 11:22:55 UTC-5, suzeeq wrote:
> > On 11/19/2022 7:15 AM, Rhino wrote:
> > > This is not a good time to live anywhere near Buffalo. They got as much
> > > as 4 feet of snow in some areas overnight! The photos tell the story:
> > >
> > > https://www.theweathernetwork.com/ca/news/article/in-photos-snow-squalls-large-enough-to-bury-cars-take-over-buffalo
> > >
> > >
> > > You might be wondering why a Canadian would breathe a sigh of relief
> > > that he wasn't in the Buffalo area, assuming that our weather would be
> > > even worse but the fact is that being SOUTH of the Great Lakes is often
> > > *WORSE* (in terms of winter weather) than being north of the Great
> > > Lakes. It's called "Lake Effect" and it can mean that the area
> > Buffalo is East of the GL which is what makes the lake effect snow much
> > worse.
> > > immediately south of the Great Lakes can get MUCH more snow than areas
> > > north of the lakes. I'm a beneficiary of that right now. We've had a bit
> > > of snow this past week but it doesn't look like any more than 2 or 3
> > > inches to me. The driving was a bit slick on occasion and there were
> > > more accidents than usual but that's as bad as it got.
> > >
> > > This is not to say that we don't get some pretty horrible weather on
> > > occasion! I've seen blizzards as bad as what they have in Buffalo right
> > > now on my side of the lakes. I still recall a sudden storm that dumped a
> > > staggering amount of snow in just 12 hours; I was literally wading
> > > through it because it was nearly up to my hips. (I"m 6ft 1 for
> > > reference.) But here in Southern Ontario we only get blizzards like that
> > > every few years; some winters, we hardly get any snow at all.)
> > >
> > > If you ever find yourself forced to live in Canada, the two mildest
> > > winters happen in the Vancouver area, which some winters doesn't even go
> > > below freezing, and Southern Ontario, which is the next mildest area.
> > >
> > >
> Which is why in Toronto, just 90 miles away, the skies are clear, no snow..

Gov. Hochul declared an emergency. I get how people from there develop eyebrow arches forming the letter B (for Buffalo?). The November 4 episode of People's Court had a failed eyebrow tattoo case with gratuitous arching by the litigants but not Judge Marilyn.
Can NYS residents pull a Putin and annex Ontario? Toronto is outside the snow zone

suzeeq wrote:

> On 11/20/2022 10:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas
>>>> Slough which has Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact
>>>> - to the south and the Royal Botanical Gardens on the
>>>> south side of Burlington which I assume is still there
>>>> - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
>>>> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway
>>>> 427 which is kind of a Canadian Interstate highway type
>>>> road.)
>>>>
>>>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one
>>>> area I do know :)
>>>
>>> If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake
>>> Ontario is further west than the eastern tip of Lake
>>> Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at the western tip of
>>> Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
>>> along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the
>>> Niagara River which is very close to running exactly due
>>> south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON, which is at the
>>> northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
>>> southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into
>>> the eastern tip of Lake Erie.
>>
>> I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse than
>> 35 years ago when I last drove it :)
>>
>> Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to
>> Buffalo though obviously I know where it is.
>>
>> No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the norm
>> and the Internet hadn't yet entirely moved outside
>> academia.
>
> I still refer to road atlases for looking at highways,
> city locations and maps. Google maps is good for street to
> street references, but lousy at telling you where you are
> in the country, any country compared to other cities.
>>
Ditto! I want to see where places are in relation to
each other and also places of interest, terrain, rivers,
and the like. I simply can't get the right feel for it
unless I use a paper map or atlas.

I still ask people I know who are traveling out of state
to pick up a state map for me (usually freebies from state
tourist welcome centers) or even those one-page city maps
from car rental places.

They come in handy when I'm reading a book too that is
set in an area I don't know well so I can get familiar
with towns and roads that might be mentioned.

