One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for teacher;
the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and taught
English there.)

In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86 (who
has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched) has been
quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China and the
treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his latest episode,
he describes his journey from being an ardent admirer of China (before
he ever went to China) to a foe of China who literally had to flee to
keep from being arrested by Chairman Xi's goons. It's fascinated to
see snippets from the first videos he ever did, before he'd ever set
foot in China, that defend China and hear how mortified he is now by
his utter naivete:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]

He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
reality....

--
Rhino

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for teacher;
>the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and taught
>English there.)
>
>In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86 (who
>has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched) has been
>quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China and the
>treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his latest episode,
>he describes his journey from being an ardent admirer of China (before
>he ever went to China) to a foe of China who literally had to flee to
>keep from being arrested by Chairman Xi's goons. It's fascinated to
>see snippets from the first videos he ever did, before he'd ever set
>foot in China, that defend China and hear how mortified he is now by
>his utter naivete:

To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
building new projects to look good to the national government. The
problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>
>He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
>long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
>North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
>realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
>other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
>that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
>beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
>reality....

I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
women and children.

Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
> One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
> China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for teacher;
> the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and taught
> English there.)
>
> In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86 (who
> has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched) has been
> quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China and the
> treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his latest episode,
> he describes his journey from being an ardent admirer of China (before
> he ever went to China) to a foe of China who literally had to flee to
> keep from being arrested by Chairman Xi's goons. It's fascinated to
> see snippets from the first videos he ever did, before he'd ever set
> foot in China, that defend China and hear how mortified he is now by
> his utter naivete:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>
> He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
> long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
> North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
> realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
> other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
> that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
> beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
> reality....
>
>

First, google hit

Matthew Tye
Matthew Tye (born December 27, 1986), also known as Laowhy86 or C-Milk, is
an American YouTuber, political commentator, travel and vlogger. He is a
commentator about political and social issues in China.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
Matthew Tye - Wikipedia

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
> >One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
> >China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
> >teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
> >taught English there.)
> >
> >In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
> >(who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
> >has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
> >and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
> >latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
> >admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
> >who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
> >Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
> >ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
> >hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>
>
> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
>
It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
materials were.

> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
> >
> >He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
> >long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
> >North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
> >realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
> >other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
> >that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
> >beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
> >reality....
>
> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
> women and children.

London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.

--
Rhino

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 01:58:01 -0700
anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:

> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
> > One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
> > China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
> > teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
> > taught English there.)
> >
> > In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
> > (who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
> > has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
> > and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
> > latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
> > admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
> > who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
> > Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos
> > he ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China
> > and hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
> >
> > He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all
> > day long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say,
> > Hamas or North Korea are role models for the entire world.
> > Laowhy86's realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me
> > hope that the other "activists" we hear from all the time also have
> > the experiences that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes
> > they are human beings, not just programmed bots who have no
> > capacity to learn from reality....
> >
> >
>
> First, google hit
>
> Matthew Tye
> Matthew Tye (born December 27, 1986), also known as Laowhy86 or
> C-Milk, is an American YouTuber, political commentator, travel and
> vlogger. He is a commentator about political and social issues in
> China. https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
> Matthew Tye - Wikipedia
>

Well done; you get your Gold detective shield ;-)

I never tried to research the guy, I just watched the videos and never
saw him mention his real name or explain why he wasn't stating his
name. I was mildly curious about it but just assumed he was eager to
protect his privacy and let it ride.

--
Rhino

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:44:55 -0400, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
>shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>
>> >One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>> >China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
>> >teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
>> >taught English there.)
>> >
>> >In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
>> >(who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
>> >has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
>> >and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
>> >latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
>> >admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
>> >who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
>> >Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
>> >ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
>> >hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>>
>>
>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
>>
>It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
>poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
>finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
>construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
>astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
>materials were.
>
>> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>> >
>> >He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
>> >long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
>> >North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
>> >realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
>> >other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
>> >that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
>> >beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
>> >reality....
>>
>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
>> women and children.
>
>London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
>Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
>demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
>media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
>stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
>the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
>response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.

To be fair the Israeli air strikes are very likely killing innocent
civilians no matter what the intent of the Israelis were. So there's
fair reason to complain about the actions of Hamas AND the Israeli
military.

I can't get upset about people coming together to ask for support for
Palestine as it's clear that there are many people in the Gaza strip
who aren't involved in attacking Israel. They end up bearing the brunt
of the Israel attacks on Hamas because Hamas hides among the
civilians. I don't know what the average Palestinian can do as most
aren't in a position to leave and they can't throw out the heavily
armed Hamas.

Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 01:58:01 -0700
> anim8rfsk <anim8rfsk@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>> One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>>> China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
>>> teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
>>> taught English there.)
>>>
>>> In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
>>> (who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
>>> has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
>>> and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
>>> latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
>>> admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
>>> who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
>>> Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos
>>> he ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China
>>> and hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>>>
>>> He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all
>>> day long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say,
>>> Hamas or North Korea are role models for the entire world.
>>> Laowhy86's realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me
>>> hope that the other "activists" we hear from all the time also have
>>> the experiences that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes
>>> they are human beings, not just programmed bots who have no
>>> capacity to learn from reality....
>>>
>>>
>>
>> First, google hit
>>
>> Matthew Tye
>> Matthew Tye (born December 27, 1986), also known as Laowhy86 or
>> C-Milk, is an American YouTuber, political commentator, travel and
>> vlogger. He is a commentator about political and social issues in
>> China. https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki
>> Matthew Tye - Wikipedia
>>
>
> Well done; you get your Gold detective shield ;-)
>
> I never tried to research the guy, I just watched the videos and never
> saw him mention his real name or explain why he wasn't stating his
> name. I was mildly curious about it but just assumed he was eager to
> protect his privacy and let it ride.
>
>

Either he wanted the publicity or somebody wanted it for him.

--
The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.

On 10/22/23 10:34 AM, shawn wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:44:55 -0400, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>>>> China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
>>>> teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
>>>> taught English there.)
>>>>
>>>> In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
>>>> (who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
>>>> has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
>>>> and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
>>>> latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
>>>> admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
>>>> who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
>>>> Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
>>>> ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
>>>> hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>>>
>>>
>>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
>>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
>>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
>>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
>>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
>>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
>>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
>>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
>>>
>> It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
>> poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
>> finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
>> construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
>> astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
>> materials were.
>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>>>>
>>>> He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
>>>> long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
>>>> North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
>>>> realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
>>>> other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
>>>> that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
>>>> beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
>>>> reality....
>>>
>>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
>>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
>>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
>>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
>>> women and children.
>>
>> London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
>> Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
>> demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
>> media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
>> stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
>> the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
>> response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.
>
> To be fair the Israeli air strikes are very likely killing innocent
> civilians no matter what the intent of the Israelis were. So there's
> fair reason to complain about the actions of Hamas AND the Israeli
> military.
>
> I can't get upset about people coming together to ask for support for
> Palestine as it's clear that there are many people in the Gaza strip
> who aren't involved in attacking Israel. They end up bearing the brunt
> of the Israel attacks on Hamas because Hamas hides among the
> civilians. I don't know what the average Palestinian can do as most
> aren't in a position to leave and they can't throw out the heavily
> armed Hamas.
>

Hamas deliberately puts their people in harm's way. This is why you
don't elect a terrorist organization in the first place. The die is
cast. They had more than a couple of chances to have their 2 state
solution, and turned them all down, one after another. Now, it's too late.

Look at what we did after 9-11. We attacked a country that had nothing
to do with it - so everybody who died there was a victim of the USA.
And the Israelis who voted for Bibi are to blame as well.

Bottom line is, Hamas has to go. One way, or the other, Israel will
never allow them to be able to do this again. And we'd do the same thing.

--
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind." - OC
Bible 25B.G.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek8kap93bmk0q5w/D%20U%20N%20E%20Part%20II.jpg?dl=0

Gracie, age 6.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0es3xolxka455iw/BetterThingsToDo.jpg?dl=0

On 10/22/23 10:34 AM, shawn wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:44:55 -0400, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>>>> China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
>>>> teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
>>>> taught English there.)
>>>>
>>>> In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
>>>> (who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
>>>> has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
>>>> and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
>>>> latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
>>>> admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
>>>> who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
>>>> Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
>>>> ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
>>>> hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>>>
>>>
>>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
>>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
>>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
>>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
>>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
>>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
>>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
>>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
>>>
>> It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
>> poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
>> finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
>> construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
>> astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
>> materials were.
>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>>>>
>>>> He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
>>>> long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
>>>> North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
>>>> realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
>>>> other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
>>>> that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
>>>> beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
>>>> reality....
>>>
>>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
>>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
>>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
>>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
>>> women and children.
>>
>> London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
>> Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
>> demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
>> media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
>> stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
>> the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
>> response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.
>
> To be fair the Israeli air strikes are very likely killing innocent
> civilians no matter what the intent of the Israelis were. So there's
> fair reason to complain about the actions of Hamas AND the Israeli
> military.
>
> I can't get upset about people coming together to ask for support for
> Palestine as it's clear that there are many people in the Gaza strip
> who aren't involved in attacking Israel. They end up bearing the brunt
> of the Israel attacks on Hamas because Hamas hides among the
> civilians. I don't know what the average Palestinian can do as most
> aren't in a position to leave and they can't throw out the heavily
> armed Hamas.
>

From what I understand, there are more than a couple of groups holding
hostages. And that includes a lot in the hands of ordinary Gazan families.

Ordinary citizens went in after Hamas and took their own hostages.
Seems like a good idea if they gave them back ASAP. Those people should
bear the brunt of the attack along with Hamas.

