Sen. John Fetterman (D-PA) ripped people who get their news from Chinese-
controlled TikTok, saying that their perspective will be �warped� and �not
reflective� of reality.

Fetterman made the remarks during an interview with CNN�s Jake Tapper on
Tuesday while discussing why young Democratic voters are not supporting
Biden�s mostly pro-Israel stance.

�Seventy-two percent of young voters, according to this new poll, disapprove
of how President Biden is handling the Israel-Hamas war,� Tapper said.
�You�ve been very vocal in your full support for Israel. I see the Israeli
flag behind you in your office there. You�ve been very clearly arguing that
Hamas bears responsibility for the tragedy of what�s going on in Gaza.�

�Why do you think so many younger people, especially in your party, see it
differently?� Tapper asked.

�I really, I really don�t know. I do know that a lot of people are getting
their perspective from TikTok,� Fetterman responded. �And I think if you�re
kind of getting your perspective on the world on TikTok, it�s going to tend
to be kind of warped or not reflective of the history and actually the way
things absolutely are.�

�And what is very clear is, is that Hamas started this and they actually
broke the ceasefire and they attacked and murdered babies, children, women �
attacked a music concert and everything,� he continued. �It�s outrageous. And
from now on, it�s been very clear that Israel would very much want there to
be peace. But they�ve made it very clear that after October 7, that�s just
not possible so long as Hamas is allowed to exist.�

WATCH:

Fetterman on NYT poll showing young voters blaming Israel in war
against Hamas:

�If you�re getting your perspective on the world on TikTok, it�s
going to tend to be kinda warped.

�It�s been very clear that Israel would very much want there to be
peace."pic.twitter.com/umCkoBxwvQ

� Jacob N. Kornbluh (@jacobkornbluh) December 19, 2023

--
"By the way, the same stable Jesus said the biggest problem is we had in the
revolutionary war as we didn't have enough airports."
-- Joe Biden

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 04:30:50 -0500, Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net>
wrote:

>“And what is very clear is, is that Hamas started this and they actually
>broke the ceasefire and they attacked and murdered babies, children, women –
>attacked a music concert and everything,” he continued. “It’s outrageous. And
>from now on, it’s been very clear that Israel would very much want there to
>be peace. But they’ve made it very clear that after October 7, that’s just
>not possible so long as Hamas is allowed to exist.”
>
Yes or no - would anything violent have happened on or after October
7th if Hamas had not invaded Israel?

Because that after all is the only thing that matters and if
casualties (military or civilian) are higher than amongst the
defenders why is that surprising?

On September 1st 1939 Germany attacked Poland and 2 days later Britain
and France declared war on them. German casualties were substantially
higher both in the German vs British portion of the war (on air land
and sea) and pretty much every other theater except the German-Soviet
theater.

Why should casualties in any war be expected to be even?

lcraver@home.ca wrote:

>Why should casualties in any war be expected to be even?

They shouldn't, but that doesn;t stop them from trying. According to their
stupid "logic", the Allies were the bad guys because we killed more Germans
and Japanese than they killed out guys.

--
Let's go Brandon!

On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 04:30:46 -0500, Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net>
wrote:

>lcraver@home.ca wrote:
>
>>Why should casualties in any war be expected to be even?
>
>They shouldn't, but that doesn;t stop them from trying. According to their
>stupid "logic", the Allies were the bad guys because we killed more Germans
>and Japanese than they killed out guys.

By that "logic" the Soviet Union and Russia should consider Hitler and
his gang the "good guys" since they killed more Soviet citizens than
the Red Army killed Germans (January 1945 was the first month of the
German invasion of Russia where the Russians killed more Germans than
vice versa and by January 1945 they were fighting on German territory)

lcraver@home.ca wrote:
> Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>> lcraver@home.ca wrote:

>>>Why should casualties in any war be expected to be even?
>>
>>They shouldn't, but that doesn;t stop them from trying. According to their
>>stupid "logic", the Allies were the bad guys because we killed more Germans
>>and Japanese than they killed out guys.
>
>By that "logic" the Soviet Union and Russia should consider Hitler and
>his gang the "good guys" since they killed more Soviet citizens than
>the Red Army killed Germans (January 1945 was the first month of the
>German invasion of Russia where the Russians killed more Germans than
>vice versa and by January 1945 they were fighting on German territory)

Yeah, but that detracts from their claim that America sucks.