Nyssa, who thinks map reading is becoming a lost art
among the younger generations just like cursive writing
and reading an analog clock

On 11/21/2022 7:19 AM, Nyssa wrote:
> suzeeq wrote:
>
>> On 11/20/2022 10:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas
>>>>> Slough which has Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact
>>>>> - to the south and the Royal Botanical Gardens on the
>>>>> south side of Burlington which I assume is still there
>>>>> - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
>>>>> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway
>>>>> 427 which is kind of a Canadian Interstate highway type
>>>>> road.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one
>>>>> area I do know :)
>>>>
>>>> If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake
>>>> Ontario is further west than the eastern tip of Lake
>>>> Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at the western tip of
>>>> Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
>>>> along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the
>>>> Niagara River which is very close to running exactly due
>>>> south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON, which is at the
>>>> northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
>>>> southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into
>>>> the eastern tip of Lake Erie.
>>>
>>> I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse than
>>> 35 years ago when I last drove it :)
>>>
>>> Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to
>>> Buffalo though obviously I know where it is.
>>>
>>> No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the norm
>>> and the Internet hadn't yet entirely moved outside
>>> academia.
>>
>> I still refer to road atlases for looking at highways,
>> city locations and maps. Google maps is good for street to
>> street references, but lousy at telling you where you are
>> in the country, any country compared to other cities.
>>>
> Ditto! I want to see where places are in relation to
> each other and also places of interest, terrain, rivers,
> and the like. I simply can't get the right feel for it
> unless I use a paper map or atlas.
>
> I still ask people I know who are traveling out of state
> to pick up a state map for me (usually freebies from state
> tourist welcome centers) or even those one-page city maps
> from car rental places.
>
> They come in handy when I'm reading a book too that is
> set in an area I don't know well so I can get familiar
> with towns and roads that might be mentioned.

I do that too!! I guess we're map junkies.
>
> Nyssa, who thinks map reading is becoming a lost art
> among the younger generations just like cursive writing
> and reading an analog clock
>
Their loss.

Nyssa <Nyssa@LogicalInsight.net> wrote:
>suzeeq wrote:
>
>> On 11/20/2022 10:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas
>>>>> Slough which has Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact
>>>>> - to the south and the Royal Botanical Gardens on the
>>>>> south side of Burlington which I assume is still there
>>>>> - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
>>>>> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway
>>>>> 427 which is kind of a Canadian Interstate highway type
>>>>> road.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one
>>>>> area I do know :)
>>>>
>>>> If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake
>>>> Ontario is further west than the eastern tip of Lake
>>>> Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at the western tip of
>>>> Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
>>>> along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the
>>>> Niagara River which is very close to running exactly due
>>>> south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON, which is at the
>>>> northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
>>>> southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into
>>>> the eastern tip of Lake Erie.
>>>
>>> I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse than
>>> 35 years ago when I last drove it :)
>>>
>>> Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to
>>> Buffalo though obviously I know where it is.
>>>
>>> No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the norm
>>> and the Internet hadn't yet entirely moved outside
>>> academia.
>>
>> I still refer to road atlases for looking at highways,
>> city locations and maps. Google maps is good for street to
>> street references, but lousy at telling you where you are
>> in the country, any country compared to other cities.
>>>
>Ditto! I want to see where places are in relation to
>each other and also places of interest, terrain, rivers,
>and the like. I simply can't get the right feel for it
>unless I use a paper map or atlas.
>
>I still ask people I know who are traveling out of state
>to pick up a state map for me (usually freebies from state
>tourist welcome centers) or even those one-page city maps
>from car rental places.
>
>They come in handy when I'm reading a book too that is
>set in an area I don't know well so I can get familiar
>with towns and roads that might be mentioned.
>
>Nyssa, who thinks map reading is becoming a lost art
>among the younger generations just like cursive writing
>and reading an analog clock

A good friend is a cartographer but kids today just know that GIS rules
and no human intervention to improve map readability is needed these
day, so anyone can make a map by having software spit it out.

It's just not true.

