On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:14:55 PM UTC-6, Paul A wrote:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 1:12:32 PM UTC-8, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Seat belts. Did liberty evaporate when states made seat belts law? No. Where are the protests? Where are the people reminding me that I became a slave under a socialist state because we have to wear seatbelts? There are none, because you get used to it, and it doesn't matter after that. And the ridiculous thing is that the inconvenience of a shot is arguably far less than that of wearing seatbelts, but as a benefit, you can save even more than one life.
> And yet, there are those who still refuse to wear seat belts for various reasons, mostly, I suppose, because either they don't like being told what to do or because they are too lazy to buckle up... however...

I would expect that those individuals are aware of the choice they are making and the potential for punishment if caught. We all have such freedom. The question is whether the government has the right to impose restrictions or codify mandatory behavior when there is a demonstrable public good. There were people who whined about seatbelt laws when they were under consideration, and now you don't hear a peep from them.

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:59:23 PM UTC-6, Steven Bornfeld wrote:

> When people speak like that, they're usually talking about doxyrubicin
> (the Red Devil). Yeah, bad stuff. But you surely know that the
> landscape of chemo (they don't even like to call it "chemo" anymore) has
> changed. Certainly glad it worked for you.

One of the four in "CHOP": Cyclophosphamide, doxorubicin hydrochloride (hydroxydaunorubicin), vincristine sulfate (Oncovin), and prednisone. Highly effective.

My point here wasn't that the med is "bad stuff" but that in some situations, you put up with risks and real side effects because the alternative is clearly worse. And I'm really sorry that some people can't see that taking a shot with no measurable side effects is far better than the significant risk of long-term health damage should one become infected (I know people who "recovered" months ago and still are struggling with daily activities) and the increased risk of giving others a life threatening or life-altering illness.

In article <37b7eb84-19e7-4d0c-8156-cd599b85a40en@googlegroups.com>,
mswd...@gmail.com <mswdesign@gmail.com> wrote:
>My point here wasn't that the med is "bad stuff" but that in some
>situations, you put up with risks and real side effects because
>the alternative is clearly worse.

That is the essence of pharmacology, going back to the Socratic
pharmakon, both poison & cure. Indeed, e.g. theorist Bernard
Stiegler (long before covid) has made pharmacology into an operative
metaphor for many social developments, particularly around technology.
(I draw upon Stiegler often.)

On 11/22/2021 12:33 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:14:55 PM UTC-6, Paul A wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 1:12:32 PM UTC-8, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Seat belts. Did liberty evaporate when states made seat belts law? No. Where are the protests? Where are the people reminding me that I became a slave under a socialist state because we have to wear seatbelts? There are none, because you get used to it, and it doesn't matter after that. And the ridiculous thing is that the inconvenience of a shot is arguably far less than that of wearing seatbelts, but as a benefit, you can save even more than one life.
>> And yet, there are those who still refuse to wear seat belts for various reasons, mostly, I suppose, because either they don't like being told what to do or because they are too lazy to buckle up... however...
>
> I would expect that those individuals are aware of the choice they are making and the potential for punishment if caught. We all have such freedom. The question is whether the government has the right to impose restrictions or codify mandatory behavior when there is a demonstrable public good. There were people who whined about seatbelt laws when they were under consideration, and now you don't hear a peep from them.
>

Nobody likes beating his head against the wall.

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 11:26:54 AM UTC-5, Ricardo Jimenez wrote:
> Shameful!! Are there 200 replies yet to this
> OT post? I haven't read a single one of them.
> I am sure none of you have read my post on
> Dmitri Tcherniakov so I have gotten even.
> HaHa.

I read your post on Dmitri Tcherniakov.
What am I supposed to do now? Applaud?

