On 2023-01-25 9:16 p.m., RichA wrote:
> A very familiar line.
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/entertainment/lance-kerwin-death/index.html
>

You know that? I'm coming up on the 20th anniversary of my mother's
death. Do you know what I didn't do when I wrote her obituary? I didn't
give the cause of death. You know why? I'll be damned if I know what
killed her. She had more health problems and took more medication than
you could shake a stick at. She lay down to take a nap and never got up
again and I'll never have more than speculation about precisely what
killed her. Sometimes you never really know what kills someone. Even
when you pony up for a private autopsy, getting the results back takes
time so you won't have it when you initially make the announcement.

On 1/27/23 3:04 AM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2023-01-25 9:16 p.m., RichA wrote:
>> A very familiar line.
>>
>> https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/entertainment/lance-kerwin-death/index.html
>>
>
> You know that?  I'm coming up on the 20th anniversary of my mother's
> death. Do you know what I didn't do when I wrote her obituary?  I didn't
> give the cause of death.  You know why?  I'll be damned if I know what
> killed her.  She had more health problems and took more medication than
> you could shake a stick at.  She lay down to take a nap and never got up
> again and I'll never have more than speculation about precisely what
> killed her. Sometimes you never really know what kills someone.  Even
> when you pony up for a private autopsy, getting the results back takes
> time so you won't have it when you initially make the announcement.

That doesn't address the root issue: knowing the cause of death aids
Eunuch "Rich" in his physical and mental masturbation. Guess what,
Eunuch "Rich?" I don't care how you die just that you're dead. Hurry
the fuck up already.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:04:20 -0700, David Johnston
<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2023-01-25 9:16 p.m., RichA wrote:
>> A very familiar line.
>>
>> https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/entertainment/lance-kerwin-death/index.html
>>
>
>You know that? I'm coming up on the 20th anniversary of my mother's
>death. Do you know what I didn't do when I wrote her obituary? I didn't
>give the cause of death. You know why? I'll be damned if I know what
>killed her. She had more health problems and took more medication than
>you could shake a stick at. She lay down to take a nap and never got up
>again and I'll never have more than speculation about precisely what
>killed her. Sometimes you never really know what kills someone. Even
>when you pony up for a private autopsy, getting the results back takes
>time so you won't have it when you initially make the announcement.

Very true - my mother died when run over by a 30' motor home and her
obit didn't give her cause of death either though I'm pretty sure
nearly everybody at the funeral knew what it was and who the driver of
the death vehicle was.

None of that was in the obit though.

In article <0h88thdmah9jaiv18pcvn2niunhekd0rbs@4ax.com>, The Horny Goat
<lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:04:20 -0700, David Johnston
> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On 2023-01-25 9:16 p.m., RichA wrote:
> >> A very familiar line.
> >>
> >> https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/entertainment/lance-kerwin-death/index.html
> >>
> >
> >You know that? I'm coming up on the 20th anniversary of my mother's
> >death. Do you know what I didn't do when I wrote her obituary? I didn't
> >give the cause of death. You know why? I'll be damned if I know what
> >killed her. She had more health problems and took more medication than
> >you could shake a stick at. She lay down to take a nap and never got up
> >again and I'll never have more than speculation about precisely what
> >killed her. Sometimes you never really know what kills someone. Even
> >when you pony up for a private autopsy, getting the results back takes
> >time so you won't have it when you initially make the announcement.
>
> Very true - my mother died when run over by a 30' motor home and her
> obit didn't give her cause of death either though I'm pretty sure
> nearly everybody at the funeral knew what it was and who the driver of
> the death vehicle was.
>
> None of that was in the obit though.

I don't think anyone's asking for 24/7 news coverage here, but of
course survivors are free to include (or not) whatever details they
like about a cause of death.

You're free not to publish an obit at all, of course. My parents no
longer lived where we'd grown up. We were gouged about $400 by the
funeral home for a boilerplate obit for my father in some local paper
no one ever read. (My kid sister was in charge of that one, and she
let this detail get past her.) We didn't publish an obit for my mother
when she died a couple of years later.

