On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 2:41:01 PM UTC-8, B.G. M. wrote:
> اے نئے سال بتا تجھ میں نیا پن کیا ھے
> ہر طرف خَلق نے کيوں شور مچا رکھا ہے
>[....]
> #فیض_احمد_فیض

janaab BGM saahib, aadaab. aap ki aur deegar tamaam ALUPers ki Khidmat meN ba'ad ek taveel muddat ke aadaab pesh kar rahaa hooN. aap sab ko Happy New Year. ummeed hai yeh nayaa saal insaan kii zaat ke liye Khush haali le ke aaye, aur duniyaa meN jahaaN kaheeN bhii log ek doosre se haiwaanoN kaa saa sulooq kar rahe haiN wahaaN amn-o-aashti bahaal kare.

itne barsoN ba'ad mere yahaaN waapas aane ki wajh k Google ke hukmraanoN kaa woh faisla hai jo unhoN ne USENET newsgroups (baa-shumool-e-ALUP) ke baare meN kiyaa hai. waise to aap sab hi ne Khabar paRhi hogi, magar jo ahbaab us se aagaah naheeN haiN, unki ittila' ke liye 'arz hai k Google ne kuchh yooN tay kiyaa hai, k --

"Effective February 24, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new conetnt from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of historical data will still be supported as it is done today."

ya'ani jo bhi ALUPers is waqt ba-zari'a-e-Google yahaaN posts karte aur paRhte aaye haiN un sab ko koi aur rasta iKhtiyaar karna paRega. is silsile meN chand soorateN saamne aati haiN, aap tamaam ahbaab se meraa sawaal hai k aap logoN ne is baare meN kuchh sochaa hai?

jo raste is moR se raste jaate haiN, mere Khayaal se kuchh yooN hai --

1.sab dostaan-e-ALUP, alt.language.urdu.poetry USENET newsgroup par hi post karte/paRhte raheN, aur iske liye koi aur USENET server aur client ist'emaal kareN. agar aap kaa yeh faisala hai, to Feb 24 ke ba'ad aap ne kisii server+client kaa soch rakha hai? agar haaN, to kaun se server/client kaa?

Advantage: the "home" (group) remains the same, a new "door" (new access method) has to be used.
Disadvantage: I don't know of any free alternatives to access USENET, but many ISPs do provide access, so you may already be paying for it and having access. Setting up your own newsgroups reader/poster software may be an easy task for some, and not so easy at all for others.

2. Google groups par koi nayaa maqaam aik naye group ki shakl meN qaa'im kiyaa jaaye -- yahaaN aane waale tamaam readers/posters/lurkers/... wahaaN kaa ruKh kareN. agar haaN to 15 saal qabl ek group Khaaksaar ne 2009 meN banaayaa thaa, shaayad isi din ke dhaRke se(!!!); chaheN to https://groups.google.com/g/alup par jaa kar subscribe kar leN.

Advantage: the familiar Google groups front end. Everyone posting here (on *this* ALUP) most likely already has an account using which they can subscribe and continue the discussions on *THAT* alup.
Disadvantage: who knows how long Google will let the fun continue?

3. Facebook, WhatsApp yaa aur kisi naye medium kaa ruKh kareN.
Facebook par bhi ek ALUP group hai jise aap https://www.facebook.com/groups/635636506554920/?ref=share_group_link par dekh sakte haiN (it has 43 members, is VERY low traffic; in fact, I don't recall seeing any posts/discussions in the last several months).

Advantage: take ALUP discussions into the 21st century. Most of us perhaps already use Facebook, WhatsApp etc.
Disadvantage: there is actually no way to do meaningful discussions on these media. I know, because I'm part of a few other groups (as I'm sure all of us are -- or a majority of us, at any rate) on both FB and WA. Still, the FB group is there already in case anyone wants to join.

aap logoN kaa kyaa Khayaal hai? Google to USENET alt.language.urdu.poetry ka "qatl" karega. badle meN aap kyaa karnaa pasand kareNge?

-UVR.

On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 5:11:41 PM UTC-6, UVR wrote:
> On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 2:41:01 PM UTC-8, B.G. M. wrote:
> > اے نئے سال بتا تجھ میں نیا پن کیا ھے
> > ہر طرف خَلق نے کيوں شور مچا رکھا ہے
> >[....]
> > #فیض_احمد_فیض

Happy 2024 BGM sahib.

> janaab BGM saahib, aadaab. aap ki aur deegar tamaam ALUPers ki Khidmat meN ba'ad ek taveel muddat ke aadaab pesh kar rahaa hooN. aap sab ko Happy New Year. ummeed hai yeh nayaa saal insaan kii zaat ke liye Khush haali le ke aaye, aur duniyaa meN jahaaN kaheeN bhii log ek doosre se haiwaanoN kaa saa sulooq kar rahe haiN wahaaN amn-o-aashti bahaal kare.

Amen.

aadaab UVR sahib. It is wonderful to see you back on Alup after a loooong gap. How I wish it were under different circumstances though!

> itne barsoN ba'ad mere yahaaN waapas aane ki wajh k Google ke hukmraanoN kaa woh faisla hai jo unhoN ne USENET newsgroups (baa-shumool-e-ALUP) ke baare meN kiyaa hai. waise to aap sab hi ne Khabar paRhi hogi, magar jo ahbaab us se aagaah naheeN haiN, unki ittila' ke liye 'arz hai k Google ne kuchh yooN tay kiyaa hai, k --
>
> "Effective February 24, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new conetnt from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of historical data will still be supported as it is done today."

I have been really sad since I first read this announcement. One she'r that immediately came to my mind is by my favorite poet, Nasir Kazmi:

kyuuN na rouuN tirii judaii meN
din guzaare haiN tere paas bahut :(

I have practically spent all of my adult life on Alup, have learned so much from the resident experts, made life long friends and had a lot of fun along the way. This is like home turf for me and the mere fact that Alup exists, and I can visit here anytime has always been reassuring. But eventually all good things must come to an end.

> ya'ani jo bhi ALUPers is waqt ba-zari'a-e-Google yahaaN posts karte aur paRhte aaye haiN un sab ko koi aur rasta iKhtiyaar karna paRega. is silsile meN chand soorateN saamne aati haiN, aap tamaam ahbaab se meraa sawaal hai k aap logoN ne is baare meN kuchh sochaa hai?

I have been preparing myself for the impending gloom and doom and am really grateful that you have listed some options to keep the group alive. I personally am not technically savvy enough to suggest any alternate avenues.
> jo raste is moR se raste jaate haiN, mere Khayaal se kuchh yooN hai --
>
> 1.sab dostaan-e-ALUP, alt.language.urdu.poetry USENET newsgroup par hi post karte/paRhte raheN, aur iske liye koi aur USENET server aur client ist'emaal kareN. agar aap kaa yeh faisala hai, to Feb 24 ke ba'ad aap ne kisii server+client kaa soch rakha hai? agar haaN, to kaun se server/client kaa?