dk

On 11/22/2021 11:15 AM, Graham wrote:
> On 2021-11-22 9:00 a.m., Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>> On 11/22/2021 9:42 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 11/21/2021 10:53 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>>> On 11/21/2021 5:41 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 11/21/2021 4:39 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 3:35:50 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/21/2021 2:48 PM, Herman wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 6:22:50 PM UTC+1, HJ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As mentioned by Mr.Gavin: natural immunity is considered
>>>>>>>>> superior: but the problem initially was those who were (and
>>>>>>>>> still are) immuno-compromised -particularly due to age.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> we don't even know what "natural immunity" is (it may also just
>>>>>>>> mean the naturally immune guy just didn't run into the virus
>>>>>>>> yet), but there are a lot of findings that the the vaccines
>>>>>>>> offer better protection.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm no expert, but there is an Israeli study that reportedly
>>>>>>> concludes immunity from having recovered from Covid is stronger
>>>>>>> or longer-lasting than that from vaccination. The CDC found (or
>>>>>>> reported on someone else's study) the opposite. I saw a review
>>>>>>> (by a scientist - I think an epidemiologist) that concluded the
>>>>>>> CDC study was defective methodologically. I'll try to find it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think the answer matters, because nobody has to choose
>>>>>> between to two. And those that suggest that we should are idiots.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. You'd have to be nuts to get Covid on purpose in order to make
>>>>> vaccination unnecessary.   Wait.....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, there used to be "chickenpox parties", which is silly, but at
>>>> least it's a mild disease for most children.  Then they started with
>>>> measles parties--can covid parties be far behind?
>>>
>>> I remember this, when my own children were little.  Some of my wife's
>>> friends were doing this - in order to get Chicken Pox "out of the
>>> way" so their own lives would be less complicated and they would be
>>> less inconvenienced.  I refused to let my children be exposed.  Prior
>>> to the vaccine (introduced in 1995) there were around 10,000
>>> hospitalizations and 100 deaths from chicken pox every year.  I don't
>>> know whether those numbers are low enough to justify risking your
>>> children from a convenience/economic point of view.  I have no idea
>>> if the people who exposed their children on purpose had an accurate
>>> view of the risks.
>>
>>
>> I would guess not.  My daughter was born the year after chickenpox
>> vaccine was introduced.  Our pediatrician did not recommend it, for
>> reasons that will be familiar--"it's new, we don't have enough
>> experience with it to rule out problems, and chickenpox is a mild
>> disease".  He was certainly not anti-vaccine, and when the HPV vaccine
>> came out about 10 years later, he had no reservations about
>> recommending that.
>
> There were also rubella parties for girls attending elementary schools
> in the 70s and early 80s. We occasionally received notes from the school
> warning of a rubella case so that pregnant women could take precautions.

I guess there may have been a blood test--even earlier than that. I was
told I had rubella, though no blood test was done. Yeah, I remember it
being relatively mild for me. Looks like the first rubella vaccine was
licensed in 1969, so except for the antivaccine crowd there shouldn't
have been parties in the '80s.

On 11/22/2021 12:43 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:59:23 PM UTC-6, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
>> When people speak like that, they're usually talking about doxyrubicin
>> (the Red Devil). Yeah, bad stuff. But you surely know that the
>> landscape of chemo (they don't even like to call it "chemo" anymore) has
>> changed. Certainly glad it worked for you.
>
> One of the four in "CHOP": Cyclophosphamide, doxorubicin hydrochloride (hydroxydaunorubicin), vincristine sulfate (Oncovin), and prednisone. Highly effective.
>
> My point here wasn't that the med is "bad stuff" but that in some situations, you put up with risks and real side effects because the alternative is clearly worse. And I'm really sorry that some people can't see that taking a shot with no measurable side effects is far better than the significant risk of long-term health damage should one become infected (I know people who "recovered" months ago and still are struggling with daily activities) and the increased risk of giving others a life threatening or life-altering illness.
>

Absolutely. I have a dear old friend (who's a psychiatrist) who caught
covid early on, and 18 months later still has the brain fog, sudden
bouts of severe fatigue and small-fiber neuropathy; and has been
hospitalized for what seemed to be a cardiac event but was probably
covid-related.

In article <sngu79$r64$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Steven Bornfeld <dentaltwin@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Looks like the first rubella vaccine was licensed in 1969, so
>except for the antivaccine crowd there shouldn't have been parties
>in the '80s.

Yes, those were surely chicken pox parties, which I remember well
from that period.... (My youngest child was immunized against
chicken pox, but not the older two. That was the timing of it.)

Anyway, 20-somethings were having covid parties already in early
to mid 2020. There was a notion going around that if you could
show you had the antibodies, you should be allowed back to your
social activities (as presumably now immune). Regulatory agencies
didn't accept this idea, though, what with the asymptomatic
transimissions etc....