--
Let's go Brandon!

On 2023-12-21 9:23 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2023 04:30:50 -0500, Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net>
> wrote:
>
>> “And what is very clear is, is that Hamas started this and they actually
>> broke the ceasefire and they attacked and murdered babies, children, women –
>> attacked a music concert and everything,” he continued. “It’s outrageous. And
>>from now on, it’s been very clear that Israel would very much want there to
>> be peace. But they’ve made it very clear that after October 7, that’s just
>> not possible so long as Hamas is allowed to exist.”
>>
> Yes or no - would anything violent have happened on or after October
> 7th if Hamas had not invaded Israel?
>
> Because that after all is the only thing that matters and if
> casualties (military or civilian) are higher than amongst the
> defenders why is that surprising?
>
> On September 1st 1939 Germany attacked Poland and 2 days later Britain
> and France declared war on them. German casualties were substantially
> higher both in the German vs British portion of the war (on air land
> and sea) and pretty much every other theater except the German-Soviet
> theater.
>
> Why should casualties in any war be expected to be even?

Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are amongst
the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of health
in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.

--
Rhino

On 2023-12-22 10:55 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 04:30:46 -0500, Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net>
> wrote:
>
>> lcraver@home.ca wrote:
>>
>>> Why should casualties in any war be expected to be even?
>>
>> They shouldn't, but that doesn;t stop them from trying. According to their
>> stupid "logic", the Allies were the bad guys because we killed more Germans
>> and Japanese than they killed out guys.
>
> By that "logic" the Soviet Union and Russia should consider Hitler and
> his gang the "good guys" since they killed more Soviet citizens than
> the Red Army killed Germans (January 1945 was the first month of the
> German invasion of Russia

The German invasion of the Soviet Union began in June 1941; I *know* you
know that ;-)

> where the Russians killed more Germans than
> vice versa and by January 1945 they were fighting on German territory)

--
Rhino

Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>. . .

>Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are amongst
>the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of health
>in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
>gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.

We know the numbers aren't real. They conflate casualties and deaths of
combatants with noncombatants, even if we assume the aggregate totals
aren't being exaggerated. They are trying to make it appear that the
Israelis are simply destroying civilian and not military targets, that
it's flat-out murder, a la the Russian attack upon Ukraine.

no_offline_contact@example.com wrote:
> On 2023-12-21 9:23 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:

>> Yes or no - would anything violent have happened on or after October
>> 7th if Hamas had not invaded Israel?
>>
>> Because that after all is the only thing that matters and if
>> casualties (military or civilian) are higher than amongst the
>> defenders why is that surprising?
>>
>> On September 1st 1939 Germany attacked Poland and 2 days later Britain
>> and France declared war on them. German casualties were substantially
>> higher both in the German vs British portion of the war (on air land
>> and sea) and pretty much every other theater except the German-Soviet
>> theater.
>>
>> Why should casualties in any war be expected to be even?
>
>Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are amongst
>the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of health
>in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
>gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.

They have a VERY long history of fabricating casualties. There are several
instances of them still moving in their funeral processions and I recently saw
one where a dead one sat up to tell his grieving mother he's OK.

--
Let's go Brandon!

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 04:30:48 -0500, Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net>
wrote:

>lcraver@home.ca wrote:
>> Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net> wrote:
>>> lcraver@home.ca wrote:
>
>>>>Why should casualties in any war be expected to be even?
>>>
>>>They shouldn't, but that doesn;t stop them from trying. According to their
>>>stupid "logic", the Allies were the bad guys because we killed more Germans
>>>and Japanese than they killed out guys.
>>
>>By that "logic" the Soviet Union and Russia should consider Hitler and
>>his gang the "good guys" since they killed more Soviet citizens than
>>the Red Army killed Germans (January 1945 was the first month of the
>>German invasion of Russia where the Russians killed more Germans than
>>vice versa and by January 1945 they were fighting on German territory)
>
>Yeah, but that detracts from their claim that America sucks.