> Advantage: the "home" (group) remains the same, a new "door" (new access method) has to be used.
> Disadvantage: I don't know of any free alternatives to access USENET, but many ISPs do provide access, so you may already be paying for it and having access. Setting up your own newsgroups reader/poster software may be an easy task for some, and not so easy at all for others.

* Is Option 1 kind of like 'mehfil-e-sukhan' that our friend Shoaib Tanvir sahib had created a while back? It did great for a few years, but ST could not keep up with the commitment required to run such a group. It takes up lot of time, energy, and technical know-how. I am not sure who amongst us can take on a task like that.

> 2. Google groups par koi nayaa maqaam aik naye group ki shakl meN qaa'im kiyaa jaaye -- yahaaN aane waale tamaam readers/posters/lurkers/... wahaaN kaa ruKh kareN. agar haaN to 15 saal qabl ek group Khaaksaar ne 2009 meN banaayaa thaa, shaayad isi din ke dhaRke se(!!!); chaheN to https://groups.google.com/g/alup par jaa kar subscribe kar leN.

> Advantage: the familiar Google groups front end. Everyone posting here (on *this* ALUP) most likely already has an account using which they can subscribe and continue the discussions on *THAT* alup.
> Disadvantage: who knows how long Google will let the fun continue?

* I really like Option 2. As you mention, this group already exists, we just have to detour to it.
I am unable to open the link though, get an error message. Will you please look into it and guide me?

> 3. Facebook, WhatsApp yaa aur kisi naye medium kaa ruKh kareN.
> Facebook par bhi ek ALUP group hai jise aap https://www.facebook.com/groups/635636506554920/?ref=share_group_link par dekh sakte haiN (it has 43 members, is VERY low traffic; in fact, I don't recall seeing any posts/discussions in the last several months).
>
> Advantage: take ALUP discussions into the 21st century. Most of us perhaps already use Facebook, WhatsApp etc.
> Disadvantage: there is actually no way to do meaningful discussions on these media. I know, because I'm part of a few other groups (as I'm sure all of us are -- or a majority of us, at any rate) on both FB and WA. Still, the FB group is there already in case anyone wants to join.

* Personally, I have never been much of a FB fan and am not active on it. Don't have the patience to deal with group messages, mostly of no interest to me me
usually self indulgences by individuals. Also, I liked the relative anonymity that Usenet groups provided.
However, I will consider Option 3 as a last resort. After all, this FB group already exists and we know if the posts mirror Alup, the quality will be maintained.

> aap logoN kaa kyaa Khayaal hai? Google to USENET alt.language.urdu.poetry ka "qatl" karega. badle meN aap kyaa karnaa pasand kareNge?
>
> -UVR.

Let us what the other members say.

Thanks UVR sahib, for trying to put a ventilator on Alup's deathbed.

It is not goodbye friends, not just yet.

__________Zoya

UVR SaaHib, aadaab.

I am afraid I wasn't able to open the link to your Option 2. I don't know if others have faced the same difficulty.

https://groups.google.com/g/alup

Naseer

On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 2:59:31 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
Hello UVR Sahib,

I wasn't able to open the second groups link as well. I'm glad that we can at least have the search ability in ALUP still alive! There's so much content here.
I'm already a member of FB group, but that's just unreliable, the posts don't normally appear as you would want and FB is on the decline as a social media platform as well.

Discord is another option. We can also create a discord server, everybody can join it and start posting there as well. Different channels can be created, thats' a great way to have the community alive. People will need a discord app on their phone or discord client on their desktops, it can also be used on the web (https://discord.com/). It is likely that this is one of the best ways today to create a community. Discord servers can be moderated easily, we can have admins, etc.

Please do check the settings on your google group "alup", might be set to private only.

Regards,

Amit Malhotra

> UVR SaaHib, aadaab.
>
> I am afraid I wasn't able to open the link to your Option 2. I don't know if others have faced the same difficulty.
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/alup
>
> Naseer

I went ahead and setup a small server / community on Discord today. It's setup to be more like a forum.
For those who don't know discord, it's a chat application that allows you to make communities. You will need to download a discord client (phone, laptop/desktop) or just use the discord web client to make an account and then use this link to join the community: https://discord.gg/GNRgXPxqsW

> Discord is another option. We can also create a discord server, everybody can join it and start posting there as well. Different channels can be created, thats' a great way to have the community alive. People will need a discord app on their phone or discord client on their desktops, it can also be used on the web (https://discord.com/). It is likely that this is one of the best ways today to create a community. Discord servers can be moderated easily, we can have admins, etc.

On Saturday 13 January 2024 at 21:55:35 UTC, Amit Malhotra wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 2:59:31 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> Hello UVR Sahib,
>
> I wasn't able to open the second groups link as well. I'm glad that we can at least have the search ability in ALUP still alive! There's so much content here.
> I'm already a member of FB group, but that's just unreliable, the posts don't normally appear as you would want and FB is on the decline as a social media platform as well.
>
> Discord is another option. We can also create a discord server, everybody can join it and start posting there as well. Different channels can be created, thats' a great way to have the community alive. People will need a discord app on their phone or discord client on their desktops, it can also be used on the web (https://discord.com/). It is likely that this is one of the best ways today to create a community. Discord servers can be moderated easily, we can have admins, etc.
>
> Please do check the settings on your google group "alup", might be set to private only.
>
> Regards,
>
> Amit Malhotra
> > UVR SaaHib, aadaab.
> >
> > I am afraid I wasn't able to open the link to your Option 2. I don't know if others have faced the same difficulty.
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/g/alup
> >
> > Naseer

Amit SaaHib, aadaab.

I hope UVR SaaHib sees these posts.

As you know I only joined FB a day ago. I would like to ask you the following questions, if I may and one or two observations as well.

1. I am surprised to see that in its 9 year life, it only has 44 members to date. Having said this, I am not sure if this ALUP in its almost 24 year life period had many more participants.

2. Why is FB unreliable and what is it about the appearance of the posts that is not to your liking?

3. What more can Discord offer which FB ALUP doesn't?

4. FB ALUP must feel quite settled with most if not all the arising issues ironed out. 44 people already participate in it. Shifting these people to yet another ALUP may be asking too much of them and is likely to divide and hence weaken the overall purpose of enjoying Urdu poetry. I am fully aware this current ALUP has not been all that active for some time now but this is normal. People move on, leave or even pass away.