On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 10:19:29 -0500, Nyssa <Nyssa@LogicalInsight.net>
wrote:

>suzeeq wrote:
>
>> On 11/20/2022 10:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas
>>>>> Slough which has Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact
>>>>> - to the south and the Royal Botanical Gardens on the
>>>>> south side of Burlington which I assume is still there
>>>>> - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
>>>>> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway
>>>>> 427 which is kind of a Canadian Interstate highway type
>>>>> road.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one
>>>>> area I do know :)
>>>>
>>>> If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake
>>>> Ontario is further west than the eastern tip of Lake
>>>> Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at the western tip of
>>>> Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
>>>> along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the
>>>> Niagara River which is very close to running exactly due
>>>> south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON, which is at the
>>>> northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
>>>> southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into
>>>> the eastern tip of Lake Erie.
>>>
>>> I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse than
>>> 35 years ago when I last drove it :)
>>>
>>> Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to
>>> Buffalo though obviously I know where it is.
>>>
>>> No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the norm
>>> and the Internet hadn't yet entirely moved outside
>>> academia.
>>
>> I still refer to road atlases for looking at highways,
>> city locations and maps. Google maps is good for street to
>> street references, but lousy at telling you where you are
>> in the country, any country compared to other cities.
>>>
>Ditto! I want to see where places are in relation to
>each other and also places of interest, terrain, rivers,
>and the like. I simply can't get the right feel for it
>unless I use a paper map or atlas.
>
>I still ask people I know who are traveling out of state
>to pick up a state map for me (usually freebies from state
>tourist welcome centers) or even those one-page city maps
>from car rental places.
>
>They come in handy when I'm reading a book too that is
>set in an area I don't know well so I can get familiar
>with towns and roads that might be mentioned.
>
>Nyssa, who thinks map reading is becoming a lost art
>among the younger generations just like cursive writing
>and reading an analog clock

Those I keep in my car since I'm a strident non-cellular junkie. I
figure if I have a passenger that's their job while barrelling down
the road. I wouldn't dream of trying to use a map app on a phone
while in motion.

Now I routinely plot out routes before I leave the house on the PC
before I leave the house ....

On 11/21/2022 9:35 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 10:19:29 -0500, Nyssa <Nyssa@LogicalInsight.net>
> wrote:
>
>> suzeeq wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/20/2022 10:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
>>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas
>>>>>> Slough which has Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact
>>>>>> - to the south and the Royal Botanical Gardens on the
>>>>>> south side of Burlington which I assume is still there
>>>>>> - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
>>>>>> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway
>>>>>> 427 which is kind of a Canadian Interstate highway type
>>>>>> road.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one
>>>>>> area I do know :)
>>>>>
>>>>> If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake
>>>>> Ontario is further west than the eastern tip of Lake
>>>>> Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at the western tip of
>>>>> Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
>>>>> along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the
>>>>> Niagara River which is very close to running exactly due
>>>>> south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON, which is at the
>>>>> northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
>>>>> southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into
>>>>> the eastern tip of Lake Erie.
>>>>
>>>> I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse than
>>>> 35 years ago when I last drove it :)
>>>>
>>>> Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to
>>>> Buffalo though obviously I know where it is.
>>>>
>>>> No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the norm
>>>> and the Internet hadn't yet entirely moved outside
>>>> academia.
>>>
>>> I still refer to road atlases for looking at highways,
>>> city locations and maps. Google maps is good for street to
>>> street references, but lousy at telling you where you are
>>> in the country, any country compared to other cities.
>>>>
>> Ditto! I want to see where places are in relation to
>> each other and also places of interest, terrain, rivers,
>> and the like. I simply can't get the right feel for it
>> unless I use a paper map or atlas.
>>
>> I still ask people I know who are traveling out of state
>> to pick up a state map for me (usually freebies from state
>> tourist welcome centers) or even those one-page city maps
>>from car rental places.
>>
>> They come in handy when I'm reading a book too that is
>> set in an area I don't know well so I can get familiar
>> with towns and roads that might be mentioned.
>>
>> Nyssa, who thinks map reading is becoming a lost art
>> among the younger generations just like cursive writing
>> and reading an analog clock
>
> Those I keep in my car since I'm a strident non-cellular junkie. I
> figure if I have a passenger that's their job while barrelling down
> the road. I wouldn't dream of trying to use a map app on a phone
> while in motion.