Very true - but so?

I'm not an American and have said here several times that the world
situation is that this is one time the world generally does need
America to be great - and 2 points: (1) I don't think it really is
right now - China and Russia are getting away with far too much and
(2) ACTUALLY being great is a very far cry from the Trump slogan.

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 09:51:54 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are amongst
>the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of health
>in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
>gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.

Ditto.

Is _anybody_ less than totally clear that HAMAS' #1 goal is to attempt
to destroy Israel at any cost and #2 is to make them look as bad as
possible 24x7x365?

They're even currently calling the Israelis "aggressors" - which the
usual suspects are aping - which is rather remarkable since it assumes
people have forgotten what happened October 7th.

I'm sorry HAMAS, there is no way in hell Israeli troops would be in
Gaza right now had you done nothing at all on Oct 7th or subsequently
and anything different is a blatant lie. And while there have been
Palestinian casualties, none have been kidnapped or tortured much less
raped or beheaded.

(And I'm NOT particularly sympathetic to the Gazan civilians since
they're the ones who voluntarily put these butchers in power in the
first place)

And when the shooting finally stops the Israeli government needs to
make a flat out statement saying they will never again exchange
prisoners on other than a 1 for 1 basis unless it's ALL prisoners for
ALL prisoners. This has been going on for 40+ years and it's a big
part of why PLO and HAMAS keep doing their atrocities since that's how
they get their gunmen out - by commiting war crimes against civilians.

At least the one thing we now know for sure is that the ONLY solution
that HAMAS will find 'acceptable' is the Final Solution.

rOn Wed, 27 Dec 2023 09:54:49 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>On 2023-12-22 10:55 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 04:30:46 -0500, Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> lcraver@home.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why should casualties in any war be expected to be even?
>>>
>>> They shouldn't, but that doesn;t stop them from trying. According to their
>>> stupid "logic", the Allies were the bad guys because we killed more Germans
>>> and Japanese than they killed out guys.
>>
>> By that "logic" the Soviet Union and Russia should consider Hitler and
>> his gang the "good guys" since they killed more Soviet citizens than
>> the Red Army killed Germans (January 1945 was the first month of the
>> German invasion of Russia
>
>The German invasion of the Soviet Union began in June 1941; I *know* you
>know that ;-)
>
>> where the Russians killed more Germans than
>> vice versa and by January 1945 they were fighting on German territory)

Between 0400 and 0500 on 22 June 1941 to be precise but then you
probably knew I know that too. (There are certain factoids you simply
MUST know if you are going to be a 30+ year veteran of
soc.history.what-if and soc.history.world-war-II)

5 years ago I probably could have told you what time between 4 and 5
am on that day but the old memory isn't what it was.

[The German attack was postponed a few minutes since a Russian ore
train headed for the German sector was delayed and the artillery and
Luftwaffe had orders NOT to attack until the last ore train was in
German territory.]

Incidentally my source on the January 1945 thing was Alexander
Solzhenitsyn - can't recall whether it was vol 2 or 3 of the Gulag
Archipelago.

On 2023-12-28 2:12 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> rOn Wed, 27 Dec 2023 09:54:49 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-12-22 10:55 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Dec 2023 04:30:46 -0500, Ubiquitous <weberm@polaris.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> lcraver@home.ca wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Why should casualties in any war be expected to be even?
>>>>
>>>> They shouldn't, but that doesn;t stop them from trying. According to their
>>>> stupid "logic", the Allies were the bad guys because we killed more Germans
>>>> and Japanese than they killed out guys.
>>>
>>> By that "logic" the Soviet Union and Russia should consider Hitler and
>>> his gang the "good guys" since they killed more Soviet citizens than
>>> the Red Army killed Germans (January 1945 was the first month of the
>>> German invasion of Russia
>>
>> The German invasion of the Soviet Union began in June 1941; I *know* you
>> know that ;-)
>>
>>> where the Russians killed more Germans than
>>> vice versa and by January 1945 they were fighting on German territory)
>
> Between 0400 and 0500 on 22 June 1941 to be precise but then you
> probably knew I know that too. (There are certain factoids you simply
> MUST know if you are going to be a 30+ year veteran of
> soc.history.what-if and soc.history.world-war-II)
>
I heard that the invasion began at 3 AM but maybe that was the scheduled
time and it got deferred for that ore train that you mentioned....

