The news is at the NYTimes and elsewhere, most likely. The idea that Zweden would be with the NYPhil for a shorter span than Alan Gilbert is quite a punchline for all the hoopla about this marriage. He denies in interest in the Concertgebouw, but... why else would he do this?

So who would you like to see at the NYPhil?

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:34:48 PM UTC-5, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> The news is at the NYTimes and elsewhere, most likely. The idea that Zweden would be with the NYPhil for a shorter span than Alan Gilbert is quite a punchline for all the hoopla about this marriage. He denies in interest in the Concertgebouw, but... why else would he do this?
>
> So who would you like to see at the NYPhil?

Reading the whole article, you also wonder if Jaap was just a bull enough to find the NYPhil not submissive enough. I talked with someone who played under him and they found him, putting it politely, rather unpleasant. So maybe it isn't the RCO. But why else would he announce give up both his main appointments?

On Thursday, 16 September 2021 at 12:50:11 UTC+10, mswd...com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:34:48 PM UTC-5, mswd...com wrote:
> > The news is at the NYTimes and elsewhere, most likely. The idea that Zweden would be with the NYPhil for a shorter span than Alan Gilbert is quite a punchline for all the hoopla about this marriage. He denies in interest in the Concertgebouw, but... why else would he do this?
> >
> > So who would you like to see at the NYPhil?

They won't get Rattle which should relieve everyone.

> Reading the whole article, you also wonder if Jaap was just a bull enough to find the NYPhil not submissive enough. I >talked with someone who played under him and they found him, putting it politely, rather unpleasant. So maybe it isn't >the RCO. But why else would he announce give up both his main appointments?

He has said in a recent NY Times article that he isn't interested in becoming chief of the RCO, but who knows really? As for his unpleasantness, Van Zweden is very direct, and probably hurts unwittingly some delicate feelings..

This is an older article about Jaap van Zweden.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/01/arts/music/jaap-van-zweden-philharmonics-maestro-to-be-sharpens-his-baton.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

Ray Hall, Taree

For some reason Slipped Disc has nothing on Van Zweden's stepping down, which probably means it's not that easy to find out what's going on.

I would not be too sure the Concertgebouw would have Van Zweden. Not because he's no good, but they seem to be very much into no-conflict, gentle fine-tuners since Chailly.

On 15 Sep 2021 raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

>> > The news is at the NYTimes and elsewhere, most likely. The idea that
>> > Zweden would be with the NYPhil for a shorter span than Alan Gilbert

The news has even reached the Idaho Statesman. Must be important.

www.idahostatesman.com/entertainment/article254271983.html

Why such a fuss, I wonder. His contract expires in 2024, when he's 63.
Perhaps he wants to work closer to home.

>> > So who would you like to see at the NYPhil?
> They won't get Rattle which should relieve everyone.

Everyone? Perhaps not the Brits?
However:

www.theguardian.com/music/2021/jan/16/simon-rattle-applies-for-german-
citizenship-brexit

>> I talked with someone
>> who played under him and they found him, putting it politely, rather
>> unpleasant. So maybe it isn't >the RCO. But why else would he announce
>> give up both his main appointments?

> He has said in a recent NY Times article that he isn't interested in
> becoming chief of the RCO, but who knows really? As for his
> unpleasantness, Van Zweden is very direct, and probably hurts
> unwittingly some delicate feelings.

I don't think the RCO want to wait until 2024.

'Very direct"?

www.learndutch.org/dutch-culture/dutch-directness-how-to-deal-with-the-
dutch/

www.bbc.com/travel/article/20180131-where-dutch-directness-comes-from

Directness can often simplify matters a great deal and safe time. Time
which can be used to rehearse and make an orchestra better for instance.

Chris

I can't help but notice the Dutch reports on Van Zweden stepping down don't even mention any connection to the RCO looking for a conductor.

