Just throwing this out there for all your opinions. Anti-vax is a worldwide protest movement right now. It goes into some fundamental questions about the individual versus the common good. Where do you stand on this?

Pro life.

Increasingly it's getting clear that the antivax mvt is a pro death mvt - of course pro other people dying. The idea is some people think they're invulnerable superhumans (the notion of being genetically superior to others is voiced quite ferequently), and they see this as a culling moment.

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 12:41:58 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> Pro life.
>
> Increasingly it's getting clear that the antivax mvt is a pro death mvt - of course pro other people dying. The idea is some people think they're invulnerable superhumans (the notion of being genetically superior to others is voiced quite ferequently), and they see this as a culling moment.

BTW I understand some people don't want to be vaccinated, perhaps because they grew up that way, it's usually a religious thing. My GF is that way, and I support her in that. But I can see that this part of antivax is being hijacked by the ultraright.

On 21 Nov 2021 Andy Evans wrote:

> Just throwing this out there for all your opinions. Anti-vax is a
> worldwide protest movement right now. It goes into some fundamental
> questions about the individual versus the common good. Where do you
> stand on this?

Anti-vaxxers are irrational, ignorant, anti-science, and very stupid.
Perhaps when I'm in a more gentle mood I could call these destructive
morons pitiable victims of bad education or gullible "social" media
addicts.

Chris

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 1:04:45 PM UTC, Chris J. wrote:
> On 21 Nov 2021 Andy Evans wrote:

> Anti-vaxxers are irrational, ignorant, anti-science, and very stupid.
> Perhaps when I'm in a more gentle mood I could call these destructive
> morons pitiable victims of bad education or gullible "social" media
> addicts.
.......................................
Bloody Hell!

I'd never take Covid injections (peddled me mid-Feb) with their >already known< heart/blood-clot issues after having/recovering from a truly massive Stroke.

Lifelong never been on Any 'medication' (nor taken the slightest 'precaution' -face-rags, et al, these near 2 years) so obviously have a different approach to those pre-disposed to accept the relentless indoctrination.

Presumably they believe "Pfizer macht frei": but the various injections will ultimately (there being no end-point for 'boosters') damage the immune system - making them more at risk - and more Big Pharma Dependant.

Best of luck!!

Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 12:34:26 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
> Just throwing this out there for all your opinions. Anti-vax is a worldwide protest movement right now. It goes into some fundamental questions about the individual versus the common good. Where do you stand on this?

After I had my second vaccination, the nurse said, "Now you are free!" Anti-vaxxers deny me that freedom, in the name of their freedom. As long as they only restrict my movements, it is not really a problem.
It does become a problem when their freedom is life-threatening to someone else. That is what is happening now.
I cannot (or don't want to) understand why Dutch politicians cannot agree on saving lives under these circumstances.

Henk

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:14:45 PM UTC+1, frankwm wrote:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 1:04:45 PM UTC, Chris J. wrote:
> > On 21 Nov 2021 Andy Evans wrote:
>
> > Anti-vaxxers are irrational, ignorant, anti-science, and very stupid.
> > Perhaps when I'm in a more gentle mood I could call these destructive
> > morons pitiable victims of bad education or gullible "social" media
> > addicts.
> ......................................
> Bloody Hell!
>
> I'd never take Covid injections (peddled me mid-Feb) with their >already known< heart/blood-clot issues after having/recovering from a truly massive Stroke.
>
> Lifelong never been on Any 'medication' (nor taken the slightest 'precaution' -face-rags, et al, these near 2 years) so obviously have a different approach to those pre-disposed to accept the relentless indoctrination.
>
> Presumably they believe "Pfizer macht frei": but the various injections will ultimately (there being no end-point for 'boosters') damage the immune system - making them more at risk - and more Big Pharma Dependant.
>
> Best of luck!!

Wow. You have had 'a massive stroke' and you never take any medication.

Best of luck, indeed, with that.