I'm still not sure if you realize that you misstated the start date of
the invasion of the Soviet Union in your original post by placing it in
January 1945. I *know* you simply misspoke so don't think I'm trying to
educate you :-)

> 5 years ago I probably could have told you what time between 4 and 5
> am on that day but the old memory isn't what it was.
>
> [The German attack was postponed a few minutes since a Russian ore
> train headed for the German sector was delayed and the artillery and
> Luftwaffe had orders NOT to attack until the last ore train was in
> German territory.]
>
> Incidentally my source on the January 1945 thing was Alexander
> Solzhenitsyn - can't recall whether it was vol 2 or 3 of the Gulag
> Archipelago.

I've read Gulag Archipelago three times but I can't recall which volume
was the one where he mentioned his own military service. I would
certainly not dispute anything Solzhenitsyn said, whichever volume he
said it in! I'm pretty sure he was arrested in February and by the time
the war in Europe was over, I believe he was in the notorious Lubyanka
prison. Or maybe he had already been convicted and sent to his first
camp. In any case, he didn't get to dance in the streets and kiss pretty
girls like the rest of the surviving Soviet citizenry on VE Day.

--
Rhino

On 2023-12-27 10:32 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>>> . . .
>
>> Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are amongst
>> the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of health
>> in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
>> gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.
>
> We know the numbers aren't real. They conflate casualties and deaths of
> combatants with noncombatants, even if we assume the aggregate totals
> aren't being exaggerated. They are trying to make it appear that the
> Israelis are simply destroying civilian and not military targets, that
> it's flat-out murder, a la the Russian attack upon Ukraine.

Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to take their lies as truth. Even
the media has been unusually careful to say that the numbers come from
the Gaza Ministry of Health - which should already be a red flag - and
they even often add a phrase that reminds people that they are an agency
of the Hamas government - but a lot of the protesters (at least) seem to
regard those numbers as unquestionable truth. I'd really like to see
news readers do eye rolls as they trot out those numbers just to make it
REALLY clear how dubious those numbers are but I suppose they are
worried about being murdered by "activists"....

The other thing the media conspicuously fails to do is mention how much
effort the IDF makes to warn people in the vicinity that a bombing raid
is coming via phone calls, air-dropped leaflets, etc. etc.

--
Rhino

On 2023-12-28 2:04 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 09:51:54 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are amongst
>> the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of health
>> in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
>> gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.
>
> Ditto.
>
> Is _anybody_ less than totally clear that HAMAS' #1 goal is to attempt
> to destroy Israel at any cost and #2 is to make them look as bad as
> possible 24x7x365?
>
> They're even currently calling the Israelis "aggressors" - which the
> usual suspects are aping - which is rather remarkable since it assumes
> people have forgotten what happened October 7th.
>
> I'm sorry HAMAS, there is no way in hell Israeli troops would be in
> Gaza right now had you done nothing at all on Oct 7th or subsequently
> and anything different is a blatant lie. And while there have been
> Palestinian casualties, none have been kidnapped or tortured much less
> raped or beheaded.
>
> (And I'm NOT particularly sympathetic to the Gazan civilians since
> they're the ones who voluntarily put these butchers in power in the
> first place)
>
> And when the shooting finally stops the Israeli government needs to
> make a flat out statement saying they will never again exchange
> prisoners on other than a 1 for 1 basis unless it's ALL prisoners for
> ALL prisoners. This has been going on for 40+ years and it's a big
> part of why PLO and HAMAS keep doing their atrocities since that's how
> they get their gunmen out - by commiting war crimes against civilians.
>
> At least the one thing we now know for sure is that the ONLY solution
> that HAMAS will find 'acceptable' is the Final Solution.