--
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind." - OC
Bible 25B.G.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek8kap93bmk0q5w/D%20U%20N%20E%20Part%20II.jpg?dl=0

Gracie, age 6.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0es3xolxka455iw/BetterThingsToDo.jpg?dl=0

On Saturday, 21 October 2023 at 21:19:53 UTC-4, shawn wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
>
> >One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
> >China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for teacher;
> >the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and taught
> >English there.)
> >
> >In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86 (who
> >has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched) has been
> >quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China and the
> >treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his latest episode,
> >he describes his journey from being an ardent admirer of China (before
> >he ever went to China) to a foe of China who literally had to flee to
> >keep from being arrested by Chairman Xi's goons. It's fascinated to
> >see snippets from the first videos he ever did, before he'd ever set
> >foot in China, that defend China and hear how mortified he is now by
> >his utter naivete:
> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
> >
> >He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
> >long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
> >North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
> >realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
> >other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
> >that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
> >beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
> >reality....
> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
> women and children.

"Belt and road" "belt and road!" Chinoids killed 25M of their own people. Russians killed 20M+ of people under their control before Hitler came on scene. Cambodians killed 1.8 million, the cream of their society. N. Koreans? Who knows. They are your socialist paradises.

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 10:47:25 -0400, FPP <fredp1571@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 10/22/23 10:34 AM, shawn wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:44:55 -0400, Rhino
>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
>>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
>>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>>>>> China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
>>>>> teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
>>>>> taught English there.)
>>>>>
>>>>> In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
>>>>> (who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
>>>>> has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
>>>>> and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
>>>>> latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
>>>>> admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
>>>>> who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
>>>>> Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
>>>>> ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
>>>>> hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
>>>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
>>>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
>>>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
>>>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
>>>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
>>>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
>>>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
>>>>
>>> It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
>>> poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
>>> finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
>>> construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
>>> astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
>>> materials were.
>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>>>>>
>>>>> He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
>>>>> long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
>>>>> North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
>>>>> realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
>>>>> other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
>>>>> that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
>>>>> beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
>>>>> reality....
>>>>
>>>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
>>>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
>>>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
>>>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
>>>> women and children.
>>>
>>> London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
>>> Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
>>> demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
>>> media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
>>> stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
>>> the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
>>> response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.
>>
>> To be fair the Israeli air strikes are very likely killing innocent
>> civilians no matter what the intent of the Israelis were. So there's
>> fair reason to complain about the actions of Hamas AND the Israeli
>> military.
>>
>> I can't get upset about people coming together to ask for support for
>> Palestine as it's clear that there are many people in the Gaza strip
>> who aren't involved in attacking Israel. They end up bearing the brunt
>> of the Israel attacks on Hamas because Hamas hides among the
>> civilians. I don't know what the average Palestinian can do as most
>> aren't in a position to leave and they can't throw out the heavily
>> armed Hamas.
>>
>
>Hamas deliberately puts their people in harm's way. This is why you
>don't elect a terrorist organization in the first place. The die is
>cast. They had more than a couple of chances to have their 2 state
>solution, and turned them all down, one after another. Now, it's too late.
>
>Look at what we did after 9-11. We attacked a country that had nothing
>to do with it - so everybody who died there was a victim of the USA.
>And the Israelis who voted for Bibi are to blame as well.
>
>Bottom line is, Hamas has to go. One way, or the other, Israel will
>never allow them to be able to do this again. And we'd do the same thing.

I agree that Hamas needs to go. I just don't like the idea that Hamas
needs to go by killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians
which seems to be where things are going.

On Oct 22, 2023 at 7:34:40 AM PDT, "shawn" <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com>
wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:44:55 -0400, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>>> >China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
>>> >teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
>>> >taught English there.)
>>> >
>>> >In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
>>> >(who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
>>> >has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
>>> >and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
>>> >latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
>>> >admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
>>> >who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
>>> >Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
>>> >ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
>>> >hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>>>
>>>
>>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
>>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
>>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
>>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
>>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
>>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
>>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
>>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
>>>
>> It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
>> poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
>> finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
>> construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
>> astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
>> materials were.
>>
>>> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>>> >
>>> >He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
>>> >long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
>>> >North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
>>> >realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
>>> >other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
>>> >that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
>>> >beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
>>> >reality....
>>>
>>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
>>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
>>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
>>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
>>> women and children.
>>
>> London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
>> Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
>> demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
>> media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
>> stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
>> the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
>> response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.
>
> To be fair the Israeli air strikes are very likely killing innocent
> civilians no matter what the intent of the Israelis were. So there's
> fair reason to complain about the actions of Hamas AND the Israeli
> military.

So did the bombing of Dresden. We weren't wrong in doing it, however.

Wars are horrible. That's why you want to avoid having them.

On Oct 22, 2023 at 5:44:55 AM PDT, "Rhino" <no_offline_contact@example.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>
>> >One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>> >China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
>> >teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
>> >taught English there.)
>> >
>> >In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
>> >(who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
>> >has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
>> >and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
>> >latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
>> >admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
>> >who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
>> >Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
>> >ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
>> >hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>>
>>
>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
>>
> It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
> poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
> finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
> construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
> astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
> materials were.
>
>> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>> >
>> >He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
>> >long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
>> >North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
>> >realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
>> >other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
>> >that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
>> >beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
>> >reality....
>>
>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
>> women and children.
>
> London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
> Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
> demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
> media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
> stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
> the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
> response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.

So I woke up yesterday to find U.S. embassies are on the verge of being
overrun all over the Middle East: Jordan, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, Turkey.