5. I personally would like to support UVR SaaHib's ALUP based on my obsevations in 4. Currently, if I am not mistaken, the following people from this ALUP are members of FB ALUP. The date next to the name is the date when they joined this group.

a) Ali Minai 05/09/1994

b) U V Ravindra 29/05/1996

c) Rajiv Chakravarti 16/12/1997

d) Padmanabhan Srinagesh 01/01/1998

e) Amit Malhotra 21/12/1999 (Your good self)

f) Irfan Abid July 2001

g) Sarwar Alam Raz Oct 2001

i) v (Ravi Sahib) Feb 2006 (? I think he is a member. I might be wrong)

j) Asad ur Rahman Kidwai Oct 2007

k) Dinesh Shinnoy (He was mentioned in Ali Minai's post on 28/06/1999

So, this is a fair proprtion of "old hands" from this ALUP who have migrated over to that ALUP. It is possible that the following may join FB ALUP

Raj Kumar Pathria (Qais) 18/06/1998

Zoya SaaHibah Dec 2000

All these people, including your worth self, can bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to the FB ALUP Group. These are just might thoughts. You and others may disagree.

Naseer

On Saturday 13 January 2024 at 21:55:35 UTC, Amit Malhotra wrote:
> On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 2:59:31 PM UTC-5, Naseer wrote:
> Hello UVR Sahib,
>
> I wasn't able to open the second groups link as well. I'm glad that we can at least have the search ability in ALUP still alive! There's so much content here.
> I'm already a member of FB group, but that's just unreliable, the posts don't normally appear as you would want and FB is on the decline as a social media platform as well.
>
> Discord is another option. We can also create a discord server, everybody can join it and start posting there as well. Different channels can be created, thats' a great way to have the community alive. People will need a discord app on their phone or discord client on their desktops, it can also be used on the web (https://discord.com/). It is likely that this is one of the best ways today to create a community. Discord servers can be moderated easily, we can have admins, etc.
>
> Please do check the settings on your google group "alup", might be set to private only.
>
> Regards,
>
> Amit Malhotra
> > UVR SaaHib, aadaab.
> >
> > I am afraid I wasn't able to open the link to your Option 2. I don't know if others have faced the same difficulty.
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/g/alup
> >
> > Naseer

Amit SaaHib, aadaab.

I hope UVR SaaHib sees these posts.

As you know I only joined FB a day ago. I would like to ask you the following questions, if I may and one or two observations as well.

1. I am surprised to see that in its 9 year life, it only has 44 members to date. Having said this, I am not sure if this ALUP in its almost 24 year life period had many more participants.

2. Why is FB unreliable and what is it about the appearance of the posts that is not to your liking?

3. What more can Discord offer which FB ALUP doesn't?

4. FB ALUP must feel quite settled with most if not all the arising issues ironed out. 44 people already participate in it. Shifting these people to yet another ALUP may be asking too much of them and is likely to divide and hence weaken the overall purpose of enjoying Urdu poetry. I am fully aware this current ALUP has not been all that active for some time now but this is normal. People move on, leave or even pass away.

5. I personally would like to support UVR SaaHib's ALUP based on my obsevations in 4. Currently, if I am not mistaken, the following people from this ALUP are members of FB ALUP. The date next to the name is the date when they joined this group.

a) Ali Minai 05/09/1994

b) U V Ravindra 29/05/1996

c) Rajiv Chakravarti 16/12/1997

d) Padmanabhan Srinagesh 01/01/1998

e) Amit Malhotra 21/12/1999 (Your good self)

f) Irfan Abid July 2001

g) Sarwar Alam Raz Oct 2001

i) v (Ravi Sahib) Feb 2006 (? I think he is a member. I might be wrong)

j) Asad ur Rahman Kidwai Oct 2007

k) Dinesh Shinnoy (He was mentioned in Ali Minai's post on 28/06/1999)

So, this is a fair proprtion of "old hands" from this ALUP who have migrated over to that ALUP. It is possible that the following may join FB ALUP

Raj Kumar Pathria (Qais) 18/06/1998

Zoya SaaHibah Dec 2000

All these people, including your worthy self, can bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to the FB ALUP Group. These are just my thoughts. You and others may disagree.

Naseer

On Sunday 14 January 2024 at 00:54:45 UTC, Amit Malhotra wrote:
> I went ahead and setup a small server / community on Discord today. It's setup to be more like a forum.
> For those who don't know discord, it's a chat application that allows you to make communities. You will need to download a discord client (phone, laptop/desktop) or just use the discord web client to make an account and then use this link to join the community: https://discord.gg/GNRgXPxqsW
> > Discord is another option. We can also create a discord server, everybody can join it and start posting there as well. Different channels can be created, thats' a great way to have the community alive. People will need a discord app on their phone or discord client on their desktops, it can also be used on the web (https://discord.com/). It is likely that this is one of the best ways today to create a community. Discord servers can be moderated easily, we can have admins, etc.

Amit SaaHib, aadaab.

I hope UVR SaaHib sees these posts.

As you know I only joined FB a day ago. I would like to ask you the following questions, if I may and one or two observations as well.

1. I am surprised to see that in its 9 year life, it only has 44 members to date. Having said this, I am not sure if this ALUP in its almost 30 year life period had many more participants.

2. Why is FB unreliable and what is it about the appearance of the posts that is not to your liking?

3. What more can Discord offer which FB ALUP doesn't?

4. FB ALUP must feel quite settled with most if not all the arising issues ironed out. 44 people already participate in it. Shifting these people to yet another ALUP may be asking too much of them and is likely to divide and hence weaken the overall purpose of enjoying Urdu poetry. I am fully aware this current ALUP has not been all that active for some time now but this is normal. People move on, leave or even pass away.

5. I personally would like to support UVR SaaHib's ALUP based on my obsevations in 4. Currently, if I am not mistaken, the following people from this ALUP are members of FB ALUP. The date next to the name is the date when they joined this group.

a) Ali Minai 05/09/1994

b) U V Ravindra 29/05/1996

c) Rajiv Chakravarti 16/12/1997

d) Padmanabhan Srinagesh 01/01/1998

e) Amit Malhotra 21/12/1999 (Your good self)

f) Irfan Abid July 2001

g) Sarwar Alam Raz Oct 2001

i) v (Ravi Sahib) Feb 2006 (? I think he is a member. I might be wrong)

j) Asad ur Rahman Kidwai Oct 2007

k) Dinesh Shinnoy (He was mentioned in Ali Minai's post on 28/06/1999)

So, this is a fair proprtion of "old hands" from this ALUP who have migrated over to that ALUP. It is possible that the following may join FB ALUP

Raj Kumar Pathria (Qais) 18/06/1998

Zoya SaaHibah Dec 2000

All these people, including your worthy self, can bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to the FB ALUP Group. These are just my thoughts. You and others may disagree.