On 11/22/2021 3:26 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 11/22/2021 12:43 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:59:23 PM UTC-6, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>
>>> When people speak like that, they're usually talking about doxyrubicin
>>> (the Red Devil). Yeah, bad stuff. But you surely know that the
>>> landscape of chemo (they don't even like to call it "chemo" anymore) has
>>> changed. Certainly glad it worked for you.
>>
>> One of the four in "CHOP": Cyclophosphamide, doxorubicin hydrochloride (hydroxydaunorubicin), vincristine sulfate (Oncovin), and prednisone. Highly effective.
>>
>> My point here wasn't that the med is "bad stuff" but that in some situations, you put up with risks and real side effects because the alternative is clearly worse. And I'm really sorry that some people can't see that taking a shot with no measurable side effects is far better than the significant risk of long-term health damage should one become infected (I know people who "recovered" months ago and still are struggling with daily activities) and the increased risk of giving others a life threatening or life-altering illness.
>>
>
> Absolutely.  I have a dear old friend (who's a psychiatrist) who caught covid early on, and 18 months later still has the brain fog, sudden bouts of severe fatigue and small-fiber neuropathy; and has been hospitalized for what seemed to be a cardiac event but was probably covid-related.

I guess my wife and I are lucky. We have no noticeable lingering symptoms after having had Covid in March/April 2020.

Would I know it if I had brain fog? Is that really a thing?

On 11/22/2021 5:20 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/22/2021 3:26 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>> On 11/22/2021 12:43 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:59:23 PM UTC-6, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>>
>>>> When people speak like that, they're usually talking about doxyrubicin
>>>> (the Red Devil). Yeah, bad stuff. But you surely know that the
>>>> landscape of chemo (they don't even like to call it "chemo" anymore)
>>>> has
>>>> changed. Certainly glad it worked for you.
>>>
>>> One of the four in "CHOP": Cyclophosphamide, doxorubicin
>>> hydrochloride (hydroxydaunorubicin), vincristine sulfate (Oncovin),
>>> and prednisone. Highly effective.
>>>
>>> My point here wasn't that the med is "bad stuff" but that in some
>>> situations, you put up with risks and real side effects because the
>>> alternative is clearly worse. And I'm really sorry that some people
>>> can't see that taking a shot with no measurable side effects is far
>>> better than the significant risk of long-term health damage should
>>> one become infected (I know people who "recovered" months ago and
>>> still are struggling with daily activities) and the increased risk of
>>> giving others a life threatening or life-altering illness.
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely.  I have a dear old friend (who's a psychiatrist) who
>> caught covid early on, and 18 months later still has the brain fog,
>> sudden bouts of severe fatigue and small-fiber neuropathy; and has
>> been hospitalized for what seemed to be a cardiac event but was
>> probably covid-related.
>
> I guess my wife and I are lucky.  We have no noticeable lingering
> symptoms after having had Covid in March/April 2020.
>
> Would I know it if I had brain fog?  Is that really a thing?

It seems to be my normal state of being, so I don't know.

On 11/22/2021 5:43 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 11/22/2021 5:20 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/22/2021 3:26 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>> On 11/22/2021 12:43 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:59:23 PM UTC-6, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When people speak like that, they're usually talking about doxyrubicin
>>>>> (the Red Devil). Yeah, bad stuff. But you surely know that the
>>>>> landscape of chemo (they don't even like to call it "chemo" anymore) has
>>>>> changed. Certainly glad it worked for you.
>>>>
>>>> One of the four in "CHOP": Cyclophosphamide, doxorubicin hydrochloride (hydroxydaunorubicin), vincristine sulfate (Oncovin), and prednisone. Highly effective.
>>>>
>>>> My point here wasn't that the med is "bad stuff" but that in some situations, you put up with risks and real side effects because the alternative is clearly worse. And I'm really sorry that some people can't see that taking a shot with no measurable side effects is far better than the significant risk of long-term health damage should one become infected (I know people who "recovered" months ago and still are struggling with daily activities) and the increased risk of giving others a life threatening or life-altering illness.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Absolutely.  I have a dear old friend (who's a psychiatrist) who caught covid early on, and 18 months later still has the brain fog, sudden bouts of severe fatigue and small-fiber neuropathy; and has been hospitalized for what seemed to be a cardiac event but was probably covid-related.
>>
>> I guess my wife and I are lucky.  We have no noticeable lingering symptoms after having had Covid in March/April 2020.
>>
>> Would I know it if I had brain fog?  Is that really a thing?
>
>
> It seems to be my normal state of being, so I don't know.