Why isn't the State Department doing anything?

There's a possibility of several Benghazis happening all at once, and nobody
in the regime seems to give a shit.

Our 57 intelligence agencies didn't see this coming? Even my cat mentioned it
last week.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>>. . .

>To be fair the Israeli air strikes are very likely killing innocent
>civilians no matter what the intent of the Israelis were. So there's
>fair reason to complain about the actions of Hamas AND the Israeli
>military.

Actually, no, you are not being fair as you have not acknowledged that
Hamas committed numerous war crimes. Launching rockets from cvilian areas,
building that massive tunnel infrastructure under Gaza City to launch
terrorist attack from, those are all war crimes. It was Hamas that is
knowingly using the poor suckers who had the misfortune to have been born
in the Gaza Strip as human shields.

The intent, absolutely, 100%, indisputable, of Hamas is for Israel to
kill Gaza civilians during war.

This has nothing to do with Israel's intent but Hamas's intent. Israel
IS NOT committing war crimes here. Hamas is.

>I can't get upset about people coming together to ask for support for
>Palestine as it's clear that there are many people in the Gaza strip
>who aren't involved in attacking Israel. They end up bearing the brunt
>of the Israel attacks on Hamas because Hamas hides among the
>civilians. I don't know what the average Palestinian can do as most
>aren't in a position to leave and they can't throw out the heavily
>armed Hamas.

They voted them in. Now, in the West Bank, the prediction is that Fatah
is so corrupt and hated, as it was in Gaza, that Hamas could very well
be voted in next time as well.

You tell me what the other choice is for Israel that's not utterly
destroying Hamas in Gaza despite the harm caused to Gaza civilians.

On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 2:21:22 PM UTC-4, BTR1701 wrote:
> On Oct 22, 2023 at 5:44:55 AM PDT, "Rhino" <no_offlin...@example.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
> > shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
> >> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
> >> >China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
> >> >teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
> >> >taught English there.)
> >> >
> >> >In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
> >> >(who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
> >> >has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
> >> >and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
> >> >latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
> >> >admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
> >> >who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
> >> >Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
> >> >ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
> >> >hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
> >>
> >>
> >> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
> >> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
> >> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
> >> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
> >> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
> >> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
> >> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
> >> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
> >>
> > It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
> > poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
> > finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
> > construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
> > astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
> > materials were.
> >
> >> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
> >> >
> >> >He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
> >> >long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
> >> >North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
> >> >realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
> >> >other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
> >> >that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
> >> >beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
> >> >reality....
> >>
> >> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
> >> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
> >> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
> >> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
> >> women and children.
> >
> > London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
> > Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
> > demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
> > media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
> > stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
> > the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
> > response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.
> So I woke up yesterday to find U.S. embassies are on the verge of being
> overrun all over the Middle East: Jordan, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, Turkey.

> Why isn't the State Department doing anything?

State Department is in a state of mutiny over Biden's decision to kill Palestinians

https://www.google.com/search?q=State+Department+mutiny

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>>. . .

>I agree that Hamas needs to go. I just don't like the idea that Hamas
>needs to go by killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians
>which seems to be where things are going.

Exactly what is the alternative? Really, I want to know. Putin is far
more likely to make peace with Ukraine than Hamas is with Israel.

This is why firing rockets and building tunnels in densely-populated
civilian areas is a war crime.

Who in the Arab world or anywhere in the Middle East ever called out
Hamas for the war crimes they were committing against the civilian
population they ruled? Who anywhere in the world has ever advocated for
Palestinians so that they can live their lives peacefully?

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 23:41:26 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
<ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

>shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>
>>>. . .
>
>>I agree that Hamas needs to go. I just don't like the idea that Hamas
>>needs to go by killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians
>>which seems to be where things are going.
>
>Exactly what is the alternative? Really, I want to know. Putin is far
>more likely to make peace with Ukraine than Hamas is with Israel.

I don't have one. That doesn't mean I have to support Israel or Hamas
in their actions. You brought up Hamas being voted in. That was a
mistake but one that the Palestinians don't have a means of undoing.
I'm sure if there was a free election the average Palestinian would be
happy to vote Hamas out of control.

>This is why firing rockets and building tunnels in densely-populated
>civilian areas is a war crime.
>
>Who in the Arab world or anywhere in the Middle East ever called out
>Hamas for the war crimes they were committing against the civilian
>population they ruled? Who anywhere in the world has ever advocated for
>Palestinians so that they can live their lives peacefully?

