On 2/14/24 5:05 AM, FPP wrote:
> On 2/13/24 11:31 AM, moviePig wrote:
>> On 2/13/2024 9:51 AM, FPP wrote:
>>> On 2/13/24 5:07 AM, trotsky wrote:
>>>> On 2/8/24 8:27 PM, FPP wrote:
>>>>> On 2/6/24 1:07 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 22:54:39 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
>>>>>> <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's strictly due to pressure by the Saudis and Gulf states.
>>>>>>>> Without
>>>>>>>> that the Gazans would be SOL.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's due to pressure?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oil money of course - and a surfeit of arms for terrorists via Iran.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The best way for Gaza to have had peace was what they had before Oct
>>>>>> 6th. Attacking in the way they did was guaranteed to promote the
>>>>>> "delenda est Gaza" mentality in Tel Aviv.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is anybody surprised that after the first week of the war that
>>>>>> would be the dominant Israeli attitude?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hamas leaders literally went on TV and promised another Oct 7, and
>>>>> another, and another...
>>>>>
>>>>> What choice does Israel have but to destroy Hamas?  If that means
>>>>> Gaza too, so be it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're just wrong.  That's like saying the Japanese deserved to have
>>>> two of their cities full of civilians destroyed because they
>>>> attacked a military target at Pearl Harbor.  Talk is cheap, and
>>>> terrorists are blowhards.  You lack both wisdom and humanity here.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not at all. I'm sympathetic... but Hamas has to die.  Period.
>>> Their leaders PROMISED another Oct 7, and another after that, and
>>> another after that.
>>>
>>> They'll keep doing it until they're dead.  So they're going to get
>>> dead... and so is anyone who is near them.  That's war.
>>>
>>> That's always been war.  Find me a war where the civillians don't pay.
>>> I'll wait.
>>
>> This sounds like practicalism vs. idealism.  Since both principles are
>> valid, maybe neither can be absolutist.
>
> I'm a realist.  Palestinians elected terrorists, and they ruined the
> country, turned around and used them as human shields to launch
> terrorist attacks against a vastly superior force.
>
> Then they took to the hills and live like billionaires, in comfort, away
> from the war.  Meanwhile, their people get pummeled into dust.
>
> Then they promised MORE attacks.  Sure, Bibi is a butcher,

Not good enough. Bibi also categorically rejects a two state solution,
which the rest of the free world supports. You call Hamas terrorists,
which they are, but Bibi is an ideological terrorist hiding behind being
an ally of the U.S.

but Hamas is
> making this easy for him. Nobody can stop what's going to happen except
> the Israelis.  They're not listening to us.
>
>

On 2/16/24 6:06 AM, trotsky wrote:
> On 2/14/24 5:05 AM, FPP wrote:
>> On 2/13/24 11:31 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>> On 2/13/2024 9:51 AM, FPP wrote:
>>>> On 2/13/24 5:07 AM, trotsky wrote:
>>>>> On 2/8/24 8:27 PM, FPP wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/6/24 1:07 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 22:54:39 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
>>>>>>> <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's strictly due to pressure by the Saudis and Gulf states.
>>>>>>>>> Without
>>>>>>>>> that the Gazans would be SOL.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's due to pressure?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oil money of course - and a surfeit of arms for terrorists via Iran.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The best way for Gaza to have had peace was what they had before Oct
>>>>>>> 6th. Attacking in the way they did was guaranteed to promote the
>>>>>>> "delenda est Gaza" mentality in Tel Aviv.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why is anybody surprised that after the first week of the war that
>>>>>>> would be the dominant Israeli attitude?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hamas leaders literally went on TV and promised another Oct 7, and
>>>>>> another, and another...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What choice does Israel have but to destroy Hamas?  If that means
>>>>>> Gaza too, so be it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You're just wrong.  That's like saying the Japanese deserved to
>>>>> have two of their cities full of civilians destroyed because they
>>>>> attacked a military target at Pearl Harbor.  Talk is cheap, and
>>>>> terrorists are blowhards.  You lack both wisdom and humanity here.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not at all. I'm sympathetic... but Hamas has to die.  Period.
>>>> Their leaders PROMISED another Oct 7, and another after that, and
>>>> another after that.
>>>>
>>>> They'll keep doing it until they're dead.  So they're going to get
>>>> dead... and so is anyone who is near them.  That's war.
>>>>
>>>> That's always been war.  Find me a war where the civillians don't pay.
>>>> I'll wait.
>>>
>>> This sounds like practicalism vs. idealism.  Since both principles
>>> are valid, maybe neither can be absolutist.
>>
>> I'm a realist.  Palestinians elected terrorists, and they ruined the
>> country, turned around and used them as human shields to launch
>> terrorist attacks against a vastly superior force.
>>
>> Then they took to the hills and live like billionaires, in comfort,
>> away from the war.  Meanwhile, their people get pummeled into dust.
>>
>> Then they promised MORE attacks.  Sure, Bibi is a butcher,
>
>
> Not good enough. Bibi also categorically rejects a two state solution,
> which the rest of the free world supports.  You call Hamas terrorists,
> which they are, but Bibi is an ideological terrorist hiding behind being
> an ally of the U.S.
>
>
> but Hamas is
>> making this easy for him. Nobody can stop what's going to happen
>> except the Israelis.  They're not listening to us.