In "Joe Vs. the Volcano" Tom Hanks had a Brain Cloud. Is that the same thing?

On 2021-11-22 1:23 p.m., Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 11/22/2021 11:15 AM, Graham wrote:
>> On 2021-11-22 9:00 a.m., Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>> On 11/22/2021 9:42 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 11/21/2021 10:53 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>>>> On 11/21/2021 5:41 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/21/2021 4:39 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 3:35:50 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/21/2021 2:48 PM, Herman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 6:22:50 PM UTC+1, HJ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As mentioned by Mr.Gavin: natural immunity is considered
>>>>>>>>>> superior: but the problem initially was those who were (and
>>>>>>>>>> still are) immuno-compromised -particularly due to age.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> we don't even know what "natural immunity" is (it may also just
>>>>>>>>> mean the naturally immune guy just didn't run into the virus
>>>>>>>>> yet), but there are a lot of findings that the the vaccines
>>>>>>>>> offer better protection.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm no expert, but there is an Israeli study that reportedly
>>>>>>>> concludes immunity from having recovered from Covid is stronger
>>>>>>>> or longer-lasting than that from vaccination. The CDC found (or
>>>>>>>> reported on someone else's study) the opposite. I saw a review
>>>>>>>> (by a scientist - I think an epidemiologist) that concluded the
>>>>>>>> CDC study was defective methodologically. I'll try to find it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think the answer matters, because nobody has to choose
>>>>>>> between to two. And those that suggest that we should are idiots.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. You'd have to be nuts to get Covid on purpose in order to
>>>>>> make vaccination unnecessary.   Wait.....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, there used to be "chickenpox parties", which is silly, but at
>>>>> least it's a mild disease for most children.  Then they started
>>>>> with measles parties--can covid parties be far behind?
>>>>
>>>> I remember this, when my own children were little.  Some of my
>>>> wife's friends were doing this - in order to get Chicken Pox "out of
>>>> the way" so their own lives would be less complicated and they would
>>>> be less inconvenienced.  I refused to let my children be exposed.
>>>> Prior to the vaccine (introduced in 1995) there were around 10,000
>>>> hospitalizations and 100 deaths from chicken pox every year.  I
>>>> don't know whether those numbers are low enough to justify risking
>>>> your children from a convenience/economic point of view.  I have no
>>>> idea if the people who exposed their children on purpose had an
>>>> accurate view of the risks.
>>>
>>>
>>> I would guess not.  My daughter was born the year after chickenpox
>>> vaccine was introduced.  Our pediatrician did not recommend it, for
>>> reasons that will be familiar--"it's new, we don't have enough
>>> experience with it to rule out problems, and chickenpox is a mild
>>> disease".  He was certainly not anti-vaccine, and when the HPV
>>> vaccine came out about 10 years later, he had no reservations about
>>> recommending that.
>>
>> There were also rubella parties for girls attending elementary schools
>> in the 70s and early 80s. We occasionally received notes from the
>> school warning of a rubella case so that pregnant women could take
>> precautions.
>
> I guess there may have been a blood test--even earlier than that.  I was
> told I had rubella, though no blood test was done.  Yeah, I remember it
> being relatively mild for me. Looks like the first rubella vaccine was
> licensed in 1969, so except for the antivaccine crowd there shouldn't
> have been parties in the '80s.

Well there were. My children were in elementary school in the late 70s
and early 80s and we were friends with several all-girl families.

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:20:56 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/22/2021 3:26 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
> I guess my wife and I are lucky. We have no
> noticeable lingering symptoms after having
> had Covid in March/April 2020.

Before or after receiving your vax?

dk

On 11/22/2021 7:08 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:20:56 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/22/2021 3:26 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>
>> I guess my wife and I are lucky. We have no
>> noticeable lingering symptoms after having
>> had Covid in March/April 2020.
>
> Before or after receiving your vax?
>
> dk
>

Long before. IIRC, the vaccines were first available in Dec. 2020.