A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> In article <0h88thdmah9jaiv18pcvn2niunhekd0rbs@4ax.com>, The Horny Goat
> <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:04:20 -0700, David Johnston
>> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-01-25 9:16 p.m., RichA wrote:
>>>> A very familiar line.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/entertainment/lance-kerwin-death/index.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> You know that? I'm coming up on the 20th anniversary of my mother's
>>> death. Do you know what I didn't do when I wrote her obituary? I didn't
>>> give the cause of death. You know why? I'll be damned if I know what
>>> killed her. She had more health problems and took more medication than
>>> you could shake a stick at. She lay down to take a nap and never got up
>>> again and I'll never have more than speculation about precisely what
>>> killed her. Sometimes you never really know what kills someone. Even
>>> when you pony up for a private autopsy, getting the results back takes
>>> time so you won't have it when you initially make the announcement.
>>
>> Very true - my mother died when run over by a 30' motor home and her
>> obit didn't give her cause of death either though I'm pretty sure
>> nearly everybody at the funeral knew what it was and who the driver of
>> the death vehicle was.
>>
>> None of that was in the obit though.
>
>
> I don't think anyone's asking for 24/7 news coverage here, but of
> course survivors are free to include (or not) whatever details they
> like about a cause of death.
>
> You're free not to publish an obit at all, of course. My parents no
> longer lived where we'd grown up. We were gouged about $400 by the
> funeral home for a boilerplate obit for my father in some local paper
> no one ever read. (My kid sister was in charge of that one, and she
> let this detail get past her.) We didn't publish an obit for my mother
> when she died a couple of years later.
>

It might not have been the funeral home gouging you. Somewhere along the
line the newspapers decided this was a really good way to make money. We
didn’t put dad‘s obit in the San Francisco chronicle at all because they
wanted something like $6000 since he was out of town. The local fish wrap
wasn’t that bad but it was still way more than you paid. And a couple years
later you have to pay it again if you want to read it. Obits move behind a
Paywall after a short time.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

In article
<115400130.696564344.370673.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com>,
anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:

> A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> > In article <0h88thdmah9jaiv18pcvn2niunhekd0rbs@4ax.com>, The Horny Goat
> > <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:04:20 -0700, David Johnston
> >> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2023-01-25 9:16 p.m., RichA wrote:
> >>>> A very familiar line.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/entertainment/lance-kerwin-death/index.htm
> >>>> l
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> You know that? I'm coming up on the 20th anniversary of my mother's
> >>> death. Do you know what I didn't do when I wrote her obituary? I didn't
> >>> give the cause of death. You know why? I'll be damned if I know what
> >>> killed her. She had more health problems and took more medication than
> >>> you could shake a stick at. She lay down to take a nap and never got up
> >>> again and I'll never have more than speculation about precisely what
> >>> killed her. Sometimes you never really know what kills someone. Even
> >>> when you pony up for a private autopsy, getting the results back takes
> >>> time so you won't have it when you initially make the announcement.
> >>
> >> Very true - my mother died when run over by a 30' motor home and her
> >> obit didn't give her cause of death either though I'm pretty sure
> >> nearly everybody at the funeral knew what it was and who the driver of
> >> the death vehicle was.
> >>
> >> None of that was in the obit though.
> >
> >
> > I don't think anyone's asking for 24/7 news coverage here, but of
> > course survivors are free to include (or not) whatever details they
> > like about a cause of death.
> >
> > You're free not to publish an obit at all, of course. My parents no
> > longer lived where we'd grown up. We were gouged about $400 by the
> > funeral home for a boilerplate obit for my father in some local paper
> > no one ever read. (My kid sister was in charge of that one, and she
> > let this detail get past her.) We didn't publish an obit for my mother
> > when she died a couple of years later.
> >
>
> It might not have been the funeral home gouging you. Somewhere along the
> line the newspapers decided this was a really good way to make money. We
> didn¹t put dadŒs obit in the San Francisco chronicle at all because they
> wanted something like $6000 since he was out of town. The local fish wrap
> wasn¹t that bad but it was still way more than you paid. And a couple years
> later you have to pay it again if you want to read it. Obits move behind a
> Paywall after a short time.

I'm not excusing the newspaper, but the funeral home went ahead,
supplied a boilerplate obit to the paper, and charged us a hefty fee
for it. There was no reason for us to put an obit in that paper, as we
weren't locals. I guess the paper and the fun home had a deal.

BTW it was a very short obit, since there weren't any details. A
couple of column inches, maybe. Just names. We really could have done
without it.