You can have the phone read it to you, it uses GPS to know where you are
on the route you planned out, and will let you know that a turn or
offramp is coming up.
>
> Now I routinely plot out routes before I leave the house on the PC
> before I leave the house ....
>

On Nov 21, 2022 at 7:19:29 AM PST, "Nyssa" <Nyssa@LogicalInsight.net> wrote:

> suzeeq wrote:
>
>> On 11/20/2022 10:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas
>>>>> Slough which has Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact
>>>>> - to the south and the Royal Botanical Gardens on the
>>>>> south side of Burlington which I assume is still there
>>>>> - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
>>>>> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway
>>>>> 427 which is kind of a Canadian Interstate highway type
>>>>> road.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one
>>>>> area I do know :)
>>>>
>>>> If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake
>>>> Ontario is further west than the eastern tip of Lake
>>>> Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at the western tip of
>>>> Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
>>>> along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the
>>>> Niagara River which is very close to running exactly due
>>>> south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON, which is at the
>>>> northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
>>>> southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into
>>>> the eastern tip of Lake Erie.
>>>
>>> I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse than
>>> 35 years ago when I last drove it :)
>>>
>>> Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to
>>> Buffalo though obviously I know where it is.
>>>
>>> No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the norm
>>> and the Internet hadn't yet entirely moved outside
>>> academia.
>>
>> I still refer to road atlases for looking at highways,
>> city locations and maps. Google maps is good for street to
>> street references, but lousy at telling you where you are
>> in the country, any country compared to other cities.
>>>
> Ditto! I want to see where places are in relation to
> each other and also places of interest, terrain, rivers,
> and the like. I simply can't get the right feel for it
> unless I use a paper map or atlas.
>
> I still ask people I know who are traveling out of state
> to pick up a state map for me (usually freebies from state
> tourist welcome centers) or even those one-page city maps
> from car rental places.
>
> They come in handy when I'm reading a book too that is
> set in an area I don't know well so I can get familiar
> with towns and roads that might be mentioned.
>
> Nyssa, who thinks map reading is becoming a lost art
> among the younger generations just like cursive writing
> and reading an analog clock

After I graduated law school, I took a night shift job at a flood zone
certification company to make money and leave my days free to look for proper
legal work.

It was a carto-phile's dream. The job was nothing but maps of every kind and
flavor. Banks would send in addresses for properties they were mortgaging and
we had to determine if the property was in a federally designated flood zone
for purposes of determining if flood insurance would be required on the
mortgage.

We had everything from computerized Google map-like software to ancient county
plat maps from the 1800s, covering the entire country. The hardest state to do
that kind of work in is Hawaii, FYI. Both the FEMA flood maps and the local
government maps lacked any kind of reasonable detail and were horribly
inaccurate. And there's no Section-Township-Range in Hawaii, either, which
makes properties easy to locate in states that use that system.

suzeeq <suzee@imbris.com> wrote:
>On 11/21/2022 9:35 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 10:19:29 -0500, Nyssa <Nyssa@LogicalInsight.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> suzeeq wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/20/2022 10:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
>>>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas
>>>>>>> Slough which has Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact
>>>>>>> - to the south and the Royal Botanical Gardens on the
>>>>>>> south side of Burlington which I assume is still there
>>>>>>> - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
>>>>>>> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway
>>>>>>> 427 which is kind of a Canadian Interstate highway type
>>>>>>> road.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one
>>>>>>> area I do know :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake
>>>>>> Ontario is further west than the eastern tip of Lake
>>>>>> Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at the western tip of
>>>>>> Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
>>>>>> along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the
>>>>>> Niagara River which is very close to running exactly due
>>>>>> south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON, which is at the
>>>>>> northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
>>>>>> southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into
>>>>>> the eastern tip of Lake Erie.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse than
>>>>> 35 years ago when I last drove it :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to
>>>>> Buffalo though obviously I know where it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the norm
>>>>> and the Internet hadn't yet entirely moved outside
>>>>> academia.
>>>>
>>>> I still refer to road atlases for looking at highways,
>>>> city locations and maps. Google maps is good for street to
>>>> street references, but lousy at telling you where you are
>>>> in the country, any country compared to other cities.
>>>>>
>>> Ditto! I want to see where places are in relation to
>>> each other and also places of interest, terrain, rivers,
>>> and the like. I simply can't get the right feel for it
>>> unless I use a paper map or atlas.
>>>
>>> I still ask people I know who are traveling out of state
>>> to pick up a state map for me (usually freebies from state
>>> tourist welcome centers) or even those one-page city maps
>>>from car rental places.
>>>
>>> They come in handy when I'm reading a book too that is
>>> set in an area I don't know well so I can get familiar
>>> with towns and roads that might be mentioned.
>>>
>>> Nyssa, who thinks map reading is becoming a lost art
>>> among the younger generations just like cursive writing
>>> and reading an analog clock
>>
>> Those I keep in my car since I'm a strident non-cellular junkie. I
>> figure if I have a passenger that's their job while barrelling down
>> the road. I wouldn't dream of trying to use a map app on a phone
>> while in motion.
>
>You can have the phone read it to you, it uses GPS to know where you are
>on the route you planned out, and will let you know that a turn or
>offramp is coming up.