There will be no peace because nobody in charge wants it. A 2 state
solution is the only real option... and Bibi rejects that, and Hamas
will just keep attacking whether they get one or not.

I'll say it again... Israel gave Arafat 95-98% of what he wanted and he
walked away from the deal. That was the nail in the coffin.

The PLO would not take yes for an answer, and now that deal is deader
than Arafat.

--
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind." - OC
Bible 25B.G.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek8kap93bmk0q5w/D%20U%20N%20E%20Part%20II.jpg?dl=0

Gracie, age 6.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0es3xolxka455iw/BetterThingsToDo.jpg?dl=0

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 09:10:42 -0500, FPP <fredp1571@gmail.com> wrote:

>There will be no peace because nobody in charge wants it. A 2 state
>solution is the only real option... and Bibi rejects that, and Hamas
>will just keep attacking whether they get one or not.
>
>I'll say it again... Israel gave Arafat 95-98% of what he wanted and he
>walked away from the deal. That was the nail in the coffin.
>
>The PLO would not take yes for an answer, and now that deal is deader
>than Arafat.
>
In fairness, violence between HAMAS and Israel DIDN'T start on Oct 7th
- going back at least 10 years HAMAS has been firing 200-1000 rockets
per month into Israel mostly to towns and kibbutzes close to Gaza but
occasionally to the bigger Israeli cities and towns.

Israel has said enough is enough and they are not going to accept
shelling month in and month out into the indefinite future
particularly if it means more raids of the sort that terrorized the
world. Meanwhile HAMAS is continuing with 'from the river to the sea'
mantra which means the destruction of Israel.

It is difficult to accept seriously a US President who is trying to
give Israel a decisive defeat in a war they didn't start and I for one
don't care if that's Biden's idea or the Saudi's. HAMAS jumps to
Teheran's drum and if this were to continue another decade I would
expect to see an eventual full scale Arab-Israeli war even bloodier
and nastier than either the war of 1947-48 (which was plenty nasty but
small) or 1973 (a much larger war which Israel won decisively by
crossing the Suez Canal).

If that happens a nuclear exchange between Jerusalem and Teheran is
not unthinkable and that's unthinkable.

I see no long term solution without the destruction of HAMAS - the
violence Israel has been 'taking' goes well back before October 7th
and until HAMAS sent troops into Israel Israel DIDN'T go 'over the
top'.

Iran further escalated by giving arms to the Houthis who apparently
are now targetting ships in the southern Red Sea including some that
were headed for Iranian ports!