And yet our politicians, even Poilievre, state their support for a
two-state solution. That option has been on the table umpteen times
since WWII and each and every time, the Palestinians walked away,
effectively saying "no thanks". What makes ANYONE think this is still a
viable solution?

--
Rhino

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:30:45 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>On 2023-12-28 2:04 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 09:51:54 -0500, Rhino
>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are amongst
>>> the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of health
>>> in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
>>> gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.
>>
>> Ditto.
>>
>> Is _anybody_ less than totally clear that HAMAS' #1 goal is to attempt
>> to destroy Israel at any cost and #2 is to make them look as bad as
>> possible 24x7x365?
>>
>> They're even currently calling the Israelis "aggressors" - which the
>> usual suspects are aping - which is rather remarkable since it assumes
>> people have forgotten what happened October 7th.
>>
>> I'm sorry HAMAS, there is no way in hell Israeli troops would be in
>> Gaza right now had you done nothing at all on Oct 7th or subsequently
>> and anything different is a blatant lie. And while there have been
>> Palestinian casualties, none have been kidnapped or tortured much less
>> raped or beheaded.
>>
>> (And I'm NOT particularly sympathetic to the Gazan civilians since
>> they're the ones who voluntarily put these butchers in power in the
>> first place)
>>
>> And when the shooting finally stops the Israeli government needs to
>> make a flat out statement saying they will never again exchange
>> prisoners on other than a 1 for 1 basis unless it's ALL prisoners for
>> ALL prisoners. This has been going on for 40+ years and it's a big
>> part of why PLO and HAMAS keep doing their atrocities since that's how
>> they get their gunmen out - by commiting war crimes against civilians.
>>
>> At least the one thing we now know for sure is that the ONLY solution
>> that HAMAS will find 'acceptable' is the Final Solution.
>
>And yet our politicians, even Poilievre, state their support for a
>two-state solution. That option has been on the table umpteen times
>since WWII and each and every time, the Palestinians walked away,
>effectively saying "no thanks". What makes ANYONE think this is still a
>viable solution?

It's the only viable solution. The world isn't going to accept the
killing of all the Palestinians, and Israel isn't going away. The
problem is getting to that viable solution which may take decades
more.

On 2023-12-28 3:53 PM, shawn wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:30:45 -0500, Rhino
> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-12-28 2:04 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 09:51:54 -0500, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are amongst
>>>> the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of health
>>>> in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
>>>> gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.
>>>
>>> Ditto.
>>>
>>> Is _anybody_ less than totally clear that HAMAS' #1 goal is to attempt
>>> to destroy Israel at any cost and #2 is to make them look as bad as
>>> possible 24x7x365?
>>>
>>> They're even currently calling the Israelis "aggressors" - which the
>>> usual suspects are aping - which is rather remarkable since it assumes
>>> people have forgotten what happened October 7th.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry HAMAS, there is no way in hell Israeli troops would be in
>>> Gaza right now had you done nothing at all on Oct 7th or subsequently
>>> and anything different is a blatant lie. And while there have been
>>> Palestinian casualties, none have been kidnapped or tortured much less
>>> raped or beheaded.
>>>
>>> (And I'm NOT particularly sympathetic to the Gazan civilians since
>>> they're the ones who voluntarily put these butchers in power in the
>>> first place)
>>>
>>> And when the shooting finally stops the Israeli government needs to
>>> make a flat out statement saying they will never again exchange
>>> prisoners on other than a 1 for 1 basis unless it's ALL prisoners for
>>> ALL prisoners. This has been going on for 40+ years and it's a big
>>> part of why PLO and HAMAS keep doing their atrocities since that's how
>>> they get their gunmen out - by commiting war crimes against civilians.
>>>
>>> At least the one thing we now know for sure is that the ONLY solution
>>> that HAMAS will find 'acceptable' is the Final Solution.
>>
>> And yet our politicians, even Poilievre, state their support for a
>> two-state solution. That option has been on the table umpteen times
>> since WWII and each and every time, the Palestinians walked away,
>> effectively saying "no thanks". What makes ANYONE think this is still a
>> viable solution?
>
> It's the only viable solution. The world isn't going to accept the
> killing of all the Palestinians, and Israel isn't going away. The
> problem is getting to that viable solution which may take decades
> more.