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 7:15:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/22/2021 7:08 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:20:56 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 11/22/2021 3:26 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> >>
> >> I guess my wife and I are lucky. We have no
> >> noticeable lingering symptoms after having
> >> had Covid in March/April 2020.
> >
> > Before or after receiving your vax?
>
> Long before. IIRC, the vaccines
> were first available in Dec. 2020.

They were available earlier for
clinical trials. You didn't volunteer?

dk

On 11/22/2021 7:35 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 7:15:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/22/2021 7:08 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:20:56 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 11/22/2021 3:26 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I guess my wife and I are lucky. We have no
>>>> noticeable lingering symptoms after having
>>>> had Covid in March/April 2020.
>>>
>>> Before or after receiving your vax?
>>
>> Long before. IIRC, the vaccines
>> were first available in Dec. 2020.
>
> They were available earlier for
> clinical trials. You didn't volunteer?
>
>
> dk
>

I didn't isolate, didn't mask unless forced, didn't wash my hands. Seems like I was trying to get sick. I succeeded.

Didn't know about no stinkin' trials.

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 7:46:01 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/22/2021 7:35 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 7:15:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 11/22/2021 7:08 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:20:56 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>> I guess my wife and I are lucky. We have no
> >>>> noticeable lingering symptoms after having
> >>>> had Covid in March/April 2020.
> >>> Before or after receiving your vax?
> >> Long before. IIRC, the vaccines
> >> were first available in Dec. 2020.
> > They were available earlier for
> > clinical trials. You didn't volunteer?
> I didn't isolate, didn't mask unless forced,
> didn't wash my hands. Seems like I was
> trying to get sick. I succeeded.
> Didn't know about no stinkin' trials.

Interesting approach. Have you heard
the saying "never trouble trouble until
trouble troubles you"?

I took the opposite approach: wore 3
layers of masks and surgical gloves.
Disinfected my mouth, throat and
nose every 2 hours. Took every
vitamin and supplement known
to humankind. Disinfected fruit
and veggies with H2O2. And I
volunteered for Moderna trials.

Andy Grove used to say "Only the
Paranoid Survive".

https://www.amazon.com/Only-Paranoid-Survive-Exploit-Challenge/dp/0385483821

dk

On 11/22/2021 7:58 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 7:46:01 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 11/22/2021 7:35 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 7:15:54 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 11/22/2021 7:08 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 5:20:56 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>> I guess my wife and I are lucky. We have no
>>>>>> noticeable lingering symptoms after having
>>>>>> had Covid in March/April 2020.
>>>>> Before or after receiving your vax?
>>>> Long before. IIRC, the vaccines
>>>> were first available in Dec. 2020.
>>> They were available earlier for
>>> clinical trials. You didn't volunteer?
>> I didn't isolate, didn't mask unless forced,
>> didn't wash my hands. Seems like I was
>> trying to get sick. I succeeded.
>> Didn't know about no stinkin' trials.
>
> Interesting approach. Have you heard
> the saying "never trouble trouble until
> trouble troubles you"?
>
> I took the opposite approach: wore 3
> layers of masks and surgical gloves.
> Disinfected my mouth, throat and
> nose every 2 hours. Took every
> vitamin and supplement known
> to humankind. Disinfected fruit
> and veggies with H2O2. And I
> volunteered for Moderna trials.
>
> Andy Grove used to say "Only the
> Paranoid Survive".
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Only-Paranoid-Survive-Exploit-Challenge/dp/0385483821
>
> dk
>

Well, we took opposite approaches and both survived. If I had the opportunity to go back and switch approaches with you, I would not. Possibly if I had died I would feel different.

On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 8:53:20 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/22/2021 7:58 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, November 22, 2021 at 7:46:01 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>
> >> I didn't isolate, didn't mask unless forced,
> >> didn't wash my hands. Seems like I was
> >> trying to get sick. I succeeded.
> >> Didn't know about no stinkin' trials.
> >
> > Interesting approach. Have you heard
> > the saying "never trouble trouble until
> > trouble troubles you"?
> >
> > I took the opposite approach: wore 3
> > layers of masks and surgical gloves.
> > Disinfected my mouth, throat and
> > nose every 2 hours. Took every
> > vitamin and supplement known
> > to humankind. Disinfected fruit
> > and veggies with H2O2. And I
> > volunteered for Moderna trials.
> >
> > Andy Grove used to say "Only the
> > Paranoid Survive".
> >
> > https://www.amazon.com/Only-Paranoid-Survive-Exploit-Challenge/dp/0385483821
>
> Well, we took opposite approaches and
> both survived. If I had the opportunity to
> go back and switch approaches with you,
> I would not. Possibly if I had died I would
> feel different.