Naseer

Naseer sahib aadab!,

>
> 1. I am surprised to see that in its 9 year life, it only has 44 members to date. Having said this, I am not sure if this ALUP in its almost 30 year life period had many more participants.

Not sure if majority of ALUPers were on Facebook, and the availability of usenet groups at that time (like through Deja or through Google groups) was convenient enough. In addition, ST sahib had made mehfil-e-sukhan forums which were also used a lot. FB being more of a social media platform probably led to a lot of distractions. RMIM had migrated to facebook after deja closed and ALUP@FB was made similarly i assume. ALUP had a big following back when Deja was active if I recall correctly. :-)

>
> 2. Why is FB unreliable and what is it about the appearance of the posts that is not to your liking?

FB doesn't surface posts on a person's profile properly (unless you visit the community page directly all the time, which I normally don't, but then again, I'm not a big facebook user also). It could also be that because I don't use facebook regularly, I don't see the posts properly. Could simply be my personal experience with facebook, but mixed with ads, the posts showing on my timeline sometimes and not following proper timelines, it's not my favourite community application /platform.

> 3. What more can Discord offer which FB ALUP doesn't?
>
FB ALUP should be adequate for simple conversation, but not everybody wants to be on a social media platform. Discord is really meant to manage/moderate/create communities, offers a lot more in terms of functionality, extensibility, with forum like posting, threading, text chat as well as voice chat. I like discord because it's focused on communities rather than a social media platform providing community to promote usage. You join focused groups in discord that allow you to talk with like-minded people without being distracted. It's similar to the forums ST sahib had setup, the idea is same, it's a platform enabling communities. As far as usage is concerned, now that I have set it up, it's there to be used, tried out, and available as an alternative to Facebook.

> 4. FB ALUP must feel quite settled with most if not all the arising issues ironed out. 44 people already participate in it. Shifting these people to yet another ALUP may be asking too much of them and is likely to divide and hence weaken the overall purpose of enjoying Urdu poetry. I am fully aware this current ALUP has not been all that active for some time now but this is normal. People move on, leave or even pass away.

FB ALUP is definitely a great option. 44 people who are part of the group doesn't mean they participate in it. The posting mechanism is simpler to use, you post, there are replies on the post that can be nested to a certain level and I think with your arrival in the group, first time I have seen posts there in a few years. Ease of use might be useful, people who are new to facebook will be new to any alternative means that will be available as google stops the support for usenet grp posts.

>
> 5. I personally would like to support UVR SaaHib's ALUP based on my obsevations in 4. Currently, if I am not mistaken, the following people from this ALUP are members of FB ALUP. The date next to the name is the date when they joined this group.
>

100%, I'm with you, in fact I have been there for a while anyway. In fact, I lurk everywhere without actively participating, so not much change for me. I just presented another option and that discord server will keep running if people ever feel like joining it and finding out how it works.

> All these people, including your worthy self, can bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to the FB ALUP Group. These are just my thoughts. You and others may disagree.

I hope all of the ALUPers keep participating somewhere, if it's not here and it's on facebook, then that's where it is. :-)

Warm Regards,

Amit Malhotra

Dear Amit sahib, my first response was eaten up by ALUP bugs.

Anyway, thank you very much for creating the Discord server (https://discord.gg/GNRgXPxqsW).

I implore my friends to give it a shot. It has a steep learning curve initially but I am sure you are all tech savvy people and will figure it out.

With best regards,

Shoaib Tanvir
---
Do. Or do not. There is no try.

On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 8:47:45 AM UTC-8, Zoya wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 5:11:41 PM UTC-6, UVR wrote:
> > On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 2:41:01 PM UTC-8, B.G. M. wrote:
> > > اے نئے سال بتا تجھ میں نیا پن کیا ھے
> > > ہر طرف خَلق نے کيوں شور مچا رکھا ہے
> > >[....]
> > > #فیض_احمد_فیض
> Happy 2024 BGM sahib.
> > janaab BGM saahib, aadaab. aap ki aur deegar tamaam ALUPers ki Khidmat meN ba'ad ek taveel muddat ke aadaab pesh kar rahaa hooN. aap sab ko Happy New Year. ummeed hai yeh nayaa saal insaan kii zaat ke liye Khush haali le ke aaye, aur duniyaa meN jahaaN kaheeN bhii log ek doosre se haiwaanoN kaa saa sulooq kar rahe haiN wahaaN amn-o-aashti bahaal kare.
> Amen.
>
> aadaab UVR sahib. It is wonderful to see you back on Alup after a loooong gap. How I wish it were under different circumstances though!

You and me both, Zoya saahiba. Thank you for your warm response: it is so good to hear back from you.

> > itne barsoN ba'ad mere yahaaN waapas aane ki wajh k Google ke hukmraanoN kaa woh faisla hai jo unhoN ne USENET newsgroups (baa-shumool-e-ALUP) ke baare meN kiyaa hai. waise to aap sab hi ne Khabar paRhi hogi, magar jo ahbaab us se aagaah naheeN haiN, unki ittila' ke liye 'arz hai k Google ne kuchh yooN tay kiyaa hai, k --
> >
> > "Effective February 24, 2024, Google Groups will no longer support new Usenet content. Posting and subscribing will be disallowed, and new conetnt from Usenet peers will not appear. Viewing and searching of historical data will still be supported as it is done today."
> I have been really sad since I first read this announcement. One she'r that immediately came to my mind is by my favorite poet, Nasir Kazmi:
>
> kyuuN na rouuN tirii judaii meN
> din guzaare haiN tere paas bahut :(
>
> I have practically spent all of my adult life on Alup, have learned so much from the resident experts, made life long friends and had a lot of fun along the way. This is like home turf for me and the mere fact that Alup exists, and I can visit here anytime has always been reassuring. But eventually all good things must come to an end.

Nothing could be truer: change is the only constant, as they all say and we all know, much as one might wish otherwise. Another truth: growth is the only thing that helps accept change, perhaps counter it. And growth is more fun (like happiness and joy), and less difficult (like grief and sorrow) when it's shared. It is toward the goal of shared growth of all of us ALUPers that my suggestions in my earlier post were made.

