*Mal WALDRON* is an unclassifiable pianist!...He said himself "I change
from day to day, from minute to minute"...
What an economy of means...The virtuoso management of the reiteration
during his improvisation is fascinating...Monk and Mingtus were his
masters...Moreover, he was an immense accompanist, in the most diverse
contexts...

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 3:27:45 PM UTC+1, MELMOTH wrote:
> *Mal WALDRON* is an unclassifiable pianist!...He said himself "I change
> from day to day, from minute to minute"...
> What an economy of means...The virtuoso management of the reiteration
> during his improvisation is fascinating...Monk and Mingtus were his
> masters...Moreover, he was an immense accompanist, in the most diverse
> contexts...

You are aware this is a newsgroup devoted to classical (recorded) music? You keep posting about jazz musicians.
Why don't you check this one out:
https://groups.google.com/g/cnjmusic

Herman a exposé le 01/12/2021 :
> You are aware this is a newsgroup devoted to classical (recorded) music? You
> keep posting about jazz musicians.

At least I'm talking about *MUSIC*...Not covid...

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 6:38:06 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 3:27:45 PM UTC+1, MELMOTH wrote:
> > *Mal WALDRON* is an unclassifiable pianist!...He said himself "I change
> > from day to day, from minute to minute"...
> > What an economy of means...The virtuoso management of the reiteration
> > during his improvisation is fascinating...Monk and Mingtus were his
> > masters...Moreover, he was an immense accompanist, in the most diverse
> > contexts...
> You are aware this is a newsgroup devoted to classical (recorded) music? You keep posting about jazz musicians.

Isn't some blurring of the genre lines inevitable -- especially with contemporary /recent musics that are heir in part, but not in whole, to the western classical tradition?

number_six avait prétendu :
> Isn't some blurring of the genre lines inevitable -- especially with
> contemporary /recent musics that are heir in part, but not in whole, to the
> western classical tradition?

Especially if we consider that JAZZ can be considered as a part of the
CLASSICAL music of the USA...

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 10:25:22 PM UTC+1, MELMOTH wrote:
>
> Especially if we consider that JAZZ can be considered as a part of the
> CLASSICAL music of the USA...

Don't give me that crap

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 10:53:24 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 10:25:22 PM UTC+1, MELMOTH wrote:
> >
> > Especially if we consider that JAZZ can be considered as a part of the
> > CLASSICAL music of the USA...
> Don't give me that crap

Classical music is the classical music of the USA

On Thursday, 2 December 2021 at 08:25:22 UTC+11, MELMOTH wrote:
> number_six avait prétendu :
> > Isn't some blurring of the genre lines inevitable -- especially with
> > contemporary /recent musics that are heir in part, but not in whole, to the
> > western classical tradition?
> Especially if we consider that JAZZ can be considered as a part of the
> CLASSICAL music of the USA...

Jazz is much more like the indigenous music of the USA, in a relatively contemporary sense. Much like dance is in Czechia and adjacent countries (slavonic dances etc.). Consideration of this would seem to me that jazz is easily a subset of what we talk about here, when we decide to talk about music. For me, jazz represents a thinking, living, vibrantly cerebral type of classical music.

Ray Hall, Taree

Herman a émis l'idée suivante :
> Don't give me that crap

???...
An explanation would be welcome...

In article <5dc6edfc-b916-46a2-a650-67b599a8b79an@googlegroups.com>,
number_six <cyberiade@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Isn't some blurring of the genre lines inevitable -- especially
>with contemporary /recent musics that are heir in part, but not
>in whole, to the western classical tradition?

I just reviewed a 4CD set _The Chicago Symphonies_ from Wadada Leo
Smith. It's part of his 80th birthday release celebration. A 7CD
box of string quartets is still supposed to appear. _The Chicago
Symphonies_, however, are jazz:

https://tumrecords.com/box-004-chicago-symphonies

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 6:08:35 PM UTC-5, MELMOTH wrote:
> Herman a émis l'idée suivante :
> > Don't give me that crap
> ???...
> An explanation would be welcome...

You don't know what crap means?
And you listen to jazz ?!?

dk

Dans son message précédent, Dan Koren a écrit :
> You don't know what crap means?
> And you listen to jazz ?!?

https://www.amazon.fr/Classic-Albums-1953-1962-Horace-Silver/dp/B00PUB7V56/ref=sr_1_12?__mk_fr_FR=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=P6K9PMBRTXZG&keywords=horace+silver&qid=1638534434&s=music&sprefix=horace+silver%2Cclassical%2C192&sr=1-12

I'm not averse to spicing up the forum with a little jazz. Not a fan of Waldron, though.

