I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having been
a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the excessive
force rules for cops should apply to him as well.

Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the sum
total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.

Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines. Usually
they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him if they're out
of ammo.

And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.

On Fri, 05 May 2023 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

>I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having been
>a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the excessive
>force rules for cops should apply to him as well.
>
>Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the sum
>total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
>disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
>specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
>training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.
>
>Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines. Usually
>they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him if they're out
>of ammo.
>
>And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
>people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
>on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.
>

If the guy had attacked someone I would agree with you but while the
guy was clearly being obnoxious my understanding is that he never got
physical with anyone. What he really needed was mental health
treatment as he clearly had issues. Something that one would think a
city with a 10 billion dollar budget could manage to provide to treat
people like that guy.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 May 2023 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having been
>> a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the excessive
>> force rules for cops should apply to him as well.
>>
>> Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the sum
>> total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
>> disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
>> specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
>> training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.
>>
>> Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines. Usually
>> they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him if they're out
>> of ammo.
>>
>> And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
>> people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
>> on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.
>>
>
> If the guy had attacked someone I would agree with you but while the
> guy was clearly being obnoxious my understanding is that he never got
> physical with anyone. What he really needed was mental health
> treatment as he clearly had issues. Something that one would think a
> city with a 10 billion dollar budget could manage to provide to treat
> people like that guy.

He'd probably just refuse treatment even if it was provided. Most mentally
ill people do. And you can't force them because "they have rights", even
though Britney Spears doesn't.

On Fri, 05 May 2023 15:22:51 +0000, BTR1701 <no_email@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 05 May 2023 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having been
>>> a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the excessive
>>> force rules for cops should apply to him as well.
>>>
>>> Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the sum
>>> total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
>>> disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
>>> specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
>>> training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.
>>>
>>> Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines. Usually
>>> they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him if they're out
>>> of ammo.
>>>
>>> And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
>>> people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
>>> on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.
>>>
>>
>> If the guy had attacked someone I would agree with you but while the
>> guy was clearly being obnoxious my understanding is that he never got
>> physical with anyone. What he really needed was mental health
>> treatment as he clearly had issues. Something that one would think a
>> city with a 10 billion dollar budget could manage to provide to treat
>> people like that guy.
>
>He'd probably just refuse treatment even if it was provided. Most mentally
>ill people do. And you can't force them because "they have rights", even
>though Britney Spears doesn't.

Yes, sadly that is often the case. That said I do think the treatment
should be available to everyone. I don't know what, if anything, can
be done about the people who clearly need help but refuse it, but
that's no reason to not make the treatment available to them.

I feel the same way about treatment for addiction. It should be
readily available to anyone whether they can afford it or not as the
gains to society for getting someone off of their addiction to drugs
is worth the cost. Not that we can force anyone to go through such
treatment other than by incarcerating them where drugs would be harder
to obtain.

On Friday, May 5, 2023 at 11:30:25 AM UTC-4, shawn wrote:
> On Fri, 05 May 2023 15:22:51 +0000, BTR1701 <no_e...@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
> >shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 05 May 2023 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 <atr...@mac.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having been
> >>> a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the excessive
> >>> force rules for cops should apply to him as well.
> >>>
> >>> Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the sum
> >>> total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
> >>> disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
> >>> specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
> >>> training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine..
> >>>
> >>> Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines.. Usually
> >>> they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him if they're out
> >>> of ammo.
> >>>
> >>> And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
> >>> people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
> >>> on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.
> >>>
> >>
> >> If the guy had attacked someone I would agree with you but while the
> >> guy was clearly being obnoxious my understanding is that he never got
> >> physical with anyone. What he really needed was mental health
> >> treatment as he clearly had issues. Something that one would think a
> >> city with a 10 billion dollar budget could manage to provide to treat
> >> people like that guy.
> >
> >He'd probably just refuse treatment even if it was provided. Most mentally
> >ill people do. And you can't force them because "they have rights", even
> >though Britney Spears doesn't.
> Yes, sadly that is often the case. That said I do think the treatment
> should be available to everyone. I don't know what, if anything, can
> be done about the people who clearly need help but refuse it, but
> that's no reason to not make the treatment available to them.
>
> I feel the same way about treatment for addiction. It should be
> readily available to anyone whether they can afford it or not as the
> gains to society for getting someone off of their addiction to drugs
> is worth the cost. Not that we can force anyone to go through such
> treatment other than by incarcerating them where drugs would be harder
> to obtain.

I'm not even sure drugs are harder to obtain in prison. I have seen many TV programs where people in prison get - or, in some cases, make - their own drugs or liquor. Many of those are fiction but they seem to be informed by reality. (Or maybe this is just a trope like guns that never need reloading..) Unfortunately, I don't think we have any prison administrators on this newsgroup who can confirm or refute this.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 05 May 2023 15:22:51 +0000, BTR1701 <no_email@invalid.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 05 May 2023 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having been
>>>> a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the excessive
>>>> force rules for cops should apply to him as well.
>>>>
>>>> Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the sum
>>>> total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
>>>> disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
>>>> specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
>>>> training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.
>>>>
>>>> Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines. Usually
>>>> they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him if they're out
>>>> of ammo.
>>>>
>>>> And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
>>>> people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
>>>> on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If the guy had attacked someone I would agree with you but while the
>>> guy was clearly being obnoxious my understanding is that he never got
>>> physical with anyone. What he really needed was mental health
>>> treatment as he clearly had issues. Something that one would think a
>>> city with a 10 billion dollar budget could manage to provide to treat
>>> people like that guy.
>>
>> He'd probably just refuse treatment even if it was provided. Most mentally
>> ill people do. And you can't force them because "they have rights", even
>> though Britney Spears doesn't.
>
> Yes, sadly that is often the case. That said I do think the treatment
> should be available to everyone. I don't know what, if anything, can
> be done about the people who clearly need help but refuse it

Arrest them and put them in prison if they won't take the treatment or
leave.

Those are your choices: treatment or get the fuck out of the park, or off
the sidewalk, or off the beach, etc. And you won't be using our trains and
buses as mobile psych wards anymore, either.