There *are* options beyond those you've cited, including persuading
other countries to take in the Palestinians, perhaps with the aid of
financial renumeration. Preferably, these would be other Arab countries
where they would "fit" culturally and linguistically.

--
Rhino

On 12/28/2023 6:14 PM, Rhino wrote:
> On 2023-12-28 3:53 PM, shawn wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:30:45 -0500, Rhino
>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2023-12-28 2:04 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 09:51:54 -0500, Rhino
>>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are
>>>>> amongst
>>>>> the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of
>>>>> health
>>>>> in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
>>>>> gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.
>>>>
>>>> Ditto.
>>>>
>>>> Is _anybody_ less than totally clear that HAMAS' #1 goal is to attempt
>>>> to destroy Israel at any cost and #2 is to make them look as bad as
>>>> possible 24x7x365?
>>>>
>>>> They're even currently calling the  Israelis "aggressors" - which the
>>>> usual suspects are aping - which is rather remarkable since it assumes
>>>> people have forgotten what happened October 7th.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sorry HAMAS, there is no way in hell Israeli troops would be in
>>>> Gaza right  now had you done nothing at all on Oct 7th or subsequently
>>>> and anything different is a blatant lie. And while there have been
>>>> Palestinian casualties, none have been kidnapped or tortured much less
>>>> raped or beheaded.
>>>>
>>>> (And I'm NOT particularly sympathetic to the Gazan civilians since
>>>> they're the ones who voluntarily put these butchers in power in the
>>>> first place)
>>>>
>>>> And when the shooting finally stops the Israeli government needs to
>>>> make a flat out statement saying they will never again exchange
>>>> prisoners on other than a 1 for 1 basis unless it's ALL prisoners for
>>>> ALL prisoners. This has been going on for 40+ years and it's a big
>>>> part of why PLO and HAMAS keep doing their atrocities since that's how
>>>> they get their gunmen out - by commiting war crimes against civilians.
>>>>
>>>> At least the one thing we now know for sure is that the ONLY solution
>>>> that HAMAS will find 'acceptable' is the Final Solution.
>>>
>>> And yet our politicians, even Poilievre, state their support for a
>>> two-state solution. That option has been on the table umpteen times
>>> since WWII and each and every time, the Palestinians walked away,
>>> effectively saying "no thanks". What makes ANYONE think this is still a
>>> viable solution?
>>
>> It's the only viable solution. The world isn't going to accept the
>> killing of all the Palestinians, and Israel isn't going away. The
>> problem is getting to that viable solution which may take decades
>> more.
>
> There *are* options beyond those you've cited, including persuading
> other countries to take in the Palestinians, perhaps with the aid of
> financial renumeration. Preferably, these would be other Arab countries
> where they would "fit" culturally and linguistically.

Take in a group hellbent on provoking the region's only nuclear power?
That remuneration better be considerable...

Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>On 2023-12-27 10:32 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
>>Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>>>>. . .

>>>Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are amongst
>>>the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of health
>>>in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
>>>gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.

>>We know the numbers aren't real. They conflate casualties and deaths of
>>combatants with noncombatants, even if we assume the aggregate totals
>>aren't being exaggerated. They are trying to make it appear that the
>>Israelis are simply destroying civilian and not military targets, that
>>it's flat-out murder, a la the Russian attack upon Ukraine.

>Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to take their lies as truth. Even
>the media has been unusually careful to say that the numbers come from
>the Gaza Ministry of Health - which should already be a red flag - and
>they even often add a phrase that reminds people that they are an agency
>of the Hamas government - but a lot of the protesters (at least) seem to
>regard those numbers as unquestionable truth. I'd really like to see
>news readers do eye rolls as they trot out those numbers just to make it
>REALLY clear how dubious those numbers are but I suppose they are
>worried about being murdered by "activists"....