Nina Simone was more talented at bringing a classical feel into jazz. I suppose we could include the MJQ.

On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 5:25:19 PM UTC-5, Andy Evans wrote:
> I'm not averse to spicing up the forum
> with a little jazz. Not a fan of Waldron,
> though.
>
> Nina Simone was more talented at bringing a
> classical feel into jazz. I suppose we could
> include the MJQ.

Brubeck, Evans, Garner, Hiromi, John Lewis,
Oscar Peterson and Art Tatum all are/were
classical pianists.

The main reason jazz is not seen as classical
music is racism.

dk

On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 4:33:56 PM UTC-6, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> The main reason jazz is not seen as classical music is racism.
> dk

I think even if jazz got the respect it deserved everywhere (I live somewhere where it does, but few kids in the US play the music of Charlie Parker in high school), identifying it with classical music would not be helpful. Any superficial undestanding on both would see the forms are just different, with jazz's emphasis on improvisation not really being compatible with the formality of classical music. There are other significant differences, too, about how and where they are played, how audiences are expected to behave, etc. I'm fine with saying each are worthy of attention and the artists are worthy of respect, but I don't think jazz benefits by being more closely identified with classical music. If anything, it is classical music that could stand to be a bit more like jazz.

In article <d47d7182-db22-461f-aa9a-3793afff0275n@googlegroups.com>,
mswd...@gmail.com <mswdesign@gmail.com> wrote:
>... with jazz's emphasis on improvisation not really being compatible
>with the formality of classical music.

I think it's important to note that improvisation was a part of
classical music until relatively recently (the 20th century). It
was never considered incompatible before, but there's some sort of
"division of powers" going on here -- it seems to me, largely
prompted by retail categories.

>If anything, it is classical music that could stand to be a bit
>more like jazz.

No real argument there. I might disagree about formal differences,
but in some sense jazz is a sort of "content" & a big issue with
classical music is that it can become vacuous.

On Monday, 6 December 2021 at 08:09:04 UTC+11, mswd...gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 4:33:56 PM UTC-6, dan....gmail.com wrote:
> > The main reason jazz is not seen as classical music is racism.
> > dk
> I think even if jazz got the respect it deserved everywhere (I live somewhere where it does, but few >kids in the US play the music of Charlie Parker in high school), identifying it with classical music >would not be helpful. Any superficial undestanding on both would see the forms are just different, >with jazz's emphasis on improvisation not really being compatible with the formality of classical >music. There are other significant differences, too, about how and where they are played, how >audiences are expected to behave, etc. I'm fine with saying each are worthy of attention and the >artists are worthy of respect, but I don't think jazz benefits by being more closely identified with >classical music. If anything, it is classical music that could stand to be a bit more like jazz.

For me the main difference between the two genres, lies not so much with the music, but with the historical context. In that sense both are clearly different. Also, for me, it isn't the content, or the form, that really differentiate the genres, but the skill set that both classical and jazz musicians respectively bring to their art. It must also be remembered that jazz isn't just pure improvisation, as there has to be some considerable structure involved, whilst as has been pointed out, very early forms of classical music involved some improvisation.

As for Charlie Parker, bop was always considered a very cerebral type of jazz, of which Parker was a master.

I believe both jazz and classical both deserve consideration as serious music, and need no further labelling. And yes, of course, racism is a definite factor in the reception of jazz especially.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 1:29:22 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <d47d7182-db22-461f...@googlegroups.com>,
> mswd...@gmail.com <mswd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >... with jazz's emphasis on improvisation not really being compatible
> >with the formality of classical music.
> I think it's important to note that improvisation was a part of
> classical music until relatively recently (the 20th century). It
> was never considered incompatible before, but there's some sort of
> "division of powers" going on here -- it seems to me, largely
> prompted by retail categories.
> >If anything, it is classical music that could stand to be a bit
> >more like jazz.
> No real argument there. I might disagree about formal differences,
> but in some sense jazz is a sort of "content" & a big issue with
> classical music is that it can become vacuous.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical/c/503cUqlaH9o