A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
> In article
> <115400130.696564344.370673.anim8rfsk-cox.net@news.easynews.com>,
> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:
>>> In article <0h88thdmah9jaiv18pcvn2niunhekd0rbs@4ax.com>, The Horny Goat
>>> <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:04:20 -0700, David Johnston
>>>> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-01-25 9:16 p.m., RichA wrote:
>>>>>> A very familiar line.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/entertainment/lance-kerwin-death/index.htm
>>>>>> l
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You know that? I'm coming up on the 20th anniversary of my mother's
>>>>> death. Do you know what I didn't do when I wrote her obituary? I didn't
>>>>> give the cause of death. You know why? I'll be damned if I know what
>>>>> killed her. She had more health problems and took more medication than
>>>>> you could shake a stick at. She lay down to take a nap and never got up
>>>>> again and I'll never have more than speculation about precisely what
>>>>> killed her. Sometimes you never really know what kills someone. Even
>>>>> when you pony up for a private autopsy, getting the results back takes
>>>>> time so you won't have it when you initially make the announcement.
>>>>
>>>> Very true - my mother died when run over by a 30' motor home and her
>>>> obit didn't give her cause of death either though I'm pretty sure
>>>> nearly everybody at the funeral knew what it was and who the driver of
>>>> the death vehicle was.
>>>>
>>>> None of that was in the obit though.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think anyone's asking for 24/7 news coverage here, but of
>>> course survivors are free to include (or not) whatever details they
>>> like about a cause of death.
>>>
>>> You're free not to publish an obit at all, of course. My parents no
>>> longer lived where we'd grown up. We were gouged about $400 by the
>>> funeral home for a boilerplate obit for my father in some local paper
>>> no one ever read. (My kid sister was in charge of that one, and she
>>> let this detail get past her.) We didn't publish an obit for my mother
>>> when she died a couple of years later.
>>>
>>
>> It might not have been the funeral home gouging you. Somewhere along the
>> line the newspapers decided this was a really good way to make money. We
>> didn¹t put dadŒs obit in the San Francisco chronicle at all because they
>> wanted something like $6000 since he was out of town. The local fish wrap
>> wasn¹t that bad but it was still way more than you paid. And a couple years
>> later you have to pay it again if you want to read it. Obits move behind a
>> Paywall after a short time.
>
>
> I'm not excusing the newspaper, but the funeral home went ahead,
> supplied a boilerplate obit to the paper, and charged us a hefty fee
> for it. There was no reason for us to put an obit in that paper, as we
> weren't locals. I guess the paper and the fun home had a deal.
>
> BTW it was a very short obit, since there weren't any details. A
> couple of column inches, maybe. Just names. We really could have done
> without it.
>

Oh, OK, well that really sucks then.

Our funeral home gave us a checklist of stuff which included the obits and
we skipped it. They also had a lovely selection of artificial gem jewelry
made from the remains that I decided I didn’t really need.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023 14:56:51 -0500, A Friend <nope@noway.com> wrote:

>I don't think anyone's asking for 24/7 news coverage here, but of
>course survivors are free to include (or not) whatever details they
>like about a cause of death.
>
>You're free not to publish an obit at all, of course. My parents no
>longer lived where we'd grown up. We were gouged about $400 by the
>funeral home for a boilerplate obit for my father in some local paper
>no one ever read. (My kid sister was in charge of that one, and she
>let this detail get past her.) We didn't publish an obit for my mother
>when she died a couple of years later.

We didn't do one for my wife (March 2022) mostly for my children's
sake (who seldom ever READ the paper but figured they had friends who
did and...) though in my opinion obits are like eulogies - you may
have thought the departed was an SOB but you always do it to honor the
departed and make their survivors proud.

Only an utter cad would give a eulogy or obit that "took the low road"
since a disrespectful obit or eulogy dishonors the survivors and the
departed isn't there to give their opinion.

This is why I've done all the eulogies in my family for the last 30
years except my father's and that was due to the fact that my sister
in law wrongly thought I'd tell everybody what I >REALLY< thought of
him.

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:

> We didn't do [an obit] for my wife (March 2022) mostly for my
> children's sake (who seldom ever READ the paper but figured they had
> friends who did and...) though in my opinion obits are like eulogies -
> you may have thought the departed was an SOB but you always do it to
> honor the departed and make their survivors proud.