> > ya'ani jo bhi ALUPers is waqt ba-zari'a-e-Google yahaaN posts karte aur paRhte aaye haiN un sab ko koi aur rasta iKhtiyaar karna paRega. is silsile meN chand soorateN saamne aati haiN, aap tamaam ahbaab se meraa sawaal hai k aap logoN ne is baare meN kuchh sochaa hai?
> I have been preparing myself for the impending gloom and doom and am really grateful that you have listed some options to keep the group alive. I personally am not technically savvy enough to suggest any alternate avenues.
> > jo raste is moR se raste jaate haiN, mere Khayaal se kuchh yooN hai --
> >
> > 1.sab dostaan-e-ALUP, alt.language.urdu.poetry USENET newsgroup par hi post karte/paRhte raheN, aur iske liye koi aur USENET server aur client ist'emaal kareN. agar aap kaa yeh faisala hai, to Feb 24 ke ba'ad aap ne kisii server+client kaa soch rakha hai? agar haaN, to kaun se server/client kaa?
>
> > Advantage: the "home" (group) remains the same, a new "door" (new access method) has to be used.
> > Disadvantage: I don't know of any free alternatives to access USENET, but many ISPs do provide access, so you may already be paying for it and having access. Setting up your own newsgroups reader/poster software may be an easy task for some, and not so easy at all for others.
> * Is Option 1 kind of like 'mehfil-e-sukhan' that our friend Shoaib Tanvir sahib had created a while back? It did great for a few years, but ST could not keep up with the commitment required to run such a group. It takes up lot of time, energy, and technical know-how. I am not sure who amongst us can take on a task like that.
> > 2. Google groups par koi nayaa maqaam aik naye group ki shakl meN qaa'im kiyaa jaaye -- yahaaN aane waale tamaam readers/posters/lurkers/... wahaaN kaa ruKh kareN. agar haaN to 15 saal qabl ek group Khaaksaar ne 2009 meN banaayaa thaa, shaayad isi din ke dhaRke se(!!!); chaheN to https://groups.google.com/g/alup par jaa kar subscribe kar leN.
>
> > Advantage: the familiar Google groups front end. Everyone posting here (on *this* ALUP) most likely already has an account using which they can subscribe and continue the discussions on *THAT* alup.
> > Disadvantage: who knows how long Google will let the fun continue?
> * I really like Option 2. As you mention, this group already exists, we just have to detour to it.
> I am unable to open the link though, get an error message. Will you please look into it and guide me?

First, please allow me to apologize profusely for not checking whether the group (alup at googlegroups dot com) was properly visible or not before advertising it here. Naseer saahib drew my attention to it via Facebook (more on that below), and I discovered that the settings were locked down too tightly resulting in the issue you (and he) encountered. I have opened it up now and you should be able to find it if you can try again. The direct URL is https://groups.google.com SLASH g SLASH alup -- replace SLASH with a forward-slash (/) and remove the whitespaces before and after the / to generate the actual URL. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I'm doing it this way to avoid bots and spammers from subscribing en masse.

> > 3. Facebook, WhatsApp yaa aur kisi naye medium kaa ruKh kareN.
> > Facebook par bhi ek ALUP group hai jise aap https://www.facebook.com/groups/635636506554920/?ref=share_group_link par dekh sakte haiN (it has 43 members, is VERY low traffic; in fact, I don't recall seeing any posts/discussions in the last several months).
> >
> > Advantage: take ALUP discussions into the 21st century. Most of us perhaps already use Facebook, WhatsApp etc.
> > Disadvantage: there is actually no way to do meaningful discussions on these media. I know, because I'm part of a few other groups (as I'm sure all of us are -- or a majority of us, at any rate) on both FB and WA. Still, the FB group is there already in case anyone wants to join.
> * Personally, I have never been much of a FB fan and am not active on it. Don't have the patience to deal with group messages, mostly of no interest to me me
> usually self indulgences by individuals. Also, I liked the relative anonymity that Usenet groups provided.
> However, I will consider Option 3 as a last resort. After all, this FB group already exists and we know if the posts mirror Alup, the quality will be maintained.
> > aap logoN kaa kyaa Khayaal hai? Google to USENET alt.language.urdu.poetry ka "qatl" karega. badle meN aap kyaa karnaa pasand kareNge?
> >
> > -UVR.
> Let us what the other members say.
>
> Thanks UVR sahib, for trying to put a ventilator on Alup's deathbed.
>
> It is not goodbye friends, not just yet.
>
> __________Zoya

It can't be goodbye! Not now, not (if we can help it) for a long time. phir ventilators ne to bahut se COVID ke mareezon ko tak maut ke muNh se waapas kheNch liyaa thaa, Zoya saahiba. itni koshish to yahaaN bhi banti hai.

-UVR.

On Sunday, January 14, 2024 at 8:37:28 AM UTC-8, Amit Malhotra wrote:
> Naseer sahib aadab!,
> >
> > 1. I am surprised to see that in its 9 year life, it only has 44 members to date. Having said this, I am not sure if this ALUP in its almost 30 year life period had many more participants.
> Not sure if majority of ALUPers were on Facebook, and the availability of usenet groups at that time (like through Deja or through Google groups) was convenient enough. In addition, ST sahib had made mehfil-e-sukhan forums which were also used a lot. FB being more of a social media platform probably led to a lot of distractions. RMIM had migrated to facebook after deja closed and ALUP@FB was made similarly i assume. ALUP had a big following back when Deja was active if I recall correctly. :-)
> >
> > 2. Why is FB unreliable and what is it about the appearance of the posts that is not to your liking?
> FB doesn't surface posts on a person's profile properly (unless you visit the community page directly all the time, which I normally don't, but then again, I'm not a big facebook user also). It could also be that because I don't use facebook regularly, I don't see the posts properly. Could simply be my personal experience with facebook, but mixed with ads, the posts showing on my timeline sometimes and not following proper timelines, it's not my favourite community application /platform.
> > 3. What more can Discord offer which FB ALUP doesn't?
> >
> FB ALUP should be adequate for simple conversation, but not everybody wants to be on a social media platform. Discord is really meant to manage/moderate/create communities, offers a lot more in terms of functionality, extensibility, with forum like posting, threading, text chat as well as voice chat. I like discord because it's focused on communities rather than a social media platform providing community to promote usage. You join focused groups in discord that allow you to talk with like-minded people without being distracted. It's similar to the forums ST sahib had setup, the idea is same, it's a platform enabling communities. As far as usage is concerned, now that I have set it up, it's there to be used, tried out, and available as an alternative to Facebook.
> > 4. FB ALUP must feel quite settled with most if not all the arising issues ironed out. 44 people already participate in it. Shifting these people to yet another ALUP may be asking too much of them and is likely to divide and hence weaken the overall purpose of enjoying Urdu poetry. I am fully aware this current ALUP has not been all that active for some time now but this is normal. People move on, leave or even pass away.
> FB ALUP is definitely a great option. 44 people who are part of the group doesn't mean they participate in it. The posting mechanism is simpler to use, you post, there are replies on the post that can be nested to a certain level and I think with your arrival in the group, first time I have seen posts there in a few years. Ease of use might be useful, people who are new to facebook will be new to any alternative means that will be available as google stops the support for usenet grp posts.
> >
> > 5. I personally would like to support UVR SaaHib's ALUP based on my obsevations in 4. Currently, if I am not mistaken, the following people from this ALUP are members of FB ALUP. The date next to the name is the date when they joined this group.
> >
> 100%, I'm with you, in fact I have been there for a while anyway. In fact, I lurk everywhere without actively participating, so not much change for me. I just presented another option and that discord server will keep running if people ever feel like joining it and finding out how it works.
> > All these people, including your worthy self, can bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to the FB ALUP Group. These are just my thoughts. You and others may disagree.
> I hope all of the ALUPers keep participating somewhere, if it's not here and it's on facebook, then that's where it is. :-)
>
> Warm Regards,
>
> Amit Malhotra