On 10/22/23 11:46 AM, shawn wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 10:47:25 -0400, FPP <fredp1571@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/22/23 10:34 AM, shawn wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:44:55 -0400, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
>>>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
>>>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>>>>>> China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
>>>>>> teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
>>>>>> taught English there.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
>>>>>> (who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
>>>>>> has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
>>>>>> and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
>>>>>> latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
>>>>>> admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
>>>>>> who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
>>>>>> Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
>>>>>> ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
>>>>>> hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
>>>>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
>>>>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
>>>>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
>>>>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
>>>>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
>>>>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
>>>>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
>>>>>
>>>> It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
>>>> poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
>>>> finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
>>>> construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
>>>> astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
>>>> materials were.
>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
>>>>>> long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
>>>>>> North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
>>>>>> realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
>>>>>> other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
>>>>>> that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
>>>>>> beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
>>>>>> reality....
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
>>>>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
>>>>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
>>>>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
>>>>> women and children.
>>>>
>>>> London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
>>>> Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
>>>> demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
>>>> media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
>>>> stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
>>>> the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
>>>> response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.
>>>
>>> To be fair the Israeli air strikes are very likely killing innocent
>>> civilians no matter what the intent of the Israelis were. So there's
>>> fair reason to complain about the actions of Hamas AND the Israeli
>>> military.
>>>
>>> I can't get upset about people coming together to ask for support for
>>> Palestine as it's clear that there are many people in the Gaza strip
>>> who aren't involved in attacking Israel. They end up bearing the brunt
>>> of the Israel attacks on Hamas because Hamas hides among the
>>> civilians. I don't know what the average Palestinian can do as most
>>> aren't in a position to leave and they can't throw out the heavily
>>> armed Hamas.
>>>
>>
>> Hamas deliberately puts their people in harm's way. This is why you
>> don't elect a terrorist organization in the first place. The die is
>> cast. They had more than a couple of chances to have their 2 state
>> solution, and turned them all down, one after another. Now, it's too late.
>>
>> Look at what we did after 9-11. We attacked a country that had nothing
>> to do with it - so everybody who died there was a victim of the USA.
>> And the Israelis who voted for Bibi are to blame as well.
>>
>> Bottom line is, Hamas has to go. One way, or the other, Israel will
>> never allow them to be able to do this again. And we'd do the same thing.
>
> I agree that Hamas needs to go. I just don't like the idea that Hamas
> needs to go by killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians
> which seems to be where things are going.

If you've figured out a better way, let somebody know. I haven't.

Israel can't leave them with the ability to do it again, and they can't
allow them to get away with it. The civilians in Gaza are going to pay
the price for electing terrorists.

Terrorists don't care about civilians, and now the bill has come due.

--
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind." - OC
Bible 25B.G.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek8kap93bmk0q5w/D%20U%20N%20E%20Part%20II.jpg?dl=0

Gracie, age 6.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0es3xolxka455iw/BetterThingsToDo.jpg?dl=0

On 10/22/23 8:44 PM, FPP wrote:
> On 10/22/23 11:46 AM, shawn wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 10:47:25 -0400, FPP <fredp1571@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/22/23 10:34 AM, shawn wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:44:55 -0400, Rhino
>>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
>>>>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
>>>>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>>>>>>> China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
>>>>>>> teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
>>>>>>> taught English there.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
>>>>>>> (who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
>>>>>>> has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
>>>>>>> and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
>>>>>>> latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
>>>>>>> admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
>>>>>>> who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
>>>>>>> Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
>>>>>>> ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
>>>>>>> hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
>>>>>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
>>>>>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
>>>>>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
>>>>>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
>>>>>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
>>>>>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
>>>>>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
>>>>>>
>>>>> It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
>>>>> poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
>>>>> finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
>>>>> construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
>>>>> astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
>>>>> materials were.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all
>>>>>>> day
>>>>>>> long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
>>>>>>> North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
>>>>>>> realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
>>>>>>> other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the
>>>>>>> experiences
>>>>>>> that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
>>>>>>> beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
>>>>>>> reality....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
>>>>>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
>>>>>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
>>>>>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
>>>>>> women and children.
>>>>>
>>>>> London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
>>>>> Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
>>>>> demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
>>>>> media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
>>>>> stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
>>>>> the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
>>>>> response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.
>>>>
>>>> To be fair the Israeli air strikes are very likely killing innocent
>>>> civilians no matter what the intent of the Israelis were. So there's
>>>> fair reason to complain about the actions of Hamas AND the Israeli
>>>> military.
>>>>
>>>> I can't get upset about people coming together to ask for support for
>>>> Palestine as it's clear that there are many people in the Gaza strip
>>>> who aren't involved in attacking Israel. They end up bearing the brunt
>>>> of the Israel attacks on Hamas because Hamas hides among the
>>>> civilians. I don't know what the average Palestinian can do as most
>>>> aren't in a position to leave and they can't throw out the heavily
>>>> armed Hamas.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hamas deliberately puts their people in harm's way.  This is why you
>>> don't elect a terrorist organization in the first place.  The die is
>>> cast.  They had more than a couple of chances to have their 2 state
>>> solution, and turned them all down, one after another.  Now, it's too
>>> late.
>>>
>>> Look at what we did after 9-11.  We attacked a country that had nothing
>>> to do with it - so everybody who died there was a victim of the USA.
>>> And the Israelis who voted for Bibi are to blame as well.
>>>
>>> Bottom line is, Hamas has to go.  One way, or the other, Israel will
>>> never allow them to be able to do this again.  And we'd do the same
>>> thing.
>>
>> I agree that Hamas needs to go. I just don't like the idea that Hamas
>> needs to go by killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians
>> which seems to be where things are going.
>
>
> If you've figured out a better way, let somebody know.  I haven't.
>
> Israel can't leave them with the ability to do it again, and they can't
> allow them to get away with it.  The civilians in Gaza are going to pay
> the price for electing terrorists.
>
> Terrorists don't care about civilians, and now the bill has come due.