I did a long obit for my mother, and despite the price ($500), I treated
it as a one-time expense to make the survivors feel included and for the
potential benefit of any future genealogists in the family, because
despite the decline of print newspapers, they're still treated as the
medium of record for such things. I did not include the precise cause
of death. I just said "died suddenly." That seems to be the pattern,
to say, "suddedly," or else "after a long illness."

When my mom started shopping for a cremation service, I asked her if she
wanted to read what I would write for her obit. She said sure, so it
ended up being almost exactly as she had approved.

-Micky

In article <ts76af$hon$1@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
<MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:

> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>
> > We didn't do [an obit] for my wife (March 2022) mostly for my
> > children's sake (who seldom ever READ the paper but figured they had
> > friends who did and...) though in my opinion obits are like eulogies -
> > you may have thought the departed was an SOB but you always do it to
> > honor the departed and make their survivors proud.
>
> I did a long obit for my mother, and despite the price ($500), I treated
> it as a one-time expense to make the survivors feel included and for the
> potential benefit of any future genealogists in the family, because
> despite the decline of print newspapers, they're still treated as the
> medium of record for such things. I did not include the precise cause
> of death. I just said "died suddenly." That seems to be the pattern,
> to say, "suddedly," or else "after a long illness."
>
> When my mom started shopping for a cremation service, I asked her if she
> wanted to read what I would write for her obit. She said sure, so it
> ended up being almost exactly as she had approved.
>
> -Micky

Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed, die
suddenly.

We took obits at the community weekly I ran decades ago, and there were
so few that I wouldn't charge for them. I quickly found out that this
pissed off the local funeral homes because they couldn't surcharge the
grieving family. I didn't really care about surcharges if the fun home
had written the obit, even if it was just boilerplate stuff, but
passing along the family-written obit and trying to surcharge them for
it -- just no. I didn't like it and wouldn't allow it. We ran two or
three obits every week. BTW I always proofed them carefully because
you just didn't want to typo someone's name in an obit. Any errors
made were in the copy, but people would complain anyway because we were
somehow supposed to know that the surviving uncle's name was Fred and
not Frank.

On 2/10/2023 9:01 PM, A Friend wrote:
>
>
> Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
> This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed, die
> suddenly.

Like my exhusband. He went upstairs to take a nap because he thought he
was getting the flu, and died in his sleep. They put it down as a heart
attack. Though it was probably brought on by his alcoholism.

> We took obits at the community weekly I ran decades ago, and there were
> so few that I wouldn't charge for them. I quickly found out that this
> pissed off the local funeral homes because they couldn't surcharge the
> grieving family. I didn't really care about surcharges if the fun home
> had written the obit, even if it was just boilerplate stuff, but
> passing along the family-written obit and trying to surcharge them for
> it -- just no. I didn't like it and wouldn't allow it. We ran two or
> three obits every week. BTW I always proofed them carefully because
> you just didn't want to typo someone's name in an obit. Any errors
> made were in the copy, but people would complain anyway because we were
> somehow supposed to know that the surviving uncle's name was Fred and
> not Frank.
>

A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:

> Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
> This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed, die
> suddenly.

Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's not
everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly" fits them as
well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and heart attacks.

> We took obits at the community weekly I ran decades ago, and there
> were so few that I wouldn't charge for them. I quickly found out that
> this pissed off the local funeral homes because they couldn't
> surcharge the grieving family. I didn't really care about surcharges
> if the fun home had written the obit, even if it was just boilerplate
> stuff, but passing along the family-written obit and trying to
> surcharge them for it -- just no. I didn't like it and wouldn't allow
> it. We ran two or three obits every week.

My mom said she didn't want a service from a funeral home, so she saved
us a couple thousand dollars. We just reserved a clubhouse and had a
celebration of life with a light lunch and a DVD we had made of pictures
of her.

> BTW I always proofed them carefully because you just didn't want to
> typo someone's name in an obit. Any errors made were in the copy, but
> people would complain anyway because we were somehow supposed to know
> that the surviving uncle's name was Fred and not Frank.

My brother and I poured over our mom's obit looking for typos, and I
called around to double check. It's possible to hear someone's name
aloud for years without realizing that it has a variant spelling (e.g.,
someone's wife is Cyndi, not Cindy, or despite the fact that his parents
call him Art, he prefers Arthur). It's a cliche, but it's true that
people are miffed when you get their name wrong.