That's all we need, another back seat driver.

>> Now I routinely plot out routes before I leave the house on the PC
>> before I leave the house ....

On 11/21/2022 10:41 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> suzeeq <suzee@imbris.com> wrote:
>> On 11/21/2022 9:35 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 10:19:29 -0500, Nyssa <Nyssa@LogicalInsight.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> suzeeq wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/20/2022 10:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
>>>>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas
>>>>>>>> Slough which has Hamilton - the McMaster campus in fact
>>>>>>>> - to the south and the Royal Botanical Gardens on the
>>>>>>>> south side of Burlington which I assume is still there
>>>>>>>> - we did our wedding pictures there) There's a bridge
>>>>>>>> between Burlington and east Hamilton part of highway
>>>>>>>> 427 which is kind of a Canadian Interstate highway type
>>>>>>>> road.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one
>>>>>>>> area I do know :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake
>>>>>>> Ontario is further west than the eastern tip of Lake
>>>>>>> Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at the western tip of
>>>>>>> Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes east
>>>>>>> along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach the
>>>>>>> Niagara River which is very close to running exactly due
>>>>>>> south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON, which is at the
>>>>>>> northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo is at the
>>>>>>> southern end of the Niagara River where it flows into
>>>>>>> the eastern tip of Lake Erie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse than
>>>>>> 35 years ago when I last drove it :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to
>>>>>> Buffalo though obviously I know where it is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the norm
>>>>>> and the Internet hadn't yet entirely moved outside
>>>>>> academia.
>>>>>
>>>>> I still refer to road atlases for looking at highways,
>>>>> city locations and maps. Google maps is good for street to
>>>>> street references, but lousy at telling you where you are
>>>>> in the country, any country compared to other cities.
>>>>>>
>>>> Ditto! I want to see where places are in relation to
>>>> each other and also places of interest, terrain, rivers,
>>>> and the like. I simply can't get the right feel for it
>>>> unless I use a paper map or atlas.
>>>>
>>>> I still ask people I know who are traveling out of state
>>>> to pick up a state map for me (usually freebies from state
>>>> tourist welcome centers) or even those one-page city maps
>>> >from car rental places.
>>>>
>>>> They come in handy when I'm reading a book too that is
>>>> set in an area I don't know well so I can get familiar
>>>> with towns and roads that might be mentioned.
>>>>
>>>> Nyssa, who thinks map reading is becoming a lost art
>>>> among the younger generations just like cursive writing
>>>> and reading an analog clock
>>>
>>> Those I keep in my car since I'm a strident non-cellular junkie. I
>>> figure if I have a passenger that's their job while barrelling down
>>> the road. I wouldn't dream of trying to use a map app on a phone
>>> while in motion.
>>
>> You can have the phone read it to you, it uses GPS to know where you are
>> on the route you planned out, and will let you know that a turn or
>> offramp is coming up.
>
> That's all we need, another back seat driver.

Yeah, drives me nuts when my son uses it, yet he doesn't like me giving
him directions.