Op donderdag 16 september 2021 om 09:31:51 UTC+2 schreef Chris J.:
> On 15 Sep 2021 raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> > The news is at the NYTimes and elsewhere, most likely. The idea that
> >> > Zweden would be with the NYPhil for a shorter span than Alan Gilbert
> The news has even reached the Idaho Statesman. Must be important.
>
> www.idahostatesman.com/entertainment/article254271983.html
>
> Why such a fuss, I wonder. His contract expires in 2024, when he's 63.
> Perhaps he wants to work closer to home.
> >> > So who would you like to see at the NYPhil?
>
> > They won't get Rattle which should relieve everyone.
> Everyone? Perhaps not the Brits?
> However:
>
> www.theguardian.com/music/2021/jan/16/simon-rattle-applies-for-german-
> citizenship-brexit
> >> I talked with someone
> >> who played under him and they found him, putting it politely, rather
> >> unpleasant. So maybe it isn't >the RCO. But why else would he announce
> >> give up both his main appointments?
>
> > He has said in a recent NY Times article that he isn't interested in
> > becoming chief of the RCO, but who knows really? As for his
> > unpleasantness, Van Zweden is very direct, and probably hurts
> > unwittingly some delicate feelings.
> I don't think the RCO want to wait until 2024.
>
> 'Very direct"?
>
> www.learndutch.org/dutch-culture/dutch-directness-how-to-deal-with-the-
> dutch/
>
> www.bbc.com/travel/article/20180131-where-dutch-directness-comes-from
>
> Directness can often simplify matters a great deal and safe time. Time
> which can be used to rehearse and make an orchestra better for instance.
>
> Chris

In my experience, there is no positive correlation between Dutch directness and unpleasantness. You may have to get used to it, but it is never really painful. There is, however, a positive correlation between Dutch rudeness (treasured here as the US treasures the right to bear arms) and unpleasantness.

Henk

On 16 Sep 2021 Herman wrote:

> I can't help but notice the Dutch reports on Van Zweden stepping down
> don't even mention any connection to the RCO looking for a conductor.

So who are the likely candidates?

Chris

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 5:31:51 PM UTC+10, Chris J. wrote:
> On 15 Sep 2021 raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> > The news is at the NYTimes and elsewhere, most likely. The idea that
> >> > Zweden would be with the NYPhil for a shorter span than Alan Gilbert
> The news has even reached the Idaho Statesman. Must be important.
>
> www.idahostatesman.com/entertainment/article254271983.html
>
> Why such a fuss, I wonder. His contract expires in 2024, when he's 63.
> Perhaps he wants to work closer to home.
> >> > So who would you like to see at the NYPhil?
>
> > They won't get Rattle which should relieve everyone.
> Everyone? Perhaps not the Brits?

Oh, I don't know. He makes all the right liberal noises. He's avoided conducting the Last Night of the P(r)oms because he thinks there are jingoistic elements there, and he's violently anti-Brexit, hence the change in nationality. As we know, there are no jingoistic elements in American culture are there now? Apparently he got on well with the Philadelphia Orchestra, and it was even rumoured that he was offered a post there, but turned it down, according to Wikipedia anyway.

There have been reservations about his tenure at Berlin, of course:

<https://www.theguardian.com/music/2003/sep/20/classicalmusicandopera>

What is odd here is that The Guardian is a British newspaper and a lefty one at that. Perhaps British opinion is not quite as solidly jingoistic as people like to imagine?

> www.theguardian.com/music/2021/jan/16/simon-rattle-applies-for-german-
> citizenship-brexit

Three cheers for Sir Simon! He's leaving a country steeped in colonialism and antisemitism and going to a country which has never had any expansionist ambitions whatsoever and where antisemitism is unknown.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 2:52:52 AM UTC-7, Chris J. wrote:
> On 16 Sep 2021 Herman wrote:
>
> > I can't help but notice the Dutch reports on Van Zweden stepping down
> > don't even mention any connection to the RCO looking for a conductor.
> So who are the likely candidates?
>
> Chris
Dudamel must certainly be on the list.

On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 7:03:06 PM UTC-5, E. Robles wrote:
> On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 2:52:52 AM UTC-7, Chris J. wrote:
> > On 16 Sep 2021 Herman wrote:
> >
> > > I can't help but notice the Dutch reports on Van Zweden stepping down
> > > don't even mention any connection to the RCO looking for a conductor.
> > So who are the likely candidates?
> >
> > Chris
> Dudamel must certainly be on the list.

I really don't know what they want, but they did seem to like Jansons, and Jansons did nearly everything in the central rep (can't recall any Wagner or Nielsen, but I feel like I've seen almost everything else.). Gatti seemed to have similar pretensions even if there weren't as many recordings. Is this Gustavo's profile?