-Micky

In article <tt9g7p$lfu$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
<MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:

> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>
> > Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
> > This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed, die
> > suddenly.
>
> Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's not
> everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly" fits them as
> well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and heart attacks.

This is no "eh" to grieving people whose loved one did indeed die
suddenly, but who can't say it that way because everyone will presume
from the phrasing that the death was a suicide. I remember a nice lady
whose husband dropped dead at a bus stop. The fun home had sent along
the usual "died suddenly." I advised the widow to say instead that
he'd died on his way to work, which not only evaded the problem but
showed that he'd been active right up to his last minute. She liked
that a lot.

A Friend wrote:
>Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>>A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:

>>>Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
>>>This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed, die
>>>suddenly.

>>Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's not
>>everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly" fits them as
>>well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and heart attacks.

>This is no "eh" to grieving people whose loved one did indeed die
>suddenly, but who can't say it that way because everyone will presume
>from the phrasing that the death was a suicide. I remember a nice lady
>whose husband dropped dead at a bus stop. The fun home had sent along
>the usual "died suddenly." I advised the widow to say instead that
>he'd died on his way to work, which not only evaded the problem but
>showed that he'd been active right up to his last minute. She liked
>that a lot.

Best of luck on trying to get Micky to empathize. This is a need to
write the news to convey truth and meaning in proper context, and that's
the best way to respect the feelings of family and friends.

Would a decent reporter or news writer say "John Smith died during
commission of a robbery" without clarifying if he were one of the
perpetrators or the storekeeper or clerk or just an innocent bystander?
Obviously we've seen "6 people killed in mass shooting incident" but it
turns out that the perpetrator murdered 5 people, traumatically injured
12 others, then committed suicide as he was about to be caught. Or he
was killed by law enforcement or another person on the scene trying to
protect others.

Making a truthful statement in proper context is critical to conveying
meaning and the information the reader needs to know.

And yeah, if someone died of a drug overdose or there's strong evidence
that he committed suicide, say it outright.

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 04:59:37 +0000 (UTC),
MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply (Micky DuPree) wrote:

>A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>
>> Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
>> This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed, die
>> suddenly.
>
>Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's not
>everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly" fits them as
>well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and heart attacks.

Yup - the latter was what did in my wife last March though without my
permission they did a post-mortem COVID test which came positive and
thus she's officially a COVID death though my MD says her symptoms
were 100% cardiac and that at most it could be said that the virus
weakened her heart's defences.

>My mom said she didn't want a service from a funeral home, so she saved
>us a couple thousand dollars. We just reserved a clubhouse and had a
>celebration of life with a light lunch and a DVD we had made of pictures
>of her.

Wish it was only a couple of thousand :) We paid $1200-1300 for the
stone alone. Nothing really special (except a blank space for me
eventually)

>My brother and I poured over our mom's obit looking for typos, and I
>called around to double check. It's possible to hear someone's name
>aloud for years without realizing that it has a variant spelling (e.g.,
>someone's wife is Cyndi, not Cindy, or despite the fact that his parents
>call him Art, he prefers Arthur). It's a cliche, but it's true that
>people are miffed when you get their name wrong.

My school days were a hell in that department because to avoid
confusion with my father I go by my middle name (a shortened form)
which is unfamiliar enough some people can't get it right. Then
there's my doctor and the tax man who insist on using my first name
even though back in my college days the tax man sent me my father's
tax refund in error. That took several months to resolve.