>The other thing the media conspicuously fails to do is mention how much
>effort the IDF makes to warn people in the vicinity that a bombing raid
>is coming via phone calls, air-dropped leaflets, etc. etc.

I am unhappy in the extreme with the very high number of civilian
casualties and deaths because it plays Hamas' game. The Israelis look
absolutely terrible. This is exactly what Hamas wanted.

But I will not believe for a minute that there are zero combatants nor
that what the Israelis have been targetting aren't military targets.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 18:57:54 -0500, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
wrote:

>On 12/28/2023 6:14 PM, Rhino wrote:
>> On 2023-12-28 3:53 PM, shawn wrote:
>>> On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:30:45 -0500, Rhino
>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-12-28 2:04 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 09:51:54 -0500, Rhino
>>>>> <no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore, we have no idea what the real casualty numbers are
>>>>>> amongst
>>>>>> the people in Gaza. The numbers we get come from the ministry of
>>>>>> health
>>>>>> in Gaza WHICH IS PART OF THE HAMAS-LED GOVERNMENT. I would be utterly
>>>>>> gobsmacked if they didn't exaggerate the numbers dramatically.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ditto.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is _anybody_ less than totally clear that HAMAS' #1 goal is to attempt
>>>>> to destroy Israel at any cost and #2 is to make them look as bad as
>>>>> possible 24x7x365?
>>>>>
>>>>> They're even currently calling the  Israelis "aggressors" - which the
>>>>> usual suspects are aping - which is rather remarkable since it assumes
>>>>> people have forgotten what happened October 7th.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sorry HAMAS, there is no way in hell Israeli troops would be in
>>>>> Gaza right  now had you done nothing at all on Oct 7th or subsequently
>>>>> and anything different is a blatant lie. And while there have been
>>>>> Palestinian casualties, none have been kidnapped or tortured much less
>>>>> raped or beheaded.
>>>>>
>>>>> (And I'm NOT particularly sympathetic to the Gazan civilians since
>>>>> they're the ones who voluntarily put these butchers in power in the
>>>>> first place)
>>>>>
>>>>> And when the shooting finally stops the Israeli government needs to
>>>>> make a flat out statement saying they will never again exchange
>>>>> prisoners on other than a 1 for 1 basis unless it's ALL prisoners for
>>>>> ALL prisoners. This has been going on for 40+ years and it's a big
>>>>> part of why PLO and HAMAS keep doing their atrocities since that's how
>>>>> they get their gunmen out - by commiting war crimes against civilians.
>>>>>
>>>>> At least the one thing we now know for sure is that the ONLY solution
>>>>> that HAMAS will find 'acceptable' is the Final Solution.
>>>>
>>>> And yet our politicians, even Poilievre, state their support for a
>>>> two-state solution. That option has been on the table umpteen times
>>>> since WWII and each and every time, the Palestinians walked away,
>>>> effectively saying "no thanks". What makes ANYONE think this is still a
>>>> viable solution?
>>>
>>> It's the only viable solution. The world isn't going to accept the
>>> killing of all the Palestinians, and Israel isn't going away. The
>>> problem is getting to that viable solution which may take decades
>>> more.
>>
>> There *are* options beyond those you've cited, including persuading
>> other countries to take in the Palestinians, perhaps with the aid of
>> financial renumeration. Preferably, these would be other Arab countries
>> where they would "fit" culturally and linguistically.
>
>Take in a group hellbent on provoking the region's only nuclear power?
>That remuneration better be considerable...

Yeah, that's never going to happen. If there were a few hundred
thousand it might work but with the millions that need to be relocated
I don't see that ever happening.

shawn <nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:
>Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:30:45 -0500, Rhino <no_offline_contact@example.com>:

>>>. . .

>>And yet our politicians, even Poilievre, state their support for a
>>two-state solution. That option has been on the table umpteen times
>>since WWII and each and every time, the Palestinians walked away,
>>effectively saying "no thanks". What makes ANYONE think this is still a
>>viable solution?