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 8:18:32 AM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 12:34:26 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
> > Just throwing this out there for all your opinions. Anti-vax is a worldwide protest movement right now. It goes into some fundamental questions about the individual versus the common good. Where do you stand on this?
> After I had my second vaccination, the nurse said, "Now you are free!" Anti-vaxxers deny me that freedom, in the name of their freedom. As long as they only restrict my movements, it is not really a problem.
> It does become a problem when their freedom is life-threatening to someone else. That is what is happening now.
> I cannot (or don't want to) understand why Dutch politicians cannot agree on saving lives under these circumstances.
>
> Henk

This pandemic could be taken as a wake up call to really evaluate one’s health. At least in America, the average diet is highly deficient in vitamins and enzymes. If a healthy body has to deal with a virus like Covid, it will create its own antibodies which will be markedly superior to anything gotten through a vaccination. There is too much obesity along with compromised immune systems in the general population. Dr. Norman Walker who was an early advocate of a diet high in Raw Vegetables and fruits grown in organically fertilized soil and who lived to be 100 years old, Disease free, opposed vaccinations On the grounds that nature filters everything (Through the liver kidneys etc.) many times over before it enters into the bloodstream. By bypassing these filters with a needle one may be taking a risk.

People may not realize that at least in the past, vaccine serum‘s, like any other liquid had to be preserved, particularly when The serum bottles were of a multi dose size. Does anyone ever inquire whether the dosage contains A preservative that very well might be toxic?

Personally, I’ve received both vaccines plus the booster, after taking everything into consideration, so I am not a blanket anti-VAXer. I would also point out to anti-VAXers that in the country‘s history many vaccines were requirements for school attendance in the past. Smallpox and polio come to mind as well as others.

Just pointing out that both sides have some valid concerns. I also would say that freedom implies freedom of all people and not just once own selfish concerns so my own view liars more in favor of the vaccines, While understanding the concerns of others.

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:19:38 AM UTC-5, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 8:18:32 AM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 12:34:26 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
> > > Just throwing this out there for all your opinions. Anti-vax is a worldwide protest movement right now. It goes into some fundamental questions about the individual versus the common good. Where do you stand on this?
> > After I had my second vaccination, the nurse said, "Now you are free!" Anti-vaxxers deny me that freedom, in the name of their freedom. As long as they only restrict my movements, it is not really a problem.
> > It does become a problem when their freedom is life-threatening to someone else. That is what is happening now.
> > I cannot (or don't want to) understand why Dutch politicians cannot agree on saving lives under these circumstances.
> >
> > Henk
> This pandemic could be taken as a wake up call to really evaluate one’s health. At least in America, the average diet is highly deficient in vitamins and enzymes. If a healthy body has to deal with a virus like Covid, it will create its own antibodies which will be markedly superior to anything gotten through a vaccination. There is too much obesity along with compromised immune systems in the general population. Dr. Norman Walker who was an early advocate of a diet high in Raw Vegetables and fruits grown in organically fertilized soil and who lived to be 100 years old, Disease free, opposed vaccinations On the grounds that nature filters everything (Through the liver kidneys etc.) many times over before it enters into the bloodstream. By bypassing these filters with a needle one may be taking a risk.
>
> People may not realize that at least in the past, vaccine serum‘s, like any other liquid had to be preserved, particularly when The serum bottles were of a multi dose size. Does anyone ever inquire whether the dosage contains A preservative that very well might be toxic?
>
> Personally, I’ve received both vaccines plus the booster, after taking everything into consideration, so I am not a blanket anti-VAXer. I would also point out to anti-VAXers that in the country‘s history many vaccines were requirements for school attendance in the past. Smallpox and polio come to mind as well as others.
>
> Just pointing out that both sides have some valid concerns. I also would say that freedom implies freedom of all people and not just once own selfish concerns so my own view liars more in favor of the vaccines, While understanding the concerns of others.

Apologies for random capitalizations. Laziness abetted by voice recognition.

On 11/21/2021 6:34 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> Just throwing this out there for all your opinions. Anti-vax is a worldwide protest movement right now. It goes into some fundamental questions about the individual versus the common good. Where do you stand on this?
>

It's not so simple as pro and anti-vax. Many people have bought into the idea that this particular vaccine is dangerous because of its new technology and/or because it was "rushed" into production. Personally I consider this conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo, but many of those not vaccinated for Covod ARE vaccinated for the usual other stuff.

There is, as you say, the question of individual liberty as well. Just because the vaccine is safe and effective and in the public interest doesn't mean it should be forced on people. You can lower the number of automobile deaths by lowering interstate highway speed limits to 35 MPH, but no one favors that. The cost is not worth the saved lives (proving that from society's point of view, life is not priceless).

The media rarely distinguishes these ideas sufficiently. Another point of confusion is private vs. government mandated vaccination. The right wing talk show hosts are aghast that private companies are conditioning employment on vaccination, saying it is a violation of employee rights. This is ridiculous, of course. Libertarians would never take that position, not sure why Conservatives seem to. Private firms condition employment on all sorts of things, most notably clean drug tests. I have not seen explanations from the Texas and Florida governors who are trying to ban private mandated vaccination in their states. If this issue doesn't clarify the difference between Libertarians and Conservatives, nothing will.

The Federal government's role in this will be decided in the courts. It seems to me the basic view is that the President has executive power over Federal government employees. Whether he can withhold Federal aid from private companies who don't conform to his executive orders is a legal question outside of my pay grade.

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 11:34:26 AM UTC, Andy Evans wrote:
> Just throwing this out there for all your opinions. Anti-vax is a worldwide protest movement right now. It goes into some fundamental questions about the individual versus the common good. Where do you stand on this?

I think it's being used to breed division. In European countries are talking about introducing lockdowns and vaccine mandates, claiming that their vaccination rate is unsustainably low. The lockdowns will fuel resentment OF those who haven't been vaccinated; the mandates will fuel resentment BY those who haven't been vaccinated.

Here are two questions:

1. Are the lockdown measures and vaccine mandates really necessary? I note in passing that in the UK we have neither and experts are saying that we'll be fine till 2022 -- after that I suppose it depends on the winter flu epidemic.

And if the answer to 1 is no, then the obvious next question is

2. Why do the political classes want to divide society?

Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 15:40:06 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 11:34:26 AM UTC, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Just throwing this out there for all your opinions. Anti-vax is a worldwide protest movement right now. It goes into some fundamental questions about the individual versus the common good. Where do you stand on this?
> I think it's being used to breed division. In European countries are talking about introducing lockdowns and vaccine mandates, claiming that their vaccination rate is unsustainably low. The lockdowns will fuel resentment OF those who haven't been vaccinated; the mandates will fuel resentment BY those who haven't been vaccinated.
>
> Here are two questions:
>
> 1. Are the lockdown measures and vaccine mandates really necessary? I note in passing that in the UK we have neither and experts are saying that we'll be fine till 2022 -- after that I suppose it depends on the winter flu epidemic.
>
> And if the answer to 1 is no, then the obvious next question is
>
> 2. Why do the political classes want to divide society?

Because they represent a divided society?

Henk

On 11/21/2021 8:14 AM, frankwm wrote:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 1:04:45 PM UTC, Chris J. wrote:
>> On 21 Nov 2021 Andy Evans wrote:
>
>> Anti-vaxxers are irrational, ignorant, anti-science, and very stupid.
>> Perhaps when I'm in a more gentle mood I could call these destructive
>> morons pitiable victims of bad education or gullible "social" media
>> addicts.
> ......................................
> Bloody Hell!
>
> I'd never take Covid injections (peddled me mid-Feb) with their >already known< heart/blood-clot issues after having/recovering from a truly massive Stroke.
>
> Lifelong never been on Any 'medication' (nor taken the slightest 'precaution' -face-rags, et al, these near 2 years) so obviously have a different approach to those pre-disposed to accept the relentless indoctrination.
>
> Presumably they believe "Pfizer macht frei": but the various injections will ultimately (there being no end-point for 'boosters') damage the immune system - making them more at risk - and more Big Pharma Dependant.
>
> Best of luck!!
>

AFIAC, anyone who doesn't take medicine as a matter of policy is a nut.* But I wish you well.

*I am not (necessarily) talking about religions that prohibit medicines. Too complicated to discuss here.

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:56:21 PM UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

> AFIAC, anyone who doesn't take medicine as a matter of policy******* is a nut.* But I wish you well.
*******considered opinion based on obtaining knowledge.
Well, Sweetie-Pie, as you already Despise Me - I CAN LIVE WITHOUT YOUR 'GOOD WISHES'...
(Typical Mr Burger interjection..)

Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 16:16:51 UTC+1 schreef frankwm:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:56:21 PM UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> > AFIAC, anyone who doesn't take medicine as a matter of policy******* is a nut.* But I wish you well.
> *******considered opinion based on obtaining knowledge.
> Well, Sweetie-Pie, as you already Despise Me - I CAN LIVE WITHOUT YOUR 'GOOD WISHES'...
> (Typical Mr Burger interjection..)

<g>It is a gamble. Let's hope you can live as long without as with medicine.

Henk

On 11/21/2021 10:16 AM, frankwm wrote:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:56:21 PM UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> AFIAC, anyone who doesn't take medicine as a matter of policy******* is a nut.* But I wish you well.
> *******considered opinion based on obtaining knowledge.
> Well, Sweetie-Pie, as you already Despise Me - I CAN LIVE WITHOUT YOUR 'GOOD WISHES'...
> (Typical Mr Burger interjection..)
>

I don't despise you. I just think you're a not. I have over 13,000 CDs. I'm a nut too, just a different kind.

And I don't know who Mr. Burger is.

On 11/21/2021 10:53 AM, HT wrote:
> Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 16:16:51 UTC+1 schreef frankwm:
>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:56:21 PM UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>>> AFIAC, anyone who doesn't take medicine as a matter of policy******* is a nut.* But I wish you well.
>> *******considered opinion based on obtaining knowledge.
>> Well, Sweetie-Pie, as you already Despise Me - I CAN LIVE WITHOUT YOUR 'GOOD WISHES'...
>> (Typical Mr Burger interjection..)
>
> <g>It is a gamble. Let's hope you can live as long without as with medicine.
>
> Henk
>

There are people who smoke cigarettes, don't wear seat belts and drive race cars. Possibly some people are addicted to risk. Certainly they view the risk-reward trade-off differently than the rest of us. I can understand being anti-medicine for religious reasons (people can believe in anything), but not for medical reasons. Regarding vaccination, the risk of vaccination is near zero, the result of vaccination is a near-zero chance of serious illness or death from Covid. There is no bigger no-brainer than choosing vaccination. And yet.....

Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 17:20:24 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
> On 11/21/2021 10:53 AM, HT wrote:
> > Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 16:16:51 UTC+1 schreef frankwm:
> >> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:56:21 PM UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>
> >>> AFIAC, anyone who doesn't take medicine as a matter of policy******* is a nut.* But I wish you well.
> >> *******considered opinion based on obtaining knowledge.
> >> Well, Sweetie-Pie, as you already Despise Me - I CAN LIVE WITHOUT YOUR 'GOOD WISHES'...
> >> (Typical Mr Burger interjection..)
> >
> > <g>It is a gamble. Let's hope you can live as long without as with medicine.
> >
> > Henk
> >
> There are people who smoke cigarettes, don't wear seat belts and drive race cars. Possibly some people are addicted to risk. Certainly they view the risk-reward trade-off differently than the rest of us. I can understand being anti-medicine for religious reasons (people can believe in anything), but not for medical reasons. Regarding vaccination, the risk of vaccination is near zero, the result of vaccination is a near-zero chance of serious illness or death from Covid. There is no bigger no-brainer than choosing vaccination. And yet.....

Perhaps I didn't understand Frank's post correctly. I believed his 'no medicine' lifestyle to be a question of identity.

Identities used to be quite simple: you were your job, religion and/or political party. These days, there are far more and far more different kinds of identity.

It's as with taste: it's difficult to understand the how and why of an identity if it is not yours.

Henk

In the UK (subsequent to a Wuhan family eating their Bat Surprise) it is assessed that 93% have been infected.

As mentioned by Mr.Gavin: natural immunity is considered superior: but the problem initially was those who were (and still are) immuno-compromised -particularly due to age.

But having 'your jabs' means you still get infected/transmit this virus (+ the myriad mutations): so it's the 'logic' behind attempting to get everyone vaccinated.

But why would people with decent immune systems allow a lifetime of Covid injections/pills to be forced on them.
It isn't about being 'anti-vax': people can't be expected to be vaccinated just because someone may be 'at risk'....that person should be innoculated.

However; in the UK some 7 million people are on Statins (and similar for anti-depressants) with 20 million last year taking Influenza shots - so I'm obviously in the non-fucked-up uncaring category.

Re: 'identity': my approach has never changed - as a 10yo refused 'eyedrops' - because was given no good reason - 12yo refused the 40yo BCG (TB) jab as declined to be Tattooed on my shoulder. 7 months back 'the doc' phoned (never seen in <7 years since the Stroke) who was peddling a 'Pneumonia' jab: I said "that's a new one" - she was obviously rattled by the response.

If you wish to live your live/s as an endless source of income for the medical profession - that's your business - to me it's Slavery.

(Mr Burger wrote that biblical-style 'I despise you': I don't forget!)..he also apparently caught covid anyway - so hardly needed the additional protection at that point..

On 11/21/2021 11:53 AM, HT wrote:
> Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 17:20:24 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
>> On 11/21/2021 10:53 AM, HT wrote:
>>> Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 16:16:51 UTC+1 schreef frankwm:
>>>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:56:21 PM UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> AFIAC, anyone who doesn't take medicine as a matter of policy******* is a nut.* But I wish you well.
>>>> *******considered opinion based on obtaining knowledge.
>>>> Well, Sweetie-Pie, as you already Despise Me - I CAN LIVE WITHOUT YOUR 'GOOD WISHES'...
>>>> (Typical Mr Burger interjection..)
>>>
>>> <g>It is a gamble. Let's hope you can live as long without as with medicine.
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>> There are people who smoke cigarettes, don't wear seat belts and drive race cars. Possibly some people are addicted to risk. Certainly they view the risk-reward trade-off differently than the rest of us. I can understand being anti-medicine for religious reasons (people can believe in anything), but not for medical reasons. Regarding vaccination, the risk of vaccination is near zero, the result of vaccination is a near-zero chance of serious illness or death from Covid. There is no bigger no-brainer than choosing vaccination. And yet.....
>
> Perhaps I didn't understand Frank's post correctly. I believed his 'no medicine' lifestyle to be a question of identity.
>

I drew no conclusion about why he is anti-medicine. I don't understand your point about "identity." If you consider your "self" to be equal to your job (or whatever), what kind of self do you have if you are dead from disease?

> Identities used to be quite simple: you were your job, religion and/or political party. These days, there are far more and far more different kinds of identity.
>
> It's as with taste: it's difficult to understand the how and why of an identity if it is not yours.
>
> Henk
>

On 11/21/2021 12:22 PM, HJ wrote:
> In the UK (subsequent to a Wuhan family eating their Bat Surprise) it is assessed that 93% have been infected.
>
> As mentioned by Mr.Gavin: natural immunity is considered superior:

The CDC incorrectly thinks immunization provides superior immunity.

but the problem initially was those who were (and still are) immuno-compromised -particularly due to age.
>
> But having 'your jabs' means you still get infected/transmit this virus (+ the myriad mutations): so it's the 'logic' behind attempting to get everyone vaccinated.
>

The only difference among the variants is that Delta is more communicable. AFAIK, there is no evidence it makes you sicker.

> But why would people with decent immune systems allow a lifetime of Covid injections/pills to be forced on them.

Forced? Why indeed. But rational people might choose such a course. The available evidence is that you have a near zero chance of getting sick from being vaccinated. The conspiracy theorists circulate the number of deaths from vaccination at around 17,000. Not sure if that is supposed to be in the U.S. or world wide, but it is a completely fabricated number. I recall a scientist saying not long ago that there is not one single documented death in the whole world from a Covid vaccination. The 17,000 figure is actually the number of people who died from Covid after being vaccinated. Given the number of vaccinations given world wide, I imagine 17,000 deaths would be inconsequential anyway.

I am recovered from Covid (March-Arpril 2020). I got my second shot around 8 months ago. I have no what my Covid immunity was before I got the shots. Then I got a third shot because I needed to travel to Israel and their rules said that my recovery and second shot were too old. As I recall this was for the purpose of exiting quarantine early, not really for admission to the country. But it wouldn't make much sense to go to Israel and be quarantined in my daughters home for a couple of weeks.

> It isn't about being 'anti-vax': people can't be expected to be vaccinated just because someone may be 'at risk'....that person should be innoculated.
>
> However; in the UK some 7 million people are on Statins (and similar for anti-depressants) with 20 million last year taking Influenza shots - so I'm obviously in the non-fucked-up uncaring category.
>

I'm on statins, blood pressure medicine, metformin, blood thinner. That has nothing to do with whether I should be vaccinated. My in-control Diabetes apparently elevated my Covid risk slightly.

> Re: 'identity': my approach has never changed - as a 10yo refused 'eyedrops' - because was given no good reason - 12yo refused the 40yo BCG (TB) jab as declined to be Tattooed on my shoulder. 7 months back 'the doc' phoned (never seen in <7 years since the Stroke) who was peddling a 'Pneumonia' jab: I said "that's a new one" - she was obviously rattled by the response.
>
> If you wish to live your live/s as an endless source of income for the medical profession - that's your business - to me it's Slavery.
>
>
> (Mr Burger wrote that biblical-style 'I despise you': I don't forget!)..he also apparently caught covid anyway - so hardly needed the additional protection at that point..
>

I did not say I despise you in this conversation. Did I say that in the past in some other context? What did you say to so provoke me? I have a strong tendency to forget who I have had nasty disputes with. Everyone gets a fresh start with me.

And the name is still "Berger." If you refuse to spell me name correctly even after being advised twice, I will have just cause to despise you just for that.

On 2021-11-21 11:34, Andy Evans wrote:
> Just throwing this out there for all your opinions. Anti-vax is a worldwide protest movement right now. It goes into some fundamental questions about the individual versus the common good. Where do you stand on this?
>

It's just for wankers.

Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 18:27:46 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
> On 11/21/2021 11:53 AM, HT wrote:
> > Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 17:20:24 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
> >> On 11/21/2021 10:53 AM, HT wrote:
> >>> Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 16:16:51 UTC+1 schreef frankwm:
> >>>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:56:21 PM UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> AFIAC, anyone who doesn't take medicine as a matter of policy******* is a nut.* But I wish you well.
> >>>> *******considered opinion based on obtaining knowledge.
> >>>> Well, Sweetie-Pie, as you already Despise Me - I CAN LIVE WITHOUT YOUR 'GOOD WISHES'...
> >>>> (Typical Mr Burger interjection..)
> >>>
> >>> <g>It is a gamble. Let's hope you can live as long without as with medicine.
> >>>
> >>> Henk
> >>>
> >> There are people who smoke cigarettes, don't wear seat belts and drive race cars. Possibly some people are addicted to risk. Certainly they view the risk-reward trade-off differently than the rest of us. I can understand being anti-medicine for religious reasons (people can believe in anything), but not for medical reasons. Regarding vaccination, the risk of vaccination is near zero, the result of vaccination is a near-zero chance of serious illness or death from Covid. There is no bigger no-brainer than choosing vaccination. And yet.....
> >
> > Perhaps I didn't understand Frank's post correctly. I believed his 'no medicine' lifestyle to be a question of identity.
> >
> I drew no conclusion about why he is anti-medicine. I don't understand your point about "identity." If you consider your "self" to be equal to your job (or whatever), what kind of self do you have if you are dead from disease?
> > Identities used to be quite simple: you were your job, religion and/or political party. These days, there are far more and far more different kinds of identity.
> >
> > It's as with taste: it's difficult to understand the how and why of an identity if it is not yours.
> >
> > Henk

<g> I will give it another try. To claim that you are not a slave to the medical establishment and to adapt your lifestyle to that is to identify your "self" with that lifestyle. If you die prematurely as a result, you cannot claim that it is because you have been true to your self (you have not got out of your self what you could have got out), but you have been true to what you identify with: your identity.

Henk

On 11/21/2021 1:07 PM, HT wrote:
> Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 18:27:46 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
>> On 11/21/2021 11:53 AM, HT wrote:
>>> Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 17:20:24 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
>>>> On 11/21/2021 10:53 AM, HT wrote:
>>>>> Op zondag 21 november 2021 om 16:16:51 UTC+1 schreef frankwm:
>>>>>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 2:56:21 PM UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AFIAC, anyone who doesn't take medicine as a matter of policy******* is a nut.* But I wish you well.
>>>>>> *******considered opinion based on obtaining knowledge.
>>>>>> Well, Sweetie-Pie, as you already Despise Me - I CAN LIVE WITHOUT YOUR 'GOOD WISHES'...
>>>>>> (Typical Mr Burger interjection..)
>>>>>
>>>>> <g>It is a gamble. Let's hope you can live as long without as with medicine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Henk
>>>>>
>>>> There are people who smoke cigarettes, don't wear seat belts and drive race cars. Possibly some people are addicted to risk. Certainly they view the risk-reward trade-off differently than the rest of us. I can understand being anti-medicine for religious reasons (people can believe in anything), but not for medical reasons. Regarding vaccination, the risk of vaccination is near zero, the result of vaccination is a near-zero chance of serious illness or death from Covid. There is no bigger no-brainer than choosing vaccination. And yet.....
>>>
>>> Perhaps I didn't understand Frank's post correctly. I believed his 'no medicine' lifestyle to be a question of identity.
>>>
>> I drew no conclusion about why he is anti-medicine. I don't understand your point about "identity." If you consider your "self" to be equal to your job (or whatever), what kind of self do you have if you are dead from disease?
>>> Identities used to be quite simple: you were your job, religion and/or political party. These days, there are far more and far more different kinds of identity.
>>>
>>> It's as with taste: it's difficult to understand the how and why of an identity if it is not yours.
>>>
>>> Henk
>
> <g> I will give it another try. To claim that you are not a slave to the medical establishment and to adapt your lifestyle to that is to identify your "self" with that lifestyle. If you die prematurely as a result, you cannot claim that it is because you have been true to your self (you have not got out of your self what you could have got out), but you have been true to what you identify with: your identity.
>
> Henk
\

I reiterate that I consider such people nuts. The very premise choosing to use medicine enslaves yourself to the medical industry is preposterous and requires no further thought.

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 6:22:50 PM UTC+1, HJ wrote:
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> If you wish to live your live/s as an endless source of income for the medical profession - that's your business - to me it's Slavery.
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It's this black-white, me vs the world thinking that's IMHO the real virus.
The notion that receiving medical help equals slavery is infantile thinking, you know, the way kids "run away from home" because they need to prove something, and come back thirty mins later.
I don't see why people in the medical profession should not make a good living. Most of them work terrible hours doing disgusting stuff, and if they happen to be front line workers, like first aid and ambulance staff, they get treated horribly by some patients (particuarly the drunk ones)