And I should have stated, for the record, Israel isn't blameless,
either. Far from it.

Israeli's elected a man who did not want peace. Bibi absolutely is the
architect of this situation, and the Israeli people knew it when they
elected him.

Bibi wants conflict. He was dead set against a 2 state solution and all
this plays into his hands. Sure, he overplayed his hand, and now he's
going to be a casualty of it, too. I'm not sure he cares.

So here we are. Hard-liners on both sides have gotten what they wanted.
All that's left to do is for the innocents on both sides to pay for it.

Moral of the story... don't elect fanatics who don't care about what
happens to you.

--
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind." - OC
Bible 25B.G.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek8kap93bmk0q5w/D%20U%20N%20E%20Part%20II.jpg?dl=0

Gracie, age 6.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0es3xolxka455iw/BetterThingsToDo.jpg?dl=0

On 10/22/23 2:21 PM, BTR1701 wrote:
> On Oct 22, 2023 at 5:44:55 AM PDT, "Rhino" <no_offline_contact@example.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
>> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
>>> >China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
>>> >teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
>>> >taught English there.)
>>> >
>>> >In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
>>> >(who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
>>> >has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
>>> >and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
>>> >latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
>>> >admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
>>> >who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
>>> >Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
>>> >ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
>>> >hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
>>>
>>>
>>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
>>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
>>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
>>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
>>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
>>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
>>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
>>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
>>>
>> It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
>> poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
>> finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
>> construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
>> astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
>> materials were.
>>
>>> >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
>>> >
>>> >He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all day
>>> >long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
>>> >North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
>>> >realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
>>> >other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the experiences
>>> >that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
>>> >beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
>>> >reality....
>>>
>>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
>>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
>>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
>>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
>>> women and children.
>>
>> London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
>> Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
>> demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
>> media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
>> stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
>> the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
>> response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.
>
> So I woke up yesterday to find U.S. embassies are on the verge of being
> overrun all over the Middle East: Jordan, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, Turkey.
>
> Why isn't the State Department doing anything?
>
> There's a possibility of several Benghazis happening all at once, and nobody
> in the regime seems to give a shit.
>
> Our 57 intelligence agencies didn't see this coming? Even my cat mentioned it
> last week.
>
>

I'm sure the first thing they'll get right on is telling you what
they're doing.

Well, at least you managed to get a Benghazi! (tm) reference in.

--
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind." - OC
Bible 25B.G.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek8kap93bmk0q5w/D%20U%20N%20E%20Part%20II.jpg?dl=0

Gracie, age 6.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0es3xolxka455iw/BetterThingsToDo.jpg?dl=0

On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:12:54 PM UTC-4, FPP wrote:
> On 10/22/23 8:44 PM, FPP wrote:
> > On 10/22/23 11:46 AM, shawn wrote:
> >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 10:47:25 -0400, FPP <fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 10/22/23 10:34 AM, shawn wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:44:55 -0400, Rhino
> >>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
> >>>>> shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
> >>>>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
> >>>>>>> China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
> >>>>>>> teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
> >>>>>>> taught English there.)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
> >>>>>>> (who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
> >>>>>>> has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
> >>>>>>> and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
> >>>>>>> latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
> >>>>>>> admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
> >>>>>>> who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
> >>>>>>> Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
> >>>>>>> ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
> >>>>>>> hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
> >>>>>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
> >>>>>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
> >>>>>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
> >>>>>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
> >>>>>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
> >>>>>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
> >>>>>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
> >>>>> poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
> >>>>> finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
> >>>>> construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
> >>>>> astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
> >>>>> materials were.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all
> >>>>>>> day
> >>>>>>> long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
> >>>>>>> North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
> >>>>>>> realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
> >>>>>>> other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the
> >>>>>>> experiences
> >>>>>>> that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
> >>>>>>> beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
> >>>>>>> reality....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
> >>>>>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
> >>>>>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
> >>>>>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
> >>>>>> women and children.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
> >>>>> Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
> >>>>> demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
> >>>>> media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
> >>>>> stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
> >>>>> the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
> >>>>> response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.
> >>>>
> >>>> To be fair the Israeli air strikes are very likely killing innocent
> >>>> civilians no matter what the intent of the Israelis were. So there's
> >>>> fair reason to complain about the actions of Hamas AND the Israeli
> >>>> military.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't get upset about people coming together to ask for support for
> >>>> Palestine as it's clear that there are many people in the Gaza strip
> >>>> who aren't involved in attacking Israel. They end up bearing the brunt
> >>>> of the Israel attacks on Hamas because Hamas hides among the
> >>>> civilians. I don't know what the average Palestinian can do as most
> >>>> aren't in a position to leave and they can't throw out the heavily
> >>>> armed Hamas.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Hamas deliberately puts their people in harm's way. This is why you
> >>> don't elect a terrorist organization in the first place. The die is
> >>> cast. They had more than a couple of chances to have their 2 state
> >>> solution, and turned them all down, one after another. Now, it's too
> >>> late.
> >>>
> >>> Look at what we did after 9-11. We attacked a country that had nothing
> >>> to do with it - so everybody who died there was a victim of the USA.
> >>> And the Israelis who voted for Bibi are to blame as well.
> >>>
> >>> Bottom line is, Hamas has to go. One way, or the other, Israel will
> >>> never allow them to be able to do this again. And we'd do the same
> >>> thing.
> >>
> >> I agree that Hamas needs to go. I just don't like the idea that Hamas
> >> needs to go by killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians
> >> which seems to be where things are going.
> >
> >
> > If you've figured out a better way, let somebody know. I haven't.
> >
> > Israel can't leave them with the ability to do it again, and they can't
> > allow them to get away with it. The civilians in Gaza are going to pay
> > the price for electing terrorists.
> >
> > Terrorists don't care about civilians, and now the bill has come due.
> And I should have stated, for the record, Israel isn't blameless,
> either. Far from it.
>
> Israeli's elected a man who did not want peace. Bibi absolutely is the
> architect of this situation, and the Israeli people knew it when they
> elected him.
>
> Bibi wants conflict. He was dead set against a 2 state solution and all
> this plays into his hands. Sure, he overplayed his hand, and now he's
> going to be a casualty of it, too. I'm not sure he cares.
>
> So here we are. Hard-liners on both sides have gotten what they wanted.
> All that's left to do is for the innocents on both sides to pay for it.
>
> Moral of the story... don't elect fanatics who don't care about what
> happens to you.