I'm having a very hard time imagining Dudamel being a serious contender for the RCO chief conductorship, but what do I know? TBH, although I live pretty close by, the RCO has stopped being my favorite orchestra since Mariss Jansons, who turned the orchestra into something pretty close to Classic FM in terms of programming.
When I think of Jansons I see his emaciated figure trying to beat his way out of Louis Andriessen's Mysteriën, a supergentle late work commissioned by the orchestra. He was clearly thinking 'why can't I just do Tchaikovsky of Bruckner for the nth time instead of this crazy new stuff' - unaware that there was a time when Bruckner was crazy new stuff, too.
The way I look at it, the appointment of Jaap van Zweden is a no-brainer. The man has deep roots in the orchestra and is a fantastic genuine musician-conductor, rather than a star baton flipper. His programming in New York was terrific; if he'd continue like this the RCO would become an exciting orchestra once again, rather than this plush beauty machine it has made of itself, a dying museum institution.
The RCO had an international tour in 2009 with Dudamel, which is always referred to as having been 'great', so I guess he passed the chemistry test, which usually, with orchestras means he just let them be.
We'll see. They might as well spend some more time without a chief conductor. The Vienna is doing to bad without one...

The Vienna isn't doing too bad without one...

Looking at Dudamel's discography and repertoire I see a lot of big splashy pieces, like the Verdi Requiem and Mahler 8. Mahler 8 is not a fun piece to play for an orchestra.
A lot of Dudamel's signature music is of an extravert loud sort, allowing for a lot of conductor jumps and sweat, that doesn't align with the RCO's dna. But hey, you never know....

Herman a écrit :
> I'm having a very hard time imagining Dudamel being a serious contender for
> the RCO chief conductorship

Dudamel became conductor of the Paris Opera Orchestra...

On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 9:37:45 AM UTC+2, MELMOTH wrote:
> Herman a écrit :
> > I'm having a very hard time imagining Dudamel being a serious contender for
> > the RCO chief conductorship
> Dudamel became conductor of the Paris Opera Orchestra...

I know. However, many top conductors do two jobs, just to pay the rent...

Mariss Jansons was conducting the RCO and the BRSO at the same time, and it was no secret he liked the latter better.

On 17 Sep 2021 Herman wrote:

> I'm having a very hard time imagining Dudamel being a serious contender
> for the RCO chief conductorship, but what do I know? TBH, although I
> live pretty close by, the RCO has stopped being my favorite orchestra
> since Mariss Jansons, who turned the orchestra into something pretty
> close to Classic FM in terms of programming.

A recent rumour, heard by a Dutch friend of the neighbour of someone who
knows an employee of the RCO who heard something not meant for his ears.
Or something like that. Or perhaps simply:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/17/arts/music/review-concertgebouw-daniel-
harding.html

https://riga-jurmala.com/programme/concertgebouworkest-daniel-harding-
yefim-bronfman-piano/

Daniel Harding?

Chris

On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 12:53:19 PM UTC+2, Chris J. wrote:

>
> Daniel Harding?
>
> Chris

Harding has done a successful international tour with the RCO, which is a good way of getting to know a conductor.

On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 5:53:19 AM UTC-5, Chris J. wrote:
> Daniel Harding?

Harding's commitments are thin enough that if they wanted to announce him, they could have done so already.

According to an article about possible future chief conductors of the Concertgebouw I read last year they don't want Van Zweden or Dudamel, and earlier this year I heard on the radio that Iván Fischer had turned them down. Nelsons extended his contracts in Boston and Leipzig, so he's out too.

For me the last great principal conductor they had was Chailly, but apparently they had grown tired of him, or at least that's what I heard on the radio some time ago. No idea if that's true. Jansons wasn't a favourite of mine, and neither was his successor, Gatti.

On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 8:51:33 PM UTC-5, J.A.W. wrote:
> According to an article about possible future chief conductors of the Concertgebouw I read last year they don't want Van Zweden or Dudamel, and earlier this year I heard on the radio that Iván Fischer had turned them down. Nelsons extended his contracts in Boston and Leipzig, so he's out too.
>
> For me the last great principal conductor they had was Chailly, but apparently they had grown tired of him, or at least that's what I heard on the radio some time ago. No idea if that's true. Jansons wasn't a favourite of mine, and neither was his successor, Gatti.

Fits with what I've heard. But try to explain Zweden giving up New York and Hong Kong with nothing else awaiting him. Is it perhaps the case that the Concertgebouw didn't want him because they wanted an exclusive commitment? Given the way he was marketed as a god of music in New York, he has to be moving up, or else this is one of the oddest career trajectories ever.