Slab City out in the Mojave Desert awaits your arrival.

On 2023-05-05 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 said:

> I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having been
> a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the excessive
> force rules for cops should apply to him as well.
>
> Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the sum
> total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
> disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
> specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
> training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.
>
> Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines. Usually
> they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him if they're out
> of ammo.

Or maybe strike the enemy combatant with a cinder block or rebar, if
the knife is knocked away... ;)

> And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
> people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
> on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.

--
"Who would ever do this to him!?" - HottCiara on DOOL (04-27-2020), asking
who would stab Victor Kirakis... How about ANYONE WHO'S EVER MET HIM??!!

On 2023-05-05 15:22:51 +0000, BTR1701 said:

> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 05 May 2023 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having been
>>> a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the excessive
>>> force rules for cops should apply to him as well.
>>>
>>> Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the sum
>>> total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
>>> disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
>>> specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
>>> training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.
>>>
>>> Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines. Usually
>>> they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him if they're out
>>> of ammo.
>>>
>>> And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
>>> people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
>>> on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.
>>>
>>
>> If the guy had attacked someone I would agree with you but while the
>> guy was clearly being obnoxious my understanding is that he never got
>> physical with anyone. What he really needed was mental health
>> treatment as he clearly had issues. Something that one would think a
>> city with a 10 billion dollar budget could manage to provide to treat
>> people like that guy.
>
> He'd probably just refuse treatment even if it was provided. Most mentally
> ill people do. And you can't force them because "they have rights", even
> though Britney Spears doesn't.

You've got it backwards - it's not that Spears should have the same
"rights" - it's that all of these people (*incl.* Spears!) should be
locked up (in an asylum). Rich or poor.

--
"Who would ever do this to him!?" - HottCiara on DOOL (04-27-2020), asking
who would stab Victor Kirakis... How about ANYONE WHO'S EVER MET HIM??!!

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 05 May 2023 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

>>I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having been
>>a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the excessive
>>force rules for cops should apply to him as well.

>>Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the sum
>>total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
>>disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
>>specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
>>training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.

>>Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines. Usually
>>they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him if they're out
>>of ammo.

>>And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
>>people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
>>on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.

>If the guy had attacked someone I would agree with you but while the
>guy was clearly being obnoxious my understanding is that he never got
>physical with anyone. What he really needed was mental health
>treatment as he clearly had issues. Something that one would think a
>city with a 10 billion dollar budget could manage to provide to treat
>people like that guy.

He wasn't "clearly being obnoxious". The passengers who restrained him
decided he was potentially dangerous.

Neely said, "I don't care if I die."

Someone who says that is potentially dangerous.

I'm neither defending nor condemning the choke hold. Under entirely
different circumstances, sure, he could have been restrained till
someone took him for a psychiatric admission. What do you expect other
passengers to do? Just ignoring someone who is potentially dangerous in
a confined area in which innocent people might be harmed is not an
option. Let's not blame other passengers for taking action before Neely
harmed or attempted to harm an innocent bystander.

Juan Alberto Vazquez said he was riding the subway when he saw
a man, later identified as [Jordan] Neely, enter the car just
as the doors were closing. Neely immediately launched into an
aggressive rant about being "fed up and hungry" and "tired of
having nothing," Vazquez said.

Vazquez quoted Neely as saying: "I don't care if I die. I don't
care if I go to jail. I don't have any food ... I'm done."

Neely then took off his coat and threw it on the floor and said
he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence, Vazquez
said.

Many passengers became visibly uncomfortable and moved to other
parts of the train car, but Vazquez told CNN it didn't seem
like Neely was armed or looking to attack anyone.

Another rider then approached Neely from behind and put him in
a chokehold, Vazquez said.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>>. . .

>Yes, sadly that is often the case. That said I do think the treatment
>should be available to everyone. I don't know what, if anything, can
>be done about the people who clearly need help but refuse it, but
>that's no reason to not make the treatment available to them.

I'm a public transportation advocate. Public transportation is for the
masses. If someone cannot ride public transportation without adversely
affecting others, then he must not ride public transportation.

In this case, the rights of the community outweigh the right of this
individual to ruin the shared trip. He was causing harm by not leaving
everyone else alone even if he wasn't starting a fight.

>I feel the same way about treatment for addiction. It should be
>readily available to anyone whether they can afford it or not as the
>gains to society for getting someone off of their addiction to drugs
>is worth the cost. Not that we can force anyone to go through such
>treatment other than by incarcerating them where drugs would be harder
>to obtain.

Offering treatment is an entirely separate issue than keeping them
away from other people in shared spaces if they just won't leave perfect
strangers alone who don't want to be around anyone loudly complaining that
he just wants to die and therefore would perceive as a potential threat.

On Fri, 5 May 2023 18:00:38 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>On Fri, 05 May 2023 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>
>>>I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having been
>>>a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the excessive
>>>force rules for cops should apply to him as well.
>
>>>Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the sum
>>>total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
>>>disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
>>>specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
>>>training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.
>
>>>Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines. Usually
>>>they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him if they're out
>>>of ammo.
>
>>>And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
>>>people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
>>>on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.
>
>>If the guy had attacked someone I would agree with you but while the
>>guy was clearly being obnoxious my understanding is that he never got
>>physical with anyone. What he really needed was mental health
>>treatment as he clearly had issues. Something that one would think a
>>city with a 10 billion dollar budget could manage to provide to treat
>>people like that guy.
>
>He wasn't "clearly being obnoxious". The passengers who restrained him
>decided he was potentially dangerous.
>
Yes, but from his previous arrests it seems clear that he wasn't
actually dangerous. He was someone that would push up to the line but
not cross it into actual physical confrontations. I agree that people
shouldn't have to deal with such things and I would certainly be
worried about someone saying the sorts of things he did, but without
him actually physically confronting someone what are you legally
allowed to do? I don't think the marine's actions fit into what is
legally allowed (assuming the guy hadn't died.)