tags: your government has been hijacked, and you are too fucking stupid to know it

On Sunday, October 22, 2023 at 9:12:54 PM UTC-4, FPP wrote:
> On 10/22/23 8:44 PM, FPP wrote:
> > On 10/22/23 11:46 AM, shawn wrote:
> >> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 10:47:25 -0400, FPP <fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 10/22/23 10:34 AM, shawn wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 08:44:55 -0400, Rhino
> >>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:19:45 -0400
> >>>>> shawn <nanof...@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:52:45 -0400, Rhino
> >>>>>> <no_offlin...@example.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> One of the YouTube channels I watch that deals with the situation in
> >>>>>>> China is Laowhy86. (Laowhy is apparently the Mandarin word for
> >>>>>>> teacher; the host, who is American, lived in China for 10 years and
> >>>>>>> taught English there.)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In the couple of years that I've been watching the show, Laowhy86
> >>>>>>> (who has never revealed his real name in any episode I've watched)
> >>>>>>> has been quite outspoken in revealing the reality of life in China
> >>>>>>> and the treachery of the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). In his
> >>>>>>> latest episode, he describes his journey from being an ardent
> >>>>>>> admirer of China (before he ever went to China) to a foe of China
> >>>>>>> who literally had to flee to keep from being arrested by Chairman
> >>>>>>> Xi's goons. It's fascinated to see snippets from the first videos he
> >>>>>>> ever did, before he'd ever set foot in China, that defend China and
> >>>>>>> hear how mortified he is now by his utter naivete:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To be fair there was a lot to cheer about with China. What wasn't
> >>>>>> known was how so much of the great things China appeared to be doing
> >>>>>> were just castles built on sand. All that money being put into
> >>>>>> construction projects that looked great from the outside only to find
> >>>>>> that many projects weren't needed like a high speed rail to remote
> >>>>>> small towns. Or how local governments were forced to constantly be
> >>>>>> building new projects to look good to the national government. The
> >>>>>> problem being none of that was apparent in the beginning.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> It's not just that some projects were unneeded. Many projects were so
> >>>>> poorly executed that they started falling apart before they were even
> >>>>> finished or soon thereafter. Look for videos on "tofu dreg"
> >>>>> construction, particularly on the Laowhy86 channel and you'll be
> >>>>> astounded at how shoddy the workmanship was and how 10th rate the
> >>>>> materials were.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHxExHC7LnQ [18 minutes]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> He reminds me greatly of all the "activists" that shout at us all
> >>>>>>> day
> >>>>>>> long about "social justice" who actually believe that, say, Hamas or
> >>>>>>> North Korea are role models for the entire world. Laowhy86's
> >>>>>>> realization that he was deeply, deeply wrong gives me hope that the
> >>>>>>> other "activists" we hear from all the time also have the
> >>>>>>> experiences
> >>>>>>> that re-connect them with reality. But that assumes they are human
> >>>>>>> beings, not just programmed bots who have no capacity to learn from
> >>>>>>> reality....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't know anyone that thinks either one is a role model. What some
> >>>>>> might say about Hamas is that they are fighting for something that is
> >>>>>> justified, which is freedom for Palestine. Though not many are going
> >>>>>> to defend their actions like in this last attack on Israel killing
> >>>>>> women and children.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> London apparently had 100,000 people demonstrating on behalf of
> >>>>> Palestine yesterday. The Arab countries have apparently had some huge
> >>>>> demonstrations on behalf of the Palestinians. Here in Canada, major
> >>>>> media outlets like CBC, CTV, and Global are pumping out frequent
> >>>>> stories painting all the Gazans as victims who must be protected from
> >>>>> the Israelis; any recognition that the Israeli air strikes are a
> >>>>> response to Hamas' atrocities are pro forma at best.
> >>>>
> >>>> To be fair the Israeli air strikes are very likely killing innocent
> >>>> civilians no matter what the intent of the Israelis were. So there's
> >>>> fair reason to complain about the actions of Hamas AND the Israeli
> >>>> military.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't get upset about people coming together to ask for support for
> >>>> Palestine as it's clear that there are many people in the Gaza strip
> >>>> who aren't involved in attacking Israel. They end up bearing the brunt
> >>>> of the Israel attacks on Hamas because Hamas hides among the
> >>>> civilians. I don't know what the average Palestinian can do as most
> >>>> aren't in a position to leave and they can't throw out the heavily
> >>>> armed Hamas.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Hamas deliberately puts their people in harm's way. This is why you
> >>> don't elect a terrorist organization in the first place. The die is
> >>> cast. They had more than a couple of chances to have their 2 state
> >>> solution, and turned them all down, one after another. Now, it's too
> >>> late.
> >>>
> >>> Look at what we did after 9-11. We attacked a country that had nothing
> >>> to do with it - so everybody who died there was a victim of the USA.
> >>> And the Israelis who voted for Bibi are to blame as well.
> >>>
> >>> Bottom line is, Hamas has to go. One way, or the other, Israel will
> >>> never allow them to be able to do this again. And we'd do the same
> >>> thing.
> >>
> >> I agree that Hamas needs to go. I just don't like the idea that Hamas
> >> needs to go by killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians
> >> which seems to be where things are going.
> >
> >
> > If you've figured out a better way, let somebody know. I haven't.
> >
> > Israel can't leave them with the ability to do it again, and they can't
> > allow them to get away with it. The civilians in Gaza are going to pay
> > the price for electing terrorists.
> >
> > Terrorists don't care about civilians, and now the bill has come due.
> And I should have stated, for the record, Israel isn't blameless,
> either. Far from it.
>
> Israeli's elected a man who did not want peace. Bibi absolutely is the
> architect of this situation, and the Israeli people knew it when they
> elected him.
>
> Bibi wants conflict. He was dead set against a 2 state solution and all
> this plays into his hands. Sure, he overplayed his hand, and now he's
> going to be a casualty of it, too. I'm not sure he cares.
>
> So here we are. Hard-liners on both sides have gotten what they wanted.
> All that's left to do is for the innocents on both sides to pay for it.
>
> Moral of the story...