On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 12:53:19 AM UTC-10, Chris J. wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2021 Herman wrote:
>
> > I'm having a very hard time imagining Dudamel being a serious contender
> > for the RCO chief conductorship, but what do I know? TBH, although I
> > live pretty close by, the RCO has stopped being my favorite orchestra
> > since Mariss Jansons, who turned the orchestra into something pretty
> > close to Classic FM in terms of programming.
> A recent rumour, heard by a Dutch friend of the neighbour of someone who
> knows an employee of the RCO who heard something not meant for his ears.
> Or something like that. Or perhaps simply:
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/17/arts/music/review-concertgebouw-daniel-
> harding.html
>
> https://riga-jurmala.com/programme/concertgebouworkest-daniel-harding-
> yefim-bronfman-piano/
>
> Daniel Harding?
>
> Chris

Harding has opened the last two Concertgebouw Orchestra seasons.

On Sunday, September 19, 2021 at 6:04:40 AM UTC+2, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, September 18, 2021 at 8:51:33 PM UTC-5, J.A.W. wrote:
> > According to an article about possible future chief conductors of the Concertgebouw I read last year they don't want Van Zweden or Dudamel, and earlier this year I heard on the radio that Iván Fischer had turned them down. Nelsons extended his contracts in Boston and Leipzig, so he's out too.
> >
> > For me the last great principal conductor they had was Chailly, but apparently they had grown tired of him, or at least that's what I heard on the radio some time ago. No idea if that's true. Jansons wasn't a favourite of mine, and neither was his successor, Gatti.
> Fits with what I've heard. But try to explain Zweden giving up New York and Hong Kong with nothing else awaiting him. Is it perhaps the case that the Concertgebouw didn't want him because they wanted an exclusive commitment? Given the way he was marketed as a god of music in New York, he has to be moving up, or else this is one of the oddest career trajectories ever.

I largely share JAW's assessment. Dudamel and Van Zweden wil likely remain guest conductors. I too think that Chailly was the last interesting chief conductor. And, no, not a single top orchestra demands an exclusive commitment, which would, among other things mean they'd be looking at the same guy and stick all year, and they don't want this. That's what provincial orchestras do.
It is not out of the question that Van Zweden quit for the reasons he's given. Sometimes people are honest and direct, and Van Zweden could well be one of those guys...
The Concertgebouw doesn't pick its conductors based on rational reasons. There has to be chemistry, but other than that it's anyone's guess why they chose, for instance, Gatti, who was definitely not their style of conductor, in terms of sound ideal and repertoire. I don't share Lebrecht's kneejerk pessimism*, but I do think the orchestra should really gets its stuff in shape. All of the people who have guided the orchestra through the eighties to aughts have retired now, and now there are just managers who reflexively say "Bruckner / Mahler!" when asked what the orchestra is about. The French component, integral to the foundations of the orchestra's sound is largely forgotten.
Also the musicians get paid ridiculously low salaries. Any other orchestra pays at least twice what you're getting in Amsterdam, and Amsterdam has long ceased to have a low cost of living. The current model is that guest conductors get enormous fees while the orchestra members get paid mid-level civil servant salaries. This is untenable in the long run.

* Lebrecht's idea that the RCO should have hung on to Haitink in the eighties is beyond ridiculous. Haitink needed to free himself from his Amsterdam roots and orchestras get tired of same old at some point. That's how it works. Lebrecht is talking like the proverbial armchair general who wants reality to conform to his cd collection.

I agree with Herman that they should pay more attention to their French component, like one of my favourite chief conductors from the past, Eduard van Beinum, and his successor, Haitink, did.

The musicians should indeed get higher wages, it's a disgrace what they're getting now. If Amsterdam wants to keep its world class status, something should be done about that sooner rather than later.

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 10:50:11 PM UTC-4, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 9:34:48 PM UTC-5, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The news is at the NYTimes and elsewhere, most likely. The idea that Zweden would be with the NYPhil for a shorter span than Alan Gilbert is quite a punchline for all the hoopla about this marriage. He denies in interest in the Concertgebouw, but... why else would he do this?
> >
> > So who would you like to see at the NYPhil?
> Reading the whole article, you also wonder if Jaap was just a bull enough to find the NYPhil not submissive enough. I talked with someone who played under him and they found him, putting it politely, rather unpleasant. So maybe it isn't the RCO. But why else would he announce give up both his main appointments?

Van Zweden and S. Chang going down that stupid staircase in the Concergebouw. One thing that's for sure if Itzhak Perlman was ever invited to play in that hall, he's not using that dumb staircase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpS_u5RvMpM