Of course my viewpoint has been altered a bit after watching Louis
Rossman's video on the subject. Which comes from his years of riding
the NYC subway where these people getting on the trains and yelling at
the world are common. Often though the people yelling aren't actually
yelling at someone (even if they are looking straight at a person) but
are yelling at someone that only they can see. Here is his video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRkIi857ncs

>Neely said, "I don't care if I die."
>
>Someone who says that is potentially dangerous.

Oh, I agree with that but from all that I've seen/read he didn't even
touch anyone else. I know that in that situation I would want to take
some action to keep him away from me, but legally I don't know that
any physical action is allowed when the man hasn't done anything more
than yell at the world.

>I'm neither defending nor condemning the choke hold. Under entirely
>different circumstances, sure, he could have been restrained till
>someone took him for a psychiatric admission. What do you expect other
>passengers to do? Just ignoring someone who is potentially dangerous in
>a confined area in which innocent people might be harmed is not an
>option. Let's not blame other passengers for taking action before Neely
>harmed or attempted to harm an innocent bystander.
>
> Juan Alberto Vazquez said he was riding the subway when he saw
> a man, later identified as [Jordan] Neely, enter the car just
> as the doors were closing. Neely immediately launched into an
> aggressive rant about being "fed up and hungry" and "tired of
> having nothing," Vazquez said.
>
> Vazquez quoted Neely as saying: "I don't care if I die. I don't
> care if I go to jail. I don't have any food ... I'm done."
>
> Neely then took off his coat and threw it on the floor and said
> he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence, Vazquez
> said.
>
> Many passengers became visibly uncomfortable and moved to other
> parts of the train car, but Vazquez told CNN it didn't seem
> like Neely was armed or looking to attack anyone.
>
> Another rider then approached Neely from behind and put him in
> a chokehold, Vazquez said.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>Fri, 5 May 2023 18:00:38 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com>:
>>shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 05 May 2023 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

>>>>I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen
>>>>having been a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds,
>>>>so the excessive force rules for cops should apply to him as well.

>>>>Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that
>>>>the sum total of your understanding of military basic training is that
>>>>you disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of
>>>>a few very specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for
>>>>a year gets more training on how to properly choke people than does
>>>>the average Marine.

>>>>Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most
>>>>Marines. Usually they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe
>>>>stab him if they're out of ammo.

>>>>And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes,
>>>>regular people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to
>>>>apply chokeholds on lunatics who've already been arrested and released
>>>>40 times.

>>>If the guy had attacked someone I would agree with you but while the
>>>guy was clearly being obnoxious my understanding is that he never got
>>>physical with anyone. What he really needed was mental health
>>>treatment as he clearly had issues. Something that one would think a
>>>city with a 10 billion dollar budget could manage to provide to treat
>>>people like that guy.

>>He wasn't "clearly being obnoxious". The passengers who restrained him
>>decided he was potentially dangerous.

>Yes, but from his previous arrests it seems clear that he wasn't
>actually dangerous.

There is no "but" shawn. The passengers who restrained him had no such
knowledge. All they had before them was a crazed man who stated that he
wanted to die. That is a potentially dangerous individual.

>He was someone that would push up to the line but
>not cross it into actual physical confrontations. I agree that people
>shouldn't have to deal with such things and I would certainly be
>worried about someone saying the sorts of things he did, but without
>him actually physically confronting someone what are you legally
>allowed to do? I don't think the marine's actions fit into what is
>legally allowed (assuming the guy hadn't died.)

I'm wasn't discussing legalities here. It's entirely possible that
the man who killed him and the men who restrained him could be charged
with crimes. I'm guessing no charges will be brought as the men will be
sympathetic, not because it wasn't a criminal act.

It's just not relevant to why they acted, perceiving danger to the other
passengers. Someone who disturbs other people in a confined setting who
states that he wants to die should be seen as potentially dangerous.

>Of course my viewpoint has been altered a bit after watching Louis
>Rossman's video on the subject. Which comes from his years of riding
>the NYC subway where these people getting on the trains and yelling at
>the world are common.

I encounter similar crap here, not every ride but often enough. I
haven't encountered anyone wanting to die, though.

>. . .

In article <6dma5ipdciehoj44v6m562lo54jhmh1ltr@4ax.com>,
shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 5 May 2023 18:00:38 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
> <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> >He wasn't "clearly being obnoxious". The passengers who restrained him
> >decided he was potentially dangerous.
> >
> Yes, but from his previous arrests it seems clear that he wasn't
> actually dangerous. He was someone that would push up to the line but
> not cross it into actual physical confrontations. I agree that people
> shouldn't have to deal with such things and I would certainly be
> worried about someone saying the sorts of things he did, but without
> him actually physically confronting someone what are you legally
> allowed to do? I don't think the marine's actions fit into what is
> legally allowed (assuming the guy hadn't died.)
>
> Of course my viewpoint has been altered a bit after watching Louis
> Rossman's video on the subject. Which comes from his years of riding
> the NYC subway where these people getting on the trains and yelling at
> the world are common. Often though the people yelling aren't actually
> yelling at someone (even if they are looking straight at a person) but
> are yelling at someone that only they can see. Here is his video:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRkIi857ncs
>
> >Neely said, "I don't care if I die."
> >
> >Someone who says that is potentially dangerous.
>
> Oh, I agree with that but from all that I've seen/read he didn't even
> touch anyone else. I know that in that situation I would want to take
> some action to keep him away from me, but legally I don't know that
> any physical action is allowed when the man hasn't done anything more
> than yell at the world.

The only thing a person has to prove after having acted in self-defense
is a reasonable fear of physical harm. Based on that guy's behavior, the
fear was reasonable.

And his behavior in his previous arrests is irrelevant. It's not like
people can run a potential subway attacker through NCIC to get his
criminal history on their cell phones.

atropos@mac.com wrote:

>And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
>people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
>on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.