Amit aur Naseer saahibaan, aadaab 'arz hai.

maiN aap donoN ko ek hi post meN muKhaatib kar rahaa hooN, kyoN ki is mein chand aisi baateN haiN jo aap donoN ahbaab ke mandarja baala Khutoot ke jawaab meN haiN. aur phir yeh bhi k yeh baateN tamaam dostaan-e-ALUP ke liye bhi qaabil-e-Ghaur-o-fikr hoNgi, to inheN ek hi jagah darj karna munaasib hogaa.

1. Google groups par (non-Usenet) alup -- jise https://groups.google.com/ g / alup (remove whitespaces to visit) par dekha jaa saktaa hai -- us ke muta'alliq aap saahibaan ko pesh aayi diqqatoN aur mushkilaat ke liye maiN zimmeh.daar hooN aur ma'azirat Khwaah bhi. jaisaa maiN ne upar Zoya saahiba ki post pe likhe apne jawaab meN 'arz kiya hai, kuchh group settings ke Theek na hone ki wajh se aap log mazkoora group ko DhooNDhne aur use subscribe karne se qaasir rahe. ab ek baar phir koshish kar leN -- the settings should be open enough to allow that now.

2. FB par jo ALUP group banaaya gayaa hai, us ke aap donoN hi member haiN, mere Khayaal meN aap donoN ko us ke ist'emaal meN kisi Khaar pareshaani se guzarna naheeN paRaa hai. agar maiN Ghalati par hooN, to mujhe zaroor Khabar kareN. I will try to fix that ASAP.

3. Discord -- this is a platform I have so far stayed away from, while I am aware of its existence, I have not had a chance to learn/use it for any reason whatsoever. Honestly, between Facebook (where I spend *way too much* time!), Slack (where I need to be for other reasons), email (work and personal), WhatsApp (personal), SMS/Text/video calls (personal) and things like Skype, Zoom and Google meet (work and personal), I really haven't had a need to investigate more interpersonal interaction software solutions, and no motivation to look into them even to just educate myself. That said, if the collective decision of this group is to move to the Discord server you've set up, I will gladly follow.

4. Why are there only 44 members of the ALUP @ FB group?
The reason is that it was never advertised with any level of deliberate intent or seriousness. (For that matter, alup @ googlegroups.com was also not advertised and it has exactly ZERO members other than me!) These alternatives were created at a time in the past when we had suddenly started to see a lot of spam messages showing up on Google Usenet groups, and I thought it might be useful to have an alternative available if at all ALUPers wished to voluntarily move elsewhere. However, at no time was there a need as there is now (Google didn't decide to "kill" of their Usenet groups interface..)

5. The remainder of this message is long (I hope ALUPers will excuse me for my verbosity), but I felt it necessary to post this to respond to some points that have been made since my initial post in this thread. I am delighted to see that a bit of discussion has occurred (as I had hopefully expected) between the alup @ googlegroups alternative ("option 2" in my note) and ALUP at Facebook ("option 3"). I believe that listing a few more pros and cons of the two is in order here. Of course these are as I see them.

alup @ googlegroups:

Advantages:
1. Familiar interface, everyone who has been on Usenet ALUP knows how to get to Google Groups and interact there.
2. The same accounts can be used to read/post ensuring continuation of the same level (such as it might have been) of privacy, and anonymity.
3. Makes possible fully-featured threaded discussions on topics, just as we have on Usenet. This is a big one for me personally.
4. Google search capabilities can be utilized for looking up and retrieving old messages many many years after the fact.

Disadvantages:
1. NOT mobile-friendly. Very laptop/desktop-centric. This is a big one for me personally.
The full Google groups reading and posting experience is only available via the "desktop site" and is extremely unfriendly to phone or tablet devices. Over the ast several years, primary online engagement has moved to handheld devices, and anything that's "desktop-only" is liable to limit engagement..

2. Primarily "text-only". This is a big one for me personally too.
I increasingly find people sending, receiving, and engaging with more modern media like photos, videos, files, PDFs, and other non-text media. For example, sharing videos of sh'ora reciting their own verse. These are not easy to share or disseminate over the Google groups interface. Some alternatives ARE available -- for example, you can opt to receive all group messages in your inbox as emails, and then you can send those non-text media out using your email client. Readers can also do the same (receive all posts as emails). Personally, I don't like to receive these things as email, because I want to keep these things separate.

ALUP group on Facebook:

Advantages:
1. Fully multimedia capable -- if you like text-only, you can do that, if you want to share other things, you can do that too. A big one for me.
2. Very mobile-friendly: phone, tablet, laptop, desktop, ... use any device you like, and you'll get the same features. Another big one for me.
3. A number of us are already on that group.
4. (Facebook gets a bad rap, but) It's my experience that it's possible to set up your account so that you maintain the same level of anonymity as you can maintain at any other online site these days.

Disadvantages:
1. Facebook as a medium is highly polarizing.
People have strong feelings about using Facebook -- they either like it, or hate it. While a lot of us reading this may have FB accounts already, a number of us may be highly disinclined to create an account or to use their account which they already have to interact with ALUPers (e.g., they would like to only use it to contact their close friends and family).

UVR sahib,

quick responses:
1. Alternative google group now works, I assume it's moderated and you accepted my join application there.
2. FB - it works fine IMHO. Easy to use as I said earlier, I'll keep a better eye on it from here on.
3. Discord: The server is setup, feel free to give it a shot, whoever wants to. ST sahib is there. It's really not that complicated, very similar to Slack if you are used to slack. "Server" terminology is equivalent to "Workspace" terminology in Slack and then you have channels just like Slack and you can integrate all kind of apps in there. Has more of a community feel as you can do threading / forum post style channels, or just general chat channels. It's picked up a lot more as it doesn't have the same limitation as Slack has for free users. I use Slack extensively for work, so it was very easy to get on to Discord as almost all concepts are similar for end-users, differences are for admins, but didn't take me long to figure it out either. I totally hear you about "yet another chat platform!".

If I can help people make a choice:
FB > google group! So please select that. Join facebook if you aren't active, no need to do much except visit the group pages and you can stay away from whatever gives FB a bad name. Google groups are poor for community enablements. Facebook still does a decent job.

p.s. Discord is available as a backup, has good support for threaded / forum type of conversations and even live chat like Slack does and good integrations with webhooks, apps, etc. Feel free to join it, you will find me and Shoaib sahib there for sure now! Has good formatting support (markdown etc)..