>It's the only viable solution. The world isn't going to accept the
>killing of all the Palestinians, and Israel isn't going away. The
>problem is getting to that viable solution which may take decades
>more.

Of course the world accepts the killing of all the Palestinians. They
are the Jews of the Arab world. They keep shipping weapons to the insane
Hamas and the even more radical groups that are somewhat allied with
them. It wasn't just Iran, but the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt when they
briefly held the government.

But the two-state solution was rejected with the partition in 1948, at
Oslo, at Dayton, and time and time again. The Palestinian leaders
rejected it and will always reject it.

What does peace look like? They have to believe in it.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:19:31 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>I'm still not sure if you realize that you misstated the start date of
>the invasion of the Soviet Union in your original post by placing it in
>January 1945. I *know* you simply misspoke so don't think I'm trying to
>educate you :-)
>
If you think I was saying that you definitely misread me.

The significance of January 1945 was NOT that that was when Hitler
invaded Russia but rather the first time in the war where Soviet
battlefield casualties were less than German battlefield casualties.

And I pointed out that by Jan 1945 the battle was NOT on Soviet
territory. (The last fighting on prewar Soviet territory was sometime
on October 1944. If you count the Baltic states as "Soviet" - I don't
- I'm going on the 1 Sept 1939 boundaries when WW2 actually started
and when Stalin was allied with Hitler - there were German troops
there till the final surrender. There was a major evacuation (e.g.
Dunkirk sized) of German troops and civilians from the Baltic states
on 8 May 1945 the day before the final surrender to the Red Army.

Given the proportion of German POWs who survived Soviet captivity
(mostly in the Gulag) taking extraordinary efforts to evacuate troops
and civilians by sea was a VERY rational move. Can't remember the
percentage but it was under 10% and of course those who survivedSoviet
captivity were sent to East Germany not the west.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:19:31 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>I've read Gulag Archipelago three times but I can't recall which volume
>was the one where he mentioned his own military service. I would
>certainly not dispute anything Solzhenitsyn said, whichever volume he
>said it in! I'm pretty sure he was arrested in February and by the time
>the war in Europe was over, I believe he was in the notorious Lubyanka
>prison. Or maybe he had already been convicted and sent to his first
>camp. In any case, he didn't get to dance in the streets and kiss pretty
>girls like the rest of the surviving Soviet citizenry on VE Day.

For me the best part of volume 3 of the Gulag Archipelago was the
section where he re-tells the joke about Stalin that got him arrested
in East Prussia in Jan 1945. Given who ruled in the Kremlin, I can see
why that joke got him arrested when told in wartime.

Regretably I've forgotten the joke and don't feel like paging through
500+ pages of the Gulag Archipelago vol 3 just to find it.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:30:45 -0500, Rhino
<no_offline_contact@example.com> wrote:

>> At least the one thing we now know for sure is that the ONLY solution
>> that HAMAS will find 'acceptable' is the Final Solution.
>
>And yet our politicians, even Poilievre, state their support for a
>two-state solution. That option has been on the table umpteen times
>since WWII and each and every time, the Palestinians walked away,
>effectively saying "no thanks". What makes ANYONE think this is still a
>viable solution?

I'm inclined to believe the mainstream PLO _would_ live with a 2 state
solution particularly if it came with industrial aid from the Gulf
states.

I say again folks like HAMAS will accept nothing but the Final
Solution (and I'm capitalizing the term in insure no one will
misunderstand what I mean) and they take their orders from Teheran.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:53:17 -0500, shawn
<nanoflower@notforg.m.a.i.l.com> wrote:

>It's the only viable solution. The world isn't going to accept the
>killing of all the Palestinians, and Israel isn't going away. The
>problem is getting to that viable solution which may take decades
>more.

While I agree with you, there is no lasting peace at all in the cards
as long as HAMAS remains as a viable force. Without the complete
emasculation of HAMAS there is no long term peace possible since the
HAMAS "peace plan" is the peace of the grave - I say again HAMAS seeks
genocide.

And that probably means the Iranian regime as well.