>
>>> Now I routinely plot out routes before I leave the house on the PC
>>> before I leave the house ....

suzeeq wrote:

> On 11/21/2022 9:35 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 10:19:29 -0500, Nyssa
>> <Nyssa@LogicalInsight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> suzeeq wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/20/2022 10:38 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 06:17:30 -0500, Rhino
>>>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> (The extreme western corner of Lake Ontario is Deas
>>>>>>> Slough which has Hamilton - the McMaster campus in
>>>>>>> fact - to the south and the Royal Botanical Gardens
>>>>>>> on the south side of Burlington which I assume is
>>>>>>> still there - we did our wedding pictures there)
>>>>>>> There's a bridge between Burlington and east
>>>>>>> Hamilton part of highway 427 which is kind of a
>>>>>>> Canadian Interstate highway type road.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't pretend to know all geography but that's one
>>>>>>> area I do know :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you look at Google Maps, the western tip of Lake
>>>>>> Ontario is further west than the eastern tip of Lake
>>>>>> Erie. Hamilton and Burlington are at the western tip
>>>>>> of Lake Ontario. You need to drive about 90 minutes
>>>>>> east along the south shore of Lake Ontario to reach
>>>>>> the Niagara River which is very close to running
>>>>>> exactly due south of Niagara-on-the-Lake ON, which is
>>>>>> at the northernmost end of the Niagara River. Buffalo
>>>>>> is at the southern end of the Niagara River where it
>>>>>> flows into the eastern tip of Lake Erie.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm quite prepared to believe traffic is much worse
>>>>> than 35 years ago when I last drove it :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Been ti Niagara Falls several times, never been to
>>>>> Buffalo though obviously I know where it is.
>>>>>
>>>>> No Google maps in those days - bbses were still the
>>>>> norm and the Internet hadn't yet entirely moved
>>>>> outside academia.
>>>>
>>>> I still refer to road atlases for looking at highways,
>>>> city locations and maps. Google maps is good for street
>>>> to street references, but lousy at telling you where
>>>> you are in the country, any country compared to other
>>>> cities.
>>>>>
>>> Ditto! I want to see where places are in relation to
>>> each other and also places of interest, terrain, rivers,
>>> and the like. I simply can't get the right feel for it
>>> unless I use a paper map or atlas.
>>>
>>> I still ask people I know who are traveling out of state
>>> to pick up a state map for me (usually freebies from
>>> state tourist welcome centers) or even those one-page
>>> city maps
>>>from car rental places.
>>>
>>> They come in handy when I'm reading a book too that is
>>> set in an area I don't know well so I can get familiar
>>> with towns and roads that might be mentioned.
>>>
>>> Nyssa, who thinks map reading is becoming a lost art
>>> among the younger generations just like cursive writing
>>> and reading an analog clock
>>
>> Those I keep in my car since I'm a strident non-cellular
>> junkie. I figure if I have a passenger that's their job
>> while barrelling down
>> the road. I wouldn't dream of trying to use a map app on
>> a phone while in motion.
>
> You can have the phone read it to you, it uses GPS to know
> where you are on the route you planned out, and will let
> you know that a turn or offramp is coming up.
>>
>> Now I routinely plot out routes before I leave the house
>> on the PC before I leave the house ....
>>
>
Except that HG doesn't have a cell phone, much less one
that will talk him through a route (aka a smartphone).

I don't have a cell phone either, but check the paper
map before I head out if I'm going to someplace out of
my usual flight path. If I need to, I'll pull over into
a parking lot or the side of the road to double check
if I have any doubt about which way to turn or a route
number.

OTOH last month I went to the Big City and was trying
to find a couple of stores on familiar roads, but the
traffic was just heavy enough that I couldn't risk
rubber-necking to check signage or numbers of stores
along the way. Next try, I'll see if I can track down
some landmarks *near* the places I was looking for
and/or reverse my route so I'll be on the proper
side of the street for the numbers to be a right turn
and can stick to the slower lane.

Nyssa, who wonders what all these people who rely on
smartphones, GPS, etc. think we did before they were
invented and generally available