Warm Regards,

Amit Malhotra

On Sunday 14 January 2024 at 21:00:35 UTC, Amit Malhotra wrote:
> UVR sahib,
>
> quick responses:
> 1. Alternative google group now works, I assume it's moderated and you accepted my join application there.
> 2. FB - it works fine IMHO. Easy to use as I said earlier, I'll keep a better eye on it from here on.
> 3. Discord: The server is setup, feel free to give it a shot, whoever wants to. ST sahib is there. It's really not that complicated, very similar to Slack if you are used to slack. "Server" terminology is equivalent to "Workspace" terminology in Slack and then you have channels just like Slack and you can integrate all kind of apps in there. Has more of a community feel as you can do threading / forum post style channels, or just general chat channels. It's picked up a lot more as it doesn't have the same limitation as Slack has for free users. I use Slack extensively for work, so it was very easy to get on to Discord as almost all concepts are similar for end-users, differences are for admins, but didn't take me long to figure it out either. I totally hear you about "yet another chat platform!".
>
>
> If I can help people make a choice:
> FB > google group! So please select that. Join facebook if you aren't active, no need to do much except visit the group pages and you can stay away from whatever gives FB a bad name. Google groups are poor for community enablements. Facebook still does a decent job.
>
> p.s. Discord is available as a backup, has good support for threaded / forum type of conversations and even live chat like Slack does and good integrations with webhooks, apps, etc. Feel free to join it, you will find me and Shoaib sahib there for sure now! Has good formatting support (markdown etc).
>
> Warm Regards,
>
> Amit Malhotra
UVR and Amit SaaHibaan,

I have joined ALUP - Google Groups, FB- ALUP and Discord. Are there any other Clubs and Pubs that I should join? :-)

Naseer

On Sunday 14 January 2024 at 22:13:41 UTC, Naseer wrote:
> On Sunday 14 January 2024 at 21:00:35 UTC, Amit Malhotra wrote:
> > UVR sahib,
> >
> > quick responses:
> > 1. Alternative google group now works, I assume it's moderated and you accepted my join application there.
> > 2. FB - it works fine IMHO. Easy to use as I said earlier, I'll keep a better eye on it from here on.
> > 3. Discord: The server is setup, feel free to give it a shot, whoever wants to. ST sahib is there. It's really not that complicated, very similar to Slack if you are used to slack. "Server" terminology is equivalent to "Workspace" terminology in Slack and then you have channels just like Slack and you can integrate all kind of apps in there. Has more of a community feel as you can do threading / forum post style channels, or just general chat channels. It's picked up a lot more as it doesn't have the same limitation as Slack has for free users. I use Slack extensively for work, so it was very easy to get on to Discord as almost all concepts are similar for end-users, differences are for admins, but didn't take me long to figure it out either. I totally hear you about "yet another chat platform!".
> >
> >
> > If I can help people make a choice:
> > FB > google group! So please select that. Join facebook if you aren't active, no need to do much except visit the group pages and you can stay away from whatever gives FB a bad name. Google groups are poor for community enablements. Facebook still does a decent job.
> >
> > p.s. Discord is available as a backup, has good support for threaded / forum type of conversations and even live chat like Slack does and good integrations with webhooks, apps, etc. Feel free to join it, you will find me and Shoaib sahib there for sure now! Has good formatting support (markdown etc).
> >
> > Warm Regards,
> >
> > Amit Malhotra
> UVR and Amit SaaHibaan,
>
> I have joined ALUP - Google Groups, FB- ALUP and Discord. Are there any other Clubs and Pubs that I should join? :-)
>
> Naseer

I've read somewhere that when a person is dying, just before death, s/he begins to show signs of recovery. The increase in activity in ALUP seems to point towards the truth behind this phenomenon! :-) (I know it is sad that this ALUP will be no more after 22/02/2024 but "Out of the ashes grow the roses of success"! Naseer

> I've read somewhere that when a person is dying, just before death, s/he begins to show signs of recovery. The increase in activity in ALUP seems to point towards the truth behind this phenomenon! :-) (I know it is sad that this ALUP will be no more after 22/02/2024 but "Out of the ashes grow the roses of success"! Naseer

I disagree that ALUP is dying or will be no more. While the name ALUP (alt..language.urdu.poetry) comes from usenet, ALUP is not the medium that was used for people to talk about this amazing art, but it's the people that made up that usenet community and then the google group community. Changing the medium doesn't mean ALUP will be no more :-) - finding a new "aDDaa", that's it, and a change in scenery might add some life to the group as well!

Warm Regards

Amit Malhotra

On Monday, January 15, 2024 at 6:19:16 PM UTC-5, Amit Malhotra wrote:

> I disagree that ALUP is dying or will be no more. While the name ALUP (alt.language.urdu.poetry) comes from usenet, ALUP is not the medium that was used for people to talk about this amazing art, but it's the people that made up that usenet community and then the google group community. Changing the medium doesn't mean ALUP will be no more :-) - finding a new "aDDaa", that's it, and a change in scenery might add some life to the group as well!
>
> Warm Regards
>
> Amit Malhotra

Very well put Amit sahib. As the British Sheikh said, what's in a name?

The body may weaken, get disease, even die but the soul lives on. And sometimes the patient undergoes rejuvenation defying the dark apprehensions.

With best regards,

Shoaib Tanvir
---
Do. Or do not. There is no try.

Hello dear friends,

Choices! I like that, feel much better already, the gloom is lifting. Thank you gentlemen. :-)

Amit, I have already joined the 'Discord Alup'. I am new to that format, may get into some initiation hiccups, hopefully will be able to figure out the mechanics soon.

UVR sahib, I have sent a request to join the 'other' Google Alup, Option 2 in your initial post in this thread. I can view it already, will post there once an official member.

I am planning to join the FB Alup also. I had created an FB account a while back, never used it. I was trying to reactivate it yesterday, and guess what. My niece sent me a text today asking if I had sent her a friend request on FB! I was like 'what'??? Of course I did not! Maybe my never used FB account has been compromised? I have to figure out what is going on before doing anything further.

Thanks to the combined efforts of Alup fans, it seems to be getting a new lease of life. Otherwise, in my mind I could hear Alup singing this Qateel Shifai she'r:

"aakhrii hichkii tire zaanuuN pe aaye
maut bhii maiN sha'iraanaa chaahtaa huuN!"