On Monday afternoon, a 30-year-old mentally ill vagrant named Jordan Neely,
who also happens to be black, boarded a subway train in New York City and
began harassing the passengers. Witnesses described Neely as �hostile and
erratic.� Witnesses say he was yelling and carrying on, screaming that he's
�ready to die� and �doesn't mind going to jail.� This was not Neely's first
foray into this territory. He was a man with 44 prior arrests, with charges
ranging from assault to drug-related offenses. He also had an open warrant for
felony assault dating back to 2021. Multiple people on social media have since
reported their own alleged run-ins with Neely, who according to these reports,
was known to harass and threaten passengers.

In other words, Neely was yet another violent repeat criminal who had been
essentially granted free rein over the subway system, where crime has
skyrocketed over the last few years, as commuters are frequently accosted,
mugged, assaulted � even raped and killed. This is not just the case in the
subway system, but in the city as a whole, and in major cities all across the
country. But on the F train on Monday afternoon, some of the passengers
decided that they had enough. Rather than sitting there and waiting for Neely
to lash out violently � hoping that if he starts physically attacking people,
they'll be able to intervene before anyone is seriously hurt or killed �
instead a few passengers stepped up to do what was necessary. At least three
good samaritans restrained Neely. One man � a white man and former Marine �
had Neely in a chokehold. Another, a black man, was holding down his arms.
They held him down for several minutes, because there was no law enforcement
immediately on the scene. Eventually, Neely lost consciousness and died.
Police took at least one of the passengers who restrained him, the white man,
into custody for questioning. They released him sometime later without
pressing charges. The medical examiner has since ruled the death a homicide.

There were over ten people killed on the New York City subway last year, along
with many more accosted and assaulted. You do not know any of their names.
Many more fell victim to violent crime all over the city. Over 400 were
murdered just in 2022 alone. You do not know any of their names, either. The
problem for those victims is that, in a great many of those cases, the
perpetrators were black. But violence carried out by black people � no matter
the race of the victim � is not at all useful to the media or the Democrat
Party, which means that those victims must remain nameless and faceless. But
in this case, the man who had Jordan Neely in a headlock was white, and that's
the only detail the Left needs. Hundreds of black people are killed every
year, year after year, a trail of violence and death and misery that is only
getting worse over time. Victim after victim, day after day, and the Left says
nothing, does not care, does not make martyrs or heroes out of any of them,
does not demand that we �say their names.� They wait, and wait, and wait,
until the extremely rare occurrence where a black man dies allegedly at the
hands of a white man, and that is when they leap into action, taking full
advantage. Which is what has happened here.

Protesters swarmed the subway, demanding justice for Jordan Neely. The media
went into full George Floyd mode, blatantly racializing the incident, while,
in real time, reshaping Jordan Neely into something other than the violent
career criminal that he actually was. In this case, it appears that Neely
sometimes dressed like Michael Jackson and performed unsolicited dance
routines on the train. A fact that if anything makes him even less sympathetic
as far as I'm concerned, but which the media is using to paint him as some
sort of struggling artist and kind soul who wished only to bring people joy
and happiness. Many headlines have been published claiming that a white man
killed a black Michael Jackson impersonator, as if they tackled him to the
ground and choked him out FOR being a Michael Jackson impersonator.

Democrat politicians have also been activated. AOC, Ayanna Presley, and the
Squad have been leading the lynch mob as usual. AOC has been making frantic
public statements, demanding an arrest and criminal charges, though she
doesn't need to wait for any of those things, least of all a conviction, to
pass down her own verdict. The mayor of New York City has been, to this point,
slightly more cautious in his public response. But this isn't good enough for
AOC, who demands that the mayor publicly accuse the Marine of murder. To be
clear, this is an elected official demanding that a citizen who hasn't even
been arrested be pronounced guilty of murder without trial or criminal charge.
She, along with many others on the Left, are openly calling for a public
lynching of a man who hasn't even been officially accused of committing any
crime. It remains to be seen whether they will be able to fully repeat their
George Floyd trick with Jordan Neely � riots, looting, another �racial
awakening,� an unjust and politically motivated trial and conviction, etc �
but that is clearly their goal, and they are on their way towards it right
now.

But as these deeply evil forces set to work to make full use of this incident,
and to make another white man into a sacrificial victim on the altar of
�racial justice,� what is the actual truth? What is the correct response? Who
is really at fault? Well the answer to the last question will give us the
answer to the others. There are two parties responsible for the death of
Jordan Neely. The first is Jordan Neely himself. He may have been mentally
ill, but he is also the only person on the planet who can directly decide how
he behaves. He is the one who harassed a train full of passengers who were
just trying to get to or from work. He is the one who has lived a life of
crime for at least the past decade. It is his actions that precipitated the
events that led to his death. If he had not chosen to announce himself as a
potential threat to those around him, he would still be alive today. He put
the other passengers in a position of having to choose whether to gamble with
their safety by allowing him to run around screaming, waiting for him to do
something violent, or step in and subdue him. He put them in that position.

But it wasn't just him. The other party responsible is the Democrat Party, the
political leadership of the city, the justice system, DAs like Alvin Bragg,
who have made the conscious decision to keep men like Jordan Neely on the
street, to continually release them back into the public no matter how many
dozens of crimes they commit, until they are either killed or they kill
someone else. And in the latter case, they might still stay on the streets
even after that. Jordan Neely belonged in prison or a mental asylum. He had
long ago made it clear that he had no interest in being a civil member of
society. He was a danger to his community, and to himself, and this had been
demonstrated time and time again. If the system had done what it is supposed
to do, gotten him off the street and locked away somewhere, he would be alive
today. The Left does not want to prosecute crime because crime is committed in
a racially disproportionate way, which means that prosecutions and convictions
and incarcerations will be naturally disproportionate. But the Left would
rather let criminals terrorize you and your family than allow that.

In fact it's a win/win for them. If they refuse to prosecute criminals, they
can enact their perverse idea of racial justice by keeping black criminals on
the street. And at the same time they can put honest citizens in a position of
having to make very difficult decisions, with their lives potentially on the
line. Then they can exploit those situations, send the mob after another
scapegoat, and use the chaos they've created to advance their racial
narrative.

Which is why the one man I will not blame is the man who is getting all the
blame right now. You can argue that it is not wise, from a self-preservation
standpoint, for anyone � especially any white man � to intervene in these
kinds of situations anymore. While the Left has engineered a win/win for
themselves, for you it is a lose/lose. Either you get hurt in your attempt to
protect yourself and others, or you prevail in the struggle and then find
yourself pursued by a crazed leftist mob calling for your head. If you're
arrested and charged, you'll find yourself standing before a New York City
jury, where your conviction will have already been decided before the jury was
even selected. This makes it extremely dicey, to say the least, to play the
good samaritan role. But it also makes it all the more heroic. The marine �
who, at this point but likely for not much longer, remains nameless � is not
only NOT at fault, not only in the right, but is in fact a hero. He did what
the leaders of his city would not do, what the system refuses to do, what the
police are not allowed to do anymore. He was under no moral obligation � nor
any legal obligation � to sit silently, obediently, while a psychotic criminal
vagrant ran wild, threatening and harassing innocent people. This is an
obligation that the Left wants to impose on us. They want us to believe that
it is our responsibility to helplessly submit ourselves to the whims of every
violent scumbag we come across. But it is not so. And so this man took action.
He deserves a medal for his actions. Yet I'm afraid, in this depraved culture,
that his reward will be quite different.

In article <u33gpn$2entf$2@dont-email.me>,
Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

> atropos@mac.com wrote:
>
> > And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes,
> > regular people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to
> > apply chokeholds on lunatics who've already been arrested and released
> > 40 times.
>
> On Monday afternoon, a 30-year-old mentally ill vagrant named Jordan Neely,
> who also happens to be black, boarded a subway train in New York City and
> began harassing the passengers. Witnesses described Neely as "hostile and
> erratic". Witnesses say he was yelling and carrying on, screaming that he's
> "ready to die" and "doesn't mind going to jail". This was not Neely's first
> foray into this territory. He was a man with 44 prior arrests, with charges
> ranging from assault to drug-related offenses. He also had an open warrant
> for felony assault dating back to 2021. Multiple people on social media have
> since reported their own alleged run-ins with Neely, who according to these
> reports, was known to harass and threaten passengers.
>
> In other words, Neely was yet another violent repeat criminal who had been
> essentially granted free rein over the subway system, where crime has
> skyrocketed over the last few years, as commuters are frequently accosted,
> mugged, assaulted-- even raped and killed. This is not just the case in the
> subway system, but in the city as a whole, and in major cities all across the
> country. But on the F train on Monday afternoon, some of the passengers
> decided that they had enough. Rather than sitting there and waiting for Neely
> to lash out violently-- hoping that if he starts physically attacking people,
> they'll be able to intervene before anyone is seriously hurt or killed--
> instead a few passengers stepped up to do what was necessary. At least three
> good samaritans restrained Neely. One man-- a white man and former Marine--
> had Neely in a chokehold. Another, a black man, was holding down his arms.
> They held him down for several minutes, because there was no law enforcement
> immediately on the scene. Eventually, Neely lost consciousness and died.
> Police took at least one of the passengers who restrained him, the white man,
> into custody for questioning. They released him sometime later without
> pressing charges. The medical examiner has since ruled the death a homicide.

> There were over ten people killed on the New York City subway last year,
> along with many more accosted and assaulted. You do not know any of their
> names. Many more fell victim to violent crime all over the city. Over 400
> were murdered just in 2022 alone. You do not know any of their names,
> either. The problem for those victims is that, in a great many of those
> cases, the perpetrators were black. But violence carried out by black
> people-- no matter the race of the victim-- is not at all useful to the
> media or the Democrat Party, which means that those victims must remain
> nameless and faceless. But in this case, the man who had Jordan Neely in
> a headlock was white, and that's the only detail the Left needs. Hundreds
> of black people are killed every year, year after year, a trail of violence
> and death and misery that is only getting worse over time. Victim after
> victim, day after day, and the Left says nothing, does not care, does not
> make martyrs or heroes out of any of them, does not demand that we "say
> their names". They wait, and wait, and wait, until the extremely rare
> occurrence where a black man dies allegedly at the hands of a white man,
> and that is when they leap into action, taking full advantage. Which is
> what has happened here.

Yep, black lives only matter to 'progressives' when they end at the
hands of a white person. If it's a white cop, then they've hit jackpot.

> Protesters swarmed the subway, demanding justice for Jordan Neely. The media
> went into full George Floyd mode, blatantly racializing the incident, while,
> in real time, reshaping Jordan Neely into something other than the violent
> career criminal that he actually was. In this case, it appears that Neely
> sometimes dressed like Michael Jackson and performed unsolicited dance
> routines on the train. A fact that if anything makes him even less
> sympathetic as far as I'm concerned, but which the media is using to paint
> him as some sort of struggling artist and kind soul who wished only to
> bring people joy and happiness. Many headlines have been published claiming
> that a white man killed a black Michael Jackson impersonator, as if they
> tackled him to the ground and choked him out FOR being a Michael Jackson
> impersonator.
>
> Democrat politicians have also been activated. AOC, Ayanna Presley, and the
> Squad have been leading the lynch mob as usual. AOC has been making frantic
> public statements, demanding an arrest and criminal charges, though she
> doesn't need to wait for any of those things, least of all a conviction, to
> pass down her own verdict. The mayor of New York City has been, to this
> point, slightly more cautious in his public response. But this isn't good
> enough for AOC, who demands that the mayor publicly accuse the Marine of
> murder. To be clear, this is an elected official demanding that a citizen
> who hasn't even been arrested be pronounced guilty of murder without trial
> or criminal charge. She, along with many others on the Left, are openly
> calling for a public lynching of a man who hasn't even been officially
> accused of committing any crime. It remains to be seen whether they will
> be able to fully repeat their George Floyd trick with Jordan Neely-- riots,
> looting, another "racial awakening", an unjust and politically motivated
> trial and conviction, etc-- but that is clearly their goal, and they are
> on their way towards it right now.
>
> But as these deeply evil forces set to work to make full use of this
> incident, and to make another white man into a sacrificial victim on the
> altar of "racial justice", what is the actual truth? What is the correct
> response? Who is really at fault? Well the answer to the last question
> will give us the answer to the others. There are two parties responsible
> for the death of Jordan Neely. The first is Jordan Neely himself. He may
> have been mentally ill, but he is also the only person on the planet who
> can directly decide how he behaves. He is the one who harassed a train
> full of passengers who were just trying to get to or from work. He is the
> one who has lived a life of crime for at least the past decade. It is his
> actions that precipitated the events that led to his death. If he had not
> chosen to announce himself as a potential threat to those around him, he
> would still be alive today. He put the other passengers in a position of
> having to choose whether to gamble with their safety by allowing him to
> run around screaming, waiting for him to do something violent, or step in
> and subdue him. He put them in that position.
>
> But it wasn't just him. The other party responsible is the Democrat Party,
> the political leadership of the city, the justice system, DAs like Alvin
> Bragg, who have made the conscious decision to keep men like Jordan Neely
> on the street, to continually release them back into the public no matter
> how many dozens of crimes they commit, until they are either killed or
> they kill someone else. And in the latter case, they might still stay on
> the streets even after that. Jordan Neely belonged in prison or a mental
> asylum. He had long ago made it clear that he had no interest in being a
> civil member of society. He was a danger to his community, and to himself,
> and this had been demonstrated time and time again. If the system had done
> what it is supposed to do, gotten him off the street and locked away
> somewhere, he would be alive today. The Left does not want to prosecute
> crime because crime is committed in a racially disproportionate way, which
> means that prosecutions and convictions and incarcerations will be naturally
> disproportionate. But the Left would rather let criminals terrorize you
> and your family than allow that.

There's another reason the 'progressive' Left doesn't want to prosecute
crime: they believe America is an illegitimate nation, they hate us for
our standard of living and our comfortable lifestyle where even the poor
live better than 90% of the rest of the world, and our outsized (and to
them patently unfair) influence on the rest of the globe. Undermining
our justice system by electing these Soros-funded 'progressive' D.A.s
who allow crime to flourish is just another way of destabilizing the
society they hate so much and to undermine what they see as an
underserved quality of life for Americans in general.

> shawn
> > BTR1701
> >
> > And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
> > people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
> > on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.

lol

> What he really needed was mental health treatmentas he clearly had issues

Sometimes a choke hold is the best mental health treatment and odds are the
guy was already hopped up on psycho meds at the time the choke hold was
necessary.

In article <4de96ef4-ca3a-4246-acd4-4d806da93f40n@googlegroups.com>,
RichA <rander3128@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Friday, 5 May 2023 at 10:46:22 UTC-4, BTR1701 wrote:

> > I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having
> > been a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the
> > excessive force rules for cops should apply to him as well.
> >
> > Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the
> > sum total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
> > disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
> > specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
> > training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.
> >
> > Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines.
> > Usually they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him
> > if they're out of ammo.
> >
> > And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes,
> > regular people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to
> > apply chokeholds on lunatics who've already been arrested and released
> > 40 times.
>
> A fight is a fight and the idea is to subdue any way possible the other
> person, especially some subway nutjob who has gone berserk. The fact NO
> ONE ELSE helped this marine speaks VOLUMES about leftist SCUMBAGS who
> inhabit New York.

Actually, Rich, several other men *did* help the Marine subdue Neely,
one of whom was black, thereby nuking the whole "this was racism"
narrative leftists like Occasional-Cortex are trying to gin up. But you
won't see that reported by the media. As far as their concerned, the
black good samaritan never existed.

On 5/5/23 9:26 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <u33gpn$2entf$2@dont-email.me>,
> Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>
>> atropos@mac.com wrote:
>>
>>> And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes,
>>> regular people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to
>>> apply chokeholds on lunatics who've already been arrested and released
>>> 40 times.
>>
>> On Monday afternoon, a 30-year-old mentally ill vagrant named Jordan Neely,
>> who also happens to be black, boarded a subway train in New York City and
>> began harassing the passengers. Witnesses described Neely as "hostile and
>> erratic". Witnesses say he was yelling and carrying on, screaming that he's
>> "ready to die" and "doesn't mind going to jail". This was not Neely's first
>> foray into this territory. He was a man with 44 prior arrests, with charges
>> ranging from assault to drug-related offenses. He also had an open warrant
>> for felony assault dating back to 2021. Multiple people on social media have
>> since reported their own alleged run-ins with Neely, who according to these
>> reports, was known to harass and threaten passengers.
>>
>> In other words, Neely was yet another violent repeat criminal who had been
>> essentially granted free rein over the subway system, where crime has
>> skyrocketed over the last few years, as commuters are frequently accosted,
>> mugged, assaulted-- even raped and killed. This is not just the case in the
>> subway system, but in the city as a whole, and in major cities all across the
>> country. But on the F train on Monday afternoon, some of the passengers
>> decided that they had enough. Rather than sitting there and waiting for Neely
>> to lash out violently-- hoping that if he starts physically attacking people,
>> they'll be able to intervene before anyone is seriously hurt or killed--
>> instead a few passengers stepped up to do what was necessary. At least three
>> good samaritans restrained Neely. One man-- a white man and former Marine--
>> had Neely in a chokehold. Another, a black man, was holding down his arms.
>> They held him down for several minutes, because there was no law enforcement
>> immediately on the scene. Eventually, Neely lost consciousness and died.
>> Police took at least one of the passengers who restrained him, the white man,
>> into custody for questioning. They released him sometime later without
>> pressing charges. The medical examiner has since ruled the death a homicide.
>
>> There were over ten people killed on the New York City subway last year,
>> along with many more accosted and assaulted. You do not know any of their
>> names. Many more fell victim to violent crime all over the city. Over 400
>> were murdered just in 2022 alone. You do not know any of their names,
>> either. The problem for those victims is that, in a great many of those
>> cases, the perpetrators were black. But violence carried out by black
>> people-- no matter the race of the victim-- is not at all useful to the
>> media or the Democrat Party, which means that those victims must remain
>> nameless and faceless. But in this case, the man who had Jordan Neely in
>> a headlock was white, and that's the only detail the Left needs. Hundreds
>> of black people are killed every year, year after year, a trail of violence
>> and death and misery that is only getting worse over time. Victim after
>> victim, day after day, and the Left says nothing, does not care, does not
>> make martyrs or heroes out of any of them, does not demand that we "say
>> their names". They wait, and wait, and wait, until the extremely rare
>> occurrence where a black man dies allegedly at the hands of a white man,
>> and that is when they leap into action, taking full advantage. Which is
>> what has happened here.
>
> Yep, black lives only matter to 'progressives' when they end at the
> hands of a white person. If it's a white cop, then they've hit jackpot.
>
>> Protesters swarmed the subway, demanding justice for Jordan Neely. The media
>> went into full George Floyd mode, blatantly racializing the incident, while,
>> in real time, reshaping Jordan Neely into something other than the violent
>> career criminal that he actually was. In this case, it appears that Neely
>> sometimes dressed like Michael Jackson and performed unsolicited dance
>> routines on the train. A fact that if anything makes him even less
>> sympathetic as far as I'm concerned, but which the media is using to paint
>> him as some sort of struggling artist and kind soul who wished only to
>> bring people joy and happiness. Many headlines have been published claiming
>> that a white man killed a black Michael Jackson impersonator, as if they
>> tackled him to the ground and choked him out FOR being a Michael Jackson
>> impersonator.
>>
>> Democrat politicians have also been activated. AOC, Ayanna Presley, and the
>> Squad have been leading the lynch mob as usual. AOC has been making frantic
>> public statements, demanding an arrest and criminal charges, though she
>> doesn't need to wait for any of those things, least of all a conviction, to
>> pass down her own verdict. The mayor of New York City has been, to this
>> point, slightly more cautious in his public response. But this isn't good
>> enough for AOC, who demands that the mayor publicly accuse the Marine of
>> murder. To be clear, this is an elected official demanding that a citizen
>> who hasn't even been arrested be pronounced guilty of murder without trial
>> or criminal charge. She, along with many others on the Left, are openly
>> calling for a public lynching of a man who hasn't even been officially
>> accused of committing any crime. It remains to be seen whether they will
>> be able to fully repeat their George Floyd trick with Jordan Neely-- riots,
>> looting, another "racial awakening", an unjust and politically motivated
>> trial and conviction, etc-- but that is clearly their goal, and they are
>> on their way towards it right now.
>>
>> But as these deeply evil forces set to work to make full use of this
>> incident, and to make another white man into a sacrificial victim on the
>> altar of "racial justice", what is the actual truth? What is the correct
>> response? Who is really at fault? Well the answer to the last question
>> will give us the answer to the others. There are two parties responsible
>> for the death of Jordan Neely. The first is Jordan Neely himself. He may
>> have been mentally ill, but he is also the only person on the planet who
>> can directly decide how he behaves. He is the one who harassed a train
>> full of passengers who were just trying to get to or from work. He is the
>> one who has lived a life of crime for at least the past decade. It is his
>> actions that precipitated the events that led to his death. If he had not
>> chosen to announce himself as a potential threat to those around him, he
>> would still be alive today. He put the other passengers in a position of
>> having to choose whether to gamble with their safety by allowing him to
>> run around screaming, waiting for him to do something violent, or step in
>> and subdue him. He put them in that position.
>>
>> But it wasn't just him. The other party responsible is the Democrat Party,
>> the political leadership of the city, the justice system, DAs like Alvin
>> Bragg, who have made the conscious decision to keep men like Jordan Neely
>> on the street, to continually release them back into the public no matter
>> how many dozens of crimes they commit, until they are either killed or
>> they kill someone else. And in the latter case, they might still stay on
>> the streets even after that. Jordan Neely belonged in prison or a mental
>> asylum. He had long ago made it clear that he had no interest in being a
>> civil member of society. He was a danger to his community, and to himself,
>> and this had been demonstrated time and time again. If the system had done
>> what it is supposed to do, gotten him off the street and locked away
>> somewhere, he would be alive today. The Left does not want to prosecute
>> crime because crime is committed in a racially disproportionate way, which
>> means that prosecutions and convictions and incarcerations will be naturally
>> disproportionate. But the Left would rather let criminals terrorize you
>> and your family than allow that.
>
> There's another reason the 'progressive' Left doesn't want to prosecute
> crime: they believe America is an illegitimate nation,

On 5/5/23 9:31 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <4de96ef4-ca3a-4246-acd4-4d806da93f40n@googlegroups.com>,
> RichA <rander3128@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Friday, 5 May 2023 at 10:46:22 UTC-4, BTR1701 wrote:
>
>>> I'm seeing a lot of really stupid people saying the subway citizen having
>>> been a Marine means that he should be an expert on choke holds, so the
>>> excessive force rules for cops should apply to him as well.
>>>
>>> Listen, idiots. We all know you have never actually met a vet and that the
>>> sum total of your understanding of military basic training is that you
>>> disdainfully hate-watched FULL METAL JACKET once, but outside of a few very
>>> specific MOSs, a kid who does high school wrestling for a year gets more
>>> training on how to properly choke people than does the average Marine.
>>>
>>> Restraining choke holds are not a thing that happens for most Marines.
>>> Usually they just shoot the enemy and be done with it. Maybe stab him
>>> if they're out of ammo.
>>>
>>> And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes,
>>> regular people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to
>>> apply chokeholds on lunatics who've already been arrested and released
>>> 40 times.
>>
>> A fight is a fight and the idea is to subdue any way possible the other
>> person, especially some subway nutjob who has gone berserk. The fact NO
>> ONE ELSE helped this marine speaks VOLUMES about leftist SCUMBAGS who
>> inhabit New York.
>
> Actually, Rich, several other men *did* help the Marine subdue Neely,
> one of whom was black, thereby nuking the whole "this was racism"
> narrative leftists like Occasional-Cortex are trying to gin up. But you
> won't see that reported by the media. As far as their concerned, the
> black good samaritan never existed.

So you're saying in that minute thing you call a brain a black man can't
exist in a racist situation and it still be racist? Have you ever heard
of the words "Uncle Tom?" You say some of the stupidest motherfucking
shit I've ever heard. White supremacy has completely fried your brain.

In article <7no5M.1715206$MVg8.982898@fx12.iad>,
trotsky <gmsingh@email.com> wrote:

> On 5/5/23 9:26 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
> > In article <u33gpn$2entf$2@dont-email.me>,
> > Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:

> >> But it wasn't just him. The other party responsible is the Democrat Party,
> >> the political leadership of the city, the justice system, DAs like Alvin
> >> Bragg, who have made the conscious decision to keep men like Jordan Neely
> >> on the street, to continually release them back into the public no matter
> >> how many dozens of crimes they commit, until they are either killed or
> >> they kill someone else. And in the latter case, they might still stay on
> >> the streets even after that. Jordan Neely belonged in prison or a mental
> >> asylum. He had long ago made it clear that he had no interest in being a
> >> civil member of society. He was a danger to his community, and to himself,
> >> and this had been demonstrated time and time again. If the system had done
> >> what it is supposed to do, gotten him off the street and locked away
> >> somewhere, he would be alive today. The Left does not want to prosecute
> >> crime because crime is committed in a racially disproportionate way, which
> >> means that prosecutions and convictions and incarcerations will be
> >> naturally disproportionate. But the Left would rather let criminals
> >> terrorize you and your family than allow that.
> >
> > There's another reason the 'progressive' Left doesn't want to prosecute
> > crime: they believe America is an illegitimate nation,
>
> How do you know what progressives believe?

They say so, Hutt, you varicose dick vein. They write whole multi-part
articles about it in the New York Times. I take them at their word. Now
go take another flea bath.

On Fri, 05 May 2023 14:46:07 +0000, BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:

>And if your big blue cities weren't such lawless fucking shitholes, regular
>people wouldn't be forced into situations where they have to apply chokeholds
>on lunatics who've already been arrested and released 40 times.

In truth the latter are the main problem since judges keep giving them
"catch and release" bail terms that have everything to do with
"rights" and nothing at all to do with protecting the public
particularly when bail is given AFTER a second offence has been
committed while on bail for a previous offence.

Don't tell me that doesn't happen - our provincial attorney general
has just received a report on exactly that.

On Fri, 05 May 2023 11:30:19 -0400, shawn
<nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>I feel the same way about treatment for addiction. It should be
>readily available to anyone whether they can afford it or not as the
>gains to society for getting someone off of their addiction to drugs
>is worth the cost. Not that we can force anyone to go through such
>treatment other than by incarcerating them where drugs would be harder
>to obtain.

I regularly get into trouble in forums when I say I'd gladly triple
(or more) quality in depth treatment who really do want to get clean
but completely end drug maintenance programs.

DON'T patronize the public saying the opiod addictions are treatable
by maintenance - fentanyl and heroin are NOT like insulin and in any
case insulin isn't freely given so why should opiods be free? A
diabetic can easily get into medical trouble if they take too much
insulin but nearly all diabetics are smart enough to stick to their
prescribed levels. (It's not as if taking twice as much helps twice as
much after all)

On Fri, 05 May 2023 16:28:37 +0000, BTR1701 <no_email@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

>Those are your choices: treatment or get the fuck out of the park, or off
>the sidewalk, or off the beach, etc. And you won't be using our trains and
>buses as mobile psych wards anymore, either.
>
How would you enforce that? With a mobile tracking device?

On Fri, 5 May 2023 18:00:38 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>I'm neither defending nor condemning the choke hold. Under entirely
>different circumstances, sure, he could have been restrained till
>someone took him for a psychiatric admission. What do you expect other
>passengers to do? Just ignoring someone who is potentially dangerous in
>a confined area in which innocent people might be harmed is not an
>option. Let's not blame other passengers for taking action before Neely
>harmed or attempted to harm an innocent bystander.
>
And this is a real problem - we had in our city a recent murder where
the killer was vaping outside a MacD's and the victim politely asked
the guy to not blow his smoke into the face of the victim's 2 year old
and rather than the guy doing as asked stabbed the dad in the neck.

It isn't always obvious who the walking time bomb is in adance.

On 5/6/23 2:24 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
> In article <7no5M.1715206$MVg8.982898@fx12.iad>,
> trotsky <gmsingh@email.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/5/23 9:26 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
>>> In article <u33gpn$2entf$2@dont-email.me>,
>>> Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>
>>>> But it wasn't just him. The other party responsible is the Democrat Party,
>>>> the political leadership of the city, the justice system, DAs like Alvin
>>>> Bragg, who have made the conscious decision to keep men like Jordan Neely
>>>> on the street, to continually release them back into the public no matter
>>>> how many dozens of crimes they commit, until they are either killed or
>>>> they kill someone else. And in the latter case, they might still stay on
>>>> the streets even after that. Jordan Neely belonged in prison or a mental
>>>> asylum. He had long ago made it clear that he had no interest in being a
>>>> civil member of society. He was a danger to his community, and to himself,
>>>> and this had been demonstrated time and time again. If the system had done
>>>> what it is supposed to do, gotten him off the street and locked away
>>>> somewhere, he would be alive today. The Left does not want to prosecute
>>>> crime because crime is committed in a racially disproportionate way, which
>>>> means that prosecutions and convictions and incarcerations will be
>>>> naturally disproportionate. But the Left would rather let criminals
>>>> terrorize you and your family than allow that.
>>>
>>> There's another reason the 'progressive' Left doesn't want to prosecute
>>> crime: they believe America is an illegitimate nation,
>>
>> How do you know what progressives believe?
>
> They say so, Hutt, you varicose dick vein.

You're not even remotely credible. Prove you're not lying. If you
can't prove it, we have to assume you are lying.

They write whole multi-part
> articles about it in the New York Times. I take them at their word. Now
> go take another flea bath.

So your proof is "nameless multi-part articles in the New York Times"
and there is some edict somewhere that says this speaks for all
progressives? The technical term for this is a pile of dog shit. Hope
this helps.