On 2/17/24 12:49 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 09:10:42 -0500, FPP <fredp1571@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There will be no peace because nobody in charge wants it. A 2 state
>> solution is the only real option... and Bibi rejects that, and Hamas
>> will just keep attacking whether they get one or not.
>>
>> I'll say it again... Israel gave Arafat 95-98% of what he wanted and he
>> walked away from the deal. That was the nail in the coffin.
>>
>> The PLO would not take yes for an answer, and now that deal is deader
>> than Arafat.
>>
> In fairness, violence between HAMAS and Israel DIDN'T start on Oct 7th
> - going back at least 10 years HAMAS has been firing 200-1000 rockets
> per month into Israel mostly to towns and kibbutzes close to Gaza but
> occasionally to the bigger Israeli cities and towns.
>
> Israel has said enough is enough and they are not going to accept
> shelling month in and month out into the indefinite future
> particularly if it means more raids of the sort that terrorized the
> world. Meanwhile HAMAS is continuing with 'from the river to the sea'
> mantra which means the destruction of Israel.
>
> It is difficult to accept seriously a US President who is trying to
> give Israel a decisive defeat in a war they didn't start and I for one
> don't care if that's Biden's idea or the Saudi's. HAMAS jumps to
> Teheran's drum and if this were to continue another decade I would
> expect to see an eventual full scale Arab-Israeli war even bloodier
> and nastier than either the war of 1947-48 (which was plenty nasty but
> small) or 1973 (a much larger war which Israel won decisively by
> crossing the Suez Canal).
>
> If that happens a nuclear exchange between Jerusalem and Teheran is
> not unthinkable and that's unthinkable.
>
> I see no long term solution without the destruction of HAMAS - the
> violence Israel has been 'taking' goes well back before October 7th
> and until HAMAS sent troops into Israel Israel DIDN'T go 'over the
> top'.
>
> Iran further escalated by giving arms to the Houthis who apparently
> are now targetting ships in the southern Red Sea including some that
> were headed for Iranian ports!
>

I noticed that's died down a bit, since they got a taste of the Big Red
Ass for a week or so.

Iran doesn't want real war with the US. They know they're to going
lose, and take a pounding and will set them back 20 years.

--
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind." - OC
Bible 25B.G.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek8kap93bmk0q5w/D%20U%20N%20E%20Part%20II.jpg?dl=0

Gracie, age 6.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0es3xolxka455iw/BetterThingsToDo.jpg?dl=0

On 2/8/24 8:27 PM, FPP wrote:
> On 2/6/24 1:07 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 22:54:39 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
>> <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> That's strictly due to pressure by the Saudis and Gulf states. Without
>>>> that the Gazans would be SOL.
>>>
>>> What's due to pressure?
>>
>> Oil money of course - and a surfeit of arms for terrorists via Iran.
>>
>> The best way for Gaza to have had peace was what they had before Oct
>> 6th. Attacking in the way they did was guaranteed to promote the
>> "delenda est Gaza" mentality in Tel Aviv.
>>
>> Why is anybody surprised that after the first week of the war that
>> would be the dominant Israeli attitude?
>>
>
> Hamas leaders literally went on TV and promised another Oct 7, and
> another, and another...
>
> What choice does Israel have but to destroy Hamas?  If that means Gaza
> too, so be it.

You're entitled to your opinion however misguided it may be. Biden is
finally criticizing Netanyahu, but you appear to be on board with his
bullshit. You put yourself in a weird predicament: do you have any
guidelines on when the genocide is okay and when it isn't? If Putin
goes into Ukraine and says "I want to annex Ukraine and if civilians die
that's okay." Is that a good reason too? If not why not?