_________Zoya

P.S. In case anyone is wondering why I say Alup and not ALUP, it is because I have been using it as a verb also. I mean, all of us have been 'aluping' for a long while now. If Google and Xerox can be verbs, why not our friend Alup? Agree? :)

On Tuesday 16 January 2024 at 05:19:56 UTC, Zoya wrote:
> Hello dear friends,
>
> Choices! I like that, feel much better already, the gloom is lifting. Thank you gentlemen. :-)
>
> Amit, I have already joined the 'Discord Alup'. I am new to that format, may get into some initiation hiccups, hopefully will be able to figure out the mechanics soon.
>
> UVR sahib, I have sent a request to join the 'other' Google Alup, Option 2 in your initial post in this thread. I can view it already, will post there once an official member.
>
> I am planning to join the FB Alup also. I had created an FB account a while back, never used it. I was trying to reactivate it yesterday, and guess what. My niece sent me a text today asking if I had sent her a friend request on FB! I was like 'what'??? Of course I did not! Maybe my never used FB account has been compromised? I have to figure out what is going on before doing anything further.
>
> Thanks to the combined efforts of Alup fans, it seems to be getting a new lease of life. Otherwise, in my mind I could hear Alup singing this Qateel Shifai she'r:
>
> "aakhrii hichkii tire zaanuuN pe aaye
> maut bhii maiN sha'iraanaa chaahtaa huuN!"
>
> _________Zoya
>
> P.S. In case anyone is wondering why I say Alup and not ALUP, it is because I have been using it as a verb also. I mean, all of us have been 'aluping' for a long while now. If Google and Xerox can be verbs, why not our friend Alup? Agree? :)
Zoya SaaHibah, aadaab.

Like you, I've also joined Discord and Option 2. On Option 2, I've posted one post post in response to Tanvir Shuaib SaaHib but I don't relly know where I am in Discord. As for FB ALUP, I became a member of FB fairly recently and joined my school FB, aiming to locate some old friends and "parda-nishiiN" :-) My suggestion would be that you find out which person has sent a friend request to your niece. Once you see the profile of that person you will know if it is you or not. If it is you and the account has been compromised, you should be able to delete that account and start a new one. May be other friends can add to what I've said. If you are in touch with Raj Kumar SaaHib, please twist his arm (very gently) and maneuver him towards these new possibilities. Best Regards, Naseer

On Tuesday 16 January 2024 at 04:30:12 UTC, Shoaib Tanvir wrote:
> On Monday, January 15, 2024 at 6:19:16 PM UTC-5, Amit Malhotra wrote:
>
> > I disagree that ALUP is dying or will be no more. While the name ALUP (alt.language.urdu.poetry) comes from usenet, ALUP is not the medium that was used for people to talk about this amazing art, but it's the people that made up that usenet community and then the google group community. Changing the medium doesn't mean ALUP will be no more :-) - finding a new "aDDaa", that's it, and a change in scenery might add some life to the group as well!
> >
> > Warm Regards
> >
> > Amit Malhotra
> Very well put Amit sahib. As the British Sheikh said, what's in a name?
>
> The body may weaken, get disease, even die but the soul lives on. And sometimes the patient undergoes rejuvenation defying the dark apprehensions.
> With best regards,
>
> Shoaib Tanvir
> ---
> Do. Or do not. There is no try.
Amit and Shoaib SaaHibaan,

Thank you for your lofty thoughts but with due respect to both of you, more recently this group has been kept going, almost single handedly, by Zoya SaaHiba. The rest of us, for whatever reason, were no where to be seen. Best Wishes, Naseer

On Tuesday 16 January 2024 at 05:19:56 UTC, Zoya wrote:
> Hello dear friends,

>
> "aakhrii hichkii tire zaanuuN pe aaye
> maut bhii maiN sha'iraanaa chaahtaa huuN!"
>
> _________Zoya

"zaanuu", Zoya SaaHibah. But if you have a cold, then please ignore this message. :-)

Naseer

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 3:22:06 AM UTC-6, Naseer wrote:

> Thank you for your lofty thoughts but with due respect to both of you, more recently this group has been kept going, almost single handedly, by Zoya SaaHiba. The rest of us, for whatever reason, were no where to be seen. Best Wishes, Naseer

Thanks Naseer sahib, you are being too generous here. In fact, I should be returning the compliment, often it is you who has been keeping Alup alive singlehandedly. And Prof RK has always been the real 'anchor'. But of course, the more the merrier!
As Amit said, it is great relief that Alup archives will be preserved and remain searchable. It would have been a huge loss otherwise, irrevocable.

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 7:55:32 AM UTC-6, Naseer wrote:

> "zaanuu", Zoya SaaHibah. But if you have a cold, then please ignore this message. :-)
>
> Naseer

Naseer sahib, thanks for pointing out this error. I could blame it on the first hard freeze of the season that we are dealing with down here this week, but I will own this. I remember this ghazal in Jagjit Singh's voice and have always been unsure of the nuun ghuna at the end. In my defense, I will say that last night right before posting, I double checked the she'r in Rekhta exactly for this reason. And they have a nuun ghuna! Dah!!
Not an excuse for me though. This is one of the reasons I love Alup so much, no errors are allowed here, not in spelling, grammar, or meter. None. All this has contributed so much over the years towards my growth in the field of Urdu poetry.

Thanks again.

A perpetual student,
_________Zoya

On Tuesday 16 January 2024 at 16:23:55 UTC, Zoya wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 7:55:32 AM UTC-6, Naseer wrote:
>
> > "zaanuu", Zoya SaaHibah. But if you have a cold, then please ignore this message. :-)
> >
> > Naseer
> Naseer sahib, thanks for pointing out this error. I could blame it on the first hard freeze of the season that we are dealing with down here this week, but I will own this. I remember this ghazal in Jagjit Singh's voice and have always been unsure of the nuun ghuna at the end. In my defense, I will say that last night right before posting, I double checked the she'r in Rekhta exactly for this reason. And they have a nuun ghuna! Dah!!
> Not an excuse for me though. This is one of the reasons I love Alup so much, no errors are allowed here, not in spelling, grammar, or meter. None. All this has contributed so much over the years towards my growth in the field of Urdu poetry.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> A perpetual student,
> _________Zoya

Zoya SaaHibah aadaab. I do not find Rekhta a reliable source. Even with this word, for the same shi3r, it has both "zaanuu" and "zaanuuN". آخری ہچکی ترے زانو پہ آئے

موت بھی میں شاعرانہ چاہتا ہوں آخری ہچکی ترے زانوں پہ آئے

موت بھی میں شاعرانہ چاہتا ہوں

On Tuesday, January 16, 2024 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-6, Naseer wrote:

> Zoya SaaHibah aadaab. I do not find Rekhta a reliable source. Even with this word, for the same shi3r, it has both "zaanuu" and "zaanuuN".

Oh dear. In future I should double-double check within Rekhta, or perhaps stick with more reliable sources, e.g. Platts.