On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 2:56:40 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 1:29:22 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > In article <d47d7182-db22-461f...@googlegroups.com>,
> > mswd...@gmail.com <mswd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >... with jazz's emphasis on improvisation not really being compatible
> > >with the formality of classical music.
> > I think it's important to note that improvisation was a part of
> > classical music until relatively recently (the 20th century). It
> > was never considered incompatible before, but there's some sort of
> > "division of powers" going on here -- it seems to me, largely
> > prompted by retail categories.
> > >If anything, it is classical music that could stand to be a bit
> > >more like jazz.
> > No real argument there. I might disagree about formal differences,
> > but in some sense jazz is a sort of "content" & a big issue with
> > classical music is that it can become vacuous.
> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical/c/503cUqlaH9o

(Recent Y. upload):

Why is Improvisation SO DIFFICULT for Classical Musicians?

On Sunday, December 5, 2021 at 11:29:22 AM UTC-10, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <d47d7182-db22-461f...@googlegroups.com>,
> mswd...@gmail.com <mswd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >... with jazz's emphasis on improvisation not really being compatible
> >with the formality of classical music.
> I think it's important to note that improvisation was a part of
> classical music until relatively recently (the 20th century). It
> was never considered incompatible before, but there's some sort of
> "division of powers" going on here -- it seems to me, largely
> prompted by retail categories.
> >If anything, it is classical music that could stand to be a bit
> >more like jazz.
> No real argument there. I might disagree about formal differences,
> but in some sense jazz is a sort of "content" & a big issue with
> classical music is that it can become vacuous.

- Every tradition grows ever more venerable the more remote its origin, the more confused that origin is. The reverence due to it increases from generation to generation. The tradition finally becomes holy and inspires awe.

Nietzsche

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.classical.recordings/c/b2LHyyh3tz8/m/A-dedQdvAgAJ

On 12/5/21 4:26 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> very early forms of classical music involved some improvisation.

An understatement! Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, organists up to
present day.

Op maandag 6 december 2021 om 16:36:57 UTC+1 schreef MINe109:
> On 12/5/21 4:26 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > very early forms of classical music involved some improvisation.
> An understatement! Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, organists up to
> present day.

Montero is still improvising before a public - at a very high level. The sense of it escapes me.

The same applies to contemporary jazz. It is much ado about nothing - in my very humble opinion.The almost predictable right-hand runs, the ritualized body movements, the obligatory camaraderie, not to mention the sectarian attitude among the audiences ...

Where are the days of Fats Waller?

Henk

On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 9:36:57 AM UTC-6, MINe109 wrote:
> On 12/5/21 4:26 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > very early forms of classical music involved some improvisation.
> An understatement! Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, organists up to
> present day.

I'm reasonabvly aware of the history of improvisation in classical music, but I'm not aware of it having been present in any concert I've been to. So organ-playing is an exception, you say? Fine. That doesn't erase the huge distinction between the role of improvisation in jazz and classical.

On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 10:23:17 AM UTC-6, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> Op maandag 6 december 2021 om 16:36:57 UTC+1 schreef MINe109:
> > On 12/5/21 4:26 PM, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > very early forms of classical music involved some improvisation.
> > An understatement! Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, organists up to
> > present day.
> Montero is still improvising before a public - at a very high level. The sense of it escapes me.
>
> The same applies to contemporary jazz. It is much ado about nothing - in my very humble opinion.The almost predictable right-hand runs, the ritualized body movements, the obligatory camaraderie, not to mention the sectarian attitude among the audiences ...
>
> Where are the days of Fats Waller?
>
> Henk

When in the past 80 years does "contemporary" begin with you? Pointing to someone who died in 1943 as the paragon of improv hardly clarifies things.

In article <b72d3e3a-0b71-428e-8236-f9ce64914721n@googlegroups.com>,
mswd...@gmail.com <mswdesign@gmail.com> wrote:
>That doesn't erase the huge distinction between the role of
>improvisation in jazz and classical.

It's surely no coincidence that improvisation was removed from
classical performances during the same era that jazz became a broad
consumer category of entertainment. In other words, it's a
specialization that was imposed subsequently on the music. However,
it's more than that: You're apparently not interested, but much
of the "classical music" composed in the later 20th century & beyond
involves improvisation (sometimes called "chance operations").

In other words, "classical music" involves improvisation *now*.
And classical music involved improvisation back in the day. But
now, old classical music no longer involves improvisation!