On 3/22/24 4:27 PM, trotsky wrote:
> On 2/8/24 8:27 PM, FPP wrote:
>> On 2/6/24 1:07 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Mon, 5 Feb 2024 22:54:39 -0000 (UTC), "Adam H. Kerman"
>>> <ahk@chinet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> That's strictly due to pressure by the Saudis and Gulf states. Without
>>>>> that the Gazans would be SOL.
>>>>
>>>> What's due to pressure?
>>>
>>> Oil money of course - and a surfeit of arms for terrorists via Iran.
>>>
>>> The best way for Gaza to have had peace was what they had before Oct
>>> 6th. Attacking in the way they did was guaranteed to promote the
>>> "delenda est Gaza" mentality in Tel Aviv.
>>>
>>> Why is anybody surprised that after the first week of the war that
>>> would be the dominant Israeli attitude?
>>>
>>
>> Hamas leaders literally went on TV and promised another Oct 7, and
>> another, and another...
>>
>> What choice does Israel have but to destroy Hamas?  If that means Gaza
>> too, so be it.
>
>
> You're entitled to your opinion however misguided it may be. Biden is
> finally criticizing Netanyahu, but you appear to be on board with his
> bullshit.  You put yourself in a weird predicament: do you have any
> guidelines on when the genocide is okay and when it isn't?  If Putin
> goes into Ukraine and says "I want to annex Ukraine and if civilians die
> that's okay." Is that a good reason too?  If not why not?
>

Hamas massacred civillians and took hostages. They hide among their
civillians. Hamas is like ISIS. They need to be wiped out, and it
there's collateral damage, there's collateral damage. That's been every
war since Cain and Abel.

I'm on board with exterminating Hamas. Hamas is responsible, not
Israel. That being said, there are red lines, and Bibi is crossing them.

You have to take care not to exterminate civillians with the barbarians.
Bibi doesn't care who he kills.

So, no... Putin and Ukraine aren't the same thing at all. Ukraine poses
no threat to Russia, and did nothing to precipitate the invasion. Bibi
is a butcher, and he's going to butcher civilians.

--
"Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind." - OC
Bible 25B.G.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek8kap93bmk0q5w/D%20U%20N%20E%20Part%20II.jpg?dl=0

Gracie, age 6.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0es3xolxka455iw/BetterThingsToDo.jpg?dl=0

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 11:34:17 -0400, FPP <fredp1571@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hamas massacred civillians and took hostages. They hide among their
>civillians. Hamas is like ISIS. They need to be wiped out, and it
>there's collateral damage, there's collateral damage. That's been every
>war since Cain and Abel.
>
>I'm on board with exterminating Hamas. Hamas is responsible, not
>Israel. That being said, there are red lines, and Bibi is crossing them.
>
>You have to take care not to exterminate civillians with the barbarians.
> Bibi doesn't care who he kills.

I don't think that's entirely fair - the Israeli military could easily
quadruple casualties if they displayed even 1/4 of the ferocity HAMAS
has shown.

A big part of the problem is that HAMAS has spread the lie that ALL of
the casualties are civilians and has refused to publish separate
military and civilian casualty numbers to polish that myth.

And a lot of HAMAS fanbois have swallowed that claim hook line and
sinker.

>So, no... Putin and Ukraine aren't the same thing at all. Ukraine poses
>no threat to Russia, and did nothing to precipitate the invasion. Bibi
>is a butcher, and he's going to butcher civilians.

Before October 7th Israel wasn't really a threat to HAMAS either other
than HAMAS' "from the river to the sea" rhetoric which is explicitly a
threat to destroy Israel and her inhabitants including Arab
"collaborators" who are part of Israel.

Israel and HAMAS had a ceasefire with no Israeli desire at all to
violate the ceasefire.

Now the Israeli view is almost Cato-esque (Cato was the Roman senator
who ended every one of his speeches on ANY subject for 10 years with
the phrase "Delenda est Carthago" - Carthage must be destroyed) and
after the rapes, murders and mutilations of October 7th / 8th one can
hardly blame them.

What do YOU think would be the result if either Canada or Mexico
entered the US and spent two days killing, raping and mutilating every
American they could get their hands on? And then mobilized their
allies against America. Obvious answer right?

Even if they took no hostages at all.

And I very much doubt the US military would be as careful with these
Canadians or Mexicans as the Israelis have been with Gazans.

Particularly if they were receiving foreign aid from America's
greatest enemy in the region (in Israel that would be Iran which has
been supplying every Arab terrorist group in the region that wants
missiles to fire at Israel and funding)

My personal feelings on this are that it needs to stop and soon - but
Israel has a right to ensure they won't have to go all through this
all over again in 2 or 3 years. Because of all of Israel's wars over
75 years this has been by far the most barbaric - and almost entirely
by one side.