David Ben-Gurion told Nahum Goldmann, the president of the World Jewish Congress:

If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?

In article <uh4bv6$2n8la$1@dont-email.me>,
"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:

> shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>
> >>. . .
>
> >I agree that Hamas needs to go. I just don't like the idea that Hamas
> >needs to go by killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians
> >which seems to be where things are going.
>
> Exactly what is the alternative? Really, I want to know. Putin is far
> more likely to make peace with Ukraine than Hamas is with Israel.
>
> This is why firing rockets and building tunnels in densely-populated
> civilian areas is a war crime.

It is? Rockets, sure, but I've never heard tunneling classified as a war
crime.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>Sun, 22 Oct 2023 23:41:26 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman <ahk@chinet.com>:
>>shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>>>>. . .

>>>I agree that Hamas needs to go. I just don't like the idea that Hamas
>>>needs to go by killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians
>>>which seems to be where things are going.

>>Exactly what is the alternative? Really, I want to know. Putin is far
>>more likely to make peace with Ukraine than Hamas is with Israel.

>I don't have one. That doesn't mean I have to support Israel or Hamas
>in their actions. You brought up Hamas being voted in. That was a
>mistake but one that the Palestinians don't have a means of undoing.
>I'm sure if there was a free election the average Palestinian would be
>happy to vote Hamas out of control.

There cannot be free elections. There is no development of a normal
political process. That election? They were mostly throwing Fatah out
due to rampant corruption--stealing all the foreign aid and not building
housing.

>>This is why firing rockets and building tunnels in densely-populated
>>civilian areas is a war crime.

>>Who in the Arab world or anywhere in the Middle East ever called out
>>Hamas for the war crimes they were committing against the civilian
>>population they ruled? Who anywhere in the world has ever advocated for
>>Palestinians so that they can live their lives peacefully?

BTR1701 <atropos@mac.com> wrote:
>"Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>>>>. . .

>>>I agree that Hamas needs to go. I just don't like the idea that Hamas
>>>needs to go by killing tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians
>>>which seems to be where things are going.

>>Exactly what is the alternative? Really, I want to know. Putin is far
>>more likely to make peace with Ukraine than Hamas is with Israel.

>>This is why firing rockets and building tunnels in densely-populated
>>civilian areas is a war crime.

>It is? Rockets, sure, but I've never heard tunneling classified as a war
>crime.

They have armouries down there, which makes them military targets.

That being said, I truly have no idea if the Geneva Convention applies
to them. Palestine isn't a state and wouldn't have signed it at any
point.

Your point earlier was a much better one, that the consequences of war
are so horrific it's truly best not to start one.