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 15:39:48 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>A Friend wrote:
>>Micky DuPree <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>>>A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>
>>>>Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
>>>>This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed, die
>>>>suddenly.
>
>>>Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's not
>>>everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly" fits them as
>>>well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and heart attacks.
>
>>This is no "eh" to grieving people whose loved one did indeed die
>>suddenly, but who can't say it that way because everyone will presume
>>from the phrasing that the death was a suicide. I remember a nice lady
>>whose husband dropped dead at a bus stop. The fun home had sent along
>>the usual "died suddenly." I advised the widow to say instead that
>>he'd died on his way to work, which not only evaded the problem but
>>showed that he'd been active right up to his last minute. She liked
>>that a lot.
>
>Best of luck on trying to get Micky to empathize. This is a need to
>write the news to convey truth and meaning in proper context, and that's
>the best way to respect the feelings of family and friends.
>
>Would a decent reporter or news writer say "John Smith died during
>commission of a robbery" without clarifying if he were one of the
>perpetrators or the storekeeper or clerk or just an innocent bystander?
>Obviously we've seen "6 people killed in mass shooting incident" but it
>turns out that the perpetrator murdered 5 people, traumatically injured
>12 others, then committed suicide as he was about to be caught. Or he
>was killed by law enforcement or another person on the scene trying to
>protect others.
>
>Making a truthful statement in proper context is critical to conveying
>meaning and the information the reader needs to know.
>
>And yeah, if someone died of a drug overdose or there's strong evidence
>that he committed suicide, say it outright.

Having been there done that within the past year, all I have to say is
"Well said Adam!"

A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:

> In article <tt9g7p$lfu$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
> <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:

>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>>> Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
>>> This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed, die
>>> suddenly.
>>
>> Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's not
>> everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly" fits them
>> as well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and heart attacks.
>
> This is no "eh" to grieving people whose loved one did indeed die
> suddenly, but who can't say it that way because everyone will presume
> from the phrasing that the death was a suicide.

Your post was the first I've heard that anyone anywhere would make such
an assumption. I'm not saying that no one anywhere does so, but it's
not nearly as routine an assumption as you're making it out to be. A
lot of obits don't include any background on the death itself at all,
which is probably the best thing to advise in the case of suicides
either way, since among those of your acquaintance, evidently saying
"died suddenly" will out them as suicides anyway, which doesn't
accomplish the desired goal of hiding from the social stigma.

-Micky

In article <tubor2$2t9$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
<MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:

> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>
> > In article <tt9g7p$lfu$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
> > <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>
> >> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>
> >>> Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
> >>> This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed, die
> >>> suddenly.
> >>
> >> Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's not
> >> everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly" fits them
> >> as well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and heart attacks.
> >
> > This is no "eh" to grieving people whose loved one did indeed die
> > suddenly, but who can't say it that way because everyone will presume
> > from the phrasing that the death was a suicide.
>
> Your post was the first I've heard that anyone anywhere would make such
> an assumption. I'm not saying that no one anywhere does so, but it's
> not nearly as routine an assumption as you're making it out to be. A
> lot of obits don't include any background on the death itself at all,
> which is probably the best thing to advise in the case of suicides
> either way, since among those of your acquaintance, evidently saying
> "died suddenly" will out them as suicides anyway, which doesn't
> accomplish the desired goal of hiding from the social stigma.

"Those of my acquaintance" aside, I'm speaking as someone who edited
big and small newspapers over the course of a long career. Based on
that, I strongly suggest that a family not use the phrase "died
suddenly," as many people see this as code for suicide. There are all
sorts of alternatives -- brief illness, while jogging, at work, in a
car accident, whatever. People can print as few details as they like,
of course, but they shouldn't be surprised when stupid gossips start
spreading misinformation.

On 3/9/2023 6:43 AM, A Friend wrote:
> In article <tubor2$2t9$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
> <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>
>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>>
>>> In article <tt9g7p$lfu$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
>>> <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>>
>>>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
>>>>> This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed, die
>>>>> suddenly.
>>>>
>>>> Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's not
>>>> everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly" fits them
>>>> as well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and heart attacks.
>>>
>>> This is no "eh" to grieving people whose loved one did indeed die
>>> suddenly, but who can't say it that way because everyone will presume
>>> from the phrasing that the death was a suicide.
>>
>> Your post was the first I've heard that anyone anywhere would make such
>> an assumption. I'm not saying that no one anywhere does so, but it's
>> not nearly as routine an assumption as you're making it out to be. A
>> lot of obits don't include any background on the death itself at all,
>> which is probably the best thing to advise in the case of suicides
>> either way, since among those of your acquaintance, evidently saying
>> "died suddenly" will out them as suicides anyway, which doesn't
>> accomplish the desired goal of hiding from the social stigma.
>
>
> "Those of my acquaintance" aside, I'm speaking as someone who edited
> big and small newspapers over the course of a long career. Based on
> that, I strongly suggest that a family not use the phrase "died
> suddenly," as many people see this as code for suicide. There are all
> sorts of alternatives -- brief illness, while jogging, at work, in a
> car accident, whatever. People can print as few details as they like,
> of course, but they shouldn't be surprised when stupid gossips start
> spreading misinformation.

"Following a respiratory cessation..."

On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 11:03:24 -0500, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
wrote:

>> "Those of my acquaintance" aside, I'm speaking as someone who edited
>> big and small newspapers over the course of a long career. Based on
>> that, I strongly suggest that a family not use the phrase "died
>> suddenly," as many people see this as code for suicide. There are all
>> sorts of alternatives -- brief illness, while jogging, at work, in a
>> car accident, whatever. People can print as few details as they like,
>> of course, but they shouldn't be surprised when stupid gossips start
>> spreading misinformation.
>
>"Following a respiratory cessation..."
>
What WOULD you suggest in a situation where the cause of death is
uncertain?

Because I know one person who died suddenly at her computer (the
paramedics tried and failed to revive her) and I discussed her
situation with my doctor who quite vehemently denied that it was a
COVID death entirely due to a post-mortem COVID positive test result
(taken without the permission of her next of kin) and solely based on
that alone and no other evidence. The doctor insisted it was almost
certainly cardiac related but couldn't tell specifically based on what
the next of kin told him. He said the most that could be said with
respect to COVID was that it possibly weakened her defences against
heart failure but even that was iffy.

Nevertheless she goes into the official records as yet another COVID
casualty despite strong evidence to the contrary.

One thing for sure - it wasn't a suicide!

In article <lahp0i5hlmp7h4v6tgkc90jj1skpahdi8v@4ax.com>, The Horny Goat
<lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 11:03:24 -0500, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> "Those of my acquaintance" aside, I'm speaking as someone who edited
> >> big and small newspapers over the course of a long career. Based on
> >> that, I strongly suggest that a family not use the phrase "died
> >> suddenly," as many people see this as code for suicide. There are all
> >> sorts of alternatives -- brief illness, while jogging, at work, in a
> >> car accident, whatever. People can print as few details as they like,
> >> of course, but they shouldn't be surprised when stupid gossips start
> >> spreading misinformation.
> >
> >"Following a respiratory cessation..."
> >
> What WOULD you suggest in a situation where the cause of death is
> uncertain?

I've already addressed that. If you can't cite the exact cause of
death, you can mention the circumstances. See above.-

> Because I know one person who died suddenly at her computer (the
> paramedics tried and failed to revive her) and I discussed her
> situation with my doctor who quite vehemently denied that it was a
> COVID death entirely due to a post-mortem COVID positive test result
> (taken without the permission of her next of kin) and solely based on
> that alone and no other evidence. The doctor insisted it was almost
> certainly cardiac related but couldn't tell specifically based on what
> the next of kin told him. He said the most that could be said with
> respect to COVID was that it possibly weakened her defences against
> heart failure but even that was iffy.
>
> Nevertheless she goes into the official records as yet another COVID
> casualty despite strong evidence to the contrary.
>
> One thing for sure - it wasn't a suicide!

Hang the "official records." They don't control the truth, or what you
want to say in an obit about the cause of death.

On 3/11/2023 1:20 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 11:03:24 -0500, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> "Those of my acquaintance" aside, I'm speaking as someone who edited
>>> big and small newspapers over the course of a long career. Based on
>>> that, I strongly suggest that a family not use the phrase "died
>>> suddenly," as many people see this as code for suicide. There are all
>>> sorts of alternatives -- brief illness, while jogging, at work, in a
>>> car accident, whatever. People can print as few details as they like,
>>> of course, but they shouldn't be surprised when stupid gossips start
>>> spreading misinformation.
>>
>> "Following a respiratory cessation..."
>>
> What WOULD you suggest in a situation where the cause of death is
> uncertain?
>
> Because I know one person who died suddenly at her computer (the
> paramedics tried and failed to revive her) and I discussed her
> situation with my doctor who quite vehemently denied that it was a
> COVID death entirely due to a post-mortem COVID positive test result
> (taken without the permission of her next of kin) and solely based on
> that alone and no other evidence. The doctor insisted it was almost
> certainly cardiac related but couldn't tell specifically based on what
> the next of kin told him. He said the most that could be said with
> respect to COVID was that it possibly weakened her defences against
> heart failure but even that was iffy.
>
> Nevertheless she goes into the official records as yet another COVID
> casualty despite strong evidence to the contrary.
>
> One thing for sure - it wasn't a suicide!

'Brief illness', as A Friend suggested, covers the turf.

I wouldn't mention Covid unless you want a donnybrook at the wake...

A Friend wrote:
>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 11:03:24 -0500, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:

>>>>"Those of my acquaintance" aside, I'm speaking as someone who edited
>>>>big and small newspapers over the course of a long career. Based on
>>>>that, I strongly suggest that a family not use the phrase "died
>>>>suddenly," as many people see this as code for suicide. There are all
>>>>sorts of alternatives -- brief illness, while jogging, at work, in a
>>>>car accident, whatever. People can print as few details as they like,
>>>>of course, but they shouldn't be surprised when stupid gossips start
>>>>spreading misinformation.

>>>"Following a respiratory cessation..."

>>What WOULD you suggest in a situation where the cause of death is
>>uncertain?

>I've already addressed that. If you can't cite the exact cause of
>death, you can mention the circumstances. See above.

H.G. was trying to get moviePig to stop contributing STOOPID. He wasn't
contradicting you. I thought you made yourself clear and that your points
were reasonable, but "reasonable" is irrelevant when it comes to discussing
anything with moviePig.

>>. . .

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:54:28 -0500, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
wrote:

>On 3/11/2023 1:20 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 11:03:24 -0500, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Nevertheless she goes into the official records as yet another COVID
>> casualty despite strong evidence to the contrary.
>>
>> One thing for sure - it wasn't a suicide!
>
>'Brief illness', as A Friend suggested, covers the turf.
>
>I wouldn't mention Covid unless you want a donnybrook at the wake...
>
That was a year ago now so definitely not happening now but I
definitely get your point!

I'm not sure why my family chose not to do a newspaper obit but that
was the decision - I probably could have carried the day otherwise on
that decision but didn't.

She died at her computer and it seems she was web surfing at the time.

A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:

> In article <tubor2$2t9$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
> <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:

>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:
>>> In article <tt9g7p$lfu$2@pcls7.std.com>, Micky DuPree
>>> <MDuPree@theworld.com.snip.to.reply> wrote:
>>>> A Friend <nope@noway.com> writes:

>>>>> Unfortunately, "died suddenly" has become a euphemism for suicide.
>>>>> This is very unfair to many people whose loved ones do, indeed,
>>>>> die suddenly.
>>>>
>>>> Eh, suicides deserve their place in the obit column too, and it's
>>>> not everyone's business as to the specifics, so "died suddenly"
>>>> fits them as well as auto accidents and unattended strokes and
>>>> heart attacks.
>>>
>>> This is no "eh" to grieving people whose loved one did indeed die
>>> suddenly, but who can't say it that way because everyone will
>>> presume from the phrasing that the death was a suicide.
>>
>> Your post was the first I've heard that anyone anywhere would make
>> such an assumption. I'm not saying that no one anywhere does so, but
>> it's not nearly as routine an assumption as you're making it out to
>> be. A lot of obits don't include any background on the death itself
>> at all, which is probably the best thing to advise in the case of
>> suicides either way, since among those of your acquaintance,
>> evidently saying "died suddenly" will out them as suicides anyway,
>> which doesn't accomplish the desired goal of hiding from the social
>> stigma.
>
> "Those of my acquaintance" aside, I'm speaking as someone who edited
> big and small newspapers over the course of a long career. Based on
> that, I strongly suggest that a family not use the phrase "died
> suddenly," as many people see this as code for suicide.

Then taking "those of your acquaintance" as enormous and representative
of the population at large as a given, it's still a practical and
compassionate problem.

> There are all sorts of alternatives -- brief illness, while jogging,
> at work, in a car accident, whatever. People can print as few details
> as they like, of course, but they shouldn't be surprised when stupid
> gossips start spreading misinformation.

One doesn't want to stigmatize either suicides or non-suicides. If no
one is to use "died suddenly" anymore, then what's to be the next code
phrase that everyone's going to suss out and start gossiping about? I
could suggest "while battling an illness," not bothering to mention that
it was a mental illness, but anything that comes to be understood as
code for "suicide" is going to go through the same process.

The problem is not phraseology, but the social stigma attached to mental
illness.

-Micky