Stubborn.

dk

On 11/22/2021 5:52 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 11/22/2021 5:43 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>> On 11/22/2021 5:20 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 11/22/2021 3:26 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>>> On 11/22/2021 12:43 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 9:59:23 PM UTC-6, Steven Bornfeld
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When people speak like that, they're usually talking about
>>>>>> doxyrubicin
>>>>>> (the Red Devil). Yeah, bad stuff. But you surely know that the
>>>>>> landscape of chemo (they don't even like to call it "chemo"
>>>>>> anymore) has
>>>>>> changed. Certainly glad it worked for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the four in "CHOP": Cyclophosphamide, doxorubicin
>>>>> hydrochloride (hydroxydaunorubicin), vincristine sulfate (Oncovin),
>>>>> and prednisone. Highly effective.
>>>>>
>>>>> My point here wasn't that the med is "bad stuff" but that in some
>>>>> situations, you put up with risks and real side effects because the
>>>>> alternative is clearly worse. And I'm really sorry that some people
>>>>> can't see that taking a shot with no measurable side effects is far
>>>>> better than the significant risk of long-term health damage should
>>>>> one become infected (I know people who "recovered" months ago and
>>>>> still are struggling with daily activities) and the increased risk
>>>>> of giving others a life threatening or life-altering illness.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely.  I have a dear old friend (who's a psychiatrist) who
>>>> caught covid early on, and 18 months later still has the brain fog,
>>>> sudden bouts of severe fatigue and small-fiber neuropathy; and has
>>>> been hospitalized for what seemed to be a cardiac event but was
>>>> probably covid-related.
>>>
>>> I guess my wife and I are lucky.  We have no noticeable lingering
>>> symptoms after having had Covid in March/April 2020.
>>>
>>> Would I know it if I had brain fog?  Is that really a thing?
>>
>>
>> It seems to be my normal state of being, so I don't know.
>
> In "Joe Vs. the Volcano" Tom Hanks had a Brain Cloud.  Is that the same
> thing?

LOL

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 6:34:26 AM UTC-5, Andy Evans wrote:
> Just throwing this out there for all your opinions.
> Anti-vax is a worldwide protest movement right
> now. It goes into some fundamental questions
> about the individual versus the common good.
> Where do you stand on this?

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-59378552

dk

On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 8:18:32 AM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> After I had my second vaccination,
> the nurse said, "Now you are free!".

Freedom requires 4 shots.

dk

Op dinsdag 23 november 2021 om 03:52:02 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 8:18:32 AM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> >
> > After I had my second vaccination,
> > the nurse said, "Now you are free!".
>
> Freedom requires 4 shots.
>
> dk

Let's hope we can get pills from the pharmacy soon.

Henk

On 11/23/2021 4:56 AM, HT wrote:
> Op dinsdag 23 november 2021 om 03:52:02 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
>> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 8:18:32 AM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>>>
>>> After I had my second vaccination,
>>> the nurse said, "Now you are free!".
>>
>> Freedom requires 4 shots.
>>
>> dk
>
> Let's hope we can get pills from the pharmacy soon.
>
> Henk
>

An Israeli firm is testing a pill-vaccine in Mexico now.

Op dinsdag 23 november 2021 om 13:22:38 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
> On 11/23/2021 4:56 AM, HT wrote:
> > Op dinsdag 23 november 2021 om 03:52:02 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
> >> On Sunday, November 21, 2021 at 8:18:32 AM UTC-5, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> >>>
> >>> After I had my second vaccination,
> >>> the nurse said, "Now you are free!".
> >>
> >> Freedom requires 4 shots.
> >>
> >> dk
> >
> > Let's hope we can get pills from the pharmacy soon.
> >
> > Henk
> >
> An Israeli firm is testing a pill-vaccine in Mexico now.

Merck and Pfizer already have pills that seem to work rather well. I don't know if their pills are pill-vaccines.
<g> Like China, Israel is doing very well fighting Covid